NYU probably just became the most competitive MD school in the country

[7331poas]

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Nope. I'm going for a competitive specialty because I loved it and can see myself enjoying it for years to come. Had zero interest in primary care going into med school and my mind has not changed after my primary care rotation.

Having a full scholarship would, however, allow me to go into academics. And I would potentially consider gen surg (academic gen surg programs have 2 years of research built in. I wouldn't mind an extra 2 years if I had no debt, but no way am I doing that while interest accrues on my loans).

Why? Your payments are income driven during residency. And you can have your debt forgiven 3-4 years following residency.

Overall this NYU decision just makes rich New Yorkers even more wealthy. I am neutral to it. Make it need-based. These kids with doctor/lawyer/engineer parents don't need more help.

 

[anbuitachi]

Why? Your payments are income driven during residency. And you can have your debt forgiven 3-4 years following residency.

Overall this NYU decision just makes rich New Yorkers even more wealthy. I am neutral to it. Make it need-based. These kids with doctor/lawyer/engineer parents don't need more help.

I grew up in a poor family and do not agree with this. Dont punish kids for their parents. You are assuming their parents are willing to pay for their med school which many are not.

 

[PickleRick19]

Like I've said before, I feel like tuition, scholarships, etc are just drops in an ocean in terms of budging student interest in primary care (ie they won't really budge it noticeably). People who truly want to go into a field will go into it no matter what. I feel like the only real way to spark interest in primary care is out of the hands of any school (besides giving students more or better exposure to it) and more on the culture of medicine in the U.S. It starts with closing the massive wage gap between primary care and specialists, and shifting away from that specialist bias that you see more heavily in the east coast than west coast. That's embedded in our health care system and not really something schools can control.

 

[7331poas]

You still have interest on the loans with income based, so my loans will either grow or stay at the same level (unless I go into a field that allows moonlighting). I don't expect loan forgiveness to be a viable option when I finish

Your loans grow, however if you take a payment plan your costs are still income driven.

Why do you not consider loan forgiveness a viable option?

 

[7331poas]

I grew up in a poor family and do not agree with this. Dont punish kids for their parents. You are assuming their parents are willing to pay for their med school which many are not.

It has nothing to do with parental contribution. It has to do with kids who were given everything in life to get an acceptance. Whether they get family support for tuition is irrelevant at that point.

 

[Oh_Gee]

An apartment in Manhattan for a year is still more than my entire yearly cost of attendance...

how much is that?

 

[Wilf]

It has nothing to do with parental contribution. It has to do with kids who were given everything in life to get an acceptance. Whether they get family support for tuition is irrelevant at that point.

What does “given everything in life to get an acceptance” mean?

 

[anbuitachi]

It has nothing to do with parental contribution. It has to do with kids who were given everything in life to get an acceptance. Whether they get family support for tuition is irrelevant at that point.

What does “given everything in life to get an acceptance” mean?

That's just a random assumption. Like Wilf asks, what does that even mean. It's all relative. A family making 100k may seem rich to the 50k household, but poor to the 200k household. Where are you going to draw the line. And a 100k family's life style in NYC is like a 40k income in nebraska

how much is that?

You can rent a place for not too much (<2k per person) in manhattan if you live with a roommate or share a 2 bedroom with another person.

 

[aldol16]

Why do you not consider loan forgiveness a viable option?

The Trump administration floated ideas about getting rid of it and there have been many speedbumps with it so far. If you've kept up with it, you'll know that there were many requirements that were not well worded and people were getting screwed because they didn't do one or two little things right.

 

[PickleRick19]

The Trump administration floated ideas about getting rid of it and there have been many speedbumps with it so far. If you've kept up with it, you'll know that there were many requirements that were not well worded and people were getting screwed because they didn't do one or two little things right.

If the Trump budget even goes through, it would only apply to loans taken out after some point in 2019. All loans taken out prior to that would be grandfathered in and would still qualify for loan forgiveness after 10 years. Current M3s/M4 would be okay, maybe not so much M1s/M2s. But yeah if it did go through that would suck big time for upcoming classes.

 

[Oh_Gee]

That's just a random assumption. Like Wilf asks, what does that even mean. It's all relative. A family making 100k may seem rich to the 50k household, but poor to the 200k household. Where are you going to draw the line. And a 100k family's life style in NYC is like a 40k income in nebraska


You can rent a place for not too much (<2k per person) in manhattan if you live with a roommate or share a 2 bedroom with another person.

is that for a fairly decent place?

 

[whoknows2012]

is that for a fairly decent place?

A true two bedroom in a nice building (elevator doorman high rise) will run at least 5000/mo if not closer to 6. A 2 bedroom in a walk up/elevator building no doorman smaller apt could be ~4000/Mo (2000 or so per person. I had a great deal in med school on the upper east side. A 1br 2 bath “junior 4” (~1100 sq ft) which we converted to 3 bedroom (and still a large living room) with false walls was 1200 per person in a nice doorman elevator building with a gym and rooftop. Those are out there but hard to find.

These are all in desirable locations. If you’re willing to live in a less desirable part of manhattan it is significantly cheaper, ie Harlem (above 96th st)

 

[NurWollen]

Time will tell if NYU starts producing more primary care doctors. I imagine there will be some increase but many will still be drawn to subspecialties.

I think there will most definitely be an increase in the number of NYU students who pursue academics. I'm sure NYU is counting on this. They stand to gain quite a bit of prestige from this.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[Psai]

You guys are really crapping up this thread

 

[Treebeard]

I highly doubt this will create a meaningful number of additional PCPs coming out of NYU. Sure, some will say without debt they don't mind the lower salary, but others will say without debt they don't mind super long sub-sub-speciality training (neurosurg, for example), and others just don't like primary care and won't do it regardless.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I'm not sure what perspectives people are coming from with their thoughts, but I think this does accomplish more than just giving "rich kids" a break.


From my perspective as a nontrad who came from a single parent family where money was always tight, this accomplishes a few things:

It allows people to apply to med school who are passionate about medical school, but terrified of the debt. Yeah, those people are out there. I was one of them and talked myself out of it for years because that was just an incomprehensible amount of debt when you have a background where forking over $10 hurts. I know other people who I thought would make great doctors who went other directions because of the debt.

Recruiting from lower SES ranges could cause a slight shift in numbers to primary care, people serving high needs areas, or to earning specialties. People who grew up in high need areas are more likely to go back to those after finishing medical training.

I do think this will influence specialty choice. I don't think there's going to be a dramatic shift to primary care, but I think there will be a bit of one. I don't think it's as neat and tidy a problem like some here have suggested where it's primary care for $200k vs ortho surgeon for $500k. Not everyone with a 250 step wants to specialize. There are also people, and they've posted on SDN about this, deciding between fields where they have an interest in both. The posts are, "I'm really interested in peds, but i'll have $400k in debt by the time I'm done so I'm going with anesthesiology instead since i'm also kind of interested in that". As @WedgeDawg noted, it gives people freedom.

It will probably also shift a few more to research/academics as well.

Freedom of choice is pretty powerful. I wonder if it would help with other things like specialty satisfaction numbers or burnout rates knowing you aren't trapped/buried in debt if you don't like what you're doing?

 

[aldol16]

If the Trump budget even goes through, it would only apply to loans taken out after some point in 2019. All loans taken out prior to that would be grandfathered in and would still qualify for loan forgiveness after 10 years. Current M3s/M4 would be okay, maybe not so much M1s/M2s. But yeah if it did go through that would suck big time for upcoming classes.

Yes but couple that with uncertainty about current loans and you have a big problem waiting to happen. The first cohort of people are just now starting to get forgiven. Program was started in '07 so we're just hitting that stage where people have made their payments for 10 years. There just isn't enough data out there to know how the Dept. of Education is going to handle this, especially given the current upheaval. There are so many requirements and checkboxes that it's dizzying.

Panicked Borrowers, and the Education Department’s Unsettling Silence

 

[PickleRick19]

Yes but couple that with uncertainty about current loans and you have a big problem waiting to happen. The first cohort of people are just now starting to get forgiven. Program was started in '07 so we're just hitting that stage where people have made their payments for 10 years. There just isn't enough data out there to know how the Dept. of Education is going to handle this, especially given the current upheaval. There are so many requirements and checkboxes that it's dizzying.

Panicked Borrowers, and the Education Department’s Unsettling Silence

True, and yeah I saw that, kinda scary. I think the problem is people don't know to consolidate their loans into one direct loan (which we all should do upon graduation), they don't know to submit paperwork yearly, and they don't know if their employer qualifies as "non-profit" in the 501(c)3 category. Not their fault really, they were misinformed by their loan servicers. We should be good since most hospitals fall under that category, and as long as you don't work for a private group you're good. I don't think they'll get rid of it completely and unexpectedly, or there'll be a sheitstorm. I guess the best we can do is try to check all the right boxes and hope for the best after 10 years

 

[aldol16]

True, and yeah I saw that, kinda scary. I think the problem is people don't know to consolidate their loans into one direct loan (which we all should do upon graduation), and they don't know if their employer qualifies as "non-profit" in the 501(c)3 category. We should be good since most hospitals fall under that category, and as long as you don't work for a private group you're good. I guess the best we can do is try to check all the right boxes and hope for the best after 10 years

Yeah but the not working for a group and working for a hospital is a bigger sell than it appears. Personally, I know I want to go into private group practice or at least a staff model system. A lot of my classmates are the same.

 

[PickleRick19]

Yeah but the not working for a group and working for a hospital is a bigger sell than it appears. Personally, I know I want to go into private group practice or at least a staff model system. A lot of my classmates are the same.

Fair point. I guess I'm really left without an option since I'm doing primary care so I almost have to try loan forgiveness. Unless I find a private practice group where the FM docs make $300-500k (which is possible, but not the norm). The whole point of me doing FM was that I didn't care about the money, but yeah, it's still hard to ignore the debt. So I can see why others would be scared to venture into pure FM/IM with huge debt

 

[aldol16]

Fair point. I guess I'm really left without an option since I'm doing primary care so I almost have to try loan forgiveness. Unless I find a private practice group where the FM docs make $300-500k (which is possible, but not the norm). The whole point of me doing FM was that I didn't care about the money, but yeah, it's still hard to ignore the debt. So I can see why others would be scared to venture into pure FM/IM with huge debt

Yeah, that is definitely not the norm. Have you seen the MDMA compensation data? The median for family practice never goes above $300k even with 23+ years of experience. If you're at the 75th percentile of family practitioners, you'll get to the $300k mark after more than a decade in practice. I agree - it's dismal. Unless you're going to a great school and do concierge medicine, it's unlikely to be making $300k a year which makes the loan forgiveness program even more important.

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

*submits app to NYU*

 

[ChiDO]

Definitely became the most competitive school in the US. Free tuition is a game changer. Hopefully this causes the rest of medical schools to cut tuition or offer free rides. There should be no reason to choose another school if your debt will be $50k or more.

When you are post residency and you look back and realize no one cares you spent $250k to go to prestigious school X vs state school Y when you are job searching. Furthermore, you can achieve financial independence sooner of you don't have mounds of student debt.

 

[takeurmeds02]

NYU is going to be full of a bunch of weirdo's unless they go with some students with an extensive background in the arts- you essentially have to be perfect academically and in other ways that matter for applying. To be perfect on those fronts, you are typically socially deficient lmao

 

[Psai]

NYU is going to be full of a bunch of weirdo's unless they go with some students with an extensive background in the arts- you essentially have to be perfect academically and in other ways that matter for applying. To be perfect on those fronts, you are typically socially deficient lmao

Spoken like a true hater

Everyone always trying to bring down the cream but we ain't falling for it here. Hope it made you feel better about yourself.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Don’t be naive. Someone always profits.

 

[Lucca]

Don’t be naive. Someone always profits.

Yah, the financial planners investing that sweet 450 million dollar endowment...but also hundreds of people gets free school so /shrug better than the alternative

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Definitely became the most competitive school in the US. Free tuition is a game changer. Hopefully this causes the rest of medical schools to cut tuition or offer free rides. There should be no reason to choose another school if your debt will be $50k or more.

When you are post residency and you look back and realize no one cares you spent $250k to go to prestigious school X vs state school Y when you are job searching. Furthermore, you can achieve financial independence sooner of you don't have mounds of student debt.

Please, watch people come on here and ask if they should choose NYU or Harvard.

 

[justalittlestar]

Doesn't this mean competition is going to be even more intense in the admissions process? I love that NYU is changing the game like this though.

 

[twospadz]

Damn. I'm a current pgy 2 psych resident. During medical school I received a four year 75% tuition scholarship and even I'm kind of jealous of NYU med students at this point. This is definitely a low key slap in the face to almost all the medical schools out there in a good way. I'm sure conversations between med students and the administration at other med schools are awkward right about now. I understand loans was always a conscious issue in the minds of medical students but I'm glad there is more discussion and realization that tuition should not be the way it currently is. I hope you guys can slowly evoke change instead of just going along with the way things are like society raised you to be.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

is that for a fairly decent place?

Quality, yes. Square footage, eh, they’re ok.

 

[twospadz]

"Students will not have a totally free ride, however. According to The Wall Street Journal, most medical students will still foot the bill for about $29,000 each year in room, board and other living expenses. The scholarships will help 93 first-year students along with 350 already partially through the program, the Journal reports. "

NYU Medical School Plans Free Tuition For Those Studying To Be Doctors

Im sure room and board can be hassled for 18-20k a year if some students are savvy. 443 students x 55k tuition. Means NYU will be paying 22 million a year in tuition. That is pretty nuts

 

[Moose A Moose]

You’re all getting excited for what’s the start of the inevitable progression to full medical socialization.

Tuition is high because physicians in the states are well payed and can afford these loans. We’re becoming the European model of healthcare. If more schools follow suit, the government/insurance jockeys will not hesitate in dragging our compensation down into the abyss.

 

[RNthenDoc]

You’re all getting excited for what’s the start of the inevitable progression to full medical socialization.

Tuition is high because physicians in the states are well payed and can afford these loans. We’re becoming the European model of healthcare. If more schools follow suit, the government/insurance jockeys will not hesitate in dragging our compensation down into the abyss.

We all know it’s going to happen.

I’d prefer for them to pay for school *before* they halve reimbursements, though.

My fear is being caught in the donut... Graduating with a big price tag and then compensation slips to where my take-home is worse than blue-collar.

This has happened before.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

You’re all getting excited for what’s the start of the inevitable progression to full medical socialization.

Tuition is high because physicians in the states are well payed and can afford these loans. We’re becoming the European model of healthcare. If more schools follow suit, the government/insurance jockeys will not hesitate in dragging our compensation down into the abyss.

In the UK the cost of med school is significantly lower than it is here in the US, but so is their physician salary (this might also have something do with the fact that their healthcare system is completely different from ours). Even if all other med schools start following suit and start to offer free or lower tuition, physician salary will most likely decrease. My question for all of you is would you be happy with little to no tuition if it meant a lower salary (possibly significantly lower) or do you prefer the tuition situation now with the possibility of making bank, depending on your choice of specialty of course.

 

[Newyawk]

This cannot and will not be replicated anytime soon.
You people are acting as if NYU is just scratching tuition from the equation. They have the head of Home Depot and many other very wealthy people behind this, and even then it took them years and years of fundraising. How many other schools can do that?

 

[ed*26]

I doubt this'll make any significant change in students choosing primary care. In 2017 only 1 NYU student chose family medicine, and in other years there have been none. The Cleveland Clinic school has had tuition free for ~decade and their students certainly aren't turning out for family medicine. If you put a bunch of talented students in a research-intensive program situation in a highly specialized hospital and tell them they can do anything, it's not a surprise that most will turn out to be specialists.

 

[radsisrad]

You’re all getting excited for what’s the start of the inevitable progression to full medical socialization.

Tuition is high because physicians in the states are well payed and can afford these loans. We’re becoming the European model of healthcare. If more schools follow suit, the government/insurance jockeys will not hesitate in dragging our compensation down into the abyss.

This was one of my initial reactions to the news yesterday. While I don't think most other schools have the kinds of endowments that make this move possible, if the trend does spread to a number of other schools - thereby reducing average MD debt - there will be a definite perception that reimbursement cuts are justified.

 

[RNthenDoc]

This sort of thing isn’t going to keep coming from private money... it’s going to be socialized (for better or worse).

 

[solitarius]

I doubt NYU will use their resources to train PCPs.

They're clearly gunning after HMS / JHU type recruits.

Also noticed that their scholarship doesn't cover cost of living in NYC.

 

[evilbooyaa]

This was one of my initial reactions to the news yesterday. While I don't think most other schools have the kinds of endowments that make this move possible, if the trend does spread to a number of other schools - thereby reducing average MD debt - there will be a definite perception that reimbursement cuts are justified.

But it's definitely much better for it to happen THIS way than the opposite way - where deep reimbursement cuts are made prior to anybody reaping the benefits of a free medical education.

Because one school got rid of tuition is not going to change the slope for reimbursement cuts in this country. It would take multiple schools, arguably most of the country, to really change the slope (and make it say, tilt down more). The time it will take to do that means that every current medical student will have finished residency and be making bank as an attending.

If it does happen across the country, maybe in 20-30 years we'd look more like Europe in terms of physician reimbursement.

 

[Frogger27]

But it's definitely much better for it to happen THIS way than the opposite way - where deep reimbursement cuts are made prior to anybody reaping the benefits of a free medical education.

Because one school got rid of tuition is not going to change the slope for reimbursement cuts in this country. It would take multiple schools, arguably most of the country, to really change the slope (and make it say, tilt down more). The time it will take to do that means that every current medical student will have finished residency and be making bank as an attending.

If it does happen across the country, maybe in 20-30 years we'd look more like Europe in terms of physician reimbursement.

Hopefully retire just in time to miss this future of medicine

 

[Goro]

You’re all getting excited for what’s the start of the inevitable progression to full medical socialization.
Tuition is high because physicians in the states are well payed and can afford these loans. We’re becoming the European model of healthcare. If more schools follow suit, the government/insurance jockeys will not hesitate in dragging our compensation down into the abyss.

How you're getting from A---> B with this logic is beyond me.

This cannot and will not be replicated anytime soon.
You people are acting as if NYU is just scratching tuition from the equation. They have the head of Home Depot and many other very wealthy people behind this, and even then it took them years and years of fundraising. How many other schools can do that?

Yawkie is spot on here. Offhand, only Harvard and Stanford come to mind for schools with $8-figure endowments that can pull this off.

States might be able to do this for their state schools, but I can't see it happening for all four years' worth of classes, and not with all 40+ states that have med schools.

I doubt NYU will use their resources to train PCPs.
They're clearly gunning after HMS / JHU type recruits.
Also noticed that their scholarship doesn't cover cost of living in NYC.

Agree 100% with the bold. Whether or not those Harvard/JHU types will now be more interested in PC is a huge black box, and we won't know the answer until 2023!
Agree with the COI issue as well, but the cost of an NYU education overall still went down by some 50%. That's not chump change. Find a room mate and your rent gets cut in half too, right?

How many people with a 3.9+ GPA and a 519+ MCAT got into med school overall last year?

 

[wholeheartedly]

I doubt this'll make any significant change in students choosing primary care. In 2017 only 1 NYU student chose family medicine, and in other years there have been none. The Cleveland Clinic school has had tuition free for ~decade and their students certainly aren't turning out for family medicine. If you put a bunch of talented students in a research-intensive program situation in a highly specialized hospital and tell them they can do anything, it's not a surprise that most will turn out to be specialists.

Um, you can't really use CCLCM in this discussion. Of course they aren't turning out for Family Med there. The school's mission is to recruit and train people to go into clinical research careers. Their whole curriculum is uniquely designed for this purpose.

 

[karayaa]

There's no evidence to suggest that this will influence doctors to go into primary care. They very well might go into primary care residencies (IM, peds, etc) and NYU might brag about that, but it's hard to track where they go after that and where they actually work.
People will go into primary care because they like it. With debt repayment programs, debt doesn't hold people back. Even academics qualifies for PSLF.
Look at Cleveland Clinic Lerner COM. They're tuition-free specifically to incentivize academic/research careers. Does anyone track their grads and where they end up?
Just thinking about academic careers, there are so many factors that influence people to stay in as a career. Grant funding is a big factor. Residents and fellows apply for training grants, and if they don't get them, they often leave academics and move on to something else.

 

[Goro]

There's no evidence to suggest that this will influence doctors to go into primary care. They very well might go into primary care residencies (IM, peds, etc) and NYU might brag about that, but it's hard to track where they go after that and where they actually work.
People will go into primary care because they like it. With debt repayment programs, debt doesn't hold people back. Even academics qualifies for PSLF.
Look at Cleveland Clinic Lerner COM. They're tuition-free specifically to incentivize academic/research careers. Does anyone track their grads and where they end up?
Just thinking about academic careers, there are so many factors that influence people to stay in as a career. Grant funding is a big factor. Residents and fellows apply for training grants, and if they don't get them, they often leave academics and move on to something else.

Schools are actually pretty good at keeping track of their alumni (after all, they want to hit you up for donations).
But agreed; this is an experiment whose results we won't see until 2023.

 

[takeurmeds02]

Spoken like a true hater

Everyone always trying to bring down the cream but we ain't falling for it here. Hope it made you feel better about yourself.

You could've inserted whichever US allo school of your choice and I would've had the same comment lol. We all have our shortcomings; the brainiacs just turn out to be the weird kids. Sorry if I hit too close to home.

 

[iqe2010]

Somebody correct me if Im wrong but isn't the first class at the new university of Houston medical school also going to have free tuition?

 

[karayaa]

Somebody correct me if Im wrong but isn't the first class at the new university of Houston medical school also going to have free tuition?

I don't know about this school, but it's common for new med schools to offer discounts like this. They typically don't last

 

[Goro]

Somebody correct me if Im wrong but isn't the first class at the new university of Houston medical school also going to have free tuition?

I don't know about this school, but it's common for new med schools to offer discounts like this. They typically don't last

Was true for UNLV, and I think U ILL Carle