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Had to check to make sure it wasn't April. Best of luck to anyone who gets accepted, and hopefully they can pay it forward!
Harvard Medical School vs NYU Medical school (with free tuition).... I think the obvious and clear choice would be NYU.
Pretty sure 99% of people would choose NYU. Guess Christmas came early this year for some.Idk, I'm sure there's plenty of people who wouldn't be able to say no to the name Harvard. For me though I agree it would be an easy decision with NYU. Really, almost any school on my list that gave me a full ride would be an easy decision.
Pretty sure 99% of people would choose NYU. Guess Christmas came early this year for some.
Yea, it's interesting that CCLCM doesn't have anyone going into FM!
CCLCM Class of 2018 Match Results
I agree that NYU is better known for the university name recognition, but I disagree with your implication that it's not a "really top school." Honestly a lot of this is CCLCM's own fault for almost intentionally hiding its program, but if you take a closer look their students match like a top 5 medical school (I would argue stronger than NYU). Not to mention it's affiliated with the #2 hospital in the country. None of this is to discredit NYU, but they simply weren't first.
But also, this idea that reducing cost of medical education will magically encourage people to pursue primary care is a joke. The only way to encourage people to go into primary care is to make it a more compelling proposition (better lifestyle, compensation, etc). You can see it in CCLCM's match list and no doubt NYU's match list will be specialty heavy for years to come.
I don't think CCLCM is the best comparison as it is basically a program that is in-between a traditional MD and a MSTP MD/PhD. Its mission is to produce physician-scientists and physician-investigators. NYU's mission is to produce physicians. Obviously I am somewhat generalizing as many NYU grads are probably headed down a heavy research path. But pretty much all of CCLCM's grads are going down the research path long term. With that in consideration, it kinda makes sense that CCLCM doesn't have anybody matching primary care.
You guys are also severely underestimating Harvard (and other top schools for that matter) in giving aid. After this, COA will only lower at other top schools. They simply have no choice but to compete otherwise they risk losing top applicants...such is the beauty of capitalism and competitive markets.
That's a fair point -- CCLCM is certainly a more niche program, but it's still a MD program (not a dual-degree program) whose goal seems to be to train clinicians who are good investigators as opposed to researchers who happen to be clinicians (like MSTP). That's why I think it's a fair comparison to make, especially since it is associated with a clinical powerhouse (CCF) and because NYU is very a much an academic-focused medical school whose graduates will be pursuing similar career paths.I don't think CCLCM is the best comparison as it is basically a program that is in-between a traditional MD and a MSTP MD/PhD. Its mission is to produce physician-scientists and physician-investigators. NYU's mission is to produce physicians. Obviously I am somewhat generalizing as many NYU grads are probably headed down a heavy research path. But pretty much all of CCLCM's grads are going down the research path long term. With that in consideration, it kinda makes sense that CCLCM doesn't have anybody matching primary care.
That's a fair point -- CCLCM is certainly a more niche program, but it's still a MD program (not a dual-degree program) whose goal seems to be to train clinicians who are good investigators as opposed to researchers who happen to be clinicians (like MSTP). That's why I think it's a fair comparison to make, especially since it is associated with a clinical powerhouse (CCF) and because NYU is very a much an academic-focused medical school whose graduates will be pursuing similar career paths.
I am also very skeptical of this dramatically changing the landscape of medical education financing. Perhaps other schools will try to compete, but the reality is there are already many schools who flat out refuse to match scholarships from other institutions regardless of their pedigree (Yale comes to mind). I very much doubt Harvard will have any difficulty recruiting top students for full-price regardless of what NYU does with their tuition. And this isn't just because people value lay prestige more than they should; it's because another top medical school has been doing this for a decade and it hasn't dramatically reshaped the landscape. Though it could be argued it has led to the gradual change of more generous scholarships that we are seeing over time.
That's a fair point -- CCLCM is certainly a more niche program, but it's still a MD program (not a dual-degree program) whose goal seems to be to train clinicians who are good investigators as opposed to researchers who happen to be clinicians (like MSTP). That's why I think it's a fair comparison to make, especially since it is associated with a clinical powerhouse (CCF) and because NYU is very a much an academic-focused medical school whose graduates will be pursuing similar career paths.
CCLCM has a class size of 32 so it's limited in its ability to snatch top applicants from the waiting jaws of Harvard/Hopkins/Stanford. It's also in Cleveland.
If you of their caliber, then by all means go for it. U Penn will take you if NYU won'tstats wise I am at their level and I have very good service with underserved and tons of research although I am very average (I was told in the past by you and LizzyM that I have the minimum amount that is considered okay) when it comes to clinical volunteering/shadowing
tbh though, now that they are giving full rides to everyone Im guessing it'll get even more competitive so not sure how much of a chance I'll have but it's worth a shot to spend the extra 40 dollars now
on that note my bank account is looking very sad right now, I have now applied to 4 more schools than i intended initially although having FAP has helped a ton, luckily I got a job that pays more for the upcoming semester to make up for it haha
Idk, I'm sure there's plenty of people who wouldn't be able to say no to the name Harvard. For me though I agree it would be an easy decision with NYU. Really, almost any school on my list that gave me a full ride would be an easy decision.
Pretty sure 99% of people would choose NYU. Guess Christmas came early this year for some.
CCLCM has a class size of 32 so it's limited in its ability to snatch top applicants from the waiting jaws of Harvard/Hopkins/Stanford. It's also in Cleveland.
NYU has a class size of 132 and is based in the far more desirable location of New York City. It is also ranked far more highly than CCLCM. Further, NYU appeals to applicants who don't want academic medicine as a career; CCLCM doesn't have that same pull.
That's a fair point -- CCLCM is certainly a more niche program, but it's still a MD program (not a dual-degree program) whose goal seems to be to train clinicians who are good investigators as opposed to researchers who happen to be clinicians (like MSTP). That's why I think it's a fair comparison to make, especially since it is associated with a clinical powerhouse (CCF) and because NYU is very a much an academic-focused medical school whose graduates will be pursuing similar career paths.
I am also very skeptical of this dramatically changing the landscape of medical education financing. Perhaps other schools will try to compete, but the reality is there are already many schools who flat out refuse to match scholarships from other institutions regardless of their pedigree (Yale comes to mind). I very much doubt Harvard will have any difficulty recruiting top students for full-price regardless of what NYU does with their tuition. And this isn't just because people value lay prestige more than they should; it's because another top medical school has been doing this for a decade and it hasn't dramatically reshaped the landscape. Though it could be argued it has led to the gradual change of more generous scholarships that we are seeing over time.
CCLCM has a class size of 32 so it's limited in its ability to snatch top applicants from the waiting jaws of Harvard/Hopkins/Stanford. It's also in Cleveland.
NYU has a class size of 132 and is based in the far more desirable location of New York City. It is also ranked far more highly than CCLCM. Further, NYU appeals to applicants who don't want academic medicine as a career; CCLCM doesn't have that same pull.
Lol CCLCM isn’t even ranked by US News, and NYU wasn’t even in the top 10 until this year. What are you talking about? They are peer institutions by any measure — match lists, stats, academic pedigree, etc. Location has no bearing on school caliber. And CCLCM’s associated hospital is far more highly ranked than NYU’s hospital.
I do agree that NYU is more broadly appealing to students not interested in academics. But frankly these top schools funnel most of their grads into academics anyway.
I was accepted to both NYU and Stanford last cycle (and HMS too for what its worth). While both are great schools and this will absolutely help NYU's yield rate, I don't really think this would have changed my decision personally. The difference in COA between the two schools even with full tuition at NYU would have ended up being < $100k (instead of NYU being considerably more expensive), and based on what I was personally looking for and my impressions of both schools (which again, are still both absolutely amazing schools), this would still have been an acceptable premium to attend the school I really ended up being sold on and felt I would be the most happy at. It would definitely have made the decision closer, but I think people are also overestimating how much this news would have changed the decisions of many people who took acceptances at HMS/Stanford/JHU/Penn w/o full tuition etc. over NYU last cycle.
This is an important point that I think is missed by many on this thread. Factors other than money are deciding factors here for students at these schools, especially since these same students are likely getting similar scholarships to attend the other schools.
pretty much. Data shows that after 500 MCAT majority of people pass med school fine. Stat inflation is not a reflection of anything besides supply and demand. Schools can demand stupid high stats just because.
Sounds like you have a rosy and unrealistic expectation of physicians! Not to mention the predictive power of MCAT/GPA.the thing is tho..i definitely want doctors that are more than "passed just fine".. i want more like "got A+ with ease" so they can actually spend time understanding the nuances of human body instead of being too exhausted to do anything after trying very hard just to memorize the facts in the books
I don’t disagree. I’m just pushing back on this notion that NYU is the first top tier school to do this when CCLCM has been doing it for a decade, and despite being a top school, hasn’t fundamentally changed the landscape of medical education financing.I think we all make some fair points but I argue strongly the fact that CCLCM is NOT a "normal" medical school. Even though it is a MD-only granting institution (though many of their students get an "auto" MS for the fifth year of full-time research) and so is NYU, they are not really comparable.
CCLCM is a small, very niche, specialized program that attracts a specific type of MD applicant (I would know, it is my top choice school and I have done in-depth research into the school and have concluded pretty clearly that its different than other schools, even top 20 or top 10). Sure NYU might also recruit a similar type of applicant (because of its status as a research powerhouse) but the fact remains that NYU also attracts a type of applicant that doesn't meet CCLCM's mission. To summarize: all CCLCM students can be NYU-material in terms of competitiveness, fit, future prospects, etc but not all NYU students can be CCLCM material.
That is why I think CCLCM isn't a good comparison for this recent financial move by NYU. CCLCM is too small, niche, and relatively unknown compared to NYU to be in the same category. NYU represents a high tier of a typical medical school; I don't think the CCLCM qualifies under the same category. NYU making education tuition-free is a HUGE step in my opinion, though I also have some reservations about how exactly it will affect the financial situation at top 10-20 schools.
At least I think those who are from a wealthy background (plenty of upper-middle class for top 20 schools) can afford to pay their tuitions.Only on SDN could a basically universally good thing — school taking away debt for hundreds of students and hundreds more to come — spark a debate lol
Lol, good one.More importantly, do y'all think US Snooze Rankings are gonna have NYU top Harvard?
I too underestimated NYU until they went from sub #10 to #3.Lol, good one.
After changing the methodology.I too underestimated NYU until they went from sub #10 to #3.
I think that may say more about the inadequacy of the old methodology than school. Clearly, if they felt the need to change the methodology, it wasn’t a proper reflection of the “reality” of medical school rankings. I’d trust the new rank over the old.After changing the methodology.
I think you are severely overestimating how many people get full rides or significant tuition discounts. To offer a full ride for all students, this is a game changer and a much needed one as tuition is out of control for medical schools. Taking out $250k and then go into low paying specialty while living in a hcol city is a death sentence.
Do you know if this funding includes a stipend and subsidized housing? If so, the impact of living in NYC would be largely mitigated.Within the realm of top tier schools, which NYU definitely belongs to lately and plans to firmly stay in, I disagree. Most of the people I talked to in my entering class received at least one full tuition (or close to it) scholarship somewhere. I received two (although not at the school I committed to).
At almost all of the very top tier schools, 20%~ of the entering class are routinely given full tuition scholarships. As I posted above, while the school I went to is need-based, the definition of "need" turned out to be much broader than I expected - Stanford gave full tuition scholarships to 22% of incoming students last year (actual statistic told to us), with everyone in the remaining 78% that qualified for $1 in aid getting anywhere from 1/3 tuition to 90% tuition (the max grant before full tuition). Schools that gave out merit aid like Penn also gave out a comparative number of purely merit-based full tuition scholarships (20%~), and also gave considerable need-based aid on top of this as well.
The COA at NYU used to astronomically high compared to other schools they now rank alongside on USNews. Here are the average indebtness of graduates at comparable schools as per USNews:
- Stanford: $96,327
- Harvard: $105,389
- JHU: $109,692
- Penn: $117,677
- UCSF: $138,024
- NYU: $171,908
NYU had to do something if they wanted to actually be competitive with those schools beyond how they appear on USNews. This definitely makes them, but even with full tuition the gap is still a lot closer than you might think. In addition to what other comparable schools already offer in terms of aid, NYU still is in NYC - I live in one of the most expensive places on earth (Palo Alto), and despite NYU heavily subsidizing housing for medical students, only pay half of what I would have had to pay in rent had I went to NYU instead.
I unquestionably think this is a huge deal and a great thing, and will affect people's decisions. At the same time though, I don't know if I would characterize it exactly as a game changer given the level of aid given out at other top tier schools, and feel people are somewhat overinflating the impact that this will have at these schools.
Do you know if this funding includes a stipend and subsidized housing? If so, the impact of living in NYC would be largely mitigated.
NYU has their own housing for medical students that they already subsidize by an incredible amount. Its not exactly what I would describe as nice and is 3 students per apartment, but is very cheap relative to normal NYC prices. However, it's still expensive relative to many other places - I don't even want to think about what housing would cost if you had to rent your own place in NYC to go there.
Sounds like you have a rosy and unrealistic expectation of physicians! Not to mention the predictive power of MCAT/GPA.
I always find it odd that this site plays such a huge emphasis on US News rankings, whose methodology gives stat-hungry schools a huge edge, but at the same time tries to advocate for less emphasis on having high stats for admission. I agree with you that the average MCAT score is probably sufficient to gauge who would be qualified to become an average physician, but the future leaders in medicine (e.g., research, policy, practice) are less likely to come from this average group.Looking back that was an embarrassing, poorly-executed statement i made so please allow me to try again and hopefully I can convey my point better this time
I agree an above average person can probably learn to work up chest pain "just fine" given proper training, heck an NP with an online degree can do it and if you run studies, many are already done, to evaluate the outcome; alas p<0.05, statistically comparable to physicians! But some schools expect more than that from their students, they hope some of their students can gain insights into the medical sciences and one day maybe produce some small advances, and we do as a society need some people to achieve this. I honestly would not expect those to be who complain about how hard orgo II is or struggle to grapple what the fourth question of each passage on MCAT is actually asking. Now, do we need the entire student body at all of the top20 medical schools to be at this level? probably not. And why does every top50 institution aspire to become a research powerhouse? I don't know. What I am sure is, high stats people have a meaningful niche in this ecosystem and some schools chase after them for legit reasons. Regarding MCAT score as pass/fail is rather ignorant and over-simplistic a view towards the complexity of science/medicine. Such views are counterproductive and in my opinion, echoes the dangerous trend of anti-intellectualism in American culture.
I know sdn isn't a political forum and the last sentence is quite out of place but I wanted to say it because it's really been bothering me and i feel some connection to the people on here.
Even better if this lead to ALL med schools having free tuition. Though the world will end before that happens.Best scenario, all top schools start to do 0 tuitions to compete with NYU.
imagine trying to convince California Northstate to waive their tuitionEven better if this lead to ALL med schools having free tuition. Though the world will end before that happens.
Just to preface: I think this is absolutely amazing news and I hope it starts a trend towards more schools acting the same way.
At the same time however, people are somewhat underestimating how much financial aid other "top" schools already give out. At my school (Stanford), any student that qualifies for $1 of financial aid has their parental contributions matched by the school up to to $21,000/year (1/3 tuition) automatically. On top of this, full-tuition scholarships are given to roughly 1/5 of the class based on need.
At Stanford specifically, every student also gets ~$65,000 in guaranteed funding to fund 5 quarters of research - you end up making considerable money if you do research over MS1 summer and your research year (or doing it part-time in-quarter), which again, helps defray tuition considerably. And on top of that, 50%+ of students end up TAing at some point, as the school purposely overpays medical students to give another opportunity to reduce COA - a 10 hour/week commitment (in reality, much less than that) gets you $11k a quarter ($44k/year). None of this is the same as full tuition for everyone (which is absolutely better), but it does close the gap significantly.
I was accepted to both NYU and Stanford last cycle (and HMS too for what its worth). While both are great schools and this will absolutely help NYU's yield rate, I don't really think this would have changed my decision personally. The difference in COA between the two schools even with full tuition at NYU would have ended up being < $100k (instead of NYU being considerably more expensive), and based on what I was personally looking for and my impressions of both schools (which again, are still both absolutely amazing schools), this would still have been an acceptable premium to attend the school I really ended up being sold on and felt I would be the most happy at. It would definitely have made the decision closer, but I think people are also overestimating how much this news would have changed the decisions of many people who took acceptances at HMS/Stanford/JHU/Penn w/o full tuition etc. over NYU last cycle.
imagine trying to convince California Northstate to waive their tuition
I think you are severely overestimating how many people get full rides or significant tuition discounts. To offer a full ride for all students, this is a game changer and a much needed one as tuition is out of control for medical schools. Taking out $250k and then go into low paying specialty while living in a hcol city is a death sentence.
why?with maybe the exception of Harvard
I'm personally not a fan of the excessive fetishization of Harvard's brand name, but it's hard to deny it exists and has a powerful influence on people's decision-making process.why?
Yeah - even a 4.0/525 double major in biomedical engineering and astrophysics with Peace Corps service and two first author papers might have a tough time, no?Literally a 100th percentile MCAT(average is 521) and a 4.0 (median is 3.92)
What is an "NYU caliber app"? I have heard that it is a cut above even a Harvard caliber app: 3.9+/523+, preferably 525+, with insane, out-of-this-world ECs like Olympic medalist, combat veteran, or first-author Nature/Science/Cell paper?Do you have an NYU caliber app? If not, they don't need the money. Take your SO out for dinner instead.
What stats/ECs did you have? Of course you had 3.9+/523+, maybe from a big-name school...but what were your ECs like? Peace Corps or military service? First-author paper, maybe in a big journal like Nature/Science/Cell? Unusual life story...like daughter of Kyrgyzstani yak herders, or Chechen refugee, or Paralympic gold medalist?