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Hey guys,
Can anyone give me objective pros and cons of both programs?
Thanks
Can anyone give me objective pros and cons of both programs?
Thanks
NYU v. Mt.Sinai
- Thread starter sb500
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From talking to the PD at my school: he said that NYU has the better name and better training, but is a tough environment to work in. Mt Sinai is much friendlier, but a little less prestigious.
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
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I disagree...
I think what you are saying is true for med school, but not for residency.
Just compare the fellowship match lists, especially in the more competetive fields like cards.
NYU Cards 2005:
Upitt
North shore
North shore
North shore
NYMC
NYMC
MSSM cards 2005
NYU
Sinai
Sinai
Sinai
Sinai
U. Washington
NYU had no matches at top places and, more suprisingly, no matches at NYU! Sinai had more matches at NYU than NYU did, and even had a match at a nationally ranked program (UW).
Plus, Sinai is a regional leader (best in NYC) in liver disease, liver transplant, GI, and geriatrics. NYU is not a leader in anything.
I think what you are saying is true for med school, but not for residency.
Just compare the fellowship match lists, especially in the more competetive fields like cards.
NYU Cards 2005:
Upitt
North shore
North shore
North shore
NYMC
NYMC
MSSM cards 2005
NYU
Sinai
Sinai
Sinai
Sinai
U. Washington
NYU had no matches at top places and, more suprisingly, no matches at NYU! Sinai had more matches at NYU than NYU did, and even had a match at a nationally ranked program (UW).
Plus, Sinai is a regional leader (best in NYC) in liver disease, liver transplant, GI, and geriatrics. NYU is not a leader in anything.
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I agree - I've been under the impression that medicine at Sinai has a better reputation and is more competitive than medicine at NYU. I've been told by some that regionally (at least within Manhattan), the Sinai's got a better reputation than both Cornell and NYU - and in a city full of so many fellowship opportunities, that counts for a lot.
But, I really think both are great programs, with their own merits:
NYU - Incredible medical center with three great and very different facilities sitting side-by-side, including Bellevue, which is pretty awesome. Located near the lower east side, which is a great neighborhood. New, very energetic program director, who might bring some good changes - apparently the schedules already been changed to better comply with work hours.
Sinai - As above, better reputation. Great hospital with a good mix of tertiary care and community care. Also, great PD who seems to have a reputation for really looking out for the house staff. Overall, people seem to feel that the program is very balanced and the house staff is happy.
Anyways, a lot of rumor and hearsay, but I hope this helps...
But, I really think both are great programs, with their own merits:
NYU - Incredible medical center with three great and very different facilities sitting side-by-side, including Bellevue, which is pretty awesome. Located near the lower east side, which is a great neighborhood. New, very energetic program director, who might bring some good changes - apparently the schedules already been changed to better comply with work hours.
Sinai - As above, better reputation. Great hospital with a good mix of tertiary care and community care. Also, great PD who seems to have a reputation for really looking out for the house staff. Overall, people seem to feel that the program is very balanced and the house staff is happy.
Anyways, a lot of rumor and hearsay, but I hope this helps...
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NYU or Mt. Sinai...that is the question.
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I think you are looking at "inbreeding" all wrong. Forget what it means to the program (not much diversity in fellows), but rather what it means for YOU as the applicant. The lists tell me that if I go to Sinai, AT THE VERY LEAST, I will get a spot at Sinai for cards-a very respectable program. What can I hope for if I go to NYU... a spot at North Shore? What a terrible disadvantage to go to a residency knowing that I can't even count on my home program come fellowship time.
And by the way, when St. Vincents matches their own, you look around and realize that...uh...well you're at St. Vincents. Most people would be very happy to be almost secured a spot at Sinai for cards, but the same is not true for Vinny's.
Also, 2 years ago, MGH matched 4/6 at MGH. I am by no means comparing Sinai to MGH, but sometimes people CHOOSE to stay in their own program because of their own preference. Plus, the fact that someone matched at UW means that there is potential for an upgrade. But the same logic cannot be used for NYU, because EVERYONE matched at places of worse caliber. And there is no way that of the 6 people, 5 of them wanted to go to NYMC and North Shore (vastly inferior programs, but still in NY) over their home program.
It all adds up to much more career security at Sinai. And I have no idea what "better experience" at NYU is referring to.
And by the way, when St. Vincents matches their own, you look around and realize that...uh...well you're at St. Vincents. Most people would be very happy to be almost secured a spot at Sinai for cards, but the same is not true for Vinny's.
Also, 2 years ago, MGH matched 4/6 at MGH. I am by no means comparing Sinai to MGH, but sometimes people CHOOSE to stay in their own program because of their own preference. Plus, the fact that someone matched at UW means that there is potential for an upgrade. But the same logic cannot be used for NYU, because EVERYONE matched at places of worse caliber. And there is no way that of the 6 people, 5 of them wanted to go to NYMC and North Shore (vastly inferior programs, but still in NY) over their home program.
It all adds up to much more career security at Sinai. And I have no idea what "better experience" at NYU is referring to.
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If you look at the numbers, between 2003 and 2005, Sinai placed 20 people in cards if you include research spots at places like Columbia.. They placed at Mount Sinai (7), Columbia (2), NYU (2), U. Washington (1), Sinai/Elmhurst (2), Beth Israel (2), Westchester (1), U. Maryland (1), UCLA Harbor (1), Montefiore (1).
NYU between '03 and '05 placed 22 people, including Columbia (1), Cornell (2), U. Pitt (3), Georgetown (1), Montefiore (1), North Shore (5), NYU (2), Beth Israel (2), Westchester (2), Robert Wood (1), Thomas Jefferson (1), St. Luke's (1).
So they are about equal. No?
NYU between '03 and '05 placed 22 people, including Columbia (1), Cornell (2), U. Pitt (3), Georgetown (1), Montefiore (1), North Shore (5), NYU (2), Beth Israel (2), Westchester (2), Robert Wood (1), Thomas Jefferson (1), St. Luke's (1).
So they are about equal. No?
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Damn, the boards are heating up at SDN 🙂
So, I haven't poured over the fellowship placement lists as meticulously as y'all, and maybe I'm missing something, but I think it's important to remember that the NYU medicine program is larger than the Sinai program, so comparing the absolute number of fellows placed is a little problematic. If you knew the number of applicants that failed to match each year, the comparison would be easier. Also, I think that it's easy to read too much into these numbers - with such a small sample size (20+ over 3 yrs), you can get random blips that really play with the numbers (e.g. last yr at program X the number of residents applying to cards doubled as compared to the usual)...
So, I haven't poured over the fellowship placement lists as meticulously as y'all, and maybe I'm missing something, but I think it's important to remember that the NYU medicine program is larger than the Sinai program, so comparing the absolute number of fellows placed is a little problematic. If you knew the number of applicants that failed to match each year, the comparison would be easier. Also, I think that it's easy to read too much into these numbers - with such a small sample size (20+ over 3 yrs), you can get random blips that really play with the numbers (e.g. last yr at program X the number of residents applying to cards doubled as compared to the usual)...
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Wow, you're taking this kinda personally...
"we make $5,000-6,000/yr or $16,000 over 3 years more"
The we in your quote explains alot...it sounds like you are from NYU and are unable to be objective.
First of all, I agree with the last poster that absolute numbe of cardiology placements means almost nothing, especially when the difference between the two is so small.
Second, I am not comparing the NYU residency experience to the Sinai residency experience...this is an impossible comparison. I am comparing the career opportunities available from each program, which I think is superior at Sinai. You told me yourself that the new cards chairman doesn't like to take NYU residents. So, if I am lucky and do really well in residency, then I have a very small chance to go to Cornell or Columbia (3 in the last 3 years). Otherwise, from the list, it looks like I will be going to North Shore. On the other hand, if I go to Sinai, from the list, it looks like if I am even an average resident I can stay at Sinai. Now, I agree that North Shore is a fine program, but you can't possibly tell me that it is as reputable as Sinai for cards. Sinai is by no means a national leader, but it is very reputable headed by the famous Valentin Fuster. So, like I said, your CAREER opportunties are more SECURE coming Sinai.
As far as Bellevue is concerned. Sure you get great clinical experience, while doing all your own blood draws and transporting all of your own patients, etc. Sinai has a similar experience at Elmhurst. Sure, more people have heard of Bellevue, but do you really think that Bellevue's "best clinical experience" trains better doctors than Sinai or Columbia. Thats kind of arrogant. In the end, as long as your not going to one of "The Big 4", you are going to get pretty similar training and be a fine doctor. I think it is a little foolhearted to say that you will be a better-trained MD coming out of NYU.
And as far as Bellevue's "national reputation", it is still a city hospital. No one goes to UCSF to work at SFGH, which is probably the most renowned city hospital in the country (and also has the highest NIH funding, if you like objective measurements of success). You go to UCSF for UCSF. Remember, the way you judge national reputation, objectively, is by NIH funding and fellowship match list. You can tell me that Bellevue has a better national rep than Sinai all you want, but the fact is come fellowship time, Sinai sets you up a little better because they take their own. That takes alot of the pressure off.
Now all that is just talking about cards...what about GI, or liver transplant, or geriatrics all of which Sinai are the best in NYC and just behind places like MGH and Hopkins. If you want to go into GI, you can go to Sinai for residency (an ok rep) and then have a huge advantage at Sinai's GI program (an amazing rep).
Finally, what exactly do you mean by "if you look at the list of my interviews you would be amazed"? Are you patting yourself on the back for all the great interviews you received? If so, do you really think that I will be impressed over that list? Do you know me...maybe my list is better, maybe its worse...the point is what in gods name does that have to do with anything. You got very personal very quickly, and even tried to attack me in your last paragraph. I am just stating the facts here.
"we make $5,000-6,000/yr or $16,000 over 3 years more"
The we in your quote explains alot...it sounds like you are from NYU and are unable to be objective.
First of all, I agree with the last poster that absolute numbe of cardiology placements means almost nothing, especially when the difference between the two is so small.
Second, I am not comparing the NYU residency experience to the Sinai residency experience...this is an impossible comparison. I am comparing the career opportunities available from each program, which I think is superior at Sinai. You told me yourself that the new cards chairman doesn't like to take NYU residents. So, if I am lucky and do really well in residency, then I have a very small chance to go to Cornell or Columbia (3 in the last 3 years). Otherwise, from the list, it looks like I will be going to North Shore. On the other hand, if I go to Sinai, from the list, it looks like if I am even an average resident I can stay at Sinai. Now, I agree that North Shore is a fine program, but you can't possibly tell me that it is as reputable as Sinai for cards. Sinai is by no means a national leader, but it is very reputable headed by the famous Valentin Fuster. So, like I said, your CAREER opportunties are more SECURE coming Sinai.
As far as Bellevue is concerned. Sure you get great clinical experience, while doing all your own blood draws and transporting all of your own patients, etc. Sinai has a similar experience at Elmhurst. Sure, more people have heard of Bellevue, but do you really think that Bellevue's "best clinical experience" trains better doctors than Sinai or Columbia. Thats kind of arrogant. In the end, as long as your not going to one of "The Big 4", you are going to get pretty similar training and be a fine doctor. I think it is a little foolhearted to say that you will be a better-trained MD coming out of NYU.
And as far as Bellevue's "national reputation", it is still a city hospital. No one goes to UCSF to work at SFGH, which is probably the most renowned city hospital in the country (and also has the highest NIH funding, if you like objective measurements of success). You go to UCSF for UCSF. Remember, the way you judge national reputation, objectively, is by NIH funding and fellowship match list. You can tell me that Bellevue has a better national rep than Sinai all you want, but the fact is come fellowship time, Sinai sets you up a little better because they take their own. That takes alot of the pressure off.
Now all that is just talking about cards...what about GI, or liver transplant, or geriatrics all of which Sinai are the best in NYC and just behind places like MGH and Hopkins. If you want to go into GI, you can go to Sinai for residency (an ok rep) and then have a huge advantage at Sinai's GI program (an amazing rep).
Finally, what exactly do you mean by "if you look at the list of my interviews you would be amazed"? Are you patting yourself on the back for all the great interviews you received? If so, do you really think that I will be impressed over that list? Do you know me...maybe my list is better, maybe its worse...the point is what in gods name does that have to do with anything. You got very personal very quickly, and even tried to attack me in your last paragraph. I am just stating the facts here.
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As an NYU student, i can say that if I were going into IM (which I am not) and I wanted to stay in New York, I would 100% rank NYU first. I am biased, of course, but I love medicine at NYU. The experience is so broad and you see EVERYTHING at NYU. The location is fantastic and the history of Bellevue is phenomenal. I would go with NYU in a heartbeat!
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I've heard NYU doesn't offer housing. Sinai gives you pretty good subsidized housing.Having lived in NYC I know that counts for a lot and can quickly eat up that extra 5000 which probably won't cover your security deposit and first and last months rent.
cardiologydude said:
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NYU, at least in my books, is bit above Sinai given their clinical experience (which is not blood drawing and transportation but autonomy when making decisions, but you as an MSIV would not understand it anyway). Hehe...just ask your collegues from Cornell how they feel about that. Acting as a "secretary" isn't fun. Moreover, Bellevue does get very unique patient population, not matched by Elmhurst or any other hospital in the USA.
In the past couple years there are NO unmached people for cards at NYU. I know this first hand. So everybody who applies, gets it. Period. End of a story. You go to Sinai if you like it so much just do not make fake claims please. Thank you!
In the past couple years there are NO unmached people for cards at NYU. I know this first hand. So everybody who applies, gets it. Period. End of a story. You go to Sinai if you like it so much just do not make fake claims please. Thank you!
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hi,
I believe NYU is a fine institution with excellent clinical training...to be honest though, I think the "excellent clinical rep" is overplayed as is the Bellvue fame...I believe there are plenty of other institutions that offer a great clinical training, and there is no doubt in my mind that mt sinai's training experience is definitely comparable...as for nurturing your career, I agree with one of the above posters here regarding the slightly better fellowship placement...keeping in mind that mt sinai fellowships are far more sought after than the residency program...and keeping in mind that in a much smaller residency program, such a high proportion of candidates obtain top fellowships...also research is not one of NYU's fortes, which explains why fellowship matching and national rep may suffer a tad...mt sinai on the other hand has very reputable researchers in major fields, and offers more opportunities in that regard...combine that with a friendly atmosphere, a chair and pd who are willing to bat for you come career time, and provided housing (which accoridng to NYU they will only provide for people who come from far away)...mt sinai may be a better choice
now with that said, some people love the feeling of the city hospital...I came away much more impressed with NYU than mt sinai when I left my interviews, though I still debate how I will rank the two of them...NYU definitely does offer a sense of autonomy and the residents have their own pride...to be hoenst, my opinion is that doing your own blood draws makes you more independent and scut work is a part of learning...really neither of these is CLEARLY on top of the other, and in fact if you probably went a decade, each institution would probably beat each other pretty evenly (mtsinai > nyu 5 years, and vice versa)...i think, however, that for RIGHT NOW, mt sinai probably offers a little better career opps based on offering some of their own fellowship slots to their residents...when NYU goes back to doing that as well, they will probably attract back a good number of candidates who would more strongly consider sinai...
hope that helped a little...and trust me I mean no offense to either of htese schools as they are both absolutely great places to train...
I believe NYU is a fine institution with excellent clinical training...to be honest though, I think the "excellent clinical rep" is overplayed as is the Bellvue fame...I believe there are plenty of other institutions that offer a great clinical training, and there is no doubt in my mind that mt sinai's training experience is definitely comparable...as for nurturing your career, I agree with one of the above posters here regarding the slightly better fellowship placement...keeping in mind that mt sinai fellowships are far more sought after than the residency program...and keeping in mind that in a much smaller residency program, such a high proportion of candidates obtain top fellowships...also research is not one of NYU's fortes, which explains why fellowship matching and national rep may suffer a tad...mt sinai on the other hand has very reputable researchers in major fields, and offers more opportunities in that regard...combine that with a friendly atmosphere, a chair and pd who are willing to bat for you come career time, and provided housing (which accoridng to NYU they will only provide for people who come from far away)...mt sinai may be a better choice
now with that said, some people love the feeling of the city hospital...I came away much more impressed with NYU than mt sinai when I left my interviews, though I still debate how I will rank the two of them...NYU definitely does offer a sense of autonomy and the residents have their own pride...to be hoenst, my opinion is that doing your own blood draws makes you more independent and scut work is a part of learning...really neither of these is CLEARLY on top of the other, and in fact if you probably went a decade, each institution would probably beat each other pretty evenly (mtsinai > nyu 5 years, and vice versa)...i think, however, that for RIGHT NOW, mt sinai probably offers a little better career opps based on offering some of their own fellowship slots to their residents...when NYU goes back to doing that as well, they will probably attract back a good number of candidates who would more strongly consider sinai...
hope that helped a little...and trust me I mean no offense to either of htese schools as they are both absolutely great places to train...
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rajvosa said:
I think we've discussed this before, but I believe we must agree to disagree. The irony of you asking others to not make fake claims is notable, but one thing for sure is that Elmhurst is more diverse, with the US Department of Commerce stating that 11373 is THE most diverse area in the United States (more so than lower Manhattan, Los Angeles county, or anywhere else). To say that the Bellevue population is not matched by anyone else is a false claim. Just because someone has a leprosy clinic is not enough to say that the patient population is "very unique" (in that redundant phrase). When I was prelim, I saw leshmaniasis, schistosomiasis, liver abscess from E. histolytica, and the sickest patient I've EVER seen with TB (it wasn't just pulmonary nodules with hemoptysis, fever, and weight loss - this guy looked like someone had shot him with a salt gun). Daily I had my cobbled together Spanish and Chinese, and got to speak my French and Polish, with the patients.
Your bias is NYU/Bellevue, and mine is Sinai/Elmhurst. At best, I would say they are equal in diversity, or I would lean towards Elmhurst with more diversity. However, for you to say that Bellevue is head and shoulders above anyone else is disingenuous.
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Can we get along?
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I can't believe how defensive you all are.
What fake claims did I make? I am merely looking at the match lists and showing you that going to Sinai will give you more CAREER STABILITY. If you excel at either place, I am sure that all doors will be open. But, as the lists show, an average resident from Sinai goes to Sinai while an average resident from NYU goes to North Shore for cards. This is pretty indisputable...look at the list. Yes, its very nice that 100% of people from NYU match in cards, but look at where they match. Sinai also boasts a 100% matching rate, but overall, on the whole, in general, the places are a little stronger. Yes, there are exceptions, but generally speaking,this is how the lists bear out. Thats all I am saying.
Why do people insist on making foolish, obviously biased claims such as "Bellevue does get very unique patient population, not matched by Elmhurst or any other hospital in the USA." Come on now, we are all scientists here. How can you possibly say that this is true? First of all, Elmhurst Queens is the most ethnically diverse zip code in the US. There is actual data on that (at least so they told me at the Sinai interview) Now I would never claim any absolutes that this automatically translates into "the most diverse patients" or "the most unique disease processes" or "the best clincial training." I don't know, maybe the clinical experience at Sinai is terrible. I doubt it, but maybe thats true. My point is that you don't know either. You can't know for sure that Bellevue's patient population is not matched by Elmhurst, or by any other place for that matter? Oh the arrogance!
And, amarula, it is very nice that you liked your med school so much, but how many other hospitals have you worked in? Lets say you did 2 away rotations, so then that means that all of your clincial experience as a med student (save for 2 months) has been at NYU. Its great that you saw EVERYTHING at NYU, but how do you know you don't see EVERYTHING at Sinai? Even if you did an away rotation there, 1 month is a very small sample size. Why are people so unable to see the merits of some-place else?
I have no idea which one offers "better clinical training", as if you can define that. The only real way to know that for sure would be to do 2 residencies, one at either place and compare them. Why does everyone think I am saying that Sinai's residency is better? It may be, but it may not be...the difference is so small that it is a trivial conversation and very person-dependent. All I know for sure is that Sinai has more nationally recognized departments and has a better overall match list for cards. So if you want to do cards, or GI for that matter, it is A LITTLE "safer" to go to Sinai. With that said, I don't want to go to either place.
Boy, there are a lot of very defensive NYU folks out there...makes ya think...
What fake claims did I make? I am merely looking at the match lists and showing you that going to Sinai will give you more CAREER STABILITY. If you excel at either place, I am sure that all doors will be open. But, as the lists show, an average resident from Sinai goes to Sinai while an average resident from NYU goes to North Shore for cards. This is pretty indisputable...look at the list. Yes, its very nice that 100% of people from NYU match in cards, but look at where they match. Sinai also boasts a 100% matching rate, but overall, on the whole, in general, the places are a little stronger. Yes, there are exceptions, but generally speaking,this is how the lists bear out. Thats all I am saying.
Why do people insist on making foolish, obviously biased claims such as "Bellevue does get very unique patient population, not matched by Elmhurst or any other hospital in the USA." Come on now, we are all scientists here. How can you possibly say that this is true? First of all, Elmhurst Queens is the most ethnically diverse zip code in the US. There is actual data on that (at least so they told me at the Sinai interview) Now I would never claim any absolutes that this automatically translates into "the most diverse patients" or "the most unique disease processes" or "the best clincial training." I don't know, maybe the clinical experience at Sinai is terrible. I doubt it, but maybe thats true. My point is that you don't know either. You can't know for sure that Bellevue's patient population is not matched by Elmhurst, or by any other place for that matter? Oh the arrogance!
And, amarula, it is very nice that you liked your med school so much, but how many other hospitals have you worked in? Lets say you did 2 away rotations, so then that means that all of your clincial experience as a med student (save for 2 months) has been at NYU. Its great that you saw EVERYTHING at NYU, but how do you know you don't see EVERYTHING at Sinai? Even if you did an away rotation there, 1 month is a very small sample size. Why are people so unable to see the merits of some-place else?
I have no idea which one offers "better clinical training", as if you can define that. The only real way to know that for sure would be to do 2 residencies, one at either place and compare them. Why does everyone think I am saying that Sinai's residency is better? It may be, but it may not be...the difference is so small that it is a trivial conversation and very person-dependent. All I know for sure is that Sinai has more nationally recognized departments and has a better overall match list for cards. So if you want to do cards, or GI for that matter, it is A LITTLE "safer" to go to Sinai. With that said, I don't want to go to either place.
Boy, there are a lot of very defensive NYU folks out there...makes ya think...
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I think MSIV has put together a good argument for what he's arguing....fellowship opportunities coming out of NYU and Sinai (sinai with better opps). you cannot dispute a match list ok? for what it's worth, my PD (not a nyc school) confirms that sinai has better national rep and overall a leg-up in placing residents to good fellowships.
regarding their residency programs, i agree that it depends on the kind of person you are. im sure the training is wonderful and earth-shattering at both places. you cannot argue that a sinai resident, simply by virtue of coming from sinai, will be a better doctor than an NYU resident (or vice versa!). the inherent qualities of the resident clearly play a larger role in determining what kind of doctor he/she will be.
to those getting all heated and defensive, quit it...your inferiority complex is blinding everyone.
regarding their residency programs, i agree that it depends on the kind of person you are. im sure the training is wonderful and earth-shattering at both places. you cannot argue that a sinai resident, simply by virtue of coming from sinai, will be a better doctor than an NYU resident (or vice versa!). the inherent qualities of the resident clearly play a larger role in determining what kind of doctor he/she will be.
to those getting all heated and defensive, quit it...your inferiority complex is blinding everyone.
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I think Mt. Sinai and NYU are of equal quality.
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cardsdude...the reason most are giving here is that the inbreeding is a good thing for people going to sinai...neither of these are powerhouse programs (i.e. not top four) and thus inbreeding is a VERY helpful thing, taking a great deal of pressure off when coming to fellowship time...in addition, knowing that your own program will take its own grads (and in addition, having your own program be a top fellowship program for cards and gi and such) is a large advantage...if nyu did do this im sure more people on this thread would agree with you...remember for fellowship you want both placement inside your home institution and outside it...int he last few years NYU has not been inbreeding at all, and this calls into question the big why (esp because nyu fellowship is pretty good, so why arent they proud of taking their own?)...i hope they will in the future, as this would greatly change many people's opinions on them for career development...
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oh my lord.
ok lets do the analysis, if you really, really want to...
Sinai's best vs NYU's best
Sinai=Columbia (2) and UW (1)
NYU=Cornell (2) and Columbia (1)
We'll call that even, just for argumnts sake (although I consider that a very small Sinai win since Columbia is better than Cornell and UW is about the same as Columbia; but its so small that its trivial)
Sinai's bottom vs NYU's bottom
Sinai=Beth Israel (2), NYMC (1)
NYU=Beth Israel (2), NYMC (2), St. Lukes (1), Robert Wood (1)
Again, about the same
Sinai's Middle vs NYU's Middle
Sinai=Sinai(7), Sinai/Elm(2), NYU(2), Monte(1), Maryland(1), Harbor-UC(1)
NYU=N. Shore(5), Pitt(3), NYU(2), Monte(1), Georgetown(1), TJ (1)
So, the NYU's cancel out, the Monte's cancel out, Maryland about equals georetown, and Harbor-UCLA about equals TJ. So that leaves Sinai and Sinai/elmhurst (which is pretty much the same as Sinai, just with less research time) vs North Shore and Pitt.
So, what did we show. Like I said, if you do well, all doors are open (Columbia/Cornell). If you do poorly, the same lesser opportunities are open. The diffenece lies in the AVERAGE resident. Because Sinai takes so many of their own, you are almost guaranteed Sinai or an equivalent. At NYU, you will be at North Shore or Pitt. Now, don't get me wrong, Pitt is a very good place, and North Shore has a fine program, but I would rather be at Sinai than either one. And so would you, since you told us that you would rather be ANYWHERE in NYC than go to so place like Stanford. And I think we both know that Sinai is a much better program than North Shore (even if its tough to admit 😉 So, since Sinai>Pitt and Sinai>North Shore, Sinai has the SLIGHT advantage. (And please don't argue that Pitt is "better" than Sinai in cards because we both know where you would rather be, even though Pitt has a better basketball team)
And those Pitt placements are precarious because there is no guarantee that you will go there because you have no ties there; True, if its not at Pitt then it will almost definetely be somewhere equivalent, but who knows where in the country that may be. At Sinai, those spots are not precarious because its your home school...they know you and are open about the fact that they want to keep their own. Much, much less risk.
So, after all of this, we still come down to the fact that Sinai gives you A LITTLE better career STABILITY (I said that like 10 times), especially if you want to stay in NYC. Thats all...no reason to get all riled up.
And no, I don't go to Sinai 🙂
ok lets do the analysis, if you really, really want to...
Sinai's best vs NYU's best
Sinai=Columbia (2) and UW (1)
NYU=Cornell (2) and Columbia (1)
We'll call that even, just for argumnts sake (although I consider that a very small Sinai win since Columbia is better than Cornell and UW is about the same as Columbia; but its so small that its trivial)
Sinai's bottom vs NYU's bottom
Sinai=Beth Israel (2), NYMC (1)
NYU=Beth Israel (2), NYMC (2), St. Lukes (1), Robert Wood (1)
Again, about the same
Sinai's Middle vs NYU's Middle
Sinai=Sinai(7), Sinai/Elm(2), NYU(2), Monte(1), Maryland(1), Harbor-UC(1)
NYU=N. Shore(5), Pitt(3), NYU(2), Monte(1), Georgetown(1), TJ (1)
So, the NYU's cancel out, the Monte's cancel out, Maryland about equals georetown, and Harbor-UCLA about equals TJ. So that leaves Sinai and Sinai/elmhurst (which is pretty much the same as Sinai, just with less research time) vs North Shore and Pitt.
So, what did we show. Like I said, if you do well, all doors are open (Columbia/Cornell). If you do poorly, the same lesser opportunities are open. The diffenece lies in the AVERAGE resident. Because Sinai takes so many of their own, you are almost guaranteed Sinai or an equivalent. At NYU, you will be at North Shore or Pitt. Now, don't get me wrong, Pitt is a very good place, and North Shore has a fine program, but I would rather be at Sinai than either one. And so would you, since you told us that you would rather be ANYWHERE in NYC than go to so place like Stanford. And I think we both know that Sinai is a much better program than North Shore (even if its tough to admit 😉 So, since Sinai>Pitt and Sinai>North Shore, Sinai has the SLIGHT advantage. (And please don't argue that Pitt is "better" than Sinai in cards because we both know where you would rather be, even though Pitt has a better basketball team)
And those Pitt placements are precarious because there is no guarantee that you will go there because you have no ties there; True, if its not at Pitt then it will almost definetely be somewhere equivalent, but who knows where in the country that may be. At Sinai, those spots are not precarious because its your home school...they know you and are open about the fact that they want to keep their own. Much, much less risk.
So, after all of this, we still come down to the fact that Sinai gives you A LITTLE better career STABILITY (I said that like 10 times), especially if you want to stay in NYC. Thats all...no reason to get all riled up.
And no, I don't go to Sinai 🙂
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drheartmd, well said.
for disclaimer, i am not interested in cards nor am i from nyc, so i don't hold much of a bias. i visited both programs, they are both excellent. my impression, sinai is more literature/research oriented (morning report, they have their residents go look up literature and come back discuss it next day), while NYU is more clinically oriented/ hands on. unfortunately the reality of cards today is research - research - research, which may give sinai a slight uphand. but if you were to look at pulm/critical care, i am sure nyu do better (i am not looking at the list right now, so please no one quote me on this ...)
you guys, stop it, this is getting ridiculous, stop putting programs down. they are both great and honestly not too different from one another; i feel like this is the same debate ppl have about mgh vs. bwh. it all comes down to the culture of the place, and which patient pop you are more comfortable with.
for disclaimer, i am not interested in cards nor am i from nyc, so i don't hold much of a bias. i visited both programs, they are both excellent. my impression, sinai is more literature/research oriented (morning report, they have their residents go look up literature and come back discuss it next day), while NYU is more clinically oriented/ hands on. unfortunately the reality of cards today is research - research - research, which may give sinai a slight uphand. but if you were to look at pulm/critical care, i am sure nyu do better (i am not looking at the list right now, so please no one quote me on this ...)
you guys, stop it, this is getting ridiculous, stop putting programs down. they are both great and honestly not too different from one another; i feel like this is the same debate ppl have about mgh vs. bwh. it all comes down to the culture of the place, and which patient pop you are more comfortable with.
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Hi,
This is my first post. I'm one of the residents at NYU IM currently. This thread has been pretty heated! Having gone through the cardiology fellowship application process, for what it's worth, I just wanted to offer a few clarifications on some of the info presented in the original post to which I'm replying:
1. The 2005 NYU Match results listed below don't account for 1 NYU IM resident who was fast tracked into the NYU cardiology fellowship / chief resident position.
2. As far as I know, NYU only had 1 graduate go to NYMC/Westchester Medical Center for cardiology in 2005. I'm not sure who the 2nd applicant that matched at NYMC was.
3. The 2005 Mt. Sinai Match results listed below show 4 Sinai applicants matched at their home institution for cardiology. My friends (I have no independent verification of this) tell me that 2 of them matched into the Investigator Track (research oriented, Mt. Sinai based) and that the other 2 matched into the Urban Community Track (community, clinical cardiology focused, ~1/2 of time at Elmhurst hospital). I think most of my friends who were applying with me for cards considered the Urban program to be a different program from the traditional Mt. Sinai program.
4. I really enjoyed my time at NYU. That being said, it seems that the opportunities for fellowship placement are similar for graduates of either Mt. Sinai or NYU (alphabetical order only
) Having applied to 30 programs, gone to 15 interviews, and matched at 1 program, the general feeling was that research experience, both in terms of who you worked with, the quality of your publications/abstracts, and lastly the number of projects/papers probably was a factor very closely looked at during the process. Pedigree did matter to a certain degree, but certainly there was wide variation in the correlation between residency program an applicant trained at and the types of programs offereing invitations to that applicant.
Good luck to everyone applying to residency...and get ready to do it all over again for fellowship! 😉
This is my first post. I'm one of the residents at NYU IM currently. This thread has been pretty heated! Having gone through the cardiology fellowship application process, for what it's worth, I just wanted to offer a few clarifications on some of the info presented in the original post to which I'm replying:
1. The 2005 NYU Match results listed below don't account for 1 NYU IM resident who was fast tracked into the NYU cardiology fellowship / chief resident position.
2. As far as I know, NYU only had 1 graduate go to NYMC/Westchester Medical Center for cardiology in 2005. I'm not sure who the 2nd applicant that matched at NYMC was.
3. The 2005 Mt. Sinai Match results listed below show 4 Sinai applicants matched at their home institution for cardiology. My friends (I have no independent verification of this) tell me that 2 of them matched into the Investigator Track (research oriented, Mt. Sinai based) and that the other 2 matched into the Urban Community Track (community, clinical cardiology focused, ~1/2 of time at Elmhurst hospital). I think most of my friends who were applying with me for cards considered the Urban program to be a different program from the traditional Mt. Sinai program.
4. I really enjoyed my time at NYU. That being said, it seems that the opportunities for fellowship placement are similar for graduates of either Mt. Sinai or NYU (alphabetical order only
) Having applied to 30 programs, gone to 15 interviews, and matched at 1 program, the general feeling was that research experience, both in terms of who you worked with, the quality of your publications/abstracts, and lastly the number of projects/papers probably was a factor very closely looked at during the process. Pedigree did matter to a certain degree, but certainly there was wide variation in the correlation between residency program an applicant trained at and the types of programs offereing invitations to that applicant.Good luck to everyone applying to residency...and get ready to do it all over again for fellowship! 😉
MSIV said:
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Finally, someone giving some objective advice to the original poster. I always find it hilarious when people judge medical schools based on numers of people who matched in urology or whatever. The same is true for fellowhsip.. A good program is one that places people in positions to successfully achieve the next step in their career path. You can't compare programs just by how many people got spots in cards. When thinking about fellowships, it is more important to have good connections, research experience, and specific interests that are supported by prior/current work. You can't rely on a program to do all the work for you. I'm interested in IBD and its extraintestinal manifestions so I will be looking at fellowship programs that have INDIVIDUAL factulty members that are accomplished in that area and who would be good mentors as I advance in my career. Maybe that person will be at MGH. Maybe at Hennepin County. The point it, it is more based on invidual funding and mentorship at that point than how many boners a bunch of people on SDN get when they think about the program. Lastly, it can easily be considered that a program who sends only a few people a year to cards (assuming all that applied matched) may be a good thing. Less competition is good. The program I'm hoping to match at for residency has a boatload of people who generally go towards cards, pulm, or heme/onc. Better for me as far as I'm concerned.
This whole NYU vs. Sinai thing is ******ed. It is an individual decision. Which one did you like better? Which one meets more of your specific needs? Listening to a bunch of people argue over 22 vs 20 fellowship spots is unfortunate and unhelpful.
This whole NYU vs. Sinai thing is ******ed. It is an individual decision. Which one did you like better? Which one meets more of your specific needs? Listening to a bunch of people argue over 22 vs 20 fellowship spots is unfortunate and unhelpful.
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amarula said:
Hey MSIV. As you can see, in my previous post, I did acknowledge that I am biased. There are many departments at NYU that I DON'T like (including Pediatrics, which I am going into). I don't think that I am pro-NYU because I go to NYU. And also, I don't believe I've been defensive at all! I was just posting about my limited, but positive, experience with medicine at NYU. I haven't seen *everything* at NYU, but I've seen a lot more than my fiance who is at another prestigious NYC med school. Jeez!
Just to reiterate what CorVeritas said, Sinai-Elmhurst is little more of a community cardiology program, less desirable than LIJ or Northshore IMHO and does not mix much with the "Investigator Track" fellows.
NYU's cards program is undergoing enormous growth right now while sinai's cards division seems to have lost a bunch of strong investigators in the last few years.
NYU's cards program is undergoing enormous growth right now while sinai's cards division seems to have lost a bunch of strong investigators in the last few years.
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I know Dr. Judith Hochman that was recruited few years ago from another NYC institution.
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seems to me NYU's idea to avoid "inbreeding" with the fellowships is a bad idea all around. For residents it means there's one less prestigious spot in nyc that they can't get into. For the program it means there's less good candidates for fellows, assuming residents who practiced there for three plus years will be great candidates there. All that just to avoid educational inbreeding sounds ridiculous.
