NYU vs. WASHU pre med post bacc program

[mgm1994]

I’m considering both WASHU and NYU’s pre med post bacc programs. WASHU seems to have a good reputation that students and med schools alike value, but I’m nervous about going to live in St. Louis because of crime rates, etc. Thus, I began looking into NYU’s program which seems to have a similarly good reputation, good advising, and decent linkage opportunities. (I have applied to Columbia’s program, however, after reading reviews I have mostly been deterred from choosing it)

I’m hoping for in sight from current students or graduates of these programs on:

1. Living in St. Louis vs. Manhattan (cost, safety, convenience) & cost vs. benefit of program

2. Difficulty of classes (how possible is it to get an A, curving, are there limits to the number of students per class who get As’s)

3. Academic atmosphere (competitive, friendly, study groups, classes with undergrads, day vs. night classes?)

4. Availability of shadowing, volunteering, clinical research opportunities

5. For those who have or will soon graduate, what med schools are you attending/planning to attend?, What are you stats?, Where are your classmates attending?

THANK YOU! I appreciate any insight you can provide.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[efle]

No experience with NYU but extensive experience with WashU:

WashU is a classic example of a wealthy bubble area in a city full of terribly poor and violent areas. The WashU students all live immediately around or between the undergrad and medical campuses and don't stray too far from a couple local restaurant and bar strips. I lived there half a decade and never felt like I was in any danger, just follow the standard rules of most cities (e.g. don't take long metro rides late at night or walk through sketchy areas). In fact it was pretty awesome how cheap you could find housing in a good area full of students.

WashU prereq classes are a weedout process 100%. Most of them are curved to a 3.0 median, where the median student was national merit with a top 1% SAT and top of their high school. There are roughly 1000 premeds that start in GenChem 1 and lab, and between chem + lab, orgo + lab, physics, calc, bio and biochem, only around 1 in 3 makes it to the end of the sequence.

People are friendly and study together because most of the classes got smart and started curving you against the prior year's cohort instead of each other. The degree of weedout stays exactly the same because year to year the students are similar, but it's nice knowing that your score is completely unaffected by how your peers in the class are doing. It's only compared to the past.

Shadowing, volunteering, research are all plentiful. WashU medical school is 1 metro stop away (just across Forest Park) and is one of the highest funded and largest medical centers in the country. I did not know a single person that had any issues getting clinical exposure or research-for-credits.

 

[athenaa]

I just called WashU on Tuesday for their post bacc program and Shawn Cummings told me that there was no curving, it's a straight scale (very important question to me coming from UC Berkeley).

 

[efle]

I just called WashU on Tuesday for their post bacc program and Shawn Cummings told me that there was no curving, it's a straight scale (very important question to me coming from UC Berkeley).

He's being sneaky. It's a straight scale built off the prior year's bell distribution. So essentially you're being curved against the prior cohort. It's technically possible for everyone to get an A or everyone to get a D, but in reality, the cohorts are so similar between years that the breakdown remains a B / 3.0 median

In other words imagine that in the prior year, 25% of students scored above a 75 exam average. They set your group's A cutoff as a static 75. Lo and behold...only 25% of students again clear the 75.

That's how they do it. Prevents direct gunning between peers in the classes because your scores can't influence the people next to you, but effectively it's just as difficult.

 

[efle]

By the way, this is exactly how the MCAT scoring distribution works. It's "not curved" only in the sense that the people taking it across the country on your test day aren't going to influence your score. It's the people who took it last year that you get compared to when determining your percentile. But for all purposes, because the testing population remains similar, it's just as difficult to hit a given percentile.

 

[athenaa]

By the way, this is exactly how the MCAT scoring distribution works. It's "not curved" only in the sense that the people taking it across the country on your test day aren't going to influence your score. It's the people who took it last year that you get compared to when determining your percentile. But for all purposes, because the testing population remains similar, it's just as difficult to hit a given percentile.

Correct, yes about the MCAT. How did you find out how they grade in the post bacc? Did you take the program? Just wondering how to phrase my questions the next time I call so I don't get swindled!

 

[efle]

Correct, yes about the MCAT. How did you find out how they grade in the post bacc? Did you take the program? Just wondering how to phrase my questions the next time I call so I don't get swindled!

I was an undergrad premed at washu, I believe the postbacc people were just in the mix with us in the courses taking the same exams etc. If the postbacc is now a separate track with it's own tests or its own grading that doesnt have you up against the normal premeds then I've no idea how their system works!

 

[athenaa]

Really good to know that. Berkeley was exactly like that where a curve was forced from the grades from insanely challenging exams. The average became a B- and the standard deviations were huge. Definitely something I want to look out for in this search. Thanks!

 

[nontradpremed0171]

No experience with NYU but extensive experience with WashU:

WashU is a classic example of a wealthy bubble area in a city full of terribly poor and violent areas. The WashU students all live immediately around or between the undergrad and medical campuses and don't stray too far from a couple local restaurant and bar strips. I lived there half a decade and never felt like I was in any danger, just follow the standard rules of most cities (e.g. don't take long metro rides late at night or walk through sketchy areas). In fact it was pretty awesome how cheap you could find housing in a good area full of students.

WashU prereq classes are a weedout process 100%. Most of them are curved to a 3.0 median, where the median student was national merit with a top 1% SAT and top of their high school. There are roughly 1000 premeds that start in GenChem 1 and lab, and between chem + lab, orgo + lab, physics, calc, bio and biochem, only around 1 in 3 makes it to the end of the sequence.

People are friendly and study together because most of the classes got smart and started curving you against the prior year's cohort instead of each other. The degree of weedout stays exactly the same because year to year the students are similar, but it's nice knowing that your score is completely unaffected by how your peers in the class are doing. It's only compared to the past.

Shadowing, volunteering, research are all plentiful. WashU medical school is 1 metro stop away (just across Forest Park) and is one of the highest funded and largest medical centers in the country. I did not know a single person that had any issues getting clinical exposure or research-for-credits.

Hi
Thanks for the detailed info about WashU. I have been accepted to both USC and WashU post bacc since I am a career changer. I can’t decide which one to choose. I am from NorCal and going to USC is not a big transition compared to moving to STL. However, USC will cost me 20,000 more than WashU and cost of living is much higher in LA than STL.
If I were to go to WashU, I’d take classes with the rest of the undergrads and curious to know if there are gunners in the sciences class?

What is the quality of advising support you receive as a pre med?

I don’t know how big STL is but LA is massive and there are SO MANY good schools in SoCal. USC is right next to UCLA and I was told that there is plenty of EC and research opportunities. Do student compete for EC and research spots ? Is it cutthroat?

I cant find any info about USC grade deflation but I have read some horrific posts online about WashU’s grade deflation.
Any insight is appreciated.

 

[efle]

Hi
Thanks for the detailed info about WashU. I have been accepted to both USC and WashU post bacc since I am a career changer. I can’t decide which one to choose. I am from NorCal and going to USC is not a big transition compared to moving to STL. However, USC will cost me 20,000 more than WashU and cost of living is much higher in LA than STL.
If I were to go to WashU, I’d take classes with the rest of the undergrads and curious to know if there are gunners in the sciences class?

What is the quality of advising support you receive as a pre med?

I don’t know how big STL is but LA is massive and there are SO MANY good schools in SoCal. USC is right next to UCLA and I was told that there is plenty of EC and research opportunities. Do student compete for EC and research spots ? Is it cutthroat?

I cant find any info about USC grade deflation but I have read some horrific posts online about WashU’s grade deflation.
Any insight is appreciated.

No gunners really. There's no reason to gun because your grades aren't curved off your peers in the class with you, they're curved off the previous year's performance. Gunning would only impact the next group of students and not yourself.

There is very robust premed advising at WashU, but honestly, all the information you could ever need is readily available on SDN, AAMC FACTS site, and the MSAR. I didn't really use the premed advising at all, other than the one required meeting to review your application when they write your committee cover letter for your LOR packet.

USC is a more business/econ/non-STEM oriented school than WashU, but because of its location you'd still be able to find plenty of volunteering and other ECs. I'm a little familiar with USC grading because I came from Southern California and had lots of friends who went there (though none for pre-med) - unfortunately it is just as deflating with an average GPA in the low 3's

I think WashU would be the better med school pipeline, and definitely a ton cheaper between tuition and living cost differences. It's just a question of whether you're willing to leave California!

 

[j_diggity]

No experience with NYU but extensive experience with WashU:

WashU is a classic example of a wealthy bubble area in a city full of terribly poor and violent areas. The WashU students all live immediately around or between the undergrad and medical campuses and don't stray too far from a couple local restaurant and bar strips. I lived there half a decade and never felt like I was in any danger, just follow the standard rules of most cities (e.g. don't take long metro rides late at night or walk through sketchy areas). In fact it was pretty awesome how cheap you could find housing in a good area full of students.

WashU prereq classes are a weedout process 100%. Most of them are curved to a 3.0 median, where the median student was national merit with a top 1% SAT and top of their high school. There are roughly 1000 premeds that start in GenChem 1 and lab, and between chem + lab, orgo + lab, physics, calc, bio and biochem, only around 1 in 3 makes it to the end of the sequence.

People are friendly and study together because most of the classes got smart and started curving you against the prior year's cohort instead of each other. The degree of weedout stays exactly the same because year to year the students are similar, but it's nice knowing that your score is completely unaffected by how your peers in the class are doing. It's only compared to the past.

Shadowing, volunteering, research are all plentiful. WashU medical school is 1 metro stop away (just across Forest Park) and is one of the highest funded and largest medical centers in the country. I did not know a single person that had any issues getting clinical exposure or research-for-credits.

I think this is actually incorrect because the postbac program's courses are totally separate from the undergrads, with different profs, grading policies, etc. The grading policies sound very fair in the postbac.

 

[efle]

I think this is actually incorrect because the postbac program's courses are totally separate from the undergrads, with different profs, grading policies, etc. The grading policies sound very fair in the postbac.

That must have changed in the last decade, probably because of how intense the typical courses are. I remember I had nontrads in my prereqs but that was back in like 2012 and 2013

 

[j_diggity]

That must have changed in the last decade, probably because of how intense the typical courses are. I remember I had nontrads in my prereqs but that was back in like 2012 and 2013

Oh yeah, definitely! It sounds like the undergrad classes are not geared toward the MCAT either. I think the idea is that the Bio dept wants to prepare people for really challenging research careers in the biological sciences and not teach just for premeds, so they'll spend a lot of time on things that don't come up on the MCAT. Not a bad approach, but worth considering if you want to go there for undergrad. The only reason I commented on this older post is in case other people like me are researching this program; I just wanted to make sure they don't come away with the wrong impression regarding the postbac specifically.

I think I'm going to attend this program, so I'm currently doing a ton of research on it .

 

[efle]

Oh yeah, definitely! It sounds like the undergrad classes are not geared toward the MCAT either. I think the idea is that the Bio dept wants to prepare people for really challenging research careers in the biological sciences and not teach just for premeds, so they'll spend a lot of time on things that don't come up on the MCAT. Not a bad approach, but worth considering if you want to go there for undergrad. The only reason I commented on this older post is in case other people like me are researching this program; I just wanted to make sure they don't come away with the wrong impression regarding the postbac specifically.

I think I'm going to attend this program, so I'm currently doing a ton of research on it .

I actually covered everything we needed to know in BCPM plus more. Based on the prehealth data, getting As in the prereqs is harder than getting >95th percentile MCAT, and it really feels that way while you're in them too. I'm glad to hear they dont toss nontrads to the wolves like that. Something geared strictly towards the MCAT level of content with a more generous curve makes way more sense