Two years of below 65%. Less than 60% if you subtract out the academy grads.
Army O-5 selection board bloodbath
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I'm seeing MC PZ/AZ/BZ rates of 66/40/2%. The SELCON rate appears to be 34-37%. Compared to last year, this year's results were delayed by 2 months.
For comparison, the PZ average on FY14 LTC AMEDD (AN, SP, MS, VC) was 69%. AN by itself was 81%.
AOCs with dismal (<50%) PZ rates: Anesthesia, Psychiatry, Pathology, Diagnostic Radiology
My take:
1. This is the preferred method for an MC drawdown. They don't give docs pink slips, they just don't promote them, then let nature take its course.
2. LTCs generally don't serve as BDE or BN surgeons, so there is less "need".
For comparison, the PZ average on FY14 LTC AMEDD (AN, SP, MS, VC) was 69%. AN by itself was 81%.
AOCs with dismal (<50%) PZ rates: Anesthesia, Psychiatry, Pathology, Diagnostic Radiology
My take:
1. This is the preferred method for an MC drawdown. They don't give docs pink slips, they just don't promote them, then let nature take its course.
2. LTCs generally don't serve as BDE or BN surgeons, so there is less "need".
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Navy rates have been this bad for several years. Around 50% in zone for o5. The stats are usually up on the npc site.
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It is hard to watch my quality Army 04 colleagues get passed over while they work their a$$ off for a lazy, back-stabbing, global-profile wearing, deployment dodging, micro-managing 06 who turns to the same
04 when there is a difficult patient care question. My advice is to join the Air Force as an 05 if you can swing it or go the VA route or just leave the guvment altogether. I would definitely not a raise a finger to do anything more
than patient care until my ADSO was done.
04 when there is a difficult patient care question. My advice is to join the Air Force as an 05 if you can swing it or go the VA route or just leave the guvment altogether. I would definitely not a raise a finger to do anything more
than patient care until my ADSO was done.
Spot on.
In pathology, in the zone was (1/5) 20% if you remove the academy grads. 42% with them.
It appears that they are trying to really slim the mid-career ranks.
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Not that you wanna be career people needed another push to leave in my opinion... but here is another. Just wait until they start yanking your ISPs, MSPs, etc. There is a reason that medcom calls them "bonuses" and not "salary." Bad pay, bad locations, bad patients (entitlement-complex dependents), no career progression (I don't define CCC/ILE as career progression), and now no promotions. Enjoy.
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That is rough. Last year the numbers weren't quite as bad if you passed the APFT and had done CCC. I believe the rate was 75% or so, can't recall exactly. Still, that would mean 25% who had all the boxes checked still didn't get promoted to O-5.
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Navy stats via NPC webpage:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-n.../05staff/Documents/FY-15/FY-15 AO5S STATS.pdf
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70% total is better than I expected.
I was passed over in 2013 despite being board certified, dept head, chair of two committees, deployed in my specialty, no PFA failures, EP fitrep ranked against peers (not 1-of-1) going into the board, no black marks, record devoid of errors, generally pleasant personality, no sworn blood enemies navy-wide as far as I know. I was pretty bent about it. Who the hell were they promoting, if not me?
I was selected above zone this year at the 2014 board. The difference - I moved from dept head to director and did less clinical work for the 5 months leading into the board. Lots of administrative work. I didn't hate it all
, it had its own set of rewards, and I learned a lot about how the business side of hospitals work, but I'm glad to be going back to a clinical job now that I'm PCS'ing.Doesn't seem right but that's how O5s are made, I guess. Being a clinician isn't enough. I suppose everybody's fitrep says "superstar clinician" on it and the board needs some way to stratify them.
I'm also always struck by how bad other corps have it when above zone. They get one good shot. If you're a nurse and you don't make it in zone you're just about done.
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I think the key is doing a lot of admin work that display both leadership skill and great responsibility. But this can be challenging if you a physician who is seeing patients. For example a family medicine doctor who works as both OIC of clinic as well as seeing patient vs MSC officer who is OIC of clinic. Also MC officers become CPT right out of medical school and after residency/fellowship they become MAJ even before becoming OIC of clinic. However MSC officers start as LT and develop "non-medical" experiences that will help to work better as OIC in the military environment when they become field grade officer. One MSC officer tells me that he just cannot believe doctors become CPT right out of medical school without working in the military. Of course I tell him to go to medical school then he will find out why...
As you know board members are composed of mostly if not all non-medical officer who will evaluate your abilities as officer and will select the best possible candidate. They will not assess your abilities as medical physician because they can't. I know...I talked to one...
I know one O-5 medical corp officer who got selected below the zone who spent most of years in the operational environment and received a top block from line officer who knows how to write a good OER. After he pinned his LTC he completed residency so he can get a job in the civilian sector. I doubt that my senior rater from my clinic know how to write a good OER that can help my promotion potential. Stating that you are top physician in the clinic will not help with promotion potential.
Bottom line:
Get a top block from line officer (O6 or above) in the deployed setting with strong remarks in promotion potential.
As you know board members are composed of mostly if not all non-medical officer who will evaluate your abilities as officer and will select the best possible candidate. They will not assess your abilities as medical physician because they can't. I know...I talked to one...
I know one O-5 medical corp officer who got selected below the zone who spent most of years in the operational environment and received a top block from line officer who knows how to write a good OER. After he pinned his LTC he completed residency so he can get a job in the civilian sector. I doubt that my senior rater from my clinic know how to write a good OER that can help my promotion potential. Stating that you are top physician in the clinic will not help with promotion potential.
Bottom line:
Get a top block from line officer (O6 or above) in the deployed setting with strong remarks in promotion potential.
I agree. While some boards may be "fully qualified", no promotion is truly "automatic". At least while we're still deploying people, a strong OER from a TO&E unit is potentially necessary and likely sufficient for LTC, assuming all the other boxes are checked. Realize too that the line officers on the board see deployed ACC officers being involuntarily separated while MC officers are getting constructive credit, chillin' in the MTFs, getting bonus pays; there will be little to zero tolerance for jacked-up simple stuff like APFT, AR 600-9, photo, PME, & ORB. And although boards are supposed to have a senior MC officer on them to explain things like "fellowship" and "board-certification", the truth is that ILE trumps the ABMS.
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I've been on five Navy promotion boards, three as voting member and two as non-voting "recorder." Navy medical/dental/nursing/MSC officer boards are chaired by an O-7 or above from any of those specialties, not by a line officer. The six or so board members are from the candidates' specific career field, although by Navy regulation all non-line boards will have one line officer on it. Line officers bring a different (and usually helpful) perspective into the deliberations. The last combined O-6/O-5 physician board I participated in had a two-star dentist as president, five O-6 physicians, and one O-6 submariner on it. The board president said the two big tie-breaking discriminators were completion of JPME (from any venue - seminar/online/residential) and taking on heavy administrative roles. Simply being an outstanding, top of the pack clinician no longer guaranteed automatic promotion to O-5, much less to O-6. Don't know if the USNA and/or USHUS grads fared better or worse. The essentially-automatic kiss of death: official photo missing from record, or an unexplained FITREP gap >90 days.
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Navy promo statistics are on the Board website (no CAC needed), although the website can be slow at times. Use the left column to navigate.
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/Pages/default.aspx
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Trinity- what O5/O6 combined board? I don't believe there's been a combined promotion board in the last 10 years. Or a physician board with a dentist senior member for that matter. Board membership isnt secret, so please show me when this occurred. If that was a command board or other "special" board, it's not germane to statutory promotion boards.
I'm also skeptical that JPME matters in most cases. It's not in the precept. Senior members can say what they want but that is a waste of time and bad advice IMHO (I know the senior mc detailer pretty well and that's her opinion too).
pgg- I agree that 70% sounds good but the IZ % is the relevant number to me. When folks like you (seriously, WTF) are in the AZ group, those spots aren't really there for the IZ group. There will be another big group of AZ folks next year and the problem compounds (say 2/3 of the IZ FOS compete at the next board and don't have a head shot, then there will be ~40 AZ selects again; IZ selection will be ~45-55% if we hold steady at 70%).
O6 is worse but not that much worse. They have to get you out as an O4 if they are going to (with few exceptions). This is simple downsizing and is one of several measures from PERS alone:
Promotion phasing plan
Decreased promotion opportunity
Decreased fellowship opportunities
Emphasis on administrative processes that force separation
Ineligibility for GME once FOS'd
I'm also skeptical that JPME matters in most cases. It's not in the precept. Senior members can say what they want but that is a waste of time and bad advice IMHO (I know the senior mc detailer pretty well and that's her opinion too).
pgg- I agree that 70% sounds good but the IZ % is the relevant number to me. When folks like you (seriously, WTF) are in the AZ group, those spots aren't really there for the IZ group. There will be another big group of AZ folks next year and the problem compounds (say 2/3 of the IZ FOS compete at the next board and don't have a head shot, then there will be ~40 AZ selects again; IZ selection will be ~45-55% if we hold steady at 70%).
O6 is worse but not that much worse. They have to get you out as an O4 if they are going to (with few exceptions). This is simple downsizing and is one of several measures from PERS alone:
Promotion phasing plan
Decreased promotion opportunity
Decreased fellowship opportunities
Emphasis on administrative processes that force separation
Ineligibility for GME once FOS'd
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"ILE trumps ABMS." There in lies the problem with military medicine. If you are not willing to play their game all the way (i.e. complete worthless military education, serve on committees filled with JCAHO-punch drinking nurses, volunteer to deploy, serve in brigade surgeon admin positions), you need to leave the military. You cannot just be a doctor anymore if you want to be promoted. I truly feel sorry for all you "lifers" because ya'll are being treated like s..t by these non-medical types. A breaking point will come in the near future during the next war when they have forced so many docs out that they will not have enough to fill all their operational positions. What then? 500k plus bonuses? Oh wait, the Feds are 17 trillion in debt.
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My apologies, I should have clarified up front that all my experience in Millington is on the reserve side of the house. I transitioned from AD to SELRES in 1992, so my knowledge of the current AD selection process is essentially zip. Since the reserve populations are smaller, they've combined the annual 2xxx O-6 and O-5 boards ever since my first membership in 2008. I don't know how far back in the past that was practiced prior to 2008. The same board members and recorders do the O-5 selections, then remain in place to separately do the O-6 selections. Usually three days plus travel are slotted on TDY orders to PERS for these two successive boards. Again, on the reserve side, once an MD/DO/DDS/RN/MSC makes O-7, their designator changes from MC/DC/NC/MSC (2105, 2205, 2905, 2305) to generic, discipline-independent Senior Healthcare Executive (2705). 2705s are used interchangeably as promotion board presidents. As for the JPME, it may or may not have been in the precept, but the board president stated that was his personal guidepost when crunching the middle-of-the-pack candidates for the 3rd or 4th time. Again my apologies if there's a huge gulf between AD and reserves processes on these various issues.
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That makes sense. AD FOs are also 2700s but there are way more MC flags than others and, while a MC FO will often chair the other boards, I've never seen the opposite. As far as the opinion of a single FO about the value of JPME, he has the power to say whatever he wants but there is no guarantee this matters again anytime later. I've seen stats that argue against it mattering for AD. I suppose there are fewer ways to breakout as a 2105. It sounds like you've spent more time in the tank than I did (I avoided going back, Millington is awful) so I bet you have a very good understanding of RC promotions. I think many of the midgrade AD types would appreciate a thread about all things navy reserve medicine as they decide to stay or go.
I think AD types are better off focusing on the exec med competencies and finding big jobs (small hospital director, MTF DH, PD, etc).
I think AD types are better off focusing on the exec med competencies and finding big jobs (small hospital director, MTF DH, PD, etc).
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Non-MC officers think that promotion for physicians is really not competitive. Some think we are spoiled. I know a MC officer (O-5) who actually failed out of fellowship, doing admin stuff etc.. going around telling everyone that promotion for military doctors is easy and everyone gets promoted if you just stay in the military. He just landed another ever important admin position that will increase chance to become O-6...
I do not agree how is easy it is for MC officer but when I see O-6 physicians who are clinical incompetent I wonder if this is true. But then again clinical competence is not requirement for promotion.
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I wonder if more AZ selects means more people are staying in vs getting out when their ADSOs are up. That's right about the time a lot of people finish their obligation.
I was more than a little ticked off at not getting selected IZ. Sure, records get promoted not people, but I still took it personally.
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If promotions are that hard to come by just get out, clearly that is what leadership wants and deserves. Same people who think a doc with an internship under his/her belt is good enough to run the clinic.
Come to think of it, same people who think an eICU is a good idea but telemedicine shouldn't count as credit towards your workload, just extra duty.
Groucho Marx once said he wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have him as a member.
Last time I looked Kaiser Permanente had a vested retirement plan after 5 years and after 20 was almost twice what mine will be (if i make it), with survivor benefits and health care.
Come to think of it, same people who think an eICU is a good idea but telemedicine shouldn't count as credit towards your workload, just extra duty.
Groucho Marx once said he wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have him as a member.
Last time I looked Kaiser Permanente had a vested retirement plan after 5 years and after 20 was almost twice what mine will be (if i make it), with survivor benefits and health care.
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Does the non-MC mean other staff corps, or the line guys? That is because I thought it was about 40% of the line guys that get O5 from O4.
I guess this would only matter to those unfortunate folks who have long obligation. Otherwise, the current climate for military medicine makes staying 20 years seem like a folly. I'll be a 11 years when I am eligible to get out, which is two years away. Guess what I haven't bothered with CCC. The writing is on the wall.
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Promotion IS much easier for the medical corps compared to the line and other staff corps, relatively speaking.
The difference is they're not people with 11-15 years of post secondary education behind them with jobs paying 2-4x as much on the outside waiting. Their jealousy is misplaced. Promotion to O5 for physicians SHOULD be 100%, like it is for O4.
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