Obamacare Passes

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So the money in a car basic premium to pay for a person recklessly driving and hurting another is the same thing as paying for a poor person to see doctor to you?

You want insurance against both?

Whats more painful the car? Or paying $1 to someone who needs it?

Check you the US budget

Get a soul
 
The point is not if you damage your own stuff, it's if you hurt/kill someone you have someone to pay those costs that any average person can't afford.

Same thing with health insurance, who do you think foots the bill when an uninsured person goes to the ER?

Its if you hurt someone in a car accident they die, and the family cant bury them

Where do you draw the analogy how is patient seeing the only healthcare available to killing someone in a car accident

Do you like see poor peoplle die in the street? So much you kill yourself?

No one is paying for anyone ok, any money into healthcare is spent very little on care

I hope some hits you with a car so that policy can cash out youre too dumb or evil to live
 
this is a bad analogy for refuting soul's point.

thats like saying, if i drive a car, and i hit and injure someone for life and they didn't get health insurance, then its on them.

why is it that they should pay for my mistake? this is why everyone needs to have car insurance so that they can afford to pay the injured party.




I do think that we should be responsible for our choices, but sometimes things happen at a bad time. Universal health care is a good thing and everyone should be required to have it because bad things can happen suddenly. However, there should be premiums that reflect your current lifestyle (aka, if you're fat, smoker, drug user, alcoholic, etc... then your premium should be way higher than the dude who exercise, etc...)

These peoplle arent purchasing insurance cause theyre dicks they can afford It
 
Its if you hurt someone in a car accident they die, and the family cant bury them

Where do you draw the analogy how is patient seeing the only healthcare available to killing someone in a car accident

Do you like see poor peoplle die in the street? So much you kill yourself?

No one is paying for anyone ok, any money into healthcare is spent very little on care

I hope some hits you with a car so that policy can cash out youre too dumb or evil to live

I think I realize why your account is put on hold. 👎

First of all, what people don't realize is insurance does not equal healthcare. Trust me, I work in one of the worst metropolitan hospitals in the regional south. I promise your people abuse this system. WAY, WAY, WAY more than you would guess. People don't get health insurance because they believe they don't need it. This is pretty short sighted thinking. Not because they're "dicks." Now there are families who work hard and obey the law, they just don't make money. These are the people we should look after. The current healthcare system IS welfare. It's broken and needs fixing.

"And are you against a law that prevents poor people from dying in the street?"

Again, those poor people on the streets are usually not just low-income families. The majority of those patients in state hospitals are the same people on welfare. You're framing like no other when you choose those words. Don't you dare paint a picture of a poor elderly couple that can't afford their medication because those are NOT the type of people we see. We see drug addicts, welfare abusers, people who don't take care of themselves, stupid, ignorant Americans that ride of people who work hard in some way, shape, or form to earn money and provide for their family. If you look at statistical analysis, you will understand just who these "poor people dying on the streets" are.

Americans on a whole are not intelligent. We're dumb and fat. By spoon-feeding the country even further, we're destroying ourselves. This law isn't about money as much as it is about principle. The rich who are paying for the poor are mad because of principle. Their lifestyle really isn't going to be affected by this law as much as everyone makes it out to be. It's principle.

Any monkey who can read a chart knows our budget is a mess. Even if we cut ALL of our discretionary spending(NASA, education budgets, research, etc) it wouldn't make a dent in our deficient even across a 10 year freeze. The healthcare system needs a revamp, but this is not the way to do it. We'll see who's right and who's wrong in the next decade.
 
Well I was totally against obamacare, but then this weekend I talked with my friend who is a consultant for hospitals. Very well informed dude. Apparently the crux of the matter is that right now, people who dont have insurance are using the emergency room for every little cold, scrape, and bruise. We, as the taxpayers, are subsidizing this. So, obamacare is theoretically making these people shoulder their share of the burden.

However, it remains to be seen if the added cost of regulation and the bureacracy formed to deal with it will outweigh this cost saving. Alls I know is every time govt gets involved, with very few exceptions (fire and police, military) its always much less efficient than private industry. I hope this works for us, but I am very skeptical.
 
Well I was totally against obamacare, but then this weekend I talked with my friend who is a consultant for hospitals. Very well informed dude. Apparently the crux of the matter is that right now, people who dont have insurance are using the emergency room for every little cold, scrape, and bruise. We, as the taxpayers, are subsidizing this. So, obamacare is theoretically making these people shoulder their share of the burden.

However, it remains to be seen if the added cost of regulation and the bureacracy formed to deal with it will outweigh this cost saving. Alls I know is every time govt gets involved, with very few exceptions (fire and police, military) its always much less efficient than private industry. I hope this works for us, but I am very skeptical.

The problem with this is that it doesn't prevent insurance companies from jacking up rates. Yes, there is a regulatory committee that is suppose to overlook cost increases. However, we also have the SEC (revolving door into the investment banks), which we all know does a phenomenal job :laugh: The problem long-term is that the insurance companies will lobby congress, which will allow them to keep increasing costs. You might say, "Well, then someone will just open up an insurance company to compete against them". The way the exchanges are setup, they do not have to compete at a national scale, but only at state level. This limits competition and does not prevent these companies from setting up barriers from entering the market (look at Texas and an example of this). With the ACA, you will be required by law to have coverage (unless you are poor or want to pay a fine). They will make bank and you will lose money - I guess eventually all of us will be so poor that we will get insurance for free...yay!

Oh, and your comment on the Military being an exception is wrong. We spend WAY too much on defense.
 
The problem with this is that it doesn't prevent insurance companies from jacking up rates. Yes, there is a regulatory committee that is suppose to overlook cost increases. However, we also have the SEC (revolving door into the investment banks), which we all know does a phenomenal job :laugh: The problem long-term is that the insurance companies will lobby congress, which will allow them to keep increasing costs. You might say, "Well, then someone will just open up an insurance company to compete against them". The way the exchanges are setup, they do not have to compete at a national scale, but only at state level. This limits competition and does not prevent these companies from setting up barriers from entering the market (look at Texas and an example of this). With the ACA, you will be required by law to have coverage (unless you are poor or want to pay a fine). They will make bank and you will lose money - I guess eventually all of us will be so poor that we will get insurance for free...yay!

Oh, and your comment on the Military being an exception is wrong. We spend WAY too much on defense.


i think everyone is going to get a govt option, or a govt insurance plan, this could keep rates down.
 
i think everyone is going to get a govt option, or a govt insurance plan, this could keep rates down.

What government option? We have to purchase through the private market. If you are speaking about the Co-op plan, they will be regulted at the state level. Again, this results in problems.
 
So does anyone know if Obamacare requires Americans to carry dental insurance? Would that be a good or bad thing?
 
So does anyone know if Obamacare requires Americans to carry dental insurance? Would that be a good or bad thing?

There will be no requirement to carry dental insurance.
 
In Florida, most Dentists at present do not take Medicare covered patients because the Medicare reimbursements are laughably low. How will Obamacare change that? Will dentists be forced to take these Medicare covered children? Will the reimbursements from Medicare to Dentists be raised?
Just seems to me IF the dentists are not required to take these Medicare children and the payments are still to low, obamacare does no good.
 
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If we cant change it, and it will take many years of adjustments to be
made after trial/error.....
we might be much less interested in knowing how/why it was a bad idea
and much more interested in knowing a way for
dentists to protect themselves.


If everyone is scratching their heads....
Then perhaps we will not truly know how dentists are affected until we're elbow deep in
Obamacare.

hopefully this is not the case & we can come up with a pretty decent plan for impact.
Or share tips.
This sort of..productive interchange of knowledge will prepare us with what is good to know & plan for.
 
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If we cant change it, and it will take many years of adjustments to be
made after trial/error.....
we might be much less interested in knowing how/why it was a bad idea
and much more interested in knowing a way for
dentists to protect themselves.


If everyone is scratching their heads....
Then perhaps we will not truly know how dentists are affected until we're elbow deep in
Obamacare.

hopefully this is not the case & we can come up with a pretty decent plan for impact.
Or share tips.
This sort of..productive interchange of knowledge will prepare us with what is good to know & plan for.

If you want to change it, GET INVOLVED!! That means that as a dentist, you need to go to a few fund raisers for your local congressional or senatorial rep (most dental societies will have these) even if that rep may not share the same political ideology as you have, and tell them what you're seeing on a daily basis, since currently only 2 of the 435 members of the House of Representatives are dentists (Rep. Mike Simpson, Republican from the 2nd District of Idaho - currently seeking his 8th term, and Rep. Paul Gosar, Republican from the 1st District in Arizona - currently seeking his 2nd term).

So that means that the other 433 members of the House and all 100 members of the Senate have no idea what it is like "in the trenches" actually treating dental patients and the challenges and demands that we face. From having attended numerous fundraisers for both state and local reps of BOTH political parties, I can tell you that I've never encountered either a sitting or prospective legislator who isn't interested in hearing the challenges that we deal with, and why a potential piece of legislation may or may not be a good idea.

If one doesn't want to do any face to face advocacy for dentistry with their legislator, then the least that they can do is make a contribution to one's state dental political action committee (PAC). As much as it shouldn't be this way (and this part of it I will admit disgusts me), the reality is that a fundraiser for an elected official is an integral part of modern politics and keeping the best interest of as we all like to call it "The Dental Party" in the minds of Republican's and Democrat's alike is why many of us dentists do so. The only situation where this hasn't been my experience (having a fundraiser to get some access to an elected official) is in my home state of CT, where in our current US Senate race, one of the candidates is independently very wealthy and is refusing all PAC money (she actually met with us dentists for the sake of actually listening to us) verses her opponent who basically said to us that he's attend a fundraiser that we'd hold if we could atleast raise a 5 figure sum for his campaign 😱 Welcome to the messed up world of US politics 2012 😡:wtf::boom::bang:
 
If you want to change it, GET INVOLVED!! That means that as a dentist, you need to go to a few fund raisers for your local congressional or senatorial rep (most dental societies will have these) even if that rep may not share the same political ideology as you have, and tell them what you're seeing on a daily basis, since currently only 2 of the 435 members of the House of Representatives are dentists (Rep. Mike Simpson, Republican from the 2nd District of Idaho - currently seeking his 8th term, and Rep. Paul Gosar, Republican from the 1st District in Arizona - currently seeking his 2nd term).

So that means that the other 433 members of the House and all 100 members of the Senate have no idea what it is like "in the trenches" actually treating dental patients and the challenges and demands that we face. From having attended numerous fundraisers for both state and local reps of BOTH political parties, I can tell you that I've never encountered either a sitting or prospective legislator who isn't interested in hearing the challenges that we deal with, and why a potential piece of legislation may or may not be a good idea.

If one doesn't want to do any face to face advocacy for dentistry with their legislator, then the least that they can do is make a contribution to one's state dental political action committee (PAC). As much as it shouldn't be this way (and this part of it I will admit disgusts me), the reality is that a fundraiser for an elected official is an integral part of modern politics and keeping the best interest of as we all like to call it "The Dental Party" in the minds of Republican's and Democrat's alike is why many of us dentists do so. The only situation where this hasn't been my experience (having a fundraiser to get some access to an elected official) is in my home state of CT, where in our current US Senate race, one of the candidates is independently very wealthy and is refusing all PAC money (she actually met with us dentists for the sake of actually listening to us) verses her opponent who basically said to us that he's attend a fundraiser that we'd hold if we could atleast raise a 5 figure sum for his campaign 😱 Welcome to the messed up world of US politics 2012 😡:wtf::boom::bang:

Linda McMahon?

Anyways, it does seem quite sad. Funnel money into the messed up political system for the opportunity (no guarantee) to possible get more money for dentists down the road. I could see the difficulty of trying to get other (more cynical/realistic?) dentists on board with this.
 
Linda McMahon?

Anyways, it does seem quite sad. Funnel money into the messed up political system for the opportunity (no guarantee) to possible get more money for dentists down the road. I could see the difficulty of trying to get other (more cynical/realistic?) dentists on board with this.

Idk, you give up a small amount of resources for the opportunity (yeah no guarantee) to prevent a massive loss of revenue in the future (dental therapists) and more importantly keep patient care at a high standard.

It's more like it could be hard to keep older dentists who are close to retiring on board with it. They still have the patient safety issue to motivate them, but don't have anything to gain personally. I don't know why any aspiring dentist wouldn't want to support organized dentistry.
 
Idk, you give up a small amount of resources for the opportunity (yeah no guarantee) to prevent a massive loss of revenue in the future (dental therapists) and more importantly keep patient care at a high standard.

It's more like it could be hard to keep older dentists who are close to retiring on board with it. They still have the patient safety issue to motivate them, but don't have anything to gain personally. I don't know why any aspiring dentist wouldn't want to support organized dentistry.

I beg to differ with you about older dentists. If you look closely at your states PAC donors I think you will find the large majority have been practicing 20+ years. We donate because we realize that how dentistry is practiced is largely determined by governor appointed boards (state dental boards) and modified by elected state representatives. Advocacy with these officials is essential to protecting and maintaining the profession.
 
Save the poor? healthcare is a right? Everyone should have it for free? Ya that's all butterflies and roses and all, but where the F is the money gonna come from!? We have NO money. we print billions of dollars of funny money a month. nothing is backing this currency. Pretty soon, our debtors will call our debt, and we ain't gonna be able to pay them back. You people are fools for falling for this feel good crap without scratching past the surface. Government handouts coupled with this "free" healthcare conglomerate have and will continue to drive this country to utter bankruptcy. For goodness sake, get informed people. This will destroy what is left of our country. This country stopped being great when lazy people realized they could legislate free stuff at the expense of the true earners. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
 
Save the poor? healthcare is a right? Everyone should have it for free? Ya that's all butterflies and roses and all, but where the F is the money gonna come from!? We have NO money. we print billions of dollars of funny money a month. nothing is backing this currency. Pretty soon, our debtors will call our debt, and we ain't gonna be able to pay them back. You people are fools for falling for this feel good crap without scratching past the surface. Government handouts coupled with this "free" healthcare conglomerate have and will continue to drive this country to utter bankruptcy. For goodness sake, get informed people. This will destroy what is left of our country. This country stopped being great when lazy people realized they could legislate free stuff at the expense of the true earners. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

You are talking to a generation marinated from birth to the first 20 years of their collective lives in pure marxism (aka socialism/ egalitarianism etc etc etc) via the public education system that is 5 decades deep. Good luck trying to argue the frog out of the boiling water at this point.

RIP late great USA. Only thing left to plan is which cities and states are gong to become the least third world. Precious few exceptions at this point. DC itself is decidedly third world in both appearance and fact at this point.

I don't make the rules of gravity and the like, reader, so don't bother crucifying me for observations of reality.
 
Well at least it's good to know there are others that see through the bulls%$t that's being fed to us. I thought I was the only one not taking crazy pills! :scared::scared:
 
Well at least it's good to know there are others that see through the bulls%$t that's being fed to us. I thought I was the only one not taking crazy pills! :scared::scared:

CA is what is going to happen to the entire country if collectivism goes any further. Welfare and support for all the illegal immigrants and all of the needy.
 
CA is what is going to happen to the entire country if collectivism goes any further. Welfare and support for all the illegal immigrants and all of the needy.

It's here already and you just have to adapt to it. After immigration reform, amnesty, citizenship for the 15 millions illegals already here, who do you think these generally low wage, lowly educated workers and their offspring will vote overwhelmingly for? More freebies, more public unions, more wealth distribution...just like California , until they run out of other people's money. Texas will turn purple state from a blue state just like Nevada, Virginia, Colorado. The Dems will win every election from now on promising everything for everyone by printing money and kicking the bill down the road to the idiot unlucky enough to have to deal with it. Just like California. Cyprus last week was just a test run with to see if government can steal people's saving when they run out of money.
 
It's here already and you just have to adapt to it. After immigration reform, amnesty, citizenship for the 15 millions illegals already here, who do you think these generally low wage, lowly educated workers and their offspring will vote overwhelmingly for? More freebies, more public unions, more wealth distribution...just like California , until they run out of other people's money. Texas will turn purple state from a blue state just like Nevada, Virginia, Colorado. The Dems will win every election from now on promising everything for everyone by printing money and kicking the bill down the road to the idiot unlucky enough to have to deal with it. Just like California. Cyprus last week was just a test run with to see if government can steal people's saving when they run out of money.

You're assuming democracy is a constant. Democracy is steadily transforming into socialism. As history proves socialism isn't sustainable. Marxism and all its branches including feminism wont last too long. History is very cyclical what usually comes next is a return of some form of monarchy and at this point the freebies will decrease greatly or stop all together for the free loaders. But it will still be too late to return the US back to its former glory because the face of the US has changed for the worst.


My vision of the future is more self-segregation. Third worlders will turn the urban areas they've "legally" invaded into a microcosm of their third world country and their dysfunction and hostility will increase the rate of white flight (into the rural areas or to other countries and this will be the most popular method of adapting to the troubles coming). More of the country will go bad while certain areas with the right people will prosper. Overall a grim future for America. Anyways who cares about the US now, they've purposely stabbed themselves in the abdomen. The two new countries that will soon overtake the US is Russia and China. I myself might one day consider moving to one of those countries and I already speak the language that is dominant in one of those two countries.
 
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You're assuming democracy is a constant. Democracy is steadily transforming into socialism. As history proves socialism isn't sustainable. Marxism and all its branches including feminism wont last too long. History is very cyclical what usually comes next is a return of some form of monarchy and at this point the freebies will decrease greatly or stop all together for the free loaders. But it will still be too late to return the US back to its former glory because the face of the US has changed for the worst.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" ~Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." ~Alexis de Tocqueville

"Americans are so enamored of equality, they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom." ~Alexis de Tocqueville

""A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on the majority always vote for the candidates promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury, with a result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy* and is followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependency**;
From dependency back into bondage**." ~Alexander Fraser Tyler

WHICH IS WHY AMERICA HAD BEEN SETUP AS A REPUBLIC (think about the pledge of allegiance for a sec): NOT A DEMOCRACY. YET THE LIE OF AMERICA BEING A DEMOCRACY HAD BEEN PROMULGATED FOR SO MANY DECADES THAT IT IS FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES FACT IN THE DEVOLVED MINDS OF THE TYPICAL MODERN AMERICAN, AND ESP. IN THE MINDS OF THE PRESENT GENERATION.

IS EVERY PERSON WHO HAS EVER SETTLED IN AMERICA, esp. in the last 20 years, REALLY ENTITLED TO THE 1 PERSON = 1 VOTE SYSTEM WHEN 1/2 THIS PRESENT COUNTRY'S POPULACE I WOULD NEVER ALLOW MY CHILDREN TO BE UNDERNEATH THEIR JURISDICTION/ CARE AS THEY ARE MORALLY AND MENTALLY UNFIT/ UNSOUND? INSANITY. YET THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DETERMINE THE COLLECTIVE DESTINY OF US ALL. CALIFORNIA. TRAIN WRECK. ENOUGH SAID.


*"Loose Fiscal Policy = The (so-called) Federal Reserve est. 1913 (really a legal counterfeiting ring propping up the gigantic Ponzi scheme known as Wall Street all run by completely private banks!)

**I estimate modern america is somewhere between here, depending on which generation is being spoken of. A few of us have already traded in our bondage for great spiritual faith in anticipation of the next cycle to unfold sometime 100+ years from now (or available in the near future if emigration is to be considered).

My vision of the future is more self-segregation. Third worlders will turn the urban areas they've "legally" invaded into a microcosm of their third world country and their dysfunction and hostility will increase the rate of white flight (into the rural areas or to other countries and this will be the most popular method of adapting to the troubles coming). More of the country will go bad while certain areas with the right people will prosper. Overall a grim future for America. Anyways who cares about the US now, they've purposely stabbed themselves in the abdomen. The two new countries that will soon overtake the US is Russia and China. I myself might one day consider moving to one of those countries and I already speak the language that is dominant in one of those two countries.

You are right. No exceptions. Yet you will be cast as the villain for speaking truth to consequence, if only because discussion of the real causes of the current reality is implicitly & explicitly confusing if not out and out forbidden by the very real, totally toxic influence of political correctness. Healthcare was the last thing the spiritual and mortal enemies needed to gain control of in order to ensure America's demise from Republic of Liberty to just another third world/first world hybrid, internationalist outpost of collectivist tax & debt slave zombies.

"The Communist Takeover of the America -45 declared goals, Congressional Record 1963"
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

RIP America. b July 4, 1776 d Nov 4, 2008. It lasted ~230 years or so there. A good run. It was really hanging on to its last feeble breath for several decades, though. Pathetic to behold. It was long past time for it to pass away.

Its every man (and feminist woman) for themselves at this point. Good luck and best wishes to everybody...every one of us is going to need it for what is coming down the Pike [continuation of this slow yet utter ruin laid at our feet by the preceding generation(s)].
 
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You are right. No exceptions. RIP America. b July 4, 1776 d Nov 4, 2008. It lasted ~230 years or so there. A good run. It was really hanging on to its last feeble breath for several decades there.

Its every man (and feminist woman) for themselves at this point. Good luck and best wishes to everybody...every one of us is going to need it for what is coming down the Pike (continuation of this slow yet utter ruin).

I don't think things are going to be as dire as you make it out to be. I believe if you still remain in the city by around the year 2020 then yes life will be a nightmare. But if you leave and move into a town in the rural areas that's made up of the right people then life will be nowhere near as bad as it will be for the urban folks. Leaving the city is no big loss anyway, I personally have never been too fond of it. And the city has always been a bad place for having a family even before the lunacy began.
 
I don't think things are going to be as dire as you make it out to be. I believe if you still remain in the city by around the year 2020 then yes life will be a nightmare. But if you leave and move into a town in the rural areas that's made up of the right people then life will be nowhere near as bad as it will be for the urban folks. Leaving the city is no big loss anyway, I personally have never been too fond of it. And the city has always been a bad place for having a family even before the lunacy began.

Yeah, being in the suburbs about 30 min away from the metropolis is the best life right now. I work hard for good money and whenever I want to visit the city or my GF I drive over there. Many people, however , simply must live by the beach or be in the center of the city.
 
You are right. No exceptions. Yet you will be cast as the villain for speaking truth to consequence, if only because discussion of the real causes of the current reality is implicitly & explicitly confusing if not out and out forbidden by the very real, totally toxic influence of political correctness. Healthcare was the last thing the spiritual and mortal enemies needed to gain control of in order to ensure America's demise from Republic of Liberty to just another third world/first world hybrid, internationalist outpost of collectivist tax & debt slave zombies.

"The Communist Takeover of the America -45 declared goals, Congressional Record 1963"
http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

RIP America. b July 4, 1776 d Nov 4, 2008. It lasted ~230 years or so there. A good run. It was really hanging on to its last feeble breath for several decades, though. Pathetic to behold. It was long past time for it to pass away.

Its every man (and feminist woman) for themselves at this point. Good luck and best wishes to everybody...every one of us is going to need it for what is coming down the Pike [continuation of this slow yet utter ruin laid at our feet by the preceding generation(s)].

"From a theoretical perspective, it is important to recognize that all forms of economic organization are ultimately based on an explicit or implicit understanding of human nature and that both capitalist and communist economies are based on fallacious accounts of human nature. On the Right, champions of free enterprise in unbridled pursuit of capital and unfettered consumption presume that people are completely autonomous and entirely self-interested individuals who enter the world with different talents and that anyone who tries hard enough is likely to succeed. Furthermore, this success is purely the result of individual effort, unencumbered and unassisted by other people and social institutions. The Horatio Alger story of a poor shoe-shine boy becoming rich by hard work and perseverance, and the story of the Marlboro man, the lone cowboy apparently running an entire ranch by himself, are deeply embedded in popular culture and clearly reflect this vision of human nature.

On the Left, communists presume that people are naturally industrious and altruistic, are content with having their material necessities met, and are like lumps of clay molded by their environments. Self-interest is hence an unfortunate byproduct of a dysfunctional economic environment. People are not naturally selfish but become that way through exposure to a specific set of economic arrangements. The goal is thus to foster "equality" by constructing a social order that emphasizes participation in the community and encourages the obliteration of individual differences and self-interested behavior.

However, both the free-market and communist view of human nature are wrong; or, rather, each is only half right. As living creatures, we have individual biological needs that must be actively met to ensure survival; there thus must be an inborn element of self-interest as standard equipment in the human animal: If I'm hungry it doesn't help me to watch my sister eat a hotdog, regardless of my sincere interest in her welfare. Human beings are also fundamentally social creatures; we are not biologically constructed to function independently, and the same gregariousness we see in our primate precursors exists in us. Thus, we have a biologically based propensity to affiliate with and care for others.

So a proper understanding of human nature recognizes the simultaneous desire to pursue individual self-interest and competitively distinguish ourselves as superior to those around us (to "stick out") and to cooperate with others as members of a broader social order that serves our social interests (to "fit in"). Becker (1973), following Rank (1932), called the simultaneous desire to stick out and to fit in the twin ontological motives. (See also Brewer's, 1991, optimal distinctiveness theory for an independent articulation of these motives.) Rank postulated that the fear of death motivates the urge to distinction in pursuit of immortality, as it does the desire to be comfortably embedded in a death-transcending collective. A number of mortality salience studies have supported the role of these two motives in terror management. For example, following a mortality salience or control induction, Simon et al. (1997) told participants (on the basis of recently completed personality assessments) that they were either very similar to or quite different from their fellow students. Participants then completed a social projection measure assessing themselves in terms of their perceived similarity to others. We predicted and found that being told one is very similar to others would instigate a compensatory reaction to differentiate oneself (to "stick out") in response to mortality salience (and relative to control conditions), but that being told one is very different from others would result in an increased desire to "fit in" in response to mortality salience (and relative to control conditions) and thus rating oneself as more similar to others.

Accordingly, social institutions in general, and economic institutions in particular, should be constructed so as to balance harmoniously these needs. Institutions that foster the development of one need, "sticking out" or "fitting in," to the exclusion of, or in opposition to, the other need are doomed to fail because they each amputate half of what we are.

Capitalist economic orders are based on the lopsided assumption that people are solely self-interested, competitive, independent individuals trying to stick out. The result is economic behavior driven by pure greed. The primary goal is the infinite accumulation of a death-denying abstraction: money. Capitalists are more concerned about the "health" of the economy than the health of people or the planet. A healthy economy is one with a low deficit and high gross national product, even if people are miserable and unhealthy and the natural environment is polluted and depleted to the point where it can no longer sustain human life.

Communist economic organization is based on the equally lopsided assumption that people have minimal physical needs and desires that can be directed and regulated by central authorities. By the totalitarian imposition of rigid controls over all aspects of life, individual expression is stifled, motivation is crushed, and innovation is trampled. Decisions are made by a relatively few inept bureaucrats or (even worse) a single monomaniacal leader (e.g., Stalin or Mao), always (at least to date) with disastrous results: stagnant inefficiency and wholesale plundering of natural resources."

http://cmsauthor.skidmore.edu/fye/summer_reading/upload/Lethal-Consumption.pdf

John Meynard Keynes said:
When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. We shall be able to rid ourselves of many of the pseudo-moral principles which have hag-ridden us for two hundred years, by which we have exalted some of the most distasteful of human qualities into the position of the highest virtues. We shall be able to afford to dare to assess the money-motive at its true value. The love of money as a possession—as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life—will be recognized for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of the semicriminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease.

Aristotle said:
There is, for example, no sense in producing or acquiring more shoes than can possibly be worn. This is self-evident. With regard to money,
however, which has become exchangeable against everything, the illusion arises that it is good to accumulate it without limit. By doing so, man
harms both the community and himself because, concentrating on such a narrow aim, he deprives his soul and spirit of larger and more rewarding experiences.
 
^^An interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing. Seems to be a very reasonable position.

I am no PhD in economic theory (probably gives me an advantage as I still have common sense tying me to reality), but it seems to me, having read Smiths "Wealth of Nations" and presupposing the basics tenants it laid out summarize simple straightforward economic theory as it relates to either a prosperous economy or a sickly one, Keynesian theory would seem to be entirely counterfeit in substance. Isn't Keynesian theory the one that is the root of this idea that paper money and/or digital currency can be relentlessly printed, with no limit to how much real value in assets must be kept in reserve (fractional reserve banking/ fiat money supply)?

Myths That Conceal Reality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNtKk2EmI-o

The Free Lunch Myth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqoCHR14n8

Some quicker videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9DH07MBG_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZr0WQxQpLs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOr668rBpIE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeqPibwK_u4

cartoon which says some of the same basic things while being more entertaining/ less dry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGk5ioEXlIM

As far as I understand it, Keynesian theory is equivalent to bankster sleight of hand analogous to magicians performing illusions in Las Vegas. I suppose the public shouldn't take notice though as all these clever illusionists call it "Quantitative Easing" or utilize the euphemism "inflation" instead of what it really is: legal counterfeiting. Which is why, in net, our tuition for dental school is skyrocketing without limits. Inevitably the young pick up the bulk of the tab. But hey, the boomers are going to get their SS checks (even if they are worth 1/4 what they were prior to all the counterfeiting) while maintaining the illusion that their 401k statements are still worth more than toilet paper, so its all good.

In my opinion, Keynes was/ is pure evil classically masked behind good intentions.

Thank you for quoting Aristotle. Timeless genius.
 
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^^An interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.

I am no PhD in economic theory (probably gives me an advantage as I still have common sense tying me to reality), but it seems to me, having read Smiths "Wealth of Nations" and presupposing the basics tenants it laid out summarize simple straightforward economic theory as it relates to either a prosperous economy or a sickly one, Keynesian theory would seem to be entirely counterfeit in substance. Isn't Keynesian theory the one that is the root of this idea that paper money and/or digital currency can be relentlessly printed, with no limit to how much real value in assets must be kept in reserve (fractional reserve banking/ fiat money supply)?

Smith's philosophy isn't entirely supportive of Capitalism either...

"Less well known, however (especially by conservative pundits who have not read his work directly), is Smith's assertion that people are not solely motivated by self-interest; additionally, they are also amenable to reason and imbued with sympathy: a sincere concern for the well-being of others. Accordingly, for Smith (1776/1937), enlightened self-interest can only properly exist (in the sense of being morally justified) when complemented with concern for and sympathy with others. Smith also argued that governments are responsible for ensuring that human sympathies are not dampened by the "mean rapacity" of "monopolizing spirit of merchants and manufacturers," in which case the average citizen "generally becomes as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to become" (p. 460)."
 
One door closes; another one opens. Upon completion of this financial crisis, I am done with my job as the investment forum moderator. Fighting for this profession, however, just commenced....
 
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You are talking to a generation marinated from birth to the first 20 years of their collective lives in pure marxism (aka socialism/ egalitarianism etc etc etc) via the public education system that is 5 decades deep. Good luck trying to argue the frog out of the boiling water at this point.

RIP late great USA. Only thing left to plan is which cities and states are gong to become the least third world. Precious few exceptions at this point. DC itself is decidedly third world in both appearance and fact at this point.

I don't make the rules of gravity and the like, reader, so don't bother crucifying me for observations of reality.

pat_buchanan_xlarge.png
 
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