Bill passes House that will cap student loan borrowing

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JacquesVallee said:
Just checked the pre dental section of reddit... yikes. They're all freaking out. I feel their pain. I can't imagine working so hard to get into dental school and then having the rug pulled from me. What they don't realize is this is likely saving them financially as I hope most of them will not attend dental school. What they also don't realize is if the government didn't cut off this source of infinite loans, tuition would reach 7 figures at many schools soon. This cap is needed but sadly came way too late.

There is also talk of this ruining specialties like ortho as almost every ortho residency requires tuition. Ironically, this may help solve the insane orthodontic saturation. @New_Vegas

I just don't think there are enough wealthy people to pay 500k for dental school. An overwhelming majority of my state school class took out 200k+ in loans. I don't see how some of these schools will survive. If they do, once thousands of dentists are riddled with predatory loans and people see how horrific it is, students will stop applying. Maybe I'm being hopeful but I think the house of cards may be coming down.

edit: I spent about an hour thoroughly perusing pre dental reddit. Many many pre dents are talking about no longer applying to dental school. Pre dents are scared. This makes me hopeful.
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Sometimes I'm glad the chaos is over on reddit. Maybe we are seen as too negative because we have pushed the line to really think carefully about the effects of debt for a while that we aren't "friendly" to them.

I didn't think we had enough wealthy people who encourage their kids to pursue dentistry and carry on the family practice given the corporatization of dentistry.

P.S. If there is a summary article focused on impacts to dentistry or dental education similar to the one we SDN staff pushed out about the Big Beautiful Bill, let us know. I'm watching ADEA, ASDA, and SNDA closely.

decisionsindentistry.com

The ‘Big, Beautiful Bill’ Also Brings a Big Tax Hike for Dentists - Decisions in Dentistry

Buried in a sweeping budget bill is a provision that could raise taxes on thousands of dental practice owners. By limiting critical tax deductions for pass-through entities, the measure threatens small practices, especially in rural and underserved communities.
decisionsindentistry.com decisionsindentistry.com

 
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JacquesVallee said:
Just checked the pre dental section of reddit... yikes. They're all freaking out. I feel their pain. I can't imagine working so hard to get into dental school and then having the rug pulled from me. What they don't realize is this is likely saving them financially as I hope most of them will not attend dental school. What they also don't realize is if the government didn't cut off this source of infinite loans, tuition would reach 7 figures at many schools soon. This cap is needed but sadly came way too late.

There is also talk of this ruining specialties like ortho as almost every ortho residency requires tuition. Ironically, this may help solve the insane orthodontic saturation. @New_Vegas

I just don't think there are enough wealthy people to pay 500k for dental school. An overwhelming majority of my state school class took out 200k+ in loans. I don't see how some of these schools will survive. If they do, once thousands of dentists are riddled with predatory loans and people see how horrific it is, students will stop applying. Maybe I'm being hopeful but I think the house of cards may be coming down.

edit: I spent about an hour thoroughly perusing pre dental reddit. Many many pre dents are talking about no longer applying to dental school. Pre dents are scared. This makes me hopeful.
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Pharmacy used to be a great gig til 200 schools opened and charged monster tuition. Now it sucks.

Dentistry is in the same boat but people keep applying cuz they hear about ONE doctor making 1 million dollars on 3 days a week that tells them they should go into it and it will be paid off in 2 years.

Stupidity at its finest.
 
I'm going to keep my eye on the USC Class of 2030 thread. I am so curious what financial aid will tell the pre dents who are interviewing there. Maybe they're going to get in cahoots with some lender who will foot 500k at some ridiculous interest rate. But even then, how will they explain to the pre dents that they can't use IBR? If you want to pay off 800k of loans at 9%, you need to spend 6.7k a month on loan payments for 25 years. Yeah, that's not going to work.
 
JacquesVallee said:
I'm going to keep my eye on the USC Class of 2030 thread. I am so curious what financial aid will tell the pre dents who are interviewing there. Maybe they're going to get in cahoots with some lender who will foot 500k at some ridiculous interest rate. But even then, how will they explain to the pre dents that they can't use IBR? If you want to pay off 800k of loans at 9%, you need to spend 6.7k a month on loan payments for 25 years. Yeah, that's not going to work.
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AAMC just pushed out a news release about MD students who add a graduate degree within the week. I think it's posted on Topics.
 
JacquesVallee said:
I'm going to keep my eye on the USC Class of 2030 thread. I am so curious what financial aid will tell the pre dents who are interviewing there. Maybe they're going to get in cahoots with some lender who will foot 500k at some ridiculous interest rate. But even then, how will they explain to the pre dents that they can't use IBR? If you want to pay off 800k of loans at 9%, you need to spend 6.7k a month on loan payments for 25 years. Yeah, that's not going to work.
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What’s funny is that I loaded up on sofi stock.

Almost 6 figures worth.

Private lenders are gonna make bank on these grads taking out these loans.

There’s always a silver lining out there. I’ve been banging the drum that dentistry ain’t worth it for a long time at the loan amounts. But at least now I guess I can invest with private lenders
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
I didn't think we had enough wealthy people who encourage their kids to pursue dentistry and carry on the family practice given the corporatization of dentistry.
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if my family had enough money to pay 200k a year of tuition with ease......dentisty would be the last thing on my mind
 
TheeRockChewer said:
if my family had enough money to pay 200k a year of tuition with ease......dentisty would be the last thing on my mind
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Same. Give me the money and put it into stocks and you come out ahead. Why on earth would I work in somebodies mouth for 100$ fillings doing 15 modbl on patients that don’t wanna pay.

Give me the money to invest instead and I’ll find another job.
 
I don't know how America gets it so wrong..

Virtually every other developed country in the world is able to educate its citizens in medicine, dentistry, etc., without overburdening them with debt. At the same time, they don't view higher education as a money-making heist where some admins make $1 mil or more.
 
allantois said:
I don't know how America gets it so wrong..

Virtually every other developed country in the world is able to educate its citizens in medicine, dentistry, etc., without overburdening them with debt. At the same time, they don't view higher education as a money-making heist where some admins make $1 mil or more.
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It’s a give and take. Most dental professionals or medical in “free healthcare” “reasonable education debt” don’t make a lot of money. Go look at European dentists.

They make a modest living.

America is the only place where you can go to school for a lot of debt and “possibly” make a lot of money.

200-300k student loans for possibly 4 days a week 300-500k income is a good bet but that was 10 years ago.

Now it’s 500k-1mil student loans for 150-200k income- terrible bet.

Yes there will be some that make more then the average but do you really want to take the bet of going 500k1mil in debt… and possibly get the average and be stuck with all that debt forever and ever for 20 years while shareholders in bank lenders make money off you?

I know as a shareholder that sounds enticing.
 
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The richest country in history can neither provide healthcare nor education to its people. We can, however, drop a lot of bombs half way across the globe. This is not a sign of an advanced culture
 
allantois said:
The richest country in history can neither provide healthcare nor education to its people. We can, however, drop a lot of bombs half way across the globe. This is not a sign of an advanced culture
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Two words: alligator Alcatraz.
 
allantois said:
The richest country in history can neither provide healthcare nor education to its people. We can, however, drop a lot of bombs half way across the globe. This is not a sign of an advanced culture
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If you are an undocumented (illegal) immigrant in Minnesota, Walz's offers free tuition for college and medical or dental school. Also, free housing and food. For the people who grew up here and paid taxes here, you don't get that.

Over 80,000 undocumented immigrants qualify for it...
 
allantois said:
The richest country in history can neither provide healthcare nor education to its people. We can, however, drop a lot of bombs half way across the globe. This is not a sign of an advanced culture
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This is laughable. We are 37 tril in debt. We are broke. But the reason why we are involved in foreign affairs is mainly to protect us interests.

Oil in the Middle East priced in dollars. The petrodollar.

If we didn’t control the Middle East and the trade routes we would be relegated to a third world country with debt. Everyone would drop the dollar.



You def should watch and educate yourself why we are involved in foreign affairs. And why we can print unlimited money with no problems.
 
JacquesVallee said:
I'm going to keep my eye on the USC Class of 2030 thread. I am so curious what financial aid will tell the pre dents who are interviewing there. Maybe they're going to get in cahoots with some lender who will foot 500k at some ridiculous interest rate. But even then, how will they explain to the pre dents that they can't use IBR? If you want to pay off 800k of loans at 9%, you need to spend 6.7k a month on loan payments for 25 years. Yeah, that's not going to work.
Click to expand...

NYU and USC yesterday:

IMG_2291.gif


Big Hoss
 
Hockey_Ortho said:
If you are an undocumented (illegal) immigrant in Minnesota, Walz's offers free tuition for college and medical or dental school. Also, free housing and food. For the people who grew up here and paid taxes here, you don't get that.

Over 80,000 undocumented immigrants qualify for it...
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i remember hearing how in NYC, illegals were given free luxury apartments, including Trump Tower. I'm just sitting here thinking "I'm a broke zoomer, and y'all can't give me that? You had the money for this the whole time but decided to give it to people who weren't even part of the system?"

Anyway, Europe sucks because it's entitled. Americans think Europeans just get their stuff for free with no expectations. Many leading countries require you to join and support the military, meanwhile I saw a guy on here the other day complaining about how the only way to become a doctor now is to join the US military. Nothing is free, there is a give and take that y'all can't see across the Atlantic
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
Exactly! It’s not like I love having my hands in strangers mouths all day long…

Big Hoss
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if there's any love for the practice, its more about honestly helping people. But to spend 200k a year to do that? I'd rather move that money in a more efficient manner; starting soup kitchens or funding my own NPO dental office.
 
Thehighwind87 said:
This is laughable. We are 37 tril in debt. We are broke. But the reason why we are involved in foreign affairs is mainly to protect us interests.

Oil in the Middle East priced in dollars. The petrodollar.

If we didn’t control the Middle East and the trade routes we would be relegated to a third world country with debt. Everyone would drop the dollar.



You def should watch and educate yourself why we are involved in foreign affairs. And why we can print unlimited money with no problems.
Click to expand...

I love it when people call America “rich.” We are so leveraged that’s it’s not even funny. Expect a sovereign debt crisis in the next 15 years or so. Then we’ll see how “rich” we are.

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
NYU and USC yesterday:

View attachment 406111

Big Hoss
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Seriously, though. They must know it's over? I imagine now the scenario is to just get as many paychecks as you can until the collapse inevitably happens.

I think we'll see a massive shift in dental specialties. The GME funded residencies of OMFS, Peds, Dental anesthesia, OMFR, and maybe even oral path will increase in competitiveness. Although, I wonder how this will affect the 6 year OMFS programs... Meanwhile, ortho and perio will see a huge decline in applications, likely shutting down many programs. I could see experienced dentists who have paid off most of their loans still getting private loans for endo still but that's just a guess. Another silver lining is I think this will stop additional non-gme funded residencies from opening which saturating ortho so badly.

HPSP, while already competitive, will now see an even greater surge in competitiveness. Moreover, HPSP will give you zero debt and a GI bill for residency. They may be the only ones lucky enough to be able to afford to specialize.

I also think for many programs the collapse will be slower than we'd like. Many of the privates will probably be able to use the 200k of federal loans and find private lenders to dish out another 200k and probably fill their classes for a few more years. With that said, without being able to do IBR, these graduates will be struggling. Pre dents will eventually see the end result and stop applying. It'll be the 1980s all over again where private programs slowly start shutting down one by one. I hope I'm wrong and it happens faster but I think dental schools will try everything they can to get students the loan money and I think many will sadly still take predatory loans.

This is all my speculation. I'm currently just a resident who went back to school after practicing general dentistry and paying off my loans. I'm just guessing this is what will happen but who knows. These next 5-10 years will be very very interesting.
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
I love it when people call America “rich.” We are so leveraged that’s it’s not even funny. Expect a sovereign debt crisis in the next 15 years or so. Then we’ll see how “rich” we are.

Big Hoss
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I don’t think we see that. Personally I think we see something of a reverse market crash up.

As govt deficit spend and go more in debt- assets like stocks equities go up a lot. Aka currency devaluation. Things will get more expensive like housing, food, lunch, school, but people that don’t have assets will be “poorer” then ever.

They might get a raise adjusted for inflation from 20$ to 25$ but if a house goes from 500k to 1.5 million then they are left behind.

I’m all in on assets like bitcoin, stocks and housing.


If you look at countries that experienced heavily debt and inflation- Venezuela, Greece, turkey- their stock market went parabolic but the average person was left behind.

Ironically this is even worse for dentists. Dentist fees do not keep up with inflation. When hygienist and front ask for more money and supplies cost more but fees are more or less the same plus or minus a few % while all the living costs increase around you- you are being screwed in your practice and your personal life.

I don’t think the new grad dentists realize how bad it’s gonna be doing fillings for 100$ in debt 500k+ with 5-10% interest rates while the cost of living exponentially increases in the coming decade.

In 2010 when I worked and made 400k I could buy a super nice lake house in my area. Today that barely can buy a shack on the lake house and barely a starter home in my area.

In 10 years dentists will still be making the relative same amount 150-200k but homes will be 2-3x and well a lake house? Haha good luck it ain’t happening
 
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Thehighwind87 said:
I don’t think we see that. Personally I think we see something of a reverse market crash up.

As govt deficit spend and go more in debt- assets like stocks equities go up a lot. Aka currency devaluation. Things will get more expensive like housing, food, lunch, school, but people that don’t have assets will be “poorer” then ever.

They might get a raise adjusted for inflation from 20$ to 25$ but if a house goes from 500k to 1.5 million then they are left behind.

I’m all in on assets like bitcoin, stocks and housing.


If you look at countries that experienced heavily debt and inflation- Venezuela, Greece, turkey- their stock market went parabolic but the average person was left behind.

Ironically this is even worse for dentists. Dentist fees do not keep up with inflation. When hygienist and front ask for more money and supplies cost more but fees are more or less the same plus or minus a few % while all the living costs increase around you- you are being screwed in your practice and your personal life.

I don’t think the new grad dentists realize how bad it’s gonna be doing fillings for 100$ in debt 500k+ with 5-10% interest rates while the cost of living exponentially increases in the coming decade.

In 2010 when I worked and made 400k I could buy a super nice lake house in my area. Today that barely can buy a shack on the lake house and barely a starter home in my area.

In 10 years dentists will still be making the relative same amount 150-200k but homes will be 2-3x and well a lake house? Haha good luck it ain’t happening
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You describe pretty accurately the run up to the debt crisis. Eventually the bond vigilantes will arrive and no one will want to buy America’s debt. When this happens, it’s game over. The entire system comes down. The welfare state will cease to be, and 50-60% of Americans are dependent on those handouts for their very existence. The riots will be epic! Hope you don’t live in a major urban center. More than half the country is incapable of providing for themselves and they aren’t going to all of a sudden gain a work ethic and marketable skills overnight. The military industrial complex will die the death it deserves. America’s age of empire will be over, and there will be power vacuums waiting to be filled across the globe. Who knows how that will all play out.

DOGE cut a hundred billion dollars and people lost their minds. It’s funny, because to keep this thing afloat, we need to cut $2+ trillion from the annual budget. Good luck getting the Uniparty on board with that.

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
You describe pretty accurately the run up to the debt crisis. Eventually the bond vigilantes will arrive and no one will want to buy America’s debt. When this happens, it’s game over. The entire system comes down. The welfare state will cease to be, and 50-60% of Americans are dependent on those handouts for their very existence. The riots will be epic! Hope you don’t live in a major urban center. More than half the country is incapable of providing for themselves and they aren’t going to all of a sudden gain a work ethic and marketable skills overnight. The military industrial complex will die the death it deserves. America’s age of empire will be over, and there will be power vacuums waiting to be filled across the globe. Who knows how that will all play out.

DOGE cut a hundred billion dollars and people lost their minds. It’s funny, because to keep this thing afloat, we need to cut $2+ trillion from the annual budget. Good luck getting the Uniparty on board with that.

Big Hoss
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The fed will buy the debt via qe. I do think your assessment has some small chance of happening but I do think the fed will buy the debt and keep the system going.

But when they do monetize the debt inflation will worsen and the poor will become poorer. But imo we can go to 200 tril of debt and keep going.

It’s just paper money at the end of the day
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
P.S. If there is a summary article focused on impacts to dentistry or dental education similar to the one we SDN staff pushed out about the Big Beautiful Bill, let us know. I'm watching ADEA, ASDA, and SNDA closely.

decisionsindentistry.com

The ‘Big, Beautiful Bill’ Also Brings a Big Tax Hike for Dentists - Decisions in Dentistry

Buried in a sweeping budget bill is a provision that could raise taxes on thousands of dental practice owners. By limiting critical tax deductions for pass-through entities, the measure threatens small practices, especially in rural and underserved communities.
decisionsindentistry.com decisionsindentistry.com
Click to expand...
This article is no longer correct. The Senate version of the BBB, which passed, does allow the pass-through entity tax deduction.
 
I asked ChatGPT: "there is now way USC dental will be able to stay open with the BBB. Who in their right mind would take out 500k in private loans on top of 200k in federal?"

It responded with: "Unless major changes happen, USC Dental's business model is not viable under BBB. The days of “borrow $650k and pray” are over. A 30–50% closure/consolidation rate among dental schools over the next decade is not unrealistic — and USC is high on the list of those at risk."
 
HPSP is about to get even more competitive and honestly, I can see the Army and Navy starting to require PGY-1 now to maximize payback time.
 
allantois said:
I don't know how America gets it so wrong..

Virtually every other developed country in the world is able to educate its citizens in medicine, dentistry, etc., without overburdening them with debt. At the same time, they don't view higher education as a money-making heist where some admins make $1 mil or more.
Click to expand...

We can. We don't want to.
 
gryffindor said:
We can. We don't want to.
Click to expand...

America is all about "maximizing things. Max debt, but max potential return. Max potential return means a BIG house and BIG investments and BIG lifestyle.

America is the poorest yet richest country. If you make it- you make it big. If you don't- you don't.

Europe tends to have a good balance of middle class. Dentists don't make the same amount like American Dentists do. Neither do their surgeons or other workers. They do have a better social safety net. But if you think you are gonna get that texas house with 2-3 acres in Paris? yeah ok no.
 
Thehighwind87 said:
America is all about "maximizing things. Max debt, but max potential return. Max potential return means a BIG house and BIG investments and BIG lifestyle.
Click to expand...

IMG_2300.webp


Thehighwind87 said:
Europe tends to have a good balance of middle class. Dentists don't make the same amount like American Dentists do. Neither do their surgeons or other workers. They do have a better social safety net. But if you think you are gonna get that texas house with 2-3 acres in Paris? yeah ok no.
Click to expand...

Europe isn’t as stable as they would have you think.

France's Fiscal Reckoning: Is The Eurozone's Second Giant Next In Line? | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
www.zerohedge.com www.zerohedge.com

Big Hoss
 
I honestly don't think this will change anything. I think predents will all freak out over the next few months, and then people will adjust to it being the new normal, applications will return to the same level. Predents are all going to be optimistic and think they're gonna be that top 1% dentist who bills insane numbers, and they'll still apply despite the tuition. We've all been warning them on here for years but they don't listen, I don't think it's any different now
 
juniordentist said:
I honestly don't think this will change anything. I think predents will all freak out over the next few months, and then people will adjust to it being the new normal, applications will return to the same level. Predents are all going to be optimistic and think they're gonna be that top 1% dentist who bills insane numbers, and they'll still apply despite the tuition. We've all been warning them on here for years but they don't listen, I don't think it's any different now
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The difference is now the Class of 2030 graduates can't do IBR on their private loans. That is a game changer.
 
juniordentist said:
I honestly don't think this will change anything. I think predents will all freak out over the next few months, and then people will adjust to it being the new normal, applications will return to the same level. Predents are all going to be optimistic and think they're gonna be that top 1% dentist who bills insane numbers, and they'll still apply despite the tuition. We've all been warning them on here for years but they don't listen, I don't think it's any different now
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YUP!

Only now there will thousands of pumped out dentists running around on 500k+ 10% co signed parent loans doing dentistry for 150-200k LOL
 
D1Bound said:
“lower and middle class people” can sign up for HPSP or NHSC or other programs like it
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Lol not everyone is qualified to join the military. In fact, with the implementation of DHA and Genesis, it's a lot harder to join.

For example, if there's a history of ADHD, it's insanely hard to join. And that's only one condition I've listed.

So don't think that it is an option for everyone.
 
lol104 said:
Lol not everyone is qualified to join the military. In fact, with the implementation of DHA and Genesis, it's a lot harder to join.

For example, if there's a history of ADHD, it's insanely hard to join. And that's only one condition I've listed.

So don't think that it is an option for everyone.
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Idk figger it out
 
How many dentists does the military need
 
tuition for 26/27 is a year away from being released. I've just been advocating to wait and see what happens.
 
Realizing these schools are now on borrowed time made me think of this old thread from 8 years ago and how far we've come. People used to justify NYU level tuition. Now, I don't think a single person on SDN advocates going to these expensive private schools. Travis tried to warn us but people weren't ready for the message. Please, please, please don't go to NYU
 
Another interesting aspect of the bill. For the 200k of federal loans students can take out, they will no longer be able to use IBR. Rather, they will have to go on the RAP plan where they pay 10% of their income for THIRTY years. Significantly worse than IBR.
 
SigmaFS said:
Private schools aren't likely generating 40% profit margins. Highly unlikely they could reduce their tuition by >10% without critical losses.
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I truly would like to see the overhead. These schools makes MILLIONS. I’m sure their overhead is high.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Another interesting aspect of the bill. For the 200k of federal loans students can take out, they will no longer be able to use IBR. Rather, they will have to go on the RAP plan where they pay 10% of their income for THIRTY years. Significantly worse than IBR.
Click to expand...
If the loan limit is $257k total, do you think health professionals are going to need RAP?
 
allantois said:
Imagine they slash it in half.. how would that make current students feel
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I actually laughed out loud reading this. Schools aren't going to drop tuition. Let's assume at the moment there are like 200 predents applying for 120 spots at a school. If this bill reduced demand, then maybe you have 150 predents applying for 120 spots. This has literally no impact on the school other than the "quality" of applicants is probably lower. Schools will only start lowering tuition if they struggle to fill their spots. And I don't see that happening any time soon. People will keep applying to dental school because at that age you don't have any financial literacy
 
SigmaFS said:
Private schools aren't likely generating 40% profit margins. Highly unlikely they could reduce their tuition by >10% without critical losses.
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They have administrative bloat. They could easily start cutting administrative jobs easily if they have to. I think its possible schools may even make more money now. They have this as an "excuse" to trim the fat in their departments so now they are going to start cutting jobs. And I think their income won't drop for another few years as it takes a bit of time for applications to actually drop (I don't think they will, I think everyone will freak out this cycle but then next cycle forget about it and the trend of applicants will go back to normal levels). Predents aren't smart enough to realise they shouldn't study dentistry
 
ortho20255 said:
This has literally no impact on the school other than the "quality" of applicants is probably lower.
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There is no way there are enough applicants who can pay out of pocket for these expensive private schools. How many applicants do you think can realistically pay 700k? NYU takes 300 per class. USC is also up there. These private schools take hundreds of students. Meanwhile, my state school was like 50 per class.
 
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