off the times front page "Long Slog for Foreign Doctors to Practice in US"

[ssdfrb]

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Members don't see this ad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/business/economy/long-slog-for-foreign-doctors-to-practice-in-us.html?hp

thoughts?


according to the comments, most of the general public seems to be unaware of the length and debt that results from attending american medical schools.

 

[swallday6400]

If the US allows foreign doctors to practice here less restrictively, all hell will break loose. There will be so many people against this (ACGME, AOA, etc), this would not be even questionably allowed.

 

[Kal EI]

But many foreign physicians and their advocates argue that the process is unnecessarily restrictive and time-consuming, particularly since America's need for doctors will expand sharply in a few short months under President Obama's health care law. They point out that medical services cost far more in the United States than elsewhere in the world, in part because of such restrictions.

Welcome to the club. It's hard for us to become physicians too.

But immigrant doctors, no matter how experienced and well trained, must run a long, costly and confusing gantlet before they can actually practice here.

? Everyone in America who practices medicine must do this.

The process usually starts with an application to a private nonprofit organization that verifies medical school transcripts and diplomas. Among other requirements, foreign doctors must prove they speak English; pass three separate steps of the United States Medical Licensing Examination; get American recommendation letters, usually obtained after volunteering or working in a hospital, clinic or research organization; and be permanent residents or receive a work visa (which often requires them to return to their home country after their training).

Hmmm, so the unique thing they have to do is have someone verify their diplomas? Sounds arduous.

The biggest challenge is that an immigrant physician must win one of the coveted slots in America's medical residency system, the step that seems to be the tightest bottleneck.

Wow. We have to do that too.

The whole process can consume upward of a decade — for those lucky few who make it through.

I'm noticing a trend.

If we recognized any and every degree, then we might as well allow American charter schools to train physicians. There would be no need for an ACGME and no regulations - just pass the exams and get a degree from anywhere.

 

[eastcoastdr]

Welcome to the club. It's hard for us to become physicians too.



? Everyone in America who practices medicine must do this.



Hmmm, so the unique thing they have to do is have someone verify their diplomas? Sounds arduous.



Wow. We have to do that too.



I'm noticing a trend.

If we recognized any and every degree, then we might as well allow American charter schools to train physicians. There would be no need for an ACGME and no regulations - just pass the exams and get a degree from anywhere.

Your missing the point..they have to do all of this AFTER already becoming an accomplished licensed physician in their home country. It's a little ridiculous especially if they trained at a legit school in another country known for producing respectable doctors (India, Britain, Japan, etc). We need more doctors in this country....we don't have enough residency spots to go around and its a waste of money to spend that training someone who already knows what they are doing. I think ECFMG or a similar organization needs to work on reviewing stats and certifications of well-known medical schools abroad to create those kind of residency waivers that Canada has. Especially for primary care fields, because thats what we need the most of. As a Carib IMG I work alongside many doctors who trained in other countries for YEARS and I always found them to be just as competent and capable as their American counterparts. There is nothing more valuable than experience, and thats what these IMGs have when they come to America as foreign trained doctors.

 

[swallday6400]

Your missing the point..they have to do all of this AFTER already becoming an accomplished licensed physician in their home country. It's a little ridiculous especially if they trained at a legit school in another country known for producing respectable doctors (India, Britain, Japan, etc). We need more doctors in this country....we don't have enough residency spots to go around and its a waste of money to spend that training someone who already knows what they are doing. I think ECFMG or a similar organization needs to work on reviewing stats and certifications of well-known medical schools abroad to create those kind of residency waivers that Canada has. Especially for primary care fields, because thats what we need the most of. As a Carib IMG I work alongside many doctors who trained in other countries for YEARS and I always found them to be just as competent and capable as their American counterparts. There is nothing more valuable than experience, and thats what these IMGs have when they come to America as foreign trained doctors.

For the same countries you are listing especially the ones in Europe, it is just as hard or even harder to become a physician there if your a practicing doctor from another country/US.

 

[pathologyDO]

For the same countries you are listing especially the ones in Europe, it is just as hard or even harder to become a physician there if your a practicing doctor from another country/US.

Right?

 

[cbrons]

Your missing the point..they have to do all of this AFTER already becoming an accomplished licensed physician in their home country. It's a little ridiculous especially if they trained at a legit school in another country known for producing respectable doctors (India, Britain, Japan, etc). We need more doctors in this country....we don't have enough residency spots to go around and its a waste of money to spend that training someone who already knows what they are doing. I think ECFMG or a similar organization needs to work on reviewing stats and certifications of well-known medical schools abroad to create those kind of residency waivers that Canada has. Especially for primary care fields, because thats what we need the most of. As a Carib IMG I work alongside many doctors who trained in other countries for YEARS and I always found them to be just as competent and capable as their American counterparts. There is nothing more valuable than experience, and thats what these IMGs have when they come to America as foreign trained doctors.

Bingo

 

[JP2740]

Your missing the point..they have to do all of this AFTER already becoming an accomplished licensed physician in their home country. It's a little ridiculous especially if they trained at a legit school in another country known for producing respectable doctors (India, Britain, Japan, etc). We need more doctors in this country....we don't have enough residency spots to go around and its a waste of money to spend that training someone who already knows what they are doing. I think ECFMG or a similar organization needs to work on reviewing stats and certifications of well-known medical schools abroad to create those kind of residency waivers that Canada has. Especially for primary care fields, because thats what we need the most of. As a Carib IMG I work alongside many doctors who trained in other countries for YEARS and I always found them to be just as competent and capable as their American counterparts. There is nothing more valuable than experience, and thats what these IMGs have when they come to America as foreign trained doctors.

....

 

[JP2740]

Your missing the point..they have to do all of this AFTER already becoming an accomplished licensed physician in their home country. It's a little ridiculous especially if they trained at a legit school in another country known for producing respectable doctors (India, Britain, Japan, etc). We need more doctors in this country....we don't have enough residency spots to go around and its a waste of money to spend that training someone who already knows what they are doing. I think ECFMG or a similar organization needs to work on reviewing stats and certifications of well-known medical schools abroad to create those kind of residency waivers that Canada has. Especially for primary care fields, because thats what we need the most of. As a Carib IMG I work alongside many doctors who trained in other countries for YEARS and I always found them to be just as competent and capable as their American counterparts. There is nothing more valuable than experience, and thats what these IMGs have when they come to America as foreign trained doctors.

You hear that guys? The 10 or so physicians this med student has seen have his seal of approval to practice high quality medicine. Thank god. We can change all the rules now.

 

[pathologyDO]

The AMGs, including myself, already have to worry about encroachment from the NPs and PAs taking up job opportunities and lowering our pay. What in the heck could be worse than having IMGs and FMGs come in and take our spots? We train/are training in this country, and we must pass these qualifications too.

On a smaller issue that just came to mind, if they made it easier for FMG/IMGs we would probably see many US students flocking to foreign schools to grab a degree, then move back and practice here. Why wouldn't they, given the easier route to get a job and probably lower schooling costs? That would give US med schools a run for their money, so the AMA and AOA would likely desire to keep the rules as is.

 

[Anastomoses]

I don't get it. What long slog?

All they have to do is take a test. And residency pays them more than they ever got paid in their own countries...and then they're set. What's the boo-hooing in the article about?

They mention it took this woman 3 years to study for the licensing while working as a nanny? Um...so study more efficiently? Step 1 is a lot of compact studying but it doesn't require genius or anything. Give me a break.

If Mr. whatever his name is was such a celebrated anesthesiologist, can't he pass a couple simple medical exams?

 

[Perrotfish]

For the same countries you are listing especially the ones in Europe, it is just as hard or even harder to become a physician there if your a practicing doctor from another country/US.

Which is stupid. I'm not sure how we should handle physicians from third world education systems, but it should be simple enough to establish reciprocal practice rights at least between the American and European medical systems.

These countries train their physicians well but then insanely underpay them. We don't and we desperately need physicians. We should be offering accelerated paths to citizenship with free English language classes to every German, Israeli, French, and English physician who want to come here.

 

[siliso]

I don't know how valid it is, being a single observation, but i felt real bad for the middle eastern fully qualified formerly practicing physician who had to start over as an observer and then an intern to practice medicine here. And I said man, that is rough, jeez it must be hard to start over...and she told me in her opinion it was NBD. You get paid as much as a US resident as you would have as a Libyan or Lebanese attending

We don't desperately need more physicians per year, as physicians. The short supply keeps us busy and in high demand, the seller's market. Go like the ABA and have more and more supply, and end up like their graduates, equally educated and indebted, digging for intern and unpaid volunteer gigs on the side, and shifts at Starbux to make up the difference.

 

[swallday6400]

Which is stupid. I'm not sure how we should handle physicians from third world education systems, but it should be simple enough to establish reciprocal practice rights at least between the American and European medical systems.

These countries train their physicians well but then insanely underpay them. We don't and we desperately need physicians. We should be offering accelerated paths to citizenship with free English language classes to every German, Israeli, French, and English physician who want to come here.

First of all, we don't need physicians that badly only in fields like primary care or/and in different geographical locations. Meaning not ROADs fields and not busy cities. Everyone is specializing nowadays so specialty fields are not the problem. Which bring me to my next point, one guy in the article was an anesthesiologist in his old country. Do you really think if he was allowed to be a anesthesiologist here he would work in a rural area or in the middle of nowhere? That's where he would be greatly needed right? Also, if you look at the anesthesiologist forum, the job market is already saturated. So please let me reiterate, most doctors from foreign countries are not going to come here to work in primary care fields end of story. The foreign doctors I've personally seen were mostly all specialists. They just want a piece of the pie. So please do us a favor and WAKE UP!
P.S.: Europe would never agree to that system. They don't care about who puts the bandage on the straightest (quality). They care about protecting their system.

 

[Nasrudin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/business/economy/long-slog-for-foreign-doctors-to-practice-in-us.html?hp

thoughts?


according to the comments, most of the general public seems to be unaware of the length and debt that results from attending an american medical school.

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting it. Yes, the public is woefully unaware. And the main thrust of the article, although it is on the whole balanced, seems to misunderstand our training as well. Creating a hassle free pipeline of foreign physicians straight into practice in the states would be corruptive to the level of professional quality and license by the public that we have earned. Even if their comprehension is lacking.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

anyone else misread the title as "long schlong" ???

EDIT: finished reading article

biased article to recruit mass IMGs for cheap labor to increase supply and lower salaries

 

[Kal EI]

Midlevels are going to fill the shortage with the way our government is going.

No need to over correct by providing an easy path for foreign physicians. There's no proof they are all excellent - maybe some are, maybe some aren't. They are just asking them to do what we do.

First of all, we don't need physicians that badly only in fields like primary care or/and in different geographical locations. Meaning not ROADs fields and not busy cities. Everyone is specializing nowadays so specialty fields are not the problem. Which bring me to my next point, one guy in the article was an anesthesiologist in his old country. Do you really think if he was allowed to be a anesthesiologist here he would work in a rural area or in the middle of nowhere? That's where he would be greatly needed right? Also, if you look at the anesthesiologist forum, the job market is already saturated. So please let me reiterate, most doctors from foreign countries are not going to come here to work in primary care fields end of story. The foreign doctors I've personally seen were mostly all specialists. They just want a piece of the pie. So please do us a favor and WAKE UP!
P.S.: Europe would never agree to that system. They don't care about who puts the bandage on the straightest (quality). They care about protecting their system.

Which is another great point. The FMG aren't looking to go practice in rural America. They want to be in the big city practicing in $pecialty medicine.

I think everyone would be fine allowing them to have instant practice rights for primary care if they sign a 10 year contract for an undeserved area.

In reality they want to come do anesthesia, dermatology, etc. This is far from a plea to serve America's healthcare needs. All these flippant remarks of "doctor shortages" aren't helpful, because it's a distribution problem. Adding more and more doctors in high populated or high paying areas doesn't solve the distribution problem.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

Midlevels are going to fill the shortage with the way our government is going.

No need to over correct by providing an easy path for foreign physicians. There's no proof they are all excellent - maybe some are, maybe some aren't. They are just asking them to do what we do.



Which is another great point. The FMG aren't looking to go practice in rural America. They want to be in the big city practicing in $pecialty medicine.

I think everyone would be fine allowing them to have instant practice rights for primary care if they sign a 10 year contract for an undeserved area.

In reality they want to come do anesthesia, dermatology, etc. This is far from a plea to serve America's healthcare needs. All these flippant remarks of "doctor shortages" aren't helpful, because it's a distribution problem. Adding more and more doctors in high populated or high paying areas doesn't solve the distribution problem.

we use this faulty reasoning when promoting affirmative action as well

"we need black doctors so they can practice primary care in their respective black communities"

 

[ssdfrb]

I hope a mod can merge this thread with the other similarly named on - I accidentally created two...

 

[valkener]

Yeah it's kind of sad when a chief doctor from Switzerland with dual citizenship specialized in GI or cardio can't get a license to work in an undeserved area in KY but would have to do residency + fellowship again.

I think there needs to be a country-specific system. If you've trained and proven yourself in high quality medical system; (western) countries, AND you have citizenship/greencard, I don't see how the current system is fair.

Of course, giving away greencards etc. is a whole new issue but we're talking about doctors from other countries that already are US citizens or permanent residents.

 

[3rdan]

The FMG aren't looking to go practice in rural America. They want to be in the big city practicing in $pecialty medicine.

I think everyone would be fine allowing them to have instant practice rights for primary care if they sign a 10 year contract for an undeserved area.

In reality they want to come do anesthesia, dermatology, etc. This is far from a plea to serve America's healthcare needs.

No truer words. 👍

 

[notbobtrustme]

Your missing the point..they have to do all of this AFTER already becoming an accomplished licensed physician in their home country. It's a little ridiculous especially if they trained at a legit school in another country known for producing respectable doctors (India, Britain, Japan, etc). We need more doctors in this country....we don't have enough residency spots to go around and its a waste of money to spend that training someone who already knows what they are doing. I think ECFMG or a similar organization needs to work on reviewing stats and certifications of well-known medical schools abroad to create those kind of residency waivers that Canada has. Especially for primary care fields, because thats what we need the most of. As a Carib IMG I work alongside many doctors who trained in other countries for YEARS and I always found them to be just as competent and capable as their American counterparts. There is nothing more valuable than experience, and thats what these IMGs have when they come to America as foreign trained doctors.

These two phrases don't mesh.

 

[CDI]

As an IMG (non-Carib) I think the setup we have currently is the best one for our citizens (...minus the secretive scoring behind the discriminatory money making scheme referred to as Step 2 CS).

While the doctors who have trained abroad may be great, the way we study for Step 1 and Step 2 CK makes you a much better doctor than you otherwise would be.

Take home point: Foreign curriculums DO NOT INTEGRATE.

Why can I confidently say this...because I am one of those physicians who is licensed abroad and have seen the difference it has made in my own medical knowledge. I can not tell you how many times while studying for Step 1 or Step 2 I thought back to how knowing this bit of integration could have helped a former patient of mine. (And I was in one of the more respected/legit medical curriculums.)

Anasto, the reason why they can't just speed it up and take it in 2 months, is because they are liiterally years removed from their preclinical years. Come back to an NBME after you've finished your intern year and see how much you still recall...it evaporates.

Also, correct about most wanting to specialize, most will not agree to primary care only. It's a major reason why IM university spots are so sought after.

 

[CDI]

I don't get it. What long slog?

All they have to do is take a test. And residency pays them more than they ever got paid in their own countries...and then they're set. What's the boo-hooing in the article about?

They mention it took this woman 3 years to study for the licensing while working as a nanny? Um...so study more efficiently? Step 1 is a lot of compact studying but it doesn't require genius or anything. Give me a break.

If Mr. whatever his name is was such a celebrated anesthesiologist, can't he pass a couple simple medical exams?

The USMLEs aren't as simple as you state. You're downplaying how difficult they really are. Remember the ones who are even eligible to take them in the US are some of the hardest working students the US produces...you are competing with them since its standardized.

 

[Mr Avante]

It won't get better for foreign medical and dental graduates anytime soon. There are enough medical schools in the US opening / slated to open that we could fill out the surplus of residency positions with domestic-trained US citizens / permanent residents. The same applies for US dental schools.

Back to topic,
This is the kind of fights I overly avert. Good day gents.

 

[link2swim06]

The USMLEs aren't as simple as you state. You're downplaying how difficult they really are. Remember the ones who are even eligible to take them in the US are some of the hardest working students the US produces...you are competing with them since its standardized.

But USMLEs is the minimum amount of knowledge needed to practice safely.

If they can't pass them then they shouldn't be able to practice.




Practicing in Europe and the US is DIFFERENT.

There are medications which are legal in one country and not legal in another.

There are devices and procedures available in Europe not available in the US (due to the FDA).

They have never been exposed to the US insurance system or our healthcare system.


Even seasoned European attendings need SOME residency training to learn how things work in our system.

 

[cbrons]

On a smaller issue that just came to mind, if they made it easier for FMG/IMGs we would probably see many US students flocking to foreign schools to grab a degree, then move back and practice here. [...] That would give US med schools a run for their money, so the AMA and AOA would likely desire to keep the rules as is.

So?

 

[CDI]

But USMLEs is the minimum amount of knowledge needed to practice safely.

If they can't pass them then they shouldn't be able to practice.




Practicing in Europe and the US is DIFFERENT.

There are medications which are legal in one country and not legal in another.

There are devices and procedures available in Europe not available in the US (due to the FDA).

They have never been exposed to the US insurance system or our healthcare system.


Even seasoned European attendings need SOME residency training to learn how things work in our system.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

[link2swim06]

I'm not disagreeing with you.

My bad...didn't read your post above the one I quoted...just replied to the one.

 

[link2swim06]

Back to topic? You seemingly misinterpret the context of my statement you bolded and quoted.

So, I take it you don't believe there has been a historical surplus of residency positions? Look at NRMP data for the last 20 years and see how many thousands of positions have gone to foreign medical graduates. That surplus will soon be filled out by domestically-trained US medical graduates, as it rightly should be. Soon, nearly all positions will be filled in the Match by US MD/DO graduates. There should be no pressing reason that the US needs to import physicians any longer if we are graduating enough here.

Filling all US residencies with US grad != enough physicians

In truth there is a huge deficit in the number of physicians especially if you project 10-20 years out.

 

[Mr Avante]

I don't disagree with you, link.

Mr Avante seems to misunderstand my post. He / she is a European pre-med undergraduate studying here in the US and probably felt offended or insecure thinking that I was attacking foreign medical graduates hence "[t]his is the kind of fights I overly avert". What fight? There is no fight. Misdirected facepalmage, brah.

Let me expand upon the 'surplus' I was referring to for Mr Avante: the 'surplus' spots that Caribbean USIMGs and legit FMGs typically procure will be shifted to US MD / DO graduates as their numbers increase this decade. Reference for awareness: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475200

Nope.
And, there is not a "Surplus" of residencies. I'll just go ahead and believe you tried to write shortage.

 

[gethscout]

Nope.
And, there is not a "Surplus" of residencies. I'll just go ahead and believe you tried to write shortage.

Ummm, dude... 😕 We all get that there will be a shortage.
Outrun is saying that the 'leftover' or 'surplus' or 'extra' or whatever spots that the Carib grads and FMG applicants go for will be filled with American medical grads in the future. Top FMGs will be okay.
The sh#t will really hit the fan once there are more American medical grads then available spots.

 

[cbrons]

If the US allows foreign doctors to practice here less restrictively, all hell will break loose. There will be so many people against this (ACGME, AOA, etc), this would not be even questionably allowed.

Lol. The AMA, AOA, et al are self interested political lobbies. Very little of what they say should be payed any attention to by legislators.

Heres a fact: US med schools aren't better than other 1st world foreign med schools. In fact, some foreign med schools are muvh higher quality than a lot of DO schools and some public MD schools as well.

If you wanna make foreign MD grads from 1st world countries take the USMLE, fine. But no residency should be required at all whatsoever. That's a clear scam for hospitals to get cheap labor and for the pigs in the alphabet soup lobby groups to keep the supply of physicians artificially low.

"But wait, they're addressing the shortage by opening new American med schools!!!'!',?!?"
Great, new DO "schools" that are just a branch campus of another branch campus of an unknown college that is accredited before they even hire instructors who do no research or even have a building (VCOM-S ring a bell?). Yeah, but go ahead and pretend that produces physicians on the level of a Cambridge or Karolinska.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Lol. The AMA, AOA, et al are self interested political lobbies. Very little of what they say should be payed any attention to by legislators.

Heres a fact: US med schools aren't better than other 1st world foreign med schools. In fact, some foreign med schools are muvh higher quality than a lot of DO schools and some public MD schools as well.

If you wanna make foreign MD grads from 1st world countries take the USMLE, fine. But no residency should be required at all whatsoever. That's a clear scam for hospitals to get cheap labor and for the pigs in the alphabet soup lobby groups to keep the supply of physicians artificially low.

"But wait, they're addressing the shortage by opening new American med schools!!!'!',?!?"
Great, new DO "schools" that are just a branch campus of another branch campus of an unknown college that is accredited before they even hire instructors who do no research or even have a building (VCOM-S ring a bell?). Yeah, but go ahead and pretend that produces physicians on the level of a Cambridge or Karolinska.

The way we practice medicine and the way Europe practices medicine is very different. As another said, there are different drugs that can be prescribed, different procedures that are allowed, etc etc. At the very least, that requires an intern year to understand the difference. Secondly, most specialties in America are expected to blow past the 40 hour week and never look back. European doctors, on the other hand, are basically hamstrung to a 40 hour week (or less) even as residents. Again, this requires at least an intern year to understand the difference.

And that's if you come from a legit school overseas. If you are coming from Uncle Romanov's School of Medicine from Romania, then we really don't know what kind of training you've received (if any) from that school. So yes, the barriers to practice should be high. Likewise, if I want to pick up and go practice in Austrailia, I'll have to complete w/e their equivalent of licensing exams and residency/internship. It's the same in nearly every country in the world. Unless you are going to some 3rd world ****hole, any physician will need to pass residency/licensing/language tests in order to practice. If do you want to practice in some 3rd world country, then the best medical degree you can have is green.

 

[FutureDO2016]

Most foreign medical graduates should think of working in Austrailia or Canada or Europe because the process can be time-consuming and hard to land a residency spot in the U.S. Plus, if their goal was to work in the U.S., then perhaps, they should wait to get their medical education here and then getting a residency will be easier. Perhaps they come here on student visa to get their college training and medical education here.

In a few years, more DO and MD graduates will take even unpopular residency spots giving FMGs a harder time to match.

Their education may be superb but they need at least a year to receive training here to learn the differences in culture, drugs, and treatment rationale that may be slightly different abroad.

It will take years to get educated and trained but in some countries, medical school starts right after high school like in Europe, Spain and India and they have a 5-6 year medical school/training program. Thus, they save 4 years of college that they could use later to study hard and get top scores on board scores.

 

[Anastomoses]

Lol. The AMA, AOA, et al are self interested political lobbies. Very little of what they say should be payed any attention to by legislators.

Heres a fact: US med schools aren't better than other 1st world foreign med schools. In fact, some foreign med schools are muvh higher quality than a lot of DO schools and some public MD schools as well.

If you wanna make foreign MD grads from 1st world countries take the USMLE, fine. But no residency should be required at all whatsoever. That's a clear scam for hospitals to get cheap labor and for the pigs in the alphabet soup lobby groups to keep the supply of physicians artificially low.

I like your post but how about we go halfsies and let them do a half residency - at least to acclimate? 🙂 They never got the chance to do American style rotations and they will certainly need to integrate their style/learning with ours.

It will take years to get educated and trained but in some countries, medical school starts right after high school like in Europe, Spain and India and they have a 5-6 year medical school/training program. Thus, they save 4 years of college that they could use later to study hard and get top scores on board scores.

Yep. In fact, I think most foreign schools give the students more time to digest information...probably making them better doctors at graduation. And as you pointed out, then they have plenty of time to study for the boards.

 

[cbrons]

The way we practice medicine and the way Europe practices medicine is very different. As another said, there are different drugs that can be prescribed, different procedures that are allowed, etc etc. At the very least, that requires an intern year to understand the difference.

Are you kidding me? At most it requires a subscription to Epocrates or a phone call to an insurance company

But go ahead and keep kidding yourselves that such a ridiculous high barrier to entry into the guild of medicine is necessary while being backdoored by night/internet school "Mid Levels" to fill the void.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I don't get it. The US is one of the most lenient in terms of letting foreign doctors come to our country to practice medicine I thought. Commenters are saying examples like UK --> Australia = no re-residency, just straight into attending practice. Is that true?

 

[evilbooyaa]

Which is stupid. I'm not sure how we should handle physicians from third world education systems, but it should be simple enough to establish reciprocal practice rights at least between the American and European medical systems.

These countries train their physicians well but then insanely underpay them. We don't and we desperately need physicians. We should be offering accelerated paths to citizenship with free English language classes to every German, Israeli, French, and English physician who want to come here.

That's because they don't make their med students pay tuition in some of these countries. Do you think its fair that someone who grows up in Germany comes to the US with 0 debt and starts making the same amount of money as a US AMG? Germany most likely has requirements about citizenship or being a resident of the country prior to offering free school tuition.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Letting more IMGs in without having to do STEPs or redo residency would lower the quality of physicians for everyone. I have no doubt that many foreign physicians are excellent. However, in countries such as India and Russia, it has become possible to buy your way into medical school and to a degree. Which is fine, but the people who buy their MBBS' should still be expected to prove competence before they can practice here.


The government would love to bring in more IMGs, because the only reason they haven't dropped physician reimbursement below 100K/year is that all the American dudes would retire and quit. Foreign physicians who got their med school paid for by the government and spent less time training than us would be fine working for such low rates.

Fortunately, the last thing the government wants to do is spend more money on healthcare and GME positions, so we have little to fear.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Foreign physicians who come to the US are motivated by nothing but avarice. In many cases they abandoned a country that paid for their medical training because they wanted yet more money.

Does anyone really think that if we allow more of them, they will go where physicians are needed (primary care in underserved areas)? Lol. As people have said here, the Radiologist from the UK will go do Radiology in NYC, not Family Medicine in flyover country.

 

[CDI]

However, in countries such as India and Russia, it has become possible to buy your way into medical school and to a degree. Which is fine, but the people who buy their MBBS' should still be expected to prove competence before they can practice here.

Sounds like the Caribbean...

Plenty of people try to "buy" their degree and fall flat on their face and don't pass the exams. My class had a final year pass rate of 61%, several dropped out completely. Not as easy to "buy" a degree as you might think.

That being said I agree completely that the standards the US has set are appropriate.

 

[Mr Avante]

Sounds like the Caribbean...

Plenty of people try to "buy" their degree and fall flat on their face and don't pass the exams. My class had a final year pass rate of 61%, several dropped out completely. Not as easy to "buy" a degree as you might think.

That being said I agree completely that the standards the US has set are appropriate.

That reminds me how a person can literally buy a medical degree for $5,000 USD.👍

 

[CDI]

That reminds me how a person can literally buy a medical degree for $5,000 USD.👍

Where is that possible?

 

[evilbooyaa]

Where is that possible?

Not sure where, but it was mentioned in the DO vs Carribean thread in the osteopathic forum.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

affirmative action gives people MDs based on the color of their skin

 

[notbobtrustme]

affirmative action gives people MDs based on the color of their skin

[citation needed]

 

[IJL]

[citation needed]

Uhhhh... No, just look around.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Uhhhh... No, just look around.

I see students who have to pass the classes, pass the boards, pass their clerkships and match just like everyone else. No one is getting free diplomas just for showing up.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I see students who have to pass the classes, pass the boards, pass their clerkships and match just like everyone else. No one is getting free diplomas just for showing up.

Semantics.

An overwhelming majority of people that start medical school (eventually) finish it due to 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances. Once you get into medical school, if you don't royally screw up, you will become an MD/DO. AA makes it easier to get into medical school. Transitive property. I get why it needs to be there, but we all need to just accept it and admit where it has flaws (race vs socioeconomic requirements, for one).