Official 2012-2013 Help Me Rank thread

[Amonymus]

Thanks everyone, your responses have been helpful, mostly in telling me what I already knew. Splik, are you a resident at CHA? About Yale, I liked it a lot but was not jazzed about six months of medicine (would prefer less or in peds). Brown and CHA seem on par lifestyle wise, but CHA felt a notch more intellectually rigorous. That said, Brown is the only one of all these with a free standing child psych hospital (Bradley) which makes it a very child oriented program.

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[billypilgrim37]

MGH and Yale have the strongest child psychiatry departments in that group.

Would definitely disagree. These are all four stellar programs. I would say Brown is a better child program than Yale. Just like "insert absurdly hot supermodel here" is hotter than "insert another absurdly hot supermodel here." It's a matter of personal taste (Hint: always go with the Brunette).

Cambridge is quite unique and there's nothing like it, so it's not really a matter of "how good is it" rather than "yes or no I want to be a play therapy ninja". And any of these general adult programs could put you in slam dunk range for going to any of these four child fellowships (if you decided after 3 years your decision was wrong, which you probably won't).

If I had to personally pick out of those four, I'd go Brown, Cambridge, MGH, Yale. You could randomly put these four programs in any order and it would be just as valid.

My rank list 5 years ago was 1) Where I'm at, 2) Cambridge, 3) MGH.

 

[splik]

Would definitely disagree. These are all four stellar programs. I would say Brown is a better child program than Yale. Just like "insert absurdly hot supermodel here" is hotter than "insert another absurdly hot supermodel here." It's a matter of personal taste (Hint: always go with the Brunette).

...because the blonde is into scat

 

[billypilgrim37]

...because the blonde is into scat

I figured this was a reference I wasn't getting, so I googled "the blonde is into scat". I don't think I am old enough (or will ever be old enough) to look at most of the links that came up. (NSFW)

So I still don't get the reference, but neither do I want to keep looking.

 

[splik]

oh no! you really shouldn't have googled that, i dread to think what came up!

 

[shan564]

I figured this was a reference I wasn't getting, so I googled "the blonde is into scat". I don't think I am old enough (or will ever be old enough) to look at most of the links that came up. (NSFW)

So I still don't get the reference, but neither do I want to keep looking.

Now I'm tempted to google that just to find out what came up...

Splik, are you a resident at CHA?

A lot of people here don't like to give hints to their true identity, but to answer the question that you're trying to ask, he's at a program that's very different from CHA in most ways.

 

[member2721]

My rank list 5 years ago was 1) Where I'm at, 2) Cambridge, 3) MGH.

Where are you at? PM me if you don't want to publicize, but I really respect your post- reflects very thoughtful responses. I am also very interested in academic child.

 

[member2721]

so it's not really a matter of "how good is it" rather than "yes or no I want to be a play therapy ninja".

Can I play therapy ninja at:

Mount Sinai
UW Seattle
NYU
MGH McLean
Stanford
UPenn

And where would I be the most ninja?

 

[splik]

it's not about playing therapy ninja, it's about being play therapy ninja.. read Dibs in Search of Self- you would not be a play therapy ninja at any of those other programs (though i think they do a bit of that at mt sinai iirc)

 

[member2721]

My gut tells me that I'll be happiest at Mount Sinai.

My brain tells me that Sinai does not have the best reputation, is clinically less rigorous and limited, and while they have strong elite researchers like Stanford, it is a small program and not for the academically undifferentiated. Moreover, they have a small child division, especially compared to NYU MGH and UCLA.

But my gut tells me I will be happiest at Sinai. A combination of a well-funded department, strong leadership, a family of residents, and living in Upper East side in Manhattan.

Mind vs gut? Forty-eight48 hours before rank deadline and would really appreciate your collective guidance =)

 

[vistaril]

My gut tells me that I'll be happiest at Mount Sinai.

My brain tells me that Sinai does not have the best reputation, is clinically less rigorous and limited, and while they have strong researchers is a small program and not for the academically undifferentiated.

But my gut tells me I will be happiest at Sinai. A combination of a well-funded department, strong leadership, a family of residents, and living in Upper East side in Manhattan.

Mind vs gut? Would appreciate advice. 48 hours before rank deadline and would really appreciate your collective guidance =)

Sinai is a perfectly good program with a fine reputation.

 

[shan564]

Experienced people say that you'll be happiest if you go with your gut, but I feel like that might be a self-fulfilling prophecy... we're usually happy where we end up, so we say that our gut was right. But you know yourself better than we do.

Personally, I'm not convinced that you can get a reliable "gut" feeling based entirely on a 1-day visit during which everybody is trying hard to recruit you. My strongest "gut feelings" were at places where the tour guide resident was just a really good salesman, and my weakest "gut feelings" were at places where the tour guide resident was arrogant/annoying. I went to some places where the "gut feeling" was completely tainted by some random event (i.e. the interview day was shuffled around because some people had to reschedule due to weather, so everything became more unpleasant).

Of course, Sinai is a great program... but I think that gut feeling should only be relied upon if it doesn't go against what your head tells you. In other words, "programs A and B are both equivalent by most measures, and I think that A might be slightly better because of ____, but my gut says B."

 

[member2721]

gut feeling should only be relied upon if it doesn't go against what your head tells you

Thanks shan. I appreciate your thoughts, and my mind says to agree with you. And my gut isn't feeling so bad either =)

 

[member2721]

Last minute rank list angst. Without revealing too much about my tentative order and myself (mildly paranoid), my priorities are: psychotherapy, child and adolescent, and lifestyle. Also important: intellectual environment and prestige. Not all that interested in C/L and research.

Sounds like Cambridge will be a fantastic fit.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'd go further and say that you have to be happy in your personal life to actually get what you're supposed to get out of residency. Residency is not a passive process where going to the right place will make you the best you can possibly be. It's not like med school where there are grades and tests and the carrot of getting into your first choice residency to motivate you.

Learning to be a good psychiatrist is a lot of work, and if you're not happy and motivated you might not go the extra mile and learn what you need to learn. If you're not motivated to read the endless reading for psychotherapy training after work, look up the drug interactions of your patients, or look things up in pubmed and google scholar, you won't learn what you need to learn no matter how optimal the setting may be.

Wholeheartedly agree with this ^^^.

It's easy to skate by and be a poor psychiatrist. If you want to limit your thought process to black & white, keep things simple, rely on a small set of solutions, be satisfied with "pretty good" and (most importantly) try to get power trips and ego rubs through your work-life. You will notice a fair number of recent posts around this forum that are evidence of this.

It's hard to be a good psychiatrist. And there is no "special sauce" at the top programs where you can rest on your laurels and let the faculty give you a brain dump. The top programs tend to be top programs only because they recruit the ambitious and motivated folks who want to go the extra mile for themselves, their patients, their program, and their field. But as BofA says, it's not a passive process and you have to work it.

The folks who are most cynical and jaded (other than the grown kids who wear it as an affectation) are those that put all of their eggs into their work basket. The residents who tend to be most miserable about their job (and often at their job) are folks who ended up choosing the program whose name they thought would be most impressive at dinner parties at the expense of the rest of their life.

Trust me, that's often how it works. When you sacrifice hobbies, friendships, passions, culture, and a sense of community all for the sake of a job, even a great job, you tend to resent that job, even if only at an unconscious level. And when you resent a job, you don't do it well. You would likely become a better clinician being satisfied at a middle-of-the-road program than you would being bitter at a top one. This is not limited to psychiatry nor is it limited to medicine.

When you make your rank lists, be sure to look at where you'll be happiest. Happy residents work harder and smarter and learn more and become better clinicians. The jaded and cynical residents are often the ones that pull out their hair first at discharge frustrations and settle instead of becoming creative. They often get burnt out sooner and curb their learning at the "good enough level." They are collectively pretty much just unpleasant to be around, and get that reputation, making it harder for them to get the choice jobs or moonlighting gigs. Look at program reputation as just one piece of the pie. I've never heard residents say, "I wish I'd chosen Acme Ivy instead of this place where I'm happy."

 

[futuredrpsych]

Last minute rank list angst. Without revealing too much about my tentative order and myself (mildly paranoid), my priorities are: psychotherapy, child and adolescent, and lifestyle. Also important: intellectual environment and prestige. Not all that interested in C/L and research.

I'm going through a similar dilemma and am leaning more towards going with the program that seems stronger in psychotherapy vs C&A. My reasoning is that I feel like my time in residency is better spent learning psychotherapy rather than doing more electives in C&A which I'm 99% certain I'm going to do a fellowship in anyway. Plus I figure that since I don't have to do residency at the place I want to do my C&A fellowship in, I can choose the strongest C&A program when I'm actually going to do C&A. At least that's my thought process this morning...

 

[Amonymus]

Wholeheartedly agree with this ^^^.

It's easy to skate by and be a poor psychiatrist. If you want to limit your thought process to black & white, keep things simple, rely on a small set of solutions, be satisfied with "pretty good" and (most importantly) try to get power trips and ego rubs through your work-life. You will notice a fair number of recent posts around this forum that are evidence of this.

It's hard to be a good psychiatrist. And there is no "special sauce" at the top programs where you can rest on your laurels and let the faculty give you a brain dump. The top programs tend to be top programs only because they recruit the ambitious and motivated folks who want to go the extra mile for themselves, their patients, their program, and their field. But as BofA says, it's not a passive process and you have to work it.

The folks who are most cynical and jaded (other than the grown kids who wear it as an affectation) are those that put all of their eggs into their work basket. The residents who tend to be most miserable about their job (and often at their job) are folks who ended up choosing the program whose name they thought would be most impressive at dinner parties at the expense of the rest of their life.

Trust me, that's often how it works. When you sacrifice hobbies, friendships, passions, culture, and a sense of community all for the sake of a job, even a great job, you tend to resent that job, even if only at an unconscious level. And when you resent a job, you don't do it well. You would likely become a better clinician being satisfied at a middle-of-the-road program than you would being bitter at a top one. This is not limited to psychiatry nor is it limited to medicine.

When you make your rank lists, be sure to look at where you'll be happiest. Happy residents work harder and smarter and learn more and become better clinicians. The jaded and cynical residents are often the ones that pull out their hair first at discharge frustrations and settle instead of becoming creative. They often get burnt out sooner and curb their learning at the "good enough level." They are collectively pretty much just unpleasant to be around, and get that reputation, making it harder for them to get the choice jobs or moonlighting gigs. Look at program reputation as just one piece of the pie. I've never heard residents say, "I wish I'd chosen Acme Ivy instead of this place where I'm happy."

Very well put, thank you.

 

[benlinus]

Wholeheartedly agree with this ^^^.

It's easy to skate by and be a poor psychiatrist. If you want to limit your thought process to black & white, keep things simple, rely on a small set of solutions, be satisfied with "pretty good" and (most importantly) try to get power trips and ego rubs through your work-life. You will notice a fair number of recent posts around this forum that are evidence of this.

It's hard to be a good psychiatrist. And there is no "special sauce" at the top programs where you can rest on your laurels and let the faculty give you a brain dump. The top programs tend to be top programs only because they recruit the ambitious and motivated folks who want to go the extra mile for themselves, their patients, their program, and their field. But as BofA says, it's not a passive process and you have to work it.

The folks who are most cynical and jaded (other than the grown kids who wear it as an affectation) are those that put all of their eggs into their work basket. The residents who tend to be most miserable about their job (and often at their job) are folks who ended up choosing the program whose name they thought would be most impressive at dinner parties at the expense of the rest of their life.

Trust me, that's often how it works. When you sacrifice hobbies, friendships, passions, culture, and a sense of community all for the sake of a job, even a great job, you tend to resent that job, even if only at an unconscious level. And when you resent a job, you don't do it well. You would likely become a better clinician being satisfied at a middle-of-the-road program than you would being bitter at a top one. This is not limited to psychiatry nor is it limited to medicine.

When you make your rank lists, be sure to look at where you'll be happiest. Happy residents work harder and smarter and learn more and become better clinicians. The jaded and cynical residents are often the ones that pull out their hair first at discharge frustrations and settle instead of becoming creative. They often get burnt out sooner and curb their learning at the "good enough level." They are collectively pretty much just unpleasant to be around, and get that reputation, making it harder for them to get the choice jobs or moonlighting gigs. Look at program reputation as just one piece of the pie. I've never heard residents say, "I wish I'd chosen Acme Ivy instead of this place where I'm happy."

No one knows where they are going to be happy. It's all speculation. Until they are actually there. That's the dilemma. They may just as well have been happy at the Acme Ivy or happier at the Acme Ivy, than where they currently are. Which makes your last statement seem null. People overthink and need to live a little. Get off the klonopin and onto the treadmill.

 

[benlinus]

Thanks shan. I appreciate your thoughts, and my mind says to agree with you. And my gut isn't feeling so bad either =)

Just make your own decision. Jesus Christ...

 

[notdeadyet]

No one knows where they are going to be happy.

People have a much better feel for whether a particular location is likely to make them happy than something as nebulous as "prestige." And if folks don't know what makes them happy, they have bigger problems than their residency selection.

 

[benlinus]

People have a much better feel for whether a particular location is likely to make them happy than something as nebulous as "prestige." And if folks don't know what makes them happy, they have bigger problems than their residency selection.

You're speculating again with the whole "have a much better feel" nonsense. People may "know" what makes them happy but will it make them happy? I know doritos makes me happy but i just ate a bag and I'm not happy. So it's not what I know, it's what I experience.

People can speculate. You're right.

 

[shan564]

Just make your own decision. Jesus Christ...

I think it's perfectly reasonable to seek out third-party opinions to make sure that you're not about to make a mistake. Our own opinions are often tainted by factors that seem really cool, but aren't actually that important in the grand scheme of things...

 

[notdeadyet]

You're speculating again with the whole "have a much better feel" nonsense. People may "know" what makes them happy but will it make them happy?

Sorry, brother, I left these kinds of conversations way back at the dorms. I'm sure you'll find others with this kind of time though....

 

[lsk87]

if you had to choose between baylor and ut houston, which would you choose? and why?

 

[shan564]

Probably Baylor, for the following reasons:

1. Bigger research faculty
2. Yudofsky, one of the biggest names in psychopharm
3. Gabbard, one of the biggest names in psychotherapy
4. Menninger Clinic
5. Huge new neuropsych department with a $25 million anonymous donation
6. Wider name recognition, even though that probably isn't too important if you're planning to stay in Houston
7. International electives


But that's just me. Your interests might be different.

 

[lsk87]

the only thing holding me back is that baylor is notorious for working their residents...

 

[shan564]

the only thing holding me back is that baylor is notorious for working their residents...

Well, it depends on your career plans. If you're looking to be a community psychiatrist, then you probably wouldn't benefit much from Baylor's resources. If you're planning on a career in academia, those extra work hours will probably help you build relationships and the like.

 

[splik]

Probably Baylor, for the following reasons:
2. Yudofsky, one of the biggest names in psychopharm

really? yudofsky has made his career as an administrator and effective schmoozer (someone didn't just decide to dump $25million in his hands) and as a prolific writer of bad textbooks. what he is not is some big time academic. when was the last time he even did any research or published any original contributions of significance?

 

[shan564]

really? yudofsky has made his career as an administrator and effective schmoozer (someone didn't just decide to dump $25million in his hands) and as a prolific writer of bad textbooks. what he is not is some big time academic. when was the last time he even did any research or published any original contributions of significance?

Ha... I'm not experienced enough to determine that his textbook is "bad"... and regardless of how well he schmoozed, the anonymous $25 million grant was still quite useful...

 

[LucidDreaming]

Any thoughts about Baylor vs. Northwestern?

 

[ConfettiMD]

Any thoughts about Baylor vs. Northwestern?

Northwestern is smaller, pretty cush, the PD is super sweet and treats the residents like they are family. A lot tend to think that your experience may not be as diverse as elsewhere, but I don't think it would hinder you greatly. If you're looking to become a private practice psychiatrist in the midwest, it might actually benefit you. They've recruited a few big researchers but I think most of the residents are more clinically-oriented.
BCM is larger, probably less hand-holding than NW, with a variety of training sites and more varied psychopathology/socioeconomic spectrum. I think this is more of a roll-up-your-sleeves, down-and-dirty program than NW. But you'll also get exposure to private psych @ Meninger and there's a Houston area psychoanalytic institute if that's more your thing. Tons of research going on in the medical center, not sure how accessible it is to residents--maybe someone else can comment on that.
Name recognition is about equal with both, I'd think.
The cities are very different and this is probably the key to how you should rank--do you want to have a car? You can live on the rail and commute into the medical center in Houston, but you need a car for everything else. You can get by on public transportation alone easily in Chicago. Chicago has oppressive cold while Houston has oppressive heat. Both cities are affordable with pretty good cost of living. I think both are awesome cities.

 

[LucidDreaming]

Thank you!

 

[shan564]

Assuming no family ties, I'd take Houston over Chicago. Much cheaper, comparable size/diversity, and warm. I think oppressive heat is more livable than oppressive cold.

 

[notdeadyet]

Assuming no family ties, I'd take Houston over Chicago. Much cheaper, comparable size/diversity, and warm.

I wouldn't call Houston's diverse,at least not compared to Chicago.

 

[LucidDreaming]

Houston was very diverse. I felt like I was on a tropical vacation...with the smells and the spicy food.

 

[shan564]

I wouldn't call Houston's diverse,at least not compared to Chicago.

According to Wikipedia...

Houston: "According to the U.S. Census 2000, the racial makeup of the city was 49.3% White (including Hispanic or Latino), 25.3% Black or African American, 0.4% Native American, 5.3% Asian, 0.1&% Pacific Islander, 16.5% from other races, and 3.2% from two or more races. 37% of the population was Hispanic or Latino of any race."

Chicago: "The racial makeup of the city in 2010 was 32% black, 45% white, 31% non Hispanic white, 28% Hispanic of any race, 5% Asian, and 3% from two or more races."


That's Houston in 2000 vs. Chicago in 2010. Sounds pretty close overall.



Of course, that only looks at the cities and not the metro areas. Here's a recent study comparing diversity of different metro areas in the US:
http://www.s4.brown.edu/us2010/Data/Report/report08292012.pdf

Greater Houston comes in at #8, and Chicagoland comes in at #20.

I think Chicago was a much more diverse city 100 years ago, when there were huge ethnic enclaves for every different part of Europe... but now, those groups have all just melted together. And then 40-50 years ago, it developed ethnic enclaves for every different part of Asia... but it's been a less attractive destination in the last couple of decades because of the prices (and the fact that Houston is a reasonable alternative that's cheaper and warmer).

 

[Superpsych]

Where would you place these in order? Please list reasons why.

Here is my ROL

1. University of South Florida
2. University of Florida
3. Hennepin County
4. Advocate Lutheran
5. Creighton
6. SIU SOM
7. St. Mary Mercy
8. St. Elizabeth's Boston

Again just for fun as this is all done at this point.

 

[shan564]

Where would you place these in order? Please list reasons why.

Here is my ROL

1. University of South Florida
2. University of Florida
3. Hennepin County
4. Advocate Lutheran
5. Creighton
6. SIU SOM
7. St. Mary Mercy
8. St. Elizabeth's Boston

Again just for fun as this is all done at this point.

If you're interested in research/academia, I'd put UF at the top of that list without question. I was pleasantly surprised by their program and would have been happy to end up there. I didn't rank them near the top because I didn't think that it was the best program for my own personal career interests, but I would have had a certain pleasure if I'd matched there, since I loved the general feel of the place.

If you're not interested in research/academia, I'd put Hennepin at the top because of the PD. Unless you're very averse to cold weather.

If you're interested in location primarily, I'd put USF at the top. Tampa is a cool place with great weather.


Places I'd definitely not put near the top (in no particular order):
Advocate - I know some people love Chicago, but I think it's only a cool place to live if you're in downtown, just north of downtown (as far north as Wrigley), or on the lake shore in the northern half of the city.. The only training programs in those areas (IIRC) are UIC and Northwestern. If you're not in those areas, you don't get the best of Chicago, but you still have to deal with the traffic, the weather, the prices (high by Midwestern standards), and the fact that it takes 1039482 hours to drive anywhere because the city is so spread-out. For me, all of that is bearable because I have family in Chicago... but I wouldn't want to live here long-term.

Creighton - I like the Midwest, but I shudder at the thought of living in Omaha unless you have family within a couple of hours.

SIU - I interviewed there and they gave me a 1-hour handwritten "psychological mindedness exam" at the end of the interview day which left quite a sour taste in my mouth. Add that to the fact that Springfield is a painfully boring place.

St. E - my complaints about Boston are the same as my complaints about Chicago, except that almost everything is worse in Boston. Bad roads, bad traffic, obscene real estate prices, excessively spread-out... and add the fact that, for some strange reason, the culture of the city is very unfriendly. All of that would be bearable in exchange for the benefit of being at Harvard, but not for any other place.

St. Mary - Detroit is Detroit.