Happy new year everyone! Since I've finished most of my interviews, I was getting a bit impatient and decided to start the official thread. 
Official 2016 Rank Order List & "Help Me Rank" Thread
- Thread starter chekov
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You say you don't want a workhorse program, so, uh, you maybe wanna drop Duke to the bottom of your list.
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We're not going to be disposed to advising people who haven't posted their own reviews. and at any rate, unless you post your own impressions of programs or what you liked and didn't like, then this is a worthless exercise.
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Ditto splik's comment.
If folks can't be bothered to help out future and current applicants by posting their interview impressions, I'm not going to spend much time helping walk them through a rank list.
It's just a time thing. I'm more inclined to help SDNers who are inclined to help others.
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If folks can't be bothered to help out future and current applicants by posting their interview impressions, I'm not going to spend much time helping walk them through a rank list.
It's just a time thing. I'm more inclined to help SDNers who are inclined to help others.
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I don't know enough about the programs on your list that I didn't interview at (new york programs, penn programs, yale and brown) to give feedback about them, especially without your impressions.
I will say that Emory came across as a higher-workload program, although not as bad as Duke. UNC and Longwood would be a little better, but still rigorous. Longwood is a place to be for international, cutting edge, and future directions of psychiatry, but I'd imagine that isn't unique to Longwood. Hard to be more any more helpful or specific.
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Separately, I'd appreciate some help with my rank list, especially with regard to my top 4. They're all very close, but separate most easily into two pairs. The overall theme is quality of training vs. happiness at a given location. All four spots cater to my (somewhat atypical) research interests. I'm aware that a lot of this is just determining what I truly value, but if anyone has additional information on programs that I'm comparing, I'd certainly find it helpful! Things certainly have melded together a bit as the season progressed.
Things that are important to me:
* Solid medicine training.
* Strong CL service.
* Slightly more psychodynamic vs. manualized.
* Overall quality training (broadly).
* Good single life / good quality of life.
* I'm a more Mountain West sort of person, dislike the Northeast vibe.
Stanford vs. Longwood:
I liked the overall vibe at Stanford, both in terms of the training program and the location/surrounding area. I also have a number of non-medical friends in the bay area (although more SF than SV). Overall I think the training there would be solid, but the medicine training seems relatively shallow and they are more focused on CBT/DBT than psychodynamic therapy. Quality of life seemed very high except for the part where residents were starting to have trouble affording rent -- supposedly a new 6k raise is taking effect, which will alleviate the CoL disparity vs. Boston (although both places are ridiculous compared to my other picks.)
Having rotated at Longwood, I know that I really like the faculty and residents there. Lots of great research opportunities and interesting mentors. Very solid training including CL and psychodynamic, and probably the most solid medicine training of any program I interviewed at (almost to the point of being a slight negative factor.) Relatively more workload heavy as compared to Stanford. Not a fan of the Northeast.
Utah vs. Vanderbilt:
These two mirror the Stanford vs. Longwood debate, except that they're even more closely tied. I think the quality of life / vibe at Utah is better but the training at Vanderbilt seems stronger. Vanderbilt would be closer to my folks, which is a plus.
Currently something like:
Longwood
Stanford
Vanderbilt
Utah
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UTSW - Excellent training, diverse opportunities good pay vs. CoL
UNC - Not a fan of their call schedule (random overnight shifts), otherwise again great training
USC-Palmetto - Very relaxed although the "no overnights" does come with the "pager call / home call" caveat; seems like more of a place for people "from there" and typically more family oriented.
Emory - Didn't have a great experience on interview day. Residents felt program was very work heavy. Home call where it's expected you'll head in to do admissions = just call it overnight call with no next morning off.
Thanks!
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I believe you need to look upon yourself to find "your" rank list. The knowledge and feelings are within you.......
I think it is a very personal thing and only you can truly answer to that list.
.I think it is a very personal thing and only you can truly answer to that list.
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But, if need more info about programs and opinions, then I feel there is obviously a place for that.
But, your list is your list.
But, your list is your list.
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I believe this thread is here to help us when introspection just isn't cutting it.
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Sorry, I just do not trust strangers to help me make my list. To gather info, etc.....but not make my list.
There is the obvious stuff on paper and set up differences but most of my decisions have been made on m feelings and gut once I got it down to a certain point.
There is the obvious stuff on paper and set up differences but most of my decisions have been made on m feelings and gut once I got it down to a certain point.
Point taken, @splik and @notdeadyet. After looking at the interview review threads from the last few years, I felt that there wasn't much for me to add without being redundant. I understand that a different perspective can help others so I will post something later next week regarding my impressions.
@FlowRate -- huh, I didn't think of Duke > Emory in terms of workload (I'll have to look back on the schedule in more detail). I thought the residents at Emory were a pretty cool bunch during the pre-interview dinner, but found them less happy and more tired on the interview day. Also didn't have a great experience on interview day. Have heard that Emory is more psychotherapy minded than some other programs in the South, but I did not interview much in the South so this is all hearsay. PGY-2s didn't feel like the workload was unreasonable (perhaps they restructured the schedule in the last few years?). Duke also has some great research, global psychiatry initiatives. Some residents said they chose Duke over UNC for what they felt were better reputation and opportunities. Some at UNC might say the same about UNC. For the training that you're looking for, Longwood seems like a good match except for the fact that it's on the Northeast. What is your impression of the "Northeast vibe?"
@FlowRate -- huh, I didn't think of Duke > Emory in terms of workload (I'll have to look back on the schedule in more detail). I thought the residents at Emory were a pretty cool bunch during the pre-interview dinner, but found them less happy and more tired on the interview day. Also didn't have a great experience on interview day. Have heard that Emory is more psychotherapy minded than some other programs in the South, but I did not interview much in the South so this is all hearsay. PGY-2s didn't feel like the workload was unreasonable (perhaps they restructured the schedule in the last few years?). Duke also has some great research, global psychiatry initiatives. Some residents said they chose Duke over UNC for what they felt were better reputation and opportunities. Some at UNC might say the same about UNC. For the training that you're looking for, Longwood seems like a good match except for the fact that it's on the Northeast. What is your impression of the "Northeast vibe?"
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Splik's comment about Stanford is why it's so important for folks to continue contributing to SDN, particularly on things like interview feedback.
People continue to talk about Stanford being very weak in psychotherapy training. This was the case years ago but they've been rectifying that with a recent change in leadership.
UCSD also has had the reputation of being "biological" and UCLA Harbor being over county/under-therapy. These are remnants of impressions made years ago that no longer apply but are propagated by program strengths (UCSD does great neuroscience and pharm research but still has lots of community, VA, and therapy strengths; Harbor UCLA is a great county program, but one of the few that goes to great effort to provide longitudinal psychotherapy training to a population whose treating psychiatrists tend not to do).
My point is things like the interview review threads help replace these myths with more accurate information.
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People continue to talk about Stanford being very weak in psychotherapy training. This was the case years ago but they've been rectifying that with a recent change in leadership.
UCSD also has had the reputation of being "biological" and UCLA Harbor being over county/under-therapy. These are remnants of impressions made years ago that no longer apply but are propagated by program strengths (UCSD does great neuroscience and pharm research but still has lots of community, VA, and therapy strengths; Harbor UCLA is a great county program, but one of the few that goes to great effort to provide longitudinal psychotherapy training to a population whose treating psychiatrists tend not to do).
My point is things like the interview review threads help replace these myths with more accurate information.
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My advice: write down all the positive and negative attributes of programs on index cards, but leave off the name of the program - use identifers like A, B, C...set the cards aside for the next couple of weeks, shuffle them, and then stack them in order of preference. Do another stack of cards with location, family, cost of living, and climate considerations - use identifiers again...shuffle the deck, rank them, and use these as the tiebreakers for the first round.
Eliminate the "name over the door" and I believe you will find that programs are more alike than dissimilar, and the "lifestyle/location" factors will sharpen your rank list focus.
The above applies mainly to folks looking for solid clinical training without any goal or desire of niche research or narrow academic interests.
Eliminate the "name over the door" and I believe you will find that programs are more alike than dissimilar, and the "lifestyle/location" factors will sharpen your rank list focus.
The above applies mainly to folks looking for solid clinical training without any goal or desire of niche research or narrow academic interests.
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@splik, that was very helpful, thanks! @notdeadyet, wasn't able to write a review for Stanford due to zero downtime that day and the following few days (busy conference), otherwise I would have; hence why splik's post was helpful -- I just have some notes I scribbled down, one of which was "We focus mainly on evidence based therapies" which I may have over-interpreted as CBT/DBT.
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It's interesting as a resident fielding questions to compare your program to another program, especially in terms of workload and structure. There is no frame of reference for comparison, and it's really hard to make valid judgments based on a handful of responses from individuals with regard to their own experience. I wonder if there are more objective questions to ask:
1. Average daily census + d/c & admit
2. Call structure
3. # of patients seen on call
4. Support provided by program
5. Educational quality of workload
I can tell you that #4 & #5 have been much more valuable to me than 1-3. If you are working hard and feel supported and are seeing a # of patients that gives you opportunity to learn the most without being weighed down, then more patients feels like opportunity rather than burden.
1. Average daily census + d/c & admit
2. Call structure
3. # of patients seen on call
4. Support provided by program
5. Educational quality of workload
I can tell you that #4 & #5 have been much more valuable to me than 1-3. If you are working hard and feel supported and are seeing a # of patients that gives you opportunity to learn the most without being weighed down, then more patients feels like opportunity rather than burden.
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This is the service obligation vs. education myth.
“We value education over service so much, we have no required call”.
Take this to a logical ideal extreme and poof;
“We value education over service so much; we don’t let you see any patients.”
Service obligations and education are only in opposition if there is a lack of teaching.
“We value education over service so much, we have no required call”.
Take this to a logical ideal extreme and poof;
“We value education over service so much; we don’t let you see any patients.”
Service obligations and education are only in opposition if there is a lack of teaching.
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One small thing to consider re: program reviews and deciding whether or not to help people make decisions:
1) A person might not be able to review thoroughly if they have a very specific interest without giving away their name.
2) A person might only be able to evaluate programs by discussing qualities of specific people, and might not want to make public comments on a message board about specific individuals (who are probably great people but might not "fit" with them well).
3) A person might have been promised or given specific things that wouldn't be available to all residents there and they aren't comfortable disclosing this (extra stipends, research time, foreign experiences, fellowships, research money, etc).
1) A person might not be able to review thoroughly if they have a very specific interest without giving away their name.
2) A person might only be able to evaluate programs by discussing qualities of specific people, and might not want to make public comments on a message board about specific individuals (who are probably great people but might not "fit" with them well).
3) A person might have been promised or given specific things that wouldn't be available to all residents there and they aren't comfortable disclosing this (extra stipends, research time, foreign experiences, fellowships, research money, etc).
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Note to self: salary negotiable?Wow
(not serious, although it really would be nice to have some bargaining power)
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I made sure to pull up Tinder in every city to support my rank list.
H
HarryMTieboutMD
It's all about Bumble now.
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That's the one where girls are in charge? How does it work/do they even have it for gay people?
I actually did this too... well at least at places where I was concerned about it. Sadly my favorite program is probably somewhere I'd end up celibate for all of residency...
Anyways - on topic:
I have a pretty solid In-state and out-of-state lists of programs in order... the problems come when I try to smush them together in one list....
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1) Don't mention the specific interest you have
2) Don't mention the specific people you met
3) Don't mention the specific things you were promised
As to #3, get it in writing or it's vapor...
H
HarryMTieboutMD
Emory, without question, and this is not even debatable. Emory is a great program with world renowned faculty (eg, Helen Mayberg) and very solid clinical training. You can pretty much do anything, and the program has enough national respect that most doors should be open to you, both in academia and private practice. Yes, beth israel us now under the Sinai name, but that doesn't make it any more well regarded as a training program. You probably get good clinical exposure because it's in NYC, but you have to wonder about the quality of teaching. Also, you probably are going to be SOL trying to find a job in manhattan (idk if the program hires their own) unless you train at one of the Big Four. And if you are interested in a fellowship, coming from Emory with a strong rec from a big name person will make you VERY competitive. You will be running just to stay 10 feet behind if you are applying from BI. And even if you are dying to be in Manhattan... remember it's loud, expensive, and unaccommodating even with subsidized housing. Do you really want to train at a program that is not even in the top 4? Emory is THE psychiatry training program in Atlanta; Morehouse has a program, but it isn't even in the same league. So yes, Emory.
And you are supposed to work hard in residency. But even in psychiatry, the "hard" programs are not that bad compared to medicine/surgery/obgyn.
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Aren't psychiatry fellowships even less competitive than residency? I'm trying to decide a namebrand vs an upstart of sorts, I like both equally I think but I'd give an edge to the upstart in terms of location easily.
6
675015
The OPs question would imply, by definition, that it most certainly is "debatable."
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It seems the competition, like with psychiatry residency in general, is if you have specific location or program preferences. Especially when that preference is "stay at home program" and program has fewer spots than applicants who want to stay home. Such was the case for C&A at a couple of the programs I visited.
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On that note, I've been rethinking some of the combined fellowship match programs I interviewed at. I feel like I'd rather just apply in 3-4 years, really it seems like the benefit is more on the programs side to lock you into staying.
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This, amen, and truer words were never spoken.
Fellowships are less competitive, but can be highly variable by location and year to year.
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With the exception of forensics, this is generally true. The distinguishing factor as far as which is better for the fellowship you want is if you care about where you do fellowship rather than being able to do it. If you are considering fellowship training, you want to heavily consider the quantity and quality of the fellowships where you are at and their level of integration with residents. This is only somewhat driven by the idea that you may stay there for the fellowship. It is mostly important to have a good sense of what you are getting into and what you would want to see in a program. It's not dissimilar to the bridge from medical school to residency. Look around these forums. There are tons of people who did not get adequate exposure to their chosen specialty or adequate knowledge of what residency in their field at their matching institution will really be like.
I have a major problem when it comes to ranking my programs. I'm at a East Coast school, which has a strong psychiatry department. I love the department, but unfortunately I've had a terrible time at my medical school during some rotations, and I would really like to leave. I get flashbacks to some of the times I've had in the hospital, and it gives me this visceral feeling that I do not want to be here anymore. However, my partner is doing a degree in the same city which makes it very challenging for him to transfer. We are looking into it, but it's looking like he probably can't leave for another 4 years.
I did, however, totally fall in love with a West Coast program. I'm quite sure I want to do outpatient rather than inpatient psychiatry, and I feel like much more so than my home program, this West Coast program can provide me with better training in that aspect. Having said this, maybe doing a lot of inpatient rotations is the best practice for doing outpatient psychiatry--I don't know. In addition, their curriculum at least appears much easier. My home program has the reputation of working its residents very hard. I guess I'm a little torn about this because while I really want a good education, I also do not want to burn out. I think I become a much worse person when I don't get enough sleep, feel under pressure, etc. I've seen myself become meaner and do stupid things when I'm under a lot of stress during medical school, and I wonder if it's my responsibility to recognize that kind of vulnerability and not put myself in situations where I'll be so stressed that I end up doing things I regret (which I have done during medical school).
My favorite program on the East Coast is my home program. But my favorite overall program is on the West Coast program. My partner really does not want me to leave, and is worried that doing long distance for 4 years is going to end our relationship. We live together currently and I really like the arrangement. I don't want to leave him either, but I also don't know that I want to voluntarily choose to stay in a system that I felt I was abused in. I do think professionally the West Coast program fits my idea of what I want from a residency program better (more creativity, more outpatient time, less hours/week). I guess I also want the adventure of a new program. I also know that the West Coast is very competitive, so I could just rank the West Coast program and not match there anyway.
I guess I wonder how much my medical school experience matters in judging how I will fare in the future at the same hospital. I should say I had a terrible time with the medicine department that psychiatry residents rotate in, and I am worried about that. I also worry about the workload. But maybe it's all worth it to keep my relationship (local)?
I did, however, totally fall in love with a West Coast program. I'm quite sure I want to do outpatient rather than inpatient psychiatry, and I feel like much more so than my home program, this West Coast program can provide me with better training in that aspect. Having said this, maybe doing a lot of inpatient rotations is the best practice for doing outpatient psychiatry--I don't know. In addition, their curriculum at least appears much easier. My home program has the reputation of working its residents very hard. I guess I'm a little torn about this because while I really want a good education, I also do not want to burn out. I think I become a much worse person when I don't get enough sleep, feel under pressure, etc. I've seen myself become meaner and do stupid things when I'm under a lot of stress during medical school, and I wonder if it's my responsibility to recognize that kind of vulnerability and not put myself in situations where I'll be so stressed that I end up doing things I regret (which I have done during medical school).
My favorite program on the East Coast is my home program. But my favorite overall program is on the West Coast program. My partner really does not want me to leave, and is worried that doing long distance for 4 years is going to end our relationship. We live together currently and I really like the arrangement. I don't want to leave him either, but I also don't know that I want to voluntarily choose to stay in a system that I felt I was abused in. I do think professionally the West Coast program fits my idea of what I want from a residency program better (more creativity, more outpatient time, less hours/week). I guess I also want the adventure of a new program. I also know that the West Coast is very competitive, so I could just rank the West Coast program and not match there anyway.
I guess I wonder how much my medical school experience matters in judging how I will fare in the future at the same hospital. I should say I had a terrible time with the medicine department that psychiatry residents rotate in, and I am worried about that. I also worry about the workload. But maybe it's all worth it to keep my relationship (local)?
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Only you can know. How many months of IM do you have to do next year, anyway? Two? Four?
5 years from now are you more likely to grieve the loss of the relationship, or the missed opportunity to train at the program that you now idealize from a continent away?
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It's all up to you. But while I've seen many strong relationships weather four years apart, I've also seen many strong ones whither on the long-distance vine. So if your partner is worried the relationship won't last the distance, I'd be inclined to believe him. How you prioritize your career with this particular relationship is something that no one can really help you with.
As to your insights about your home program, you likely have a much more accurate impression of your home program than you do any program you visited on the West Coast. One thing I would do is try to separate your experiences of the Psychiatry department from the other departments. Intern year sucks at most places (I actually really like medicine and neurology, but I sure didn't like 6 day work weeks) and you will be doing psychiatry in residency for 3-1/2 years. Weigh that much more heavily.
As to your insights about your home program, you likely have a much more accurate impression of your home program than you do any program you visited on the West Coast. One thing I would do is try to separate your experiences of the Psychiatry department from the other departments. Intern year sucks at most places (I actually really like medicine and neurology, but I sure didn't like 6 day work weeks) and you will be doing psychiatry in residency for 3-1/2 years. Weigh that much more heavily.
I am asking for people's feedback regarding UCLA-SFV program. I am not quite sure how to rank this program. I would rank it #1 or #2 but my big problem is VA outpatient training. I really liked their residents, got along well during happy hour and they genuinely seemed happy and chill. I also liked their inpatient training and a mix between va, npi, and olive view and opportunities to do rotations at NPI all 4 years esp in child. My biggest concern is that VA outpatient training though. I plan to do fast track for child and my goal is to get a job in academic medicine doing a lot of teaching not just for child but for adult side as well. Wouldn't be much of a problem if I did 4th year where i can do electives in women's health, college counseling, and at NPI, but due to fast tracking, i will miss out on non va 4th year experiences. For attendings on the forum, can you learn it on the job once i become an attending? Will i be able to translate my experiences in treating vets with depression, anxiety, ocd, PTSD with female non va patients once I am an attending through practical experiences? would i be comfortable precepting residents/med students for different patient population? I noticed attendings at my med school with a lot of specialized services often told residents that they didn't feel comfortable treating x, y, z outside of their narrow specialty because of their lack of training during residency/fellowship (not from psych, but from other specialties) and I didn't like that at all.
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Can anyone comment on the quality of training of JPS-Fort Worth vs Henry Ford-Detroit?
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How could anyone comment on comparing the training environments of both programs unless they attended both?
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Can anyone offer more insight on either of these two programs for someone who is pursuing strong clinical training, good quality of life, or overall quality of training? Maybe reputation?
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I am really struggling to figure out what to do with Utah. I really, really liked a lot of things about the program, but I'm concerned about the reputation and how that might affect me. I'm not even sure what Utah's reputation is.
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It has a great reputation in that part of the country. people don't tend to venture all that far presumably because they want to be there. they obviously have lots of residents from utah and people who like the outdoors. they do a good job of getting some top notch residents who could have gone to more competitive programs. your residency program is unlikely to affect you getting jobs for the most part with the possible exception of breaking into jobs in some academic medical centers in certain major metropolitan areas and i dont think training at utah should hold you back anymore than anywhere else you've interviewed at. they did have this guy who was all into spreading the whole satanic ritual abuse epidemic but he's retired now. you are best off going where you think you will thrive and will challenge you to have a broad range of experiences outside of your comfort zone and a wide range of cases. they get some pretty interesting cases too as it's one of the few places for several states (there's not much in idaho or wyoming).
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I did some digging, but am bringing this back for the 2016 rendition: is there any merit/stock/value/hope in positive post-interview communication?
If so, what sort of buzzwords or phrases etc should one be looking for (or what should one not trust whatsoever)?
If so, what sort of buzzwords or phrases etc should one be looking for (or what should one not trust whatsoever)?
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it's all irrelevant unless the PD tells you flat out "we've ranked you in our top 8 spots" or however many they have. anything less than that don't read anything into it.
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Is Brown considered more of a top program or mid-tier program? Does anyone have any insight into whether Brown grads have a hard(er) time finding academic positions in the northeast so close to programs like MGH and Yale? Thanks!
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:/
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basically i meant it won't hold you back!
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It's hard when you're not sure if you're hungry for laziness or success.
Anytime I hear the phrase "holding me/you/them/him/her back", I think of Anakin Skywalker yelling about Obi Wan and throwing things:
That's me right now. Re: my ERAS transcript fiasco
Anytime I hear the phrase "holding me/you/them/him/her back", I think of Anakin Skywalker yelling about Obi Wan and throwing things:
That's me right now. Re: my ERAS transcript fiasco
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Anakin was such a whiney b!+(# though. You're better than that!
That's what I tell myself.
Here's a list of my favorite programs right now in no particular order:
Utah
Harvard South Shore (currently my first choice)
Emory
UCSD
Case Western
UVA
Miami (even after being demoted for Nemer0ff weirdness... they have impressive facilities and opportunities compared to most of my options)
Montefiore
Cincinnati (I got a weird vibe, but they have a lot of opportunities and are close-ish to my family)
U Mass (barely made this list 2/2 Worcester. I wouldn't want to live there and commuting an hour is too much for me)
Louisville (closest to home)
I'm interested in research; forensics; LGBT mental health; +/- future time in academia. I could see myself going for a fellowship in Forensics (more likely) or Child. I favor more cohesive programs where the residents are both engaged in work and friendly to each other. I'd like to live in a larger, more liberal city with culture and outdoor rec opportunities nearby. I only know 3 people who live west of the Mississippi, and they're all residents in California.
How would you (anyone, not just Dharma) rank? People say some mean things about Harvard South Shore, but I really liked it.
