**Official** CONFUSED ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MD AND DO thread

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spicedmanna said:
You might be reading, but you sure as heck aren't listening. You do realize that a number of the people who responded here are bona fide medical students, residents, and fellows, right? Are you claiming to know more about the process than those who are either going through it, or have completed major milestones on the very path that you want to gain entry into? I don't enjoy pointing that out, but your arrogance is astonishing to me.

There's nothing I or anyone else can say to convince you, because you've already decided. Come back with a truly open mind and I think you'll get a different reception and you may actually learn a thing or two.
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Don't bother ... he's not listening for a reason, he's trolling and I'm falling for it hook line and sinker. Lock the thread, warn everyone, and ban him.
 
For all I care, he's welcome to apply DO. Talking like that, he won't get in anyway.
 
Man, you guys are really easy to bait along this time. Who cares about this person? They are just like a huge percentage of premed students. They all want to be a doctor, but for many it is simply to write "MD" after their name so they can be like everyone on TV. Don't you know that every MD is the best physician ever? No way a MD degree from a new state school with really low admission stats is worse than a DO degree from a school that has been around over 100 years longer. Numbers always imply a person is better and smarter. People never make mistakes, take harder classes out of interest, or have other situations that occupy their time (such as having a family or working full time). The MCAT is the best indicator of success ever. It is right up there with reading your tea leaves. I had 3 psychics tell me that tea leaves are always right, so it must be true.


I was hoping my sarcasm about shooting puppies would be the best indicator to stop feeding this person. Come on guys. You're better than that!
 
Everything has been answered.

Thanks,
Valo
 
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VALO said:
1. Are the courses and quality of education on par with the "average" medical school?
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Yes. All medical schools in the US are competent to provide the education you need.

2. Why would one choose to go to a medical school rather than a DO, if wages, benefits, qualifications are the same? Is it the prestige?
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Just a bit of a correction here, but DO school is medical school, just like an MD school is medical school. They are equivalent in almost every way, with the exception for some minor focal elements and OMT pre-clinical education.

Please do a search; this sort of question has been asked and answered about a zillion times.

3. (flame away) I intend on becoming a psychiatrist and am wondering if all DO programs allow for this to happen.
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Psychiatry is not a competitive residency. You can pretty much go to medical school anywhere and match into psych, as long as you have a pulse and pass the boards. I'm exaggerating a bit for effect, but not much.

4. Are the requirements, generally that is, the same as pre-med? What I mean is, is my pre-med, psy/phil. double major adequate.
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As I said before, both are medical school, so yeah, the general requirements are the same. Different application system, but pretty much identical requirements, expect that some osteopathic medical schools strongly recommend or require a LOR from a DO. Also, keep in mind that there may be additional requirements beyond the general set that individual schools may require, for both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools.

PLEASE do a search and read the FAQs before posting.
 
VALO said:
1. Are the courses and quality of education on par with the "average" medical school?

2. Why would one choose to go to a medical school rather than a DO, if wages, benefits, qualifications are the same? Is it the prestige?

3. (flame away) I intend on becoming a psychiatrist and am wondering if all DO programs allow for this to happen.

4. Are the requirements, generally that is, the same as pre-med? What I mean is, is my pre-med, psy/phil. double major adequate.

Anything else?

(I understand the basic philosophy behind osteopathic medical practices. I also tend to agree with it, which is why I am considering a DO rather than a MD.)


Thanks,
Valo
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-edit: Looks like I was slow on the draw.

I'm in a good mood.

1. Courses and education quality are on par with the "average" medical school.

2. Yes it is the prestige. Some argue that you won't be able to practice outside the U.S. but the short answer to that question is that it doesn't matter if you are visiting on a medical mission-type excursion. When you are on one of these kinds of trips they don't care if you are an MD or a DO. If you plan on moving to another country after graduating from medical school and you KNOW that the country you are moving to does not license DOs then don't go DO. This isn't a problem for most of us.

3. You would have absolutely no problem becoming a psychiatrist as a DO. There are numerous DO psychiatrists. It isn't a competitive specialty for either DOs or MDs.

4. Requirements are basically identical to those of MD schools. Some schools require a DO LoR (I never got one so you CAN get by without one).

5. As far as "what else". DO schools are medical schools so there really is no such thing as "DO school compared to medical school"
 
VALO said:
1. Are the courses and quality of education on par with the "average" medical school?

2. Why would one choose to go to a medical school rather than a DO, if wages, benefits, qualifications are the same? Is it the prestige?

3. (flame away) I intend on becoming a psychiatrist and am wondering if all DO programs allow for this to happen.

4. Are the requirements, generally that is, the same as pre-med? What I mean is, is my pre-med, psy/phil. double major adequate.

Anything else?

(I understand the basic philosophy behind osteopathic medical practices. I also tend to agree with it, which is why I am considering a DO rather than a MD.)


Thanks,
Valo
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1. Yes. Depending on the institution, some courses are actually identical to the MD courses (take MSUCOM for instance), and the rigor is no less. The main course differences will be in terms of philosophy of patient care - which aren't better or worse, just different.

2. That's a big question to answer... the short answer is, once you are physician, nobody cares whether you carry the DO or MD after your name (i.e. whether or not you attended allopathic medical school or osteopathic medical school). The gap in GPA and MCAT between DO and MD schools is closing every year (see other threads for more info). Since you said you are familiar with osteopathic principles, you can see why some applicants with good stats for both DO and MD programs choose one or the other.

3. Osteopathic physicians are licensed to practice in all the same branches of medicine as allopathic physicians. In fact, if you earn a DO degree you are eligible for both DO and MD residencies if you take both sets of boards.

4. Course pre-requisites are near identical. The basic one year of bio/chem/ochem/phys, and then usually a math and an English course. Some schools ask for one or more upper-level courses (like MD schools), but it is very school-specific.

Hope this is helpful.
 
MTS42 said:
1. Yes. Depending on the institution, some courses are actually identical to the MD courses (take MSUCOM for instance), and the rigor is no less. The main course differences will be in terms of philosophy of patient care - which aren't better or worse, just different.

2. That's a big question to answer... the short answer is, once you are physician, nobody cares whether you carry the DO or MD after your name (i.e. whether or not you attended allopathic medical school or osteopathic medical school). The gap in GPA and MCAT between DO and MD schools is closing every year (see other threads for more info). Since you said you are familiar with osteopathic principles, you can see why some applicants with good stats for both DO and MD programs choose one or the other.

3. Osteopathic physicians are licensed to practice in all the same branches of medicine as allopathic physicians. In fact, if you earn a DO degree you are eligible for both DO and MD residencies if you take both sets of boards.

4. Course pre-requisites are near identical. The basic one year of bio/chem/ochem/phys, and then usually a math and an English course. Some schools ask for one or more upper-level courses (like MD schools), but it is very school-specific.

Hope this is helpful.
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You don't have to take both sets of boards, by the way. 😉
 
Valo, I'm a proponent of osteopathic medical schools, and clearly I chose to attend one. However, I am kind of curious how you feel about learning OMT, which is a manual modality, meaning you have to get hands on to apply it, being that you think you want to go into psychiatry, which basically does not condone touch therapy of any sort. It's mainstays are talk therapies and meds to address organic pathology. How do you think learning OMT will help you become a better psychiatrist? In other words, how you see osteopathic education impacting your practice? Hard questions, I know. I'm not even sure I can answer these myself. I was just wondering out loud.
 
spicedmanna said:
Valo, I'm a proponent of osteopathic medical schools, and clearly I chose to attend one. However, I am kind of curious how you feel about learning OMT, which is a manual modality, meaning you have to get hands on to apply it, being that you think you want to go into psychiatry, which basically does not condone touch therapy of any sort. It's mainstays are talk therapies and meds to address organic pathology. How do you think learning OMT will help you become a better psychiatrist? In other words, how you see osteopathic education impacting your practice? Hard questions, I know. I'm not even sure I can answer these myself. I was just wondering out loud.
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As you well know, I am quite new to this philosophy of medicine, and admittedly have much to learn. What first drew me to "googling" this form of medicine was the holistic principles that seem to underline the practice as a whole. A sort of foundation that incorporates the person as a being, a human being, along with the chemical imbalances and psycho/social disorders that I will encounter once I do achieve a medical degree (2016?)

I just do not like where the field of psychiatry is going these days. Professional drug dealers it seems. Especially the lower end ones (whatever you take that to be). Part of the reason why I am also double-majoring in Psy./Phil. wit my pre-med is so I can be better suited (or equiped) to help my patients to the best of my abilities. I hope I have a high-turnover rate with my patients, as tp get them off scripts completely and have the ability to free them of mental illnesses.

I am young and have alot to learn not only in my education, but of myself as well. Hopefully 2012 will not go as bad as my Christian friend believes it will be and I will have an answer for your question by then (or before).

I think I may stick around these boards for a while. Both m.d. and d.o. and find what is best for me.
 
Semicolon said:
You don't have to take both sets of boards, by the way. 😉
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To do an allopathic residency? Or are you just saying you don't have to take two boards (just the COMLEX) to do an osteopathic residency?
 
That is a very thoughtful answer, Valo. I appreciate your open-mindedness, willingness to explore and learn, and to question what is in front of you. These qualities will serve you well as you move forward.

Definitely stick around. I think these forums will be of benefit in your adventure.

Also, I agree with you about where psychiatry has been going. Don't like all the casual overuse of meds in psych, especially when not used in conjunction with non-pharmaceutical modalities... It's too easy to pick up a pen, write something on a pad, and let it end there...

Good luck with your endeavor and I hope for the most beneficial outcome. In terms of the question I posed, let yourself live in that question for a while...
 
circulus vitios said:
To do an allopathic residency? Or are you just saying you don't have to take two boards (just the COMLEX) to do an osteopathic residency?
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Both. Yes, you only need the COMLEX for an osteopathic residency. For an allopathic residency, it depends on the program. There are plenty of programs/specialties where you do not need a USMLE score, but some would argue that it would be best to take it anyway. My point was that you do not HAVE to.
 
Out of curiousity, how often do D.O. graduates obtain residency in the more prestigous M.D. programs like Harvard, Yale etc?

Assuming that all things being equal (LOR, grades, boards, research) except the title and the school.
 
I shadowed a GP who was a very high ranking ethicist for Mayo. He is a D.O.
 
LateBl00meR said:
Out of curiousity, how often do D.O. graduates obtain residency in the more prestigous M.D. programs like Harvard, Yale etc?

Assuming that all things being equal (LOR, grades, boards, research) except the title and the school.
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Depends on the field. Surgery? Good luck.
 
Also keep in mind that a residency program being at Yale, Harvard, or any of those does not automatically make it the most prestigious. To us premeds, the name sounds impressive but the best programs aren't always followed with those names. For example, there is a thread going on in the surgery forum about the malignancy of UPenn surgery. It is the same thing with emergency medicine, where the best programs are not at all what you'd expect them to be. Each place has different hospitals too. Matching MGH is dramatically more difficult than matching one of the satellite hospitals somewhere else.

Once you become interested in a particular field and begin reading the literature you will start to notice trends but that is only for the more academic programs. You will hear about strong programs that aren't focused around academia and have a high percentage of applicants match in their prospective fellowships (if interested) as well.
 
Once you become interested in a particular field and begin reading the literature you will start to notice trends but that is only for the more academic programs. You will hear about strong programs that aren't focused around academia and have a high percentage of applicants match in their prospective fellowships (if interested) as well.[/quote]

Yeah I think that is a concern to many people including me - that D.O. schools are not known to be research oriented - and published research I hear is a prerequisite to some good residencies
 
slick27 said:
http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/emergmed-r-residents.html

I just found this. It looks like the first emergency medicine resident DO Mayo has had in a while, if ever.
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Its a possibility. I think some residencies are simply more competitive than others. However, I don't see Rochester as a particularly awesome place to practice EM, except for the wide range of rare sick folks you would see. Nonetheless, I would still go.😀

Also, I was perusing Mayo's surgical residency roster the other day...zero DOs.
 
The chief of orthopaedics at Dartmouth-Hitchcock is a D.O.

I know the Harvard combined Ortho residency doesnt accept D.O.'s...unofficially anyways. This was according to a service chief. If there are any I'm not aware of them.

Fellows, yes. The first Trauma fellow at MGH was a D.O.
 
Have trained @some of the well known U medical programs.
Have seen a DO rheumatology fellow, DO in PM and R, and there was one in anesthesiology who was awesome (this was when I was a student...keep in mind that gas residency used to be easier to get, but it's been getting more competitive). I've never seen a DO in radiology, a surgical subspecialty or derm at any of these type medical centers. DO's can of course do these specialties, but it's usually at DO hospitals, or less known allopathic residencies.
 
Awesome thread topic, OP.

I was wondering this myself, after noticing that there are virtually no DO IM/Peds residencies (the combo version with dual boards), but many of the MD ones are at the more prestigious schools.

I definitely agree with the comment about the top undergrad schools not necessarily having the best residencies and vice versa.

👍
 
I'm a sophomore in college right now so this sounds incredibly stupid, but I've been thinking about which specialty I'd like to do. I know it's a long way off and that I still have to actually get into a school to even begin thinking about it, but it's still fun to think about all of the specialties and what they do. :laugh:

So...as 'idealistic' as this is, plastic surgery sounds really awesome. Of course, plastics is one of the most - if not the most - competitive residencies around. So if I pretended I was an osteopathic student at a school like PCOM or LECOM, would having a D.O. in any way limit my chances at a plastic surgery residency? I know that plastic surgery is for the absolute cream of the crop M.D. students, but how much more difficult would it be for a D.O. student to match into an a plastics residencies? And I've heard there are only a couple AOA plastics programs, so how much harder would it be to match into an ACGME plastics program? Does the AOA have any non-integrated plastics residencies, like 3 years gsurg -> 3 years plastics?

And how difficult is matching into other 'high end' residencies (such as radiology, anesthesiology, orthopedic surgery, etc) as a D.O., whether they're AOA or ACGME residencies?

Would I be better off trying to get into an allopathic school if I want to match into these more competitive residencies, or will it not make a huge difference? I'm afraid of finally getting into a medical school, doing well, and not matching into the specialty I want. :scared:
 
Geliebt said:
I think everyone has this fear - M.D. and D.O. 🙂
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Probably, but I'd like to give myself the best chance I can. If I still want plastics, radiology, anesthesia, etc. when it's time to apply to residencies, will having a D.O. after my name lessen my chances than having an M.D. would? I know for a fact that there are less D.O. residencies than M.D. residencies, even when the number of D.O. and M.D. students is taken into account. Will M.D. plastics/rads/anesthesia/etc residencies give M.D. students priority over D.O. students, given they have similar stats?
 
If you're worried about it, will you get into an MD school?

I'd like to see statistics comparing pre-medical school specialty ambitions and post-rotation specialty ambitions.

I don't think the general premed population realizes what is required to go plastics.
 
circulus vitios said:
Will M.D. plastics/rads/anesthesia/etc residencies give M.D. students priority over D.O. students, given they have similar stats?
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Yes they will. But the DO residencies won't even bother looking at MD students.
 
Bacchus said:
If you're worried about it, will you get into an MD school?

I'd like to see statistics comparing pre-medical school specialty ambitions and post-rotation specialty ambitions.

I don't think the general premed population realizes what is required to go plastics.
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Considering that half the pre-med world wants to enter the field of "Diagnostic Medicine", I'd say you're correct.
 
Bacchus said:
If you're worried about it, will you get into an MD school?

I'd like to see statistics comparing pre-medical school specialty ambitions and post-rotation specialty ambitions.

I don't think the general premed population realizes what is required to go plastics.
Click to expand...

I'm already freaking out over whether or not I'll get into a D.O. school, much less an M.D. school, much less a non-FP specialty, much less a competitive specialty, and so on and so on....I'm just trying to figure out what my chances are, if by some miracle I manage to get into a medical school.
 
Bacchus said:
If you're worried about it, will you get into an MD school?

I'd like to see statistics comparing pre-medical school specialty ambitions and post-rotation specialty ambitions.

I don't think the general premed population realizes what is required to go plastics.
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Im glad someone said this. I think I would go derm/rad if I could...but so would just about everyone else 🙄
 
When people ask **** like this, I don't even think they know what they're asking.

You are talking about programs where you can do everything right, get great board scores, great letters, great rotation evals, strong published research in the desired field, and good connections at the program, and you still won't land the spot. There are a **** ton of great applicants to these programs every year, and they're only going to take so many.

On top of that, there are like 5x as many MD grads as DO grads, and a lot of people who go to DO schools are interested in primary care, and have no interest in jumping through the hoops necessary to even think about going after a categorical surgery spot at f-ing Harvard. Some of the very top students in my class, I **** you not, want to go into primary care.

This is like asking if being a DO will keep me from being the next dictator of Mexico. No, probably not, but I still don't need a magic 8-ball to predict how that's going to turn out either.
 
There was no malice in my post, just something I had to get off my chest. Those wanting the "exclusive" specialties more often than not don't have any idea of the what they need to go through.

You should have this POV: I have to apply to DO schools. I'll do what I can to align myself for the possibility of achieving "the best." Not, oh, well I'm going DO so what do I have to do not to be sucktacular.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
When people ask **** like this, I don't even think they know what they're asking.

You are talking about programs where you can do everything right, get great board scores, great letters, great rotation evals, strong published research in the desired field, and good connections at the program, and you still won't land the spot. There are a **** ton of great applicants to these programs every year, and they're only going to take so many.

On top of that, there are like 5x as many MD grads as DO grads, and a lot of people who go to DO schools are interested in primary care, and have no interest in jumping through the hoops necessary to even think about going after a categorical surgery spot at f-ing Harvard. Some of the very top students in my class, I **** you not, want to go into primary care.

This is like asking if being a DO will keep me from being the next dictator of Mexico. No, probably not, but I still don't need a magic 8-ball to predict how that's going to turn out either.
Click to expand...

Best. Post. Ever.

No disrespect to the OP, because the question he asked isn't really that ridiculous at all, but this reply clears things up quite well...
 
TexasTriathlete said:
This is like asking if being a DO will keep me from being the next dictator of Mexico. No, probably not, but I still don't need a magic 8-ball to predict how that's going to turn out either.
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Dude, you just crushed my dreams. Thanks a lot.

Now, if I go to harvard MD, will I have a shot? I might just take a year off and shoot for that!
 
I think your only real limits to entering surgery will be whether or not you go to med school period, and the second will be whether or not you still decide to pursue surgery after 6 more years (as a current sophomore). Lots can happen, and people change.
 
Many people realize that they won't be surgeons when they fail to actually matriculate into medical school. It's cool to be a premed in undergrad, but half of the premeds in undergrad never even get an interview and only half of them that get interviews get accepted.

A lot of people realize after their first Anatomy exam that they won't be doing surgery, because they may have a 100 average in every undergrad class, but so do the other 70 people in your medical school class who just made a C-.

Others realize that they won't be surgeons after they barely pass step one of the boards. They might keep trying, though, because they think they have a winning personality.

Others realize that they don't want to be a surgeon when they do the rotation-- because the lifesyle simply blows. You're their at 6am or earlier and leaving after midnight many times. I remember a few Wednesdays where we were supposed to leave by 2PM (our early day off) and I walked out of the OR after midnight. My attending on my first surgery rotation missed his anniversary one week and his birthday celebration the next because there were emergency surgeries to do. As we were waiting for the elevator to show up he said to me, "Now you know why I drink." The lifestyle blows.

Most people change their minds sometime during rotations about what they want to do. What looks glorious in a few hours of shadowing can look a lot different when you live it 24/7. People who want to be pediatricians because they absolutely love kids change their minds after a week of a Peds rotation sometimes.

You have to first do all the things it takes to get in, keeping in mind that most people who start off as premeds don't even get into med school. Once you do get in, then you have to concentrate on doing your best, but realize that everyone around you is just as good as you are, maybe even better. If you graduate at the top of your med school class you can do anything you want... but chances are that you won't be that person. You have to go into it with an open mind. If you don't, then at some point you will be sorely disappointed.
 
circulus vitios said:
I'm a sophomore in college right now so this sounds incredibly stupid, but I've been thinking about which specialty I'd like to do. I know it's a long way off and that I still have to actually get into a school to even begin thinking about it, but it's still fun to think about all of the specialties and what they do. :laugh:

So...as 'idealistic' as this is, plastic surgery sounds really awesome. Of course, plastics is one of the most - if not the most - competitive residencies around. So if I pretended I was an osteopathic student at a school like PCOM or LECOM, would having a D.O. in any way limit my chances at a plastic surgery residency? I know that plastic surgery is for the absolute cream of the crop M.D. students, but how much more difficult would it be for a D.O. student to match into an a plastics residencies? And I've heard there are only a couple AOA plastics programs, so how much harder would it be to match into an ACGME plastics program? Does the AOA have any non-integrated plastics residencies, like 3 years gsurg -> 3 years plastics?

And how difficult is matching into other 'high end' residencies (such as radiology, anesthesiology, orthopedic surgery, etc) as a D.O., whether they're AOA or ACGME residencies?

Would I be better off trying to get into an allopathic school if I want to match into these more competitive residencies, or will it not make a huge difference? I'm afraid of finally getting into a medical school, doing well, and not matching into the specialty I want. :scared:
Click to expand...

NO! Being a DO will in NO WAY limit you. It is possible that certain ACGME plastics programs will be a bit harder to get into just because of the slight stigma that is still attached to the DO degree. However, for the most part, as long as you are a good student and you are dedicated to what you want to do, you will have no more trouble getting into the program you want as a DO than you would if you went to an MD school.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
When people ask **** like this, I don't even think they know what they're asking.

You are talking about programs where you can do everything right, get great board scores, great letters, great rotation evals, strong published research in the desired field, and good connections at the program, and you still won't land the spot. There are a **** ton of great applicants to these programs every year, and they're only going to take so many.

On top of that, there are like 5x as many MD grads as DO grads, and a lot of people who go to DO schools are interested in primary care, and have no interest in jumping through the hoops necessary to even think about going after a categorical surgery spot at f-ing Harvard. Some of the very top students in my class, I **** you not, want to go into primary care.

This is like asking if being a DO will keep me from being the next dictator of Mexico. No, probably not, but I still don't need a magic 8-ball to predict how that's going to turn out either.
Click to expand...

1st highlighted point: could not be more true. Scared people talking out their ass, so obsessed with big names, and being a famous neurosurgeon etc.

2nd highlighted part: ROFL ... hilarious.
 
To get into MD plastics is pretty much impossible for almost every person who applies to medical school (kinda like rad onc). YOu need to be the best. Going to DO school, you still need to be close to the best, but you can be a big fish in a little pond and probably have somewhat of an advantage. As for the other things, you just have to do your best.
 
Plastics? Way to set the bar high there champ... You actually need a pulse and a double digit IQ to get in.

Now derm, thats where its at. If you're not a derm loving premed you have no ambition whatsoever.

And DOs can't be derm! Can't be derm in mongolia!
 
engineeredout said:
Plastics? Way to set the bar high there champ... You actually need a pulse and a double digit IQ to get in.

Now derm, thats where its at. If you're not a derm loving premed you have no ambition whatsoever.

And DOs can't be derm! Can't be derm in mongolia!
Click to expand...

Is that that new thing called sarcasm? :meanie:

I don't see the appeal of dermatology. Skin diseases don't do it for me, but reconstructive plastic surgery is awesome.
 
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