**Official** CONFUSED ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MD AND DO thread

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it is absurd that for something like derm an MD would have an advantage
to me, dermatology troubles are better dealt with in holistic medicine..

but thats just my opinion.... and i'm of the camp where i dont blv allopathic dermatology should be a specialty at all haha, and am completely confused as to why the creme of the crop (in terms of scores, etc) are put in this... specialty where they use their prowress on 15hrs/week and their job description just entails perscribing meds.
 
DoktorB said:
Nah, im pretty sure TCOM is looking into having an MD program that would award a separate degree. Michigan State has the same thing, graduates only receive the degree of the program they were accepted into and attended for the four years. A dual doctorate would take much longer than 4 years, and would be completely pointless when talking about MD/DO. That would almost be like receiving two PhD's in a very related field. There's almost no point.
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Yeah, very redundant I would think...kinda like when you see a doctor on TV and they put on the screen title "Dr. ____ ___, DO."
 
medhearter said:
it is absurd that for something like derm an MD would have an advantage
to me, dermatology troubles are better dealt with in holistic medicine..

but thats just my opinion.... and i'm of the camp where i dont blv allopathic dermatology should be a specialty at all haha, and am completely confused as to why the creme of the crop (in terms of scores, etc) are put in this... specialty where they use their prowress on 15hrs/week and their job description just entails perscribing meds.
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It's competitive because it's probably the easiest specialty and has really high pay.
 
cajunchrisbu said:
i agree with this. I have worked in an emergency room for 3 years and there are 4 MDs and 2 DOs. I didn't notice a difference until I saw it on their lab coat. A good doctor is a good doctor regardless of the last 2 letters.
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True.

medhearter said:
it is absurd that for something like derm an MD would have an advantage
to me, dermatology troubles are better dealt with in holistic medicine..

but thats just my opinion.... and i'm of the camp where i dont blv allopathic dermatology should be a specialty at all haha, and am completely confused as to why the creme of the crop (in terms of scores, etc) are put in this... specialty where they use their prowress on 15hrs/week and their job description just entails perscribing meds.
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Derm is very competitive mainly because the good hours, lack of call and much of it is paid for out of pocket. This means Derm makes bank as they dont have to worry about getting reimbursed fully from medicare/medicaid/insurance. Good hours and good pay means the cream of the crop are going to flock to it. I was very against the idea of going into a cushy field like derm but after you work multiple 80+ hour weeks in a row you will realize why people are drawn to it.

A competitive field also means the residency directors have their pick of the most competitive candidates.

There are some real intricacies to dermatology which you will realize as you start having to differentiate different rashes that look essentially the same.
 
medhearter said:
it is absurd that for something like derm an MD would have an advantage
to me, dermatology troubles are better dealt with in holistic medicine..

but thats just my opinion.... and i'm of the camp where i dont blv allopathic dermatology should be a specialty at all haha, and am completely confused as to why the creme of the crop (in terms of scores, etc) are put in this... specialty where they use their prowress on 15hrs/week and their job description just entails perscribing meds.
Click to expand...

DOs do NOT practice truly holistic medicine any more than MDs do. A DO is not a better fit for derm; it's just as good a fit as an MD. On those grounds I feel that this specialty should be equally attainable to both, not because one is better than the other. 😉
 
medhearter said:
seriously

if osteo students learn all the same things PLUS with more of a focus on the humanistic aspects of medicine.. WHY is allo more sought after?

am i not understanding the difference here?

please feel free to give me the news.
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Cultural Inertia. Give it another 50 years and they will probably merge....
 
DoktorB said:
Nah, im pretty sure TCOM is looking into having an MD program that would award a separate degree. Michigan State has the same thing, graduates only receive the degree of the program they were accepted into and attended for the four years. A dual doctorate would take much longer than 4 years, and would be completely pointless when talking about MD/DO. That would almost be like receiving two PhD's in a very related field. There's almost no point.
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This post implies something else:

Check out his site: www.osteofeform.com. There is also talks of TCOM making an MD/DO program.
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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=611893
 
DoktorB said:
well, jagerplate's post is a little unclear either way..but check out the TCOM thread..also I think there is a thread about it in the medical students forum (DO). The impression I got was that they would be two separate programs, but I could be wrong :shrug:
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This is what I initially thought, that it would be like MSU's MD and DO programs, completely separate. HOWEVER, I think the big stink is that they actually want to create a MD/DO program that awards both degrees.
 
JaggerPlate said:
This is what I initially thought, that it would be like MSU's MD and DO programs, completely separate. HOWEVER, I think the big stink is that they actually want to create a MD/DO program that awards both degrees.
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Could that even be possible? Would that mean a physician with "Name, MD, DO"?

Christ, if this doesn't blur the line between the two degrees, then I don't know what does.
 
Semicolon said:
Could that even be possible? Would that mean a physician with "Name, MD, DO"?

Christ, if this doesn't blur the line between the two degrees, then I don't know what does.
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I'm 99% sure that's why there are websites dedicated to stopping it, people freaking out, etc. It's basically awarding a medical degree with a separate designation to demonstrate the emphasis put on manipulation. I think it would start a lot of change.
 
Semicolon said:
Could that even be possible? Would that mean a physician with "Name, MD, DO"?

Christ, if this doesn't blur the line between the two degrees, then I don't know what does.
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Isn't that what they did in the California merger?
 
medhearter said:
it is absurd that for something like derm an MD would have an advantage
to me, dermatology troubles are better dealt with in holistic medicine..

but thats just my opinion.... and i'm of the camp where i dont blv allopathic dermatology should be a specialty at all haha, and am completely confused as to why the creme of the crop (in terms of scores, etc) are put in this... specialty where they use their prowress on 15hrs/week and their job description just entails perscribing meds.
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Explain to me how a DO dermatologist would approach melanoma compared to an MD dermatologist in a "holistic" manner.
 
MaximusD said:
Explain to me how a DO dermatologist would approach melanoma compared to an MD dermatologist in a "holistic" manner.
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Most meetings with an osteopathic physician come with a "happy ending", because of our training in manual therapy.
 
Chocolate Bear said:
They converted the degree from DO --> MD in the merger. You weren't dual degreed.
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Ah.

I think in that book you recommended he talked about some other smaller pseudo-mergers in other states around the same time that did the same thing, though, or am I imagining that?

My point is, I think there have been instances of people being
John Doe, MD, DO
 
Thanks man. I like school. It is fun. It consumes my life, but I enjoy it.

If I was still a personal trainer, I'd probably be hurting financially right now.
 
MaximusD said:
Explain to me how a DO dermatologist would approach melanoma compared to an MD dermatologist in a "holistic" manner.
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Well clearly the DO treats the whole person. This means the DO not only biopsies the lesion but would also biopsy randomly all over a pt's body.
I mean they have to treat the whole pt, right?

This is how it usually plays out in a DO dermatologist's office:
"Well Mr Jones, this strangely shaped mole is on your R arm. I think I will start by biopsying your cheek and then move to your abdomen. You look confused Mr Jones, do you have any questions?"

I guess this really is holistic treatment
 
binko said:
Ah.

I think in that book you recommended he talked about some other smaller pseudo-mergers in other states around the same time that did the same thing, though, or am I imagining that?

My point is, I think there have been instances of people being
John Doe, MD, DO
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MD, DO's usually aren't docs who have gone to two US med-schools..its usually foreign docs who come to the states and end up going to a DO school or something complicated along those lines. At least thats the only time I've seen an MD, DO..
 
Instatewaiter said:
Well clearly the DO treats the whole person. This means the DO not only biopsies the lesion but would also biopsy randomly all over a pt's body.
I mean they have to treat the whole pt, right?

This is how it usually plays out in a DO dermatologist's office:
"Well Mr Jones, this strangely shaped mole is on your R arm. I think I will start by biopsying your cheek and then move to your abdomen. You look confused Mr Jones, do you have any questions?"

I guess this really is holistic treatment
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somehow this isn't funny
great appreciation dude
 
DoktorB said:
MD, DO's usually aren't docs who have gone to two US med-schools..its usually foreign docs who come to the states and end up going to a DO school or something complicated along those lines. At least thats the only time I've seen an MD, DO..
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No, not usually... which is why I cited a certain historical period in which cases of this occurred. Just saying it has happened, not that it does or should.
 
binko said:
No, not usually... which is why I cited a certain historical period in which cases of this occurred. Just saying it has happened, not that it does or should.
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Actually, DoktorB is right; I've seen quite a few of those MD, DO titles around NYC. I'm pretty sure they go through a program such as NYCOM's Emigre Physicians program, which then gives them the MD, DO distinction.

Also, as CB pointed out, during that period DOs became MDs. They weren't MD, DO.
 
anesthesiologist. My problem is I don't know which path to choose. Will being a D.O. hinder my chances at being a anesthesiologist? Should I go for M.D. instead?
 
redstar33309 said:
anesthesiologist. My problem is I don't know which path to choose. Will being a D.O. hinder my chances at being a anesthesiologist? Should I go for M.D. instead?
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What a surprise. How'd you figure that one out -- salary.com? :meanie: (Just teasing. 😀)

In truth, anesthesiology is a very competitive residency to obtain, and you'll have to WORK YOUR ASS OFF to get close to the top of your class both in grades and in board exams in order to have a chance at one. Choose whatever school fits you better, because you'll have to work just as hard in either one to get this done. However, I'm sure that current med students will have far more insight than I.
 
redstar33309 said:
anesthesiologist. My problem is I don't know which path to choose. Will being a D.O. hinder my chances at being a anesthesiologist? Should I go for M.D. instead?
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You can very easily become a DO anesthesiologist.

Moving to the Confused About DO vs. MD Differences thread.
 
redstar33309 said:
anesthesiologist. My problem is I don't know which path to choose. Will being a D.O. hinder my chances at being a anesthesiologist? Should I go for M.D. instead?
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It's a competitive route - as mi amigo semicolon was saying - but it's very doable from a DO school. If you look at the match lists from just about any DO school, they are well represented with DOs entering ACGME (MD) residencies and AOA (DO) residencies. Remember too that you are almost guaranteed to change your mind once in school ... so go where you feel best, work hard, and keep an open mind.
 
redstar33309 said:
anesthesiologist. My problem is I don't know which path to choose. Will being a D.O. hinder my chances at being a anesthesiologist? Should I go for M.D. instead?
Click to expand...

Yeah you can't really do anesthesia if you go to pharmacy school.

FYI
 
Oh no...it's one of these discussions again.

Just yesterday I was talking to a friend around here about the whole med school admissions process. We started college at the same time but he's not graduating with me this year (too much reefer use over the last few years...but that's a whole other story). Anyway, I was encouraging him to apply to at least some DO schools next year since his stats are marginal but he talked to his MD parents and they would have none of it. They literally - literally - used the old canard that DOs aren't real doctors (which is somewhat funny because both of them are FMGs themselves...but I digress). He proudly told me that he wouldn't be applying to any DO schools and that he'd rather go to Ponce in PR than any non-MD school. Why? Because his big-bucks "advisor" that his parents hired told him that PR med schools are considered part of the US "for all intents and purposes". Plus, as his line of thinking goes, a 3.4 and a 30 should be just fine for getting into U Miami or UF Med...and if it isn't he can just do a post-bac so he doesn't have to deal with the *gasp* DO schools.

I'm starting to think I don't need to be talking to this kid anymore. Any remaining sympathy I had for his failure to graduate/get into med school on the first try also went out the window after this conversation.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
Oh no...it's one of these discussions again.

Just yesterday I was talking to a friend around here about the whole med school admissions process. We started college at the same time but he's not graduating with me this year (too much reefer use over the last few years...but that's a whole other story). Anyway, I was encouraging him to apply to at least some DO schools next year since his stats are marginal but he talked to his MD parents and they would have none of it. They literally - literally - used the old canard that DOs aren't real doctors (which is somewhat funny because both of them are FMGs themselves...but I digress). He proudly told me that he wouldn't be applying to any DO schools and that he'd rather go to Ponce in PR than any non-MD school. Why? Because his big-bucks "advisor" that his parents hired told him that PR med schools are considered part of the US "for all intents and purposes". Plus, as his line of thinking goes, a 3.4 and a 30 should be just fine for getting into U Miami or UF Med...and if it isn't he can just do a post-bac so he doesn't have to deal with the *gasp* DO schools.

I'm starting to think I don't need to be talking to this kid anymore. Any remaining sympathy I had for his failure to graduate/get into med school on the first try also went out the window after this conversation.
Click to expand...

Arrogance has a tendency to rob its bearer of the opportunities they feel entitled to.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
Oh no...it's one of these discussions again.

Just yesterday I was talking to a friend around here about the whole med school admissions process. We started college at the same time but he's not graduating with me this year (too much reefer use over the last few years...but that's a whole other story). Anyway, I was encouraging him to apply to at least some DO schools next year since his stats are marginal but he talked to his MD parents and they would have none of it. They literally - literally - used the old canard that DOs aren't real doctors (which is somewhat funny because both of them are FMGs themselves...but I digress). He proudly told me that he wouldn't be applying to any DO schools and that he'd rather go to Ponce in PR than any non-MD school. Why? Because his big-bucks "advisor" that his parents hired told him that PR med schools are considered part of the US "for all intents and purposes". Plus, as his line of thinking goes, a 3.4 and a 30 should be just fine for getting into U Miami or UF Med...and if it isn't he can just do a post-bac so he doesn't have to deal with the *gasp* DO schools.

I'm starting to think I don't need to be talking to this kid anymore. Any remaining sympathy I had for his failure to graduate/get into med school on the first try also went out the window after this conversation.
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Agreed.

If anything, I'm glad he's not applying to osteopathic medical schools; he doesn't deserve it anyway. He's only hurting himself.

Hope he has fun in PR! 😉
 
dozitgetchahi said:
Oh no...it's one of these discussions again.

Just yesterday I was talking to a friend around here about the whole med school admissions process. We started college at the same time but he's not graduating with me this year (too much reefer use over the last few years...but that's a whole other story). Anyway, I was encouraging him to apply to at least some DO schools next year since his stats are marginal but he talked to his MD parents and they would have none of it. They literally - literally - used the old canard that DOs aren't real doctors (which is somewhat funny because both of them are FMGs themselves...but I digress). He proudly told me that he wouldn't be applying to any DO schools and that he'd rather go to Ponce in PR than any non-MD school. Why? Because his big-bucks "advisor" that his parents hired told him that PR med schools are considered part of the US "for all intents and purposes". Plus, as his line of thinking goes, a 3.4 and a 30 should be just fine for getting into U Miami or UF Med...and if it isn't he can just do a post-bac so he doesn't have to deal with the *gasp* DO schools.

I'm starting to think I don't need to be talking to this kid anymore. Any remaining sympathy I had for his failure to graduate/get into med school on the first try also went out the window after this conversation.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the PR schools are LCME, meaning they are just like any other US school. However, they are hard to get into without fluent spanish, ties to region etc. I'd say he probably has the same chance at a state school he's not from with high in-state bias. His parents are idiots though. In their time, it was fine to go FMG, but with the increase in the number of US DO and US MD, the number of residency spots staying put, and FMGs not being able to apply for AOA spots ... it's absurd to go to a non-US med school. I wouldn't like stop being the guy's friend over it or anything though. I have tons of stupid friends. You'll get the last laugh when he flunks out of SGU, or has to apply 3 times to get a FP spot in the midwest.
 
Well obviously you can do it, but I wanted to know how competitive are surgery and specialized surgery compared to internal medicine or derm. Where does it fall on the spectrum?
 
badapplestix said:
Well obviously you can do it, but I wanted to know how competitive are surgery and specialized surgery compared to internal medicine or derm. Where does it fall on the spectrum?
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Your question confuses me, I'll answer it both ways I believe it can be interpreted:

1. Q: How competitive is specialized surgery compared to internal med or derm?

A: In my opinion, matching into these fields, in terms of competitiveness goes (from hardest to easiest): derm > plastic surgery (first one is very debatable) > ear, nose and throat > neurosurgery > urological surgery >>>>>> general surgery >>> internal medicine. I personally believe there is going to be a g-surg shortage and it will be a good field in 5-10 years.

2. Q: How hard is it to match into these fields as a DO?

A: It's very difficult to match into competitive fields as an MD or a DO. You need to be top of the tops in just about every way. It is extremely difficult to match ACGME (MD) fields for things like integrated plastic surgery and ENT as a DO. However, there are AOA residencies in each field that only accept DO applicants. Check out DO school match lists, you'll see them littered with AOA neurosurg, ENT, g-surg, etc etc. You won't see derm because you start as a PGY2 as a DO after a rotating internship, but that doesn't mean people don't get into derm as a DO, they just do it after an unlinked rotating internship (MDs do it as a PGY2 after a year long LINKED internship - hence why you see it on match lists). Hope this helped.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Yeah, the PR schools are LCME, meaning they are just like any other US school. However, they are hard to get into without fluent spanish, ties to region etc. I'd say he probably has the same chance at a state school he's not from with high in-state bias. His parents are idiots though. In their time, it was fine to go FMG, but with the increase in the number of US DO and US MD, the number of residency spots staying put, and FMGs not being able to apply for AOA spots ... it's absurd to go to a non-US med school. I wouldn't like stop being the guy's friend over it or anything though. I have tons of stupid friends. You'll get the last laugh when he flunks out of SGU, or has to apply 3 times to get a FP spot in the midwest.
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Thanks for the info. As for this fellow, his folks lived in Cuba for a while and he consequently was raised with some Spanish being spoken around his house and such. (I believe his parents were actually originally from Spain, interestingly enough.) Thus, he actually might not be out of place at a PR school. The only reason why I was suspicious of Ponce and the other PR schools was that I remembered their incoming stat averages being awfully low when I looked at school averages way back when. He's also currently a resident of Florida, so he would have the coveted in-state status at places like Miami and UF. The problem with him getting into MD schools like that is twofold: 1) his current stats are 3.4/27 (he's retaking the MCAT and figures he should be able to get at least a 30) and 2) he has nothing extracurricular to put down on his resume aside from some shadowing that his surgeon father arranged. On the other hand, he might have the "underrepresented minority" edge on account of his being Hispanic, so who knows.

The real reason why I was considering not talking to him anymore, frankly, is that ever since I told him I was going DO it's as if his level of respect for me has diminished. That's really what bothers me about the whole situation; heck, at least I'm going to med school next year! He isn't. From the way he acts now you'd think I'd told him I was giving up medicine to become a drug hustler or something.
 
Thanks, your answers were very helpful. I have one more question--why would a DO try to match MD rather than DO?
 
badapplestix said:
Thanks, your answers were very helpful. I have one more question--why would a DO try to match MD rather than DO?
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There are way more MD residencies than there are DO residencies. If you open yourself to the idea of doing either then you increase the chances of getting both the location and the specialty you want.

And why wouldn't you apply to an MD residency? It is going to teach you the same things that you would learn in an MD residency. It isn't as if DOs are anti-MD.
 
Yeah but I read some somewhere that in order to do the MD match, you have to skip the DO match. So why would someone skip the DO match? Just because there are more MD opportunities and residencies with better location?
 
badapplestix said:
Yeah but I read some somewhere that in order to do the MD match, you have to skip the DO match. So why would someone skip the DO match? Just because there are more MD opportunities and residencies with better location?
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The DO match occurs before the MD match and if you match DO you are automatically dropped from the MD match. So if the place you have your sites set on happens to be an MD residency, you might just skip the DO match so that you can get the spot you want during the MD match.
 
slim78 said:
The DO match occurs before the MD match and if you match DO you are automatically dropped from the MD match. So if the place you have your sites set on happens to be an MD residency, you might just skip the DO match so that you can get the spot you want during the MD match.
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Which is true, but then you're gambling that you actually will be picked up by an MD residency at all...which is no mean feat if you're trying to get into some of the harder residencies as a DO. This is one of the reasons why there aren't so many DOs in some of the harder-to-get-into MD residencies...most DO students are aware that there is anti-DO bias in some of these residencies and they'd prefer not to get rebuffed and then get stuck scrambling.
 
badapplestix said:
Thanks, your answers were very helpful. I have one more question--why would a DO try to match MD rather than DO?
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slim broke it down nicely. Feel free to post any further questions you have in this thread though. As you can tell, there are a lot of members over here willing to help. 👍
 
dozitgetchahi said:
Which is true, but then you're gambling that you actually will be picked up by an MD residency at all...which is no mean feat if you're trying to get into some of the harder residencies as a DO. This is one of the reasons why there aren't so many DOs in some of the harder-to-get-into MD residencies...most DO students are aware that there is anti-DO bias in some of these residencies and they'd prefer not to get rebuffed and then get stuck scrambling.
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Correct. I think most of those who actually skip the DO match and opt for just the MD match are either going into a not-so-competitive specialty or into a program they auditioned for and have received some sort of reassurance that they are likely to match into.

I'm sure some are just gambling with their future. But even then, most med students aren't stupid and those who end up in that situation were probably pretty aware of the fact that they'd either end up scrambling or reapplying the next year. Everyone has different life circumstances and for some this might seem like a viable option.

This is just my opinion.
 
From my perspective DOs are like Macintosh computers. Which are arguably just as good as PC's (MD), some would say better, some worse. Like DOs, there are fewer Macs than PCs, but I think we tend to be more user friendly. Finally Macs tend to be more expensive....kinda like DO schools. :laugh:
 
EricH said:
From my perspective DOs are like Macintosh computers. Which are arguably just as good as PC's (MD), some would say better, some worse. Like DOs, there are fewer Macs than PCs, but I think we tend to be more user friendly. Finally Macs tend to be more expensive....kinda like DO schools. :laugh:
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While that's a clever analogy, I will NEVER switch to Macs! :meanie:
 
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