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[shadesofgrey]

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if you get audited based off of time and you are claiming you spent 20 minutes per RFC patient to try and bill a 99213 E&M your schedule better not be booked for 15 minute encounters

Not saying you should bill a 99213 for RFC's, but the time billed now includes documentation which could theoretically make up the difference.

 

[LossToFollowUp]

if you get audited based off of time and you are claiming you spent 20 minutes per RFC patient to try and bill a 99213 E&M your schedule better not be booked for 15 minute encounters

Actually I have been wondering about this. Have they been auditing schedules? I haven't seen any audits outside of notes so far.

 

[Pronation]

Not saying you should bill a 99213 for RFC's, but the time billed now includes documentation which could theoretically make up the difference.

Good luck with that. E&M submitted with a nail/callus code is a red flag for insurances and they will absolutely review your documentation. If you are not treating a new problem that they have, insurance will toss out your 99213.

 

[shadesofgrey]

Good luck with that. E&M submitted with a nail/callus code is a red flag for insurances and they will absolutely review your documentation. If you are not treating a new problem that they have, insurance will toss out your 99213.

I'm not advocating for routinely billing a E&M with RFC just for ****s and giggles, but when justified they get paid, in my experience.

 

[619]

Not sure why you have such a negative attitude towards podiatry. We have a 4 doctor practice with no one making less than $180k per year. Sure we trim nails for at risk patients but we provide wound care and are the specialty that is called for foot issues from the ED not PA or NP. We all do surgery and receive referrals from all specialties because they respect our ability. I know of NO general surgeons doing foot surgery as was suggested . We have podiatry residents that work with us and all have had excellent practice positions on graduation. Every specialty has minor procedures that they perform in office settings which may be less than exciting but that’s part of the job. Podiatry is a great profession and respected by the physicians in our community. Don’t hesitate to look into our schools for your future profession .

False. I personally don't have a negative attitude towards podiatry. I own my practice, I enjoy my career and I am doing very well with great income so I don't know where you got the idea maybe because I am against nursing home/mobile podiatry. If you or anyone enjoys nursing home/mobile podiatry, then y'all can pursue that section of podiatry. I will be in my clinic treating patients.

On the side note, my CPA contacted me yesterday and she is almost done with my taxes. She said I owe about $80k - $90k in personal taxes for 2022. I have the money to pay it so no worries. I was thinking in my head that what I pay in taxes is what a new associate makes a year.

 

[staffdoc]

Because anyone can take a look at pod jobs offered online right now and most of them are around 100k.

What is the pay structure for your associate making 180k? How many patients a day are they seeing to make that 180k?

You are getting calls from the ED for now… just wait until the hospital hires an NP to start doing limb salvage.

Of course you aren’t seeing general surgeons doing foot pus cases, they don’t want to do them.

Good thing your not a negative person 🙄. Our doctors work in the office, Wound care clinic, Hospital etc. I have been on staff here for 30+ years and nothing has changed regarding the ED referrals. Actually we may receive more referrals now then ever because they appreciate our abilities. The hospital supports our residency program which has grown over time. Things in our practice and profession are looking up

 

[Pronation]

Good thing your not a negative person 🙄. Our doctors work in the office, Wound care clinic, Hospital etc. I have been on staff here for 30+ years and nothing has changed regarding the ED referrals. Actually we may receive more referrals now then ever because they appreciate our abilities. The hospital supports our residency program which has grown over time. Things in our practice and profession are looking up

Are you going to answer any of the questions? A lot has changed since you started practicing. For example, bloodletting is no longer considered the standard of care by physicians. PA/NP scope is rapidly expanding. Somebody above posted examples for hospital ads for an APP to do diabetic care. It’s pretty obvious that it’s only a matter of time before this encroaches into pod territory.

 

[staffdoc]

Are you going to answer any of the questions? A lot has changed since you started practicing. For example, bloodletting is no longer considered the standard of care by physicians. PA/NP scope is rapidly expanding. Somebody above posted examples for hospital ads for an APP to do diabetic care. It’s pretty obvious that it’s only a matter of time before this encroaches into pod territory.

Funny you saying that when it seems like bloodletting is your mode of operation Pa/ NP have affected some specialties esp primary care. The sky is not falling. Adapt and become successful.

 

[619]

Are you going to answer any of the questions? A lot has changed since you started practicing. For example, bloodletting is no longer considered the standard of care by physicians. PA/NP scope is rapidly expanding. Somebody above posted examples for hospital ads for an APP to do diabetic care. It’s pretty obvious that it’s only a matter of time before this encroaches into pod territory.

Don't waste your time. I can answer for you. His associates are starting out max $100k base (this is me being generous) with something like 25% - 30% "bonus" after 3x collection. We all know any area that has a residency program or school is never going to pay well. The associates who are making $180k has probably been working there for about 3-5 years (or more) before being able to reach such a high income ceiling for a private practice.

Think about this, the income ceiling ($180-$200k) for an associate at a private practice (after working for many years) is the floor (1st year contract) for an organization job assuming most start you out at $200k with benefits.

 

[PMG03470]

Not job thread related, but - I don't know your situation but I would strongly recommend learning the CMS documents for RFC/wounds and not listening to the boss. More often than not PP associates are unknowingly learning fraudulent billing practices from their boss (myself included my first year out). They will absolutely throw you under the audit bus to save themselves.

I do have a very good understanding of CMS and we are following it to a T… like I said, you have to either follow the diagnosis and treatment section, or go based on time. We do not follow based on time, we go off of diagnosis and treatment. People assume you need both and that is just plain incorrect.

 

[pod squad]

Somebody above posted examples for hospital ads for an APP to do diabetic care. It’s pretty obvious that it’s only a matter of time before this encroaches into pod territory.

Exactly...there will always be a podiatry presence at most of these organizations. However, instead of a group of 4+ DPMs employed by the hospital/organization, there will be 1 or 2 "big names" and a slew of PA/NP/RNs to support them. Where does that leave the rest of the profession? Dueling it out in the PP world most likely

 

[Adam Smasher]

I do have a very good understanding of CMS and we are following it to a T… like I said, you have to either follow the diagnosis and treatment section, or go based on time. We do not follow based on time, we go off of diagnosis and treatment. People assume you need both and that is just plain incorrect.

Kindly educate us all then. I don't mean to pick on you because you're not the first person I've heard of to bill a 99213 for a diabetic foot evaluation. How does a routine visit equate to a level 3 e/m service?

You diagnose DM2, so fine I guess you could convince an auditor that you're managing a chronic problem.

You in all likelihood have zero data points

So where is the risk complexity in this visit? Your decision to perform a minor procedure (nail debridement)? I admit, it doesn't take much, but I don't see this standing up to scrutiny.

 

[619]

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[dtrack22]

People assume you need both and that is just plain incorrect

Nobody here thinks that

You diagnose DM2, so fine I guess you could convince an auditor that you're managing a chronic problem.

You aren’t the one managing their diabetes or their neuropathy though…

 

[PMG03470]

Kindly educate us all then. I don't mean to pick on you because you're not the first person I've heard of to bill a 99213 for a diabetic foot evaluation. How does a routine visit equate to a level 3 e/m service?

You diagnose DM2, so fine I guess you could convince an auditor that you're managing a chronic problem.

You in all likelihood have zero data points

So where is the risk complexity in this visit? Your decision to perform a minor procedure (nail debridement)? I admit, it doesn't take much, but I don't see this standing up to scrutiny.

If it were nails I would bill only procedure codes. I have a small handful of diabetics who do not wish to have their nails trimmed but come in every 3 months (if severe neuropathy), every 6 months (if mild/moderate neuropathy), or annually if no issues. I am usually ordering shoes, or sending them for ABIs if indicated. A lot of them have venous stasis or tinea that I am rxing for.

If it’s nails then it’s nails… I’m saying 99213 only for the ones who come in for a comprehensive exam.

 

[Pronation]

Don't waste your time. I can answer for you. His associates are starting out max $100k base (this is me being generous) with something like 25% - 30% "bonus" after 3x collection. We all know any area that has a residency program or school is never going to pay well. The associates who are making $180k has probably been working there for about 3-5 years (or more) before being able to reach such a high income ceiling for a private practice.

Think about this, the income ceiling ($180-$200k) for an associate at a private practice (after working for many years) is the floor (1st year contract) for an organization job assuming most start you out at $200k with benefits.

Yup. We all know why he’s dodging the questions. I bet this guy is the owner/partner with another older pod and they are absolutely milking that poor associate seeing 35 patients per day to earn that $180k, whereas that same amount of work would earn you $300k+ at an organizational job.

 

[Adam Smasher]

You aren’t the one managing their diabetes or their neuropathy though…

I know that and you know that but an insurance auditor might not know that

I am usually ordering shoes, or sending them for ABIs if indicated. A lot of them have venous stasis or tinea that I am rxing for.

and I still want to know where's the risk complexity? Diabetic shoes are harmless pieces of plastic and rubber (straight forward risk). Ordering ABI is one datapoint, not the two you need. I suppose you could say refilling their antifungal cream is prescription drug management? Otherwise, I don't see the low complexity medical decision-making in a diabetic foot eval.

 

[Pronation]

I know that and you know that but an insurance auditor might not know that



and I still want to know where's the risk complexity? Diabetic shoes are harmless pieces of plastic and rubber (straight forward risk). Ordering ABI is one datapoint, not the two you need. I suppose you could say refilling their antifungal cream is prescription drug management? Otherwise, I don't see the low complexity medical decision-making in a diabetic foot eval.

There is no complexity. Insurances can’t stand TFPs that try to milk an E&M out of a pedicure visit. This practice will eventually get flagged.

 

[619]

and I still want to know where's the risk complexity? Diabetic shoes are harmless pieces of plastic and rubber (straight forward risk). Ordering ABI is one datapoint, not the two you need. I suppose you could say refilling their antifungal cream is prescription drug management? Otherwise, I don't see the low complexity medical decision-making in a diabetic foot eval.

So you want him to bill a 99212 or work for free?

Any foot that steps into my clinic to see me is at least a 99213 and then add any procedure I do. Patients come to see me because they have a reason, concern or problem I can solve. Even if it is for a medical advice, it is still at least a level 3. Only podiatrist still bill 99212. I can't think of any specialists that bills a 99212 or 99202.

PA/NP are barely billing 99212 or 99202. I know because I see their referral notes and sometimes it includes the office visit code.

 

[underwood]

Yup. We all know why he’s dodging the questions. I bet this guy is the owner/partner with another older pod and they are absolutely milking that poor associate seeing 35 patients per day to earn that $180k, whereas that same amount of work would earn you $300k+ at an organizational job.

Yup. We all know why he’s dodging the questions. I bet this guy is the owner/partner with another older pod and they are absolutely milking that poor associate seeing 35 patients per day to earn that $180k, whereas that same amount of work would earn you $300k+ at an organizational job.

If someone is actually seeing 35 pts a day, or let’s say 25-30 pts a day, 48 weeks a year. On average how much collections should they collect?

 

[Pronation]

So you want him to bill a 99212 or work for free?

Any foot that steps into my clinic to see me is at least a 99213 and then add any procedure I do. Patients come to see me because they have a reason, concern or problem I can solve. Even if it is for a medical advice, it is still at least a level 3. Only podiatrist still bill 99212. I can't think of any specialists that bills a 99212 or 99202.

PA/NP are barely billing 99212 or 99202. I know because I see their referral notes and sometimes it includes the office visit code.

I can’t think of any specialists doing pedicures.

 

[dtrack22]

Only podiatrist still bill 99212. I can't think of any specialists that bills a 99212

I mean a final post op that falls outside of the 3 month global is a level 2. If you schedule follow ups on MSK pathology there will eventually be the visit where they walk in to tell you everything is great and leave. That’s a level 2. Ortho bills level 2 visits. Well, the PAs in the practice are hopefully seeing those types of visits so the surgeon can see higher acuity stuff, but they are getting billed. Any specialty treating acute problems is inevitably going to have some level 2s.

 

[deleted682934]

I mean a final post op that falls outside of the 3 month global is a level 2. If you schedule follow ups on MSK pathology there will eventually be the visit where they walk in to tell you everything is great and leave. That’s a level 2. Ortho bills level 2 visits. Well, the PAs in the practice are hopefully seeing those types of visits so the surgeon can see higher acuity stuff, but they are getting billed. Any specialty treating acute problems is inevitably going to have some level 2s.

I agree. Any visit where the patient shows up to tell me everything is great "I just wanted to tell you" is a level 2

 

[pod squad]

If someone is actually seeing 35 pts a day, or let’s say 25-30 pts a day, 48 weeks a year. On average how much collections should they collect?

If it's 5 days/week, I would imagine minimum $250k but probably closer to 300k. Assuming $100 average per visit

 

[Adam Smasher]

So you want him to bill a 99212 or work for free?

Any foot that steps into my clinic to see me is at least a 99213 and then add any procedure I do. Patients come to see me because they have a reason, concern or problem I can solve. Even if it is for a medical advice, it is still at least a level 3. Only podiatrist still bill 99212. I can't think of any specialists that bills a 99212 or 99202.

Look, I'm on your and @PMG03470 side here. I would love for insurances to pay us for the value of our time given all the schooling and training we go through. If I'm sitting on an untapped goldmine of e/m service codes, I want to know how to do it.

I also understand rules are rules. I know level 3 means low-complexity decision making (published examples: ordering PT, discussing OTC meds, decision for minor procedure) and I know that even for a regular diabetic check-up the decision-making is very straight-forward. So do the profession a favor and give us a break down, because we all want to see each other succeed.

 

[underwood]

If it's 5 days/week, I would imagine minimum $250k but probably closer to 300k. Assuming $100 average per visit

I was asking overall collections for the practice? Ok so even with 100 average per visit that’s about 600k in collections if seeing 25 patients a day 5 days a week. So making 180k bringing in 600k is 30%. Definitely not good.

 

[pod squad]

I was asking overall collections for the practice? Ok so even with 100 average per visit that’s about 600k in collections if seeing 25 patients a day 5 days a week. So making 180k bringing in 600k is 30%. Definitely not good.

Agreed, and then on top of that who knows if they're even getting benefits. Lot of PP owners out there try to convince associates to be 'independent contractors'. No benefits, no malpractice, double the employment taxes. Only in podiatry...

 

[staffdoc]

Don't waste your time. I can answer for you. His associates are starting out max $100k base (this is me being generous) with something like 25% - 30% "bonus" after 3x collection. We all know any area that has a residency program or school is never going to pay well. The associates who are making $180k has probably been working there for about 3-5 years (or more) before being able to reach such a high income ceiling for a private practice.

Think about this, the income ceiling ($180-$200k) for an associate at a private practice (after working for many years) is the floor (1st year contract) for an organization job assuming most start you out at $200k with benefits.

You know nothing and it’s obvious. Our pay scale has nothing to do with your rants on podiatry and it’s future. I said our doctors make $180 and up and I meant it . As I said before your negativity is rampant and one can only hope young practitioners know better than to listen to your pessimism .

 

[619]

I agree. Any visit where the patient shows up to tell me everything is great "I just wanted to tell you" is a level 2

Those kind of patient call over the phone to say they are doing great and cancel their follow up appointments. No one in my neck of the woods is going to pay $50 or $70 or over $100 co-pay just to tell you they are doing great.

 

[PointyNippers]

So you want him to bill a 99212 or work for free?

Any foot that steps into my clinic to see me is at least a 99213 and then add any procedure I do. Patients come to see me because they have a reason, concern or problem I can solve. Even if it is for a medical advice, it is still at least a level 3. Only podiatrist still bill 99212. I can't think of any specialists that bills a 99212 or 99202.

PA/NP are barely billing 99212 or 99202. I know because I see their referral notes and sometimes it includes the office visit code.

^^^ this. 99213 is definitely justifiable through the eyes of insurance given all the proper documentation. I know multiple practices that have billed this way for years without raising any red flags or ever getting audited.

 

[619]

You know nothing and it’s obvious. Our pay scale has nothing to do with your rants on podiatry and it’s future. I said our doctors make $180 and up and I meant it . As I said before your negativity is rampant and one can only hope young practitioners know better than to listen to your pessimism

Are you saying your starting base salary in your practice is $180k and up for new associates? We all know here that is a bold face lie.

I understand why your positivity is rampant about the profession because you get free labor from residents and you have young associates to milk. I bet you are very excited about the 2 new schools opening so you continue to get free labor from residents and future associates (for cheap) are guaranteed.

I only hope young practitioners, residents, students and future students know better than to listen to your optimism.

 

[icebreaker32]

Don't waste your time. I can answer for you. His associates are starting out max $100k base (this is me being generous) with something like 25% - 30% "bonus" after 3x collection. We all know any area that has a residency program or school is never going to pay well. The associates who are making $180k has probably been working there for about 3-5 years (or more) before being able to reach such a high income ceiling for a private practice.

Think about this, the income ceiling ($180-$200k) for an associate at a private practice (after working for many years) is the floor (1st year contract) for an organization job assuming most start you out at $200k with benefits.

I am not insinuating this is an associate mill, but outside of podiatry most would be offered partnership in a couple years.

It is fairly common for this not to be offered in podiatry.

It is not just about the ability to make more income as a partner, but to have true job stability and some input into decisions.

The reason this is less common in podiatry is the same as all our other problems...SATURATION.

 

[619]

Look, I'm on your and @PMG03470 side here. I would love for insurances to pay us for the value of our time given all the schooling and training we go through. If I'm sitting on an untapped goldmine of e/m service codes, I want to know how to do it.

I also understand rules are rules. I know level 3 means low-complexity decision making (published examples: ordering PT, discussing OTC meds, decision for minor procedure) and I know that even for a regular diabetic check-up the decision-making is very straight-forward. So do the profession a favor and give us a break down, because we all want to see each other succeed.

All the patients on my schedule are here for a problem that they need me to solve. I have said it in my previous threads that my practice is a revolving door. Half my patients are new and half are follow ups. I am not seeing a patient for eternity just to bill an E&M continuously.

To answer your question about my break down - I tell a lot of my patients to cancel their appointments if they are feeling better or they can call to reschedule if condition worsens or they still have pain. This way I keep my schedule open and it quickly fills up with new patients looking for same day or same week appointments. I don't have any other secret sauce. Maybe the secret sauce is not to fill up your schedule with nail care and you easily see all level 3 patient problems.

A patient with a new problem or worsening same problem is a level 3 because treatment/management is going to change to address the pathology. I don't know what else to say. If you want to bill a level 2 all day, be my guest.

 

[Adam Smasher]

@619 , I think we agree on the same things, like improving pts don't need to be reappointed, and worsening tendinitis/fasciitis is clearly a level 3 visit.

What no one has answered is how @PMG03470 and other docs are able to bill a routine diabetic foot evaluation as a level 3. Reread my posts, that's all I'm asking

 

[Pronation]

Are you saying your starting base salary in your practice is $180k and up for new associates? We all know here that is a bold face lie.

I understand why your positivity is rampant about the profession because you get free labor from residents and you have young associates to milk. I bet you are very excited about the 2 new schools opening so you continue to get free labor from residents and future associates (for cheap) are guaranteed.

I only hope young practitioners, residents, students and future students know better than to listen to your optimism.

100% this.

 

[AttackNME]

@619 , I think we agree on the same things, like improving pts don't need to be reappointed, and worsening tendinitis/fasciitis is clearly a level 3 visit.

What no one has answered is how @PMG03470 and other docs are able to bill a routine diabetic foot evaluation as a level 3. Reread my posts, that's all I'm asking

Esp for low risk diabetic foot exams where they come because their pcp told them they needed to see a podiatrist, you can’t bill anything for it if you’re doing it by the book. If they truly have no problems whatsoever and are there only because of pcp recommendation, that’s an out of pocket visit by the patient according to apma coding resource billing experts

 

[staffdoc]

100% this.

Once again you assume that you are all knowing. I never said that I start new doctors at $180. I don’t make a penny on the backs of my residents. I never bill for a patient that I personally do not see.

 

[Boba Foot]

There is no complexity. Insurances can’t stand TFPs that try to milk an E&M out of a pedicure visit. This practice will eventually get flagged.

Careful brother, you’re sounding a lot like ExperiencedDPM, cheerleader for the insurance companies.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Esp for low risk diabetic foot exams where they come because their pcp told them they needed to see a podiatrist, you can’t bill anything for it if you’re doing it by the book. If they truly have no problems whatsoever and are there only because of pcp recommendation, that’s an out of pocket visit by the patient according to apma coding resource billing experts

Thanks for the tip. If this happens to you, how do you or your practice inform the patient?

 

[AttackNME]

Thanks for the tip. If this happens to you, how do you or your practice inform the patient?

Tbh I just found out last week when I got fed up with these totally asymptomatic referrals but I don’t wanna be a jerk by downplaying their concerns. I just didn’t know what icd code to put so I finally decided to look it up.

I think going forward I’ll educate patient that since they were referred by their primary I won’t bill them for the initial visit, but annual checkups if they have no symptoms will be out of pocket full price. I’m hoping it’ll build good faith for the patient to followup when they actually have problems.

Here’s a reference incase you don’t subscribe to apmacodingrc, it basically sums up what you need to know on this topic

Annual Diabetic Foot Exams | TLD Systems

“I think it is time for this topic to resurface. Being a coder/biller for a number of podiatrists around the U.S., I am finding that some are still scheduling “annual diabetic foot exams” as a routine on all of their diabetic patients. They are then performing a “full physical exam” and trying...

www.tldsystems.com

 

[deleted682934]

Those kind of patient call over the phone to say they are doing great and cancel their follow up appointments. No one in my neck of the woods is going to pay $50 or $70 or over $100 co-pay just to tell you they are doing great.

Those kind of patient call over the phone to say they are doing great and cancel their follow up appointments. No one in my neck of the woods is going to pay $50 or $70 or over $100 co-pay just to tell you they are doing great.

Sucks to suck? This happens to me several appointments a week. I also try to get people out the door to open up new patient appointments. If they say "I'm 90% better," I tell them to come back as needed.

 

[billBOB213]

Agreed, and then on top of that who knows if they're even getting benefits. Lot of PP owners out there try to convince associates to be 'independent contractors'. No benefits, no malpractice, double the employment taxes. Only in podiatry...

Not just in podiatry, I worked for an Ortho office as an independent contractor.
Where THE DIFFERENCE lies is once again the pay. My base was much higher than a podiatry associate base. So even though I didn’t have benefits, it was offset by my big bad quasi Ortho base salary. Being a 1099 employee was actually pretty solid for tax purposes.

If you actually get paid what you’re worth the 1099 route can be good.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

If you actually get paid what you’re worth the 1099 route can be good.

Or fraudulent if not done right.

You are w2 if the place you works at manages your patient schedule and you just show up to work. I'm not sure why everyone thinks they're 1099 so easily. This should be discussed with attorney or tax professional.

W-2 vs. Self-Employed | White Coat Investor

Is it better to take a job as an employee or as an independent contractor? The short answer is "it depends." The best answer may be "both."

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

 

[pod squad]

Or fraudulent if not done right.

You are w2 if the place you works at manages your patient schedule and you just show up to work. I'm not sure why everyone thinks they're 1099 so easily. This should be discussed with attorney or tax professional.

W-2 vs. Self-Employed | White Coat Investor

Is it better to take a job as an employee or as an independent contractor? The short answer is "it depends." The best answer may be "both."

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

Yep exactly, most of these associate 1099 gigs take the 'independent' out of independent contractor

 

[toetransplant]

I mean when are you guys even starting looking for jobs? I’m PGY2, I have friends who do health care recruiting along the east coast so I’m not crazy concerned. I’d rather make connections, but residency makes that hard to get to do that. XD.

 

[deleted285117]

I started PGY-1 (networked)... interviewed end of PGY-2 and signed beginning PGY-3.

 

[Pronation]

I mean when are you guys even starting looking for jobs? I’m PGY2, I have friends who do health care recruiting along the east coast so I’m not crazy concerned. I’d rather make connections, but residency makes that hard to get to do that. XD.

You should start now, otherwise you are going to be in for a rude awakening even with your recruiter friend. Ecks Dee.

 

[toetransplant]

You should start now, otherwise you are going to be in for a rude awakening even with your recruiter friend. Ecks Dee.

Yeah, I just put together my resume and cover letter these last few weeks. I mean, I’ll send to pod groups in areas I’m interested in. I feel most open positions are looking to be filled <6months.

 

[deleted285117]

Yeah, I just put together my resume and cover letter these last few weeks. I mean, I’ll send to pod groups in areas I’m interested in. I feel most open positions are looking to be filled <6months.

Avoid pod groups.

 

[heybrother]

Avoid pod groups.

Ignore this man! Apply to podiatry groups. And then when they offer you $75K/20% share your stories here. Podiatry students need to see what's waiting for them. People need to know you may have to spend a year and apply to 100 jobs to have any chance of something decent.