TFP Thread

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Back to TFPs and nail fungus ...anyone have any literature for kids. Have a 3 year old. Yes 3 with fungus. Is there a peds dose of lamisil?
Bit of a double edged sword here. The kid likely doesn’t care about it. The parents do. It’s a cosmetic problem.

Why bother with lamisil and on the other end - a topical isn’t gonna work with a kid because he’s gonna mess w the laquer on his nails and the parents aren’t gonna want to apply it. Also - do you even expect a kid to swallow a pill for 90 days at 3 years old?

The real solution IMO is let it be and wait til they’re older. Just like with most of early peds pathology in podiatry to be honest.
 
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Bit of a double edged sword here. The kid likely doesn’t care about it. The parents do. It’s a cosmetic problem.

Why bother with lamisil and on the other end - a topical isn’t gonna work with a kid because he’s gonna mess w the laquer on his nails and the parents aren’t gonna want to apply it.

The real solution IMO is let it be and wait til they’re older
Yes, "skillful neglect" as the pedi orthos call it.
Can't go wrong with that... as long as you can navigate the parent trap well.

praying season 17 GIF
 
There's ample dermatology literature concering pediatric terbinafine dosing for things like tinea capitis and I believe even onychomycosis. Someone should treat it. Should a podiatrist treat it in a 3 year old though - most of us probably aren't going to be comfortable. I had a child with a bizarre fungal looking nail that occurred just after the child had gotten over hand/foot/mouth. I helped facilitate setting them up with an academic dermatologist. I have written for teenagers before.
 
There's ample dermatology literature concering pediatric terbinafine dosing for things like tinea capitis and I believe even onychomycosis. Someone should treat it. Should a podiatrist treat it in a 3 year old though - most of us probably aren't going to be comfortable. I had a child with a bizarre fungal looking nail that occurred just after the child had gotten over hand/foot/mouth. I helped facilitate setting them up with an academic dermatologist. I have written for teenagers before.
Is there even a liquid terbinafine that is approved by Medicaid
 
Bit of a double edged sword here. The kid likely doesn’t care about it. The parents do. It’s a cosmetic problem.

Why bother with lamisil and on the other end - a topical isn’t gonna work with a kid because he’s gonna mess w the laquer on his nails and the parents aren’t gonna want to apply it. Also - do you even expect a kid to swallow a pill for 90 days at 3 years old?

The real solution IMO is let it be and wait til they’re older. Just like with most of early peds pathology in podiatry to be honest.
I don't to topicals in adults ...I figure can just crush it up and either snort it or put in apple sauce. Depends on how much the 3 year likes to party. But seriously. Dosage? Assume normal 3 year old weight and minimal to mild alcohol usage.
 
I don't to topicals in adults ...I figure can just crush it up and either snort it or put in apple sauce. Depends on how much the 3 year likes to party. But seriously. Dosage? Assume normal 3 year old weight and minimal to mild alcohol usage.

Sir this is the TFP thread
 
I don't to topicals in adults ...I figure can just crush it up and either snort it or put in apple sauce. Depends on how much the 3 year likes to party. But seriously. Dosage? Assume normal 3 year old weight and minimal to mild alcohol usage.
Sounds like a peds (derm?) referral.

In this case I might actually consider a nail biopsy/KOH stain or whatever people are doing now (I dont test nails. Ever. Never have and wouldnt know how).
 
Sounds like a peds (derm?) referral.

In this case I might actually consider a nail biopsy/KOH stain or whatever people are doing now (I dont test nails. Ever. Never have and wouldnt know how).
Yeah but we know what it's going to say. I did collect it and sent it off. Literally first time in my life I cultured a nail....but didn't send it in time so they rejected it.
 
The real utility of nail testing is when it's probably negative but the patient is really anxious about mild nail dystrophy and wants antifungals. ("I stubbed my toe last summer and now I have fungus") Because otherwise they'll keep asking for refills ("why won't it get any better?")
 
What I do on 99% of nail matrix proc, esp recur ones... my main assist and I bust these out in about 15min usually (maybe 25min if bilat bi-border)
  • double or triple skin prep, cryo spray and 4-5cc lico most adults (don't try to be a hero and do 2-3cc block... wastes time, causes pain very often), inform them they may get a bruise at inject site and no problem
  • digit band (arm IV tourniquet 15cents cut in half, twist hemostat... so phenol's not diluted, aids visualization) on 90% of ppl with good bloodflow (don't do matrix at all if any question of PAD, do avulsion +/- abx on PAD pts)
  • After edge avulsion, use the 6200 sterile blade tip to cut the matrix tissue in a square pattern, pull it out with hemostat (basically do a surgical matrix AND then chemical)
  • Phenol single use vials (fresher chemical, doesn't vapor up the room, no chance of big problem if bottle dropped)
  • MICRO tip cotton applicators (this is a must, regular cotton tips a hospital or MSG office are terrible)
  • Approx 3x30sec for most matrix, maybe 4 or 5 for a revision that regrew ... alc rinse 4-6 times over (rinse is quantity of them, not volume... chem class), rinse with the 1cc lido left in the syringe, very light small compress dsg2" kling stretch around ankle 4x4 soft at proc site and 1" coban over that fits into their shoe.
  • Post procedure care bag with alc pads and fabric band aids and print instructions (costs me well less then $1, save them trip to drug store)

I tell them to just supply the OTC acet or nsaid, use it when they get home (before lido wears off) and then as needed (usually 2-5d).
Instruction is to leave my small roll bandage for about 2 days, then alc and band aid at least daily, showers but NO soaking or swimming. Alc and air it out whenever sitting with no pets around. Abx oint only if looking very dry.

The soaking is for imbeciles. There is absolutely no evidence for it. It makes no sense. It is something PCPs and midlevels and dumb pods advise it, and I have no idea why. It's taught that way in our schools and residencies, it's on the internet, and it shouldn't be. Tap water's not sterile. Wounds do better neutral/dry than macerated... and matrix is inherently a draining wound. We all know that 95% of the nail procedures that get infected got macerated.
These do much better drying out sooner and making escar... I encourage airing out whenever possible after the first couple days. It's better to do no soaking (showers ok, then alc cleanse and band aid if they are going to wear shoes). At the 2-3wk follow up (defintely 10+ days 🙂 ), i usually just do a look, sometimes a curette debridement, betadine it if they're not allergic to really dry it, allow return to soaks/swim then or soon after, another alc + band aid bag if they need it, rare PO abx and very rare I&D small abscess (they'd 90% call office sooner).

....so yeah, I basically do matrix normally, with 3 things most pods do not:
  1. Add the surgical matrix part... whatever we can do to lower recurrence (we are the specialist... PCP/Peds who referred wants results, people pay money, time off work to get these done - assuming typical PP patients).
  2. Single use phenol vials... expensive, sure, but many advantages, better results (again... we're specialist, $3 is nothing for $200+ proc, ppl spend time and money and want best outcomes). I'm not saying that PP pts are better than govt VA or MCA or etc patients getting "free" visits with little choice of doc/facility. They all deserve good care and results, but there is 100% an expectations difference. Private pts have choices. PCPs sending their private pts have choices. Give the best outcomes (if you have any control of your supplies).
  3. No soaking... common sense to me, but to each their own. Bags with alc and band aids (again, make it easy, encourage compliance, and good doc/pt relation move). Even if you can't control supplies, you can definitely control the post procedure instructions.
I tell people the success is 85-90% for each nail edge treated if not infected at the time - maybe 50/50 if highly cellulitic or abscessed. I am amaaaaaazed how many recurs there are from other docs... no just spicules, total regrowth despite patient saying the used phenol. I don't know if it's old phenol, bad technique, it was highly cellulitic to begin with? There is even gangrene occasionally from doing these on PVD patients; I've seen it and it's very sad convo with patients. I have rare recurs of my own, and I might re-do those without charging if the pt clearly followed direction (will just charge e/m, not proc).

This is fairly easy procedure is not easy... hence tons of PCPs and UCare and midlevels and even pods messing them up. Still, we do these basically every day (sometimes many times in a day!), and we should be awesome and fast at them. That's what works for me.
This is about word for word what I do. I thought I was in LA LA land everyone hollering SOAK THE Foot. Like do you want a macerated mess?
 
This is beyond the scope of TFP, but I am a proud diplomate of the board of podiatric MEDICINE so...

I start with Gabapentin 300 TID. Warn patients about drowsiness but most people can tolerate it. Rx lidoderm patches as well, wear them to bed. One or the other is usually enough.

If 300 TID is too much, scale down dose and/or frequency. If it's ineffective, up it to 600 TID. There are no guidelines for dosing Gabapentin and I've had patients with lumbar fusions being dosed with 1g QID, and they live to tell the tale, so I'm not shy about working my way up.

Need to be cautious with Gabapentin in the 70+ age range, since it has been shown to be an independent risk factor for falls, in addition to polypharmacy. To offset this risk, the TFP in me will rx balance braces (that is a joke, don't do that).

When Gabapentin doesn't work at all, Cymbalta 60 mg daily is another option, and it's on-label. It works quite well, too. However, I don't rx Cymbalta if the pt is taking other psychotropics because serotonin syndrome is a helluva lot scarier than anything you think you could do with Gabapentin.

I've tried qutenza, it did nothing for my pts and the logistics of getting it are obnoxious.

I had a rep approach me about referring pts for spinal cord stimulators. Problem is no sane pain medicine specialist will do it on a pt with hga1c over 8, which rules out 90% of my neuropathy pain pts.

I haven't tried B-vitamin complexes much. Anyone have luck with them?
I've never used gutenza but I have had some success with TENS units. Mostly on people with minimal neuropathy. For the ones who are severe I do gabapentin or Lyrica, and I monitor but am not scared of titrating up
 
125 mg/day. Crush it and mix it in applesauce.

Feed it to Little Johnny...or not.

Idgaf.
I've never been able to get 125s so I've done 250s every 2 days. Have you seen that?

For older teens I just give it to them straight
 
Assuming they bypass the “I don’t treat neuropathy” check when scheduling it’s a recommendation to follow up with their PCP.

Curious wtf the pods who manage neuropathy do when the patient calls you complaining about gabapentin side effects
Titrate the dose lower to an effective dose then stop.

For me it's absolutely abou5 balancing the neuropathy help with the external risks. As an example, if 300 mg bid is barely enough but 300 tid or 600 bid ****s them up, then I titrate them back low and then tell them that they have to manage on lower doses. I've done that and added stuff like lidocaine patches, TENS units. But one thing I always tell my neuropathy patients is that it's a permanent management thing and pain may never be totally gone. I set expectations from beginning. If they are somewhat diabetic controlled I may do referral for spine stimulator; I had a couple of those
 
I have a question: ganglion cysts on office

How do you aspirate well.

I've had a variety of techniques: aspiration with 18 gauge, with or without anesthesia, injecting steroid around it then trying to suck it out. I've even had a few I just poke the pt in the cyst and it just bursts like Kilimanjaro. But sometimes they move or it seems as if the penetration of the sac is not strong enough? What technique tips do you have?
 
Agree with 2 weeks soaking too much.
1 week enough

Derm guy I know did the same with pulse dosing.

The local PCPs looked at me like I was insane when I said LFT + 90 days straight if cleared.
They do 30 days straight max, recheck LFTs monthly.
This was the answer for both new grad and 15+ year doc.

Made me question things but had never had issues doing LFT + 90 day script + back in 3mo during residency.
I've done this and never had issues either. I've done 5 months with no issues
 
I've never been able to get 125s so I've done 250s every 2 days. Have you seen that?

For older teens I just give it to them straight
Mom needs to split the tablet in half using a kitchen knife

Anyway I need to report on some TFP activity. Literally 2 days ago I was griping in the VA thread about how obnoxious it is when podiatrists overcomplicate podiatry to make it sound like we're doing more than we really are. Well apparently now we're up to the 6th generation of MIS bunionectomy techniques. 3rd gen only became truly popular 2 years ago, so there's got to be some limit on how many generations you can come out with per year. This is not different from the many different eponymous tailor's bunion techniques student's hopefully are not still memorizing.
 
Mom needs to split the tablet in half using a kitchen knife

Anyway I need to report on some TFP activity. Literally 2 days ago I was griping in the VA thread about how obnoxious it is when podiatrists overcomplicate podiatry to make it sound like we're doing more than we really are. Well apparently now we're up to the 6th generation of MIS bunionectomy techniques. 3rd gen only became truly popular 2 years ago, so there's got to be some limit on how many generations you can come out with per year. This is not different from the many different eponymous tailor's bunion techniques student's hopefully are not still memorizing.
I’m doing a reverse silver on a very very very mild tailors bunion next week. Very TFP..
 
I’m doing a reverse silver on a very very very mild tailors bunion next week. Very TFP..
I do those frequently for tailors bunions tbh. Often times getting rid of the bump and/or bursa is all they need and they’re happy at least for a while. Mainly old folks.

People act like a patient needs to be 90+ to do a silver but for non active retirees I’ve had good success both 1st Mets and 5th Mets
 
I have a question: ganglion cysts on office

How do you aspirate well.

I've had a variety of techniques: aspiration with 18 gauge, with or without anesthesia, injecting steroid around it then trying to suck it out. I've even had a few I just poke the pt in the cyst and it just bursts like Kilimanjaro. But sometimes they move or it seems as if the penetration of the sac is not strong enough? What technique tips do you have?
I don't. Surgery in OR. That's how I treat symptomatic ganglions.
 
I've never used gutenza but I have had some success with TENS units. Mostly on people with minimal neuropathy. For the ones who are severe I do gabapentin or Lyrica, and I monitor but am not scared of titrating up
I am doing Qutenza on 2 or 3 patients this Friday for first time. Will report back in 6 to 9 months
 
I don't. Surgery in OR. That's how I treat symptomatic ganglions.
Agreed. Recurrence chat blah blah blah in clinic. If they are adamant and I have time I'll let them talk me into it and then gasp when it's back. Thank you kindly for the extra RVUs. In-office ones I'm talked into mostly occurs with mucoid cysts (do these count in this discussion?), very rarely the larger midfoot cysts.
 
I do those frequently for tailors bunions tbh. Often times getting rid of the bump and/or bursa is all they need and they’re happy at least for a while. Mainly old folks.

People act like a patient needs to be 90+ to do a silver but for non active retirees I’ve had good success both 1st Mets and 5th Mets
We did quite a few MIS floaters, even in sensate people, and they did very well. Not that a small open shave and removal of the bursa takes much more time or vastly different from an invasive perspective. Stones are too small to do a lot of the non-fixated met osteotomy stuff. We'll see if they grow with time.
 
Agreed. Recurrence chat blah blah blah in clinic. If they are adamant and I have time I'll let them talk me into it and then gasp when it's back. Thank you kindly for the extra RVUs. In-office ones I'm talked into mostly occurs with mucoid cysts (do these count in this discussion?), very rarely the larger midfoot cysts.
I forgot about those ..arent those the ones that happen on the DIPJs? Still same thing cut them out
 
Agreed. Recurrence chat blah blah blah in clinic. If they are adamant and I have time I'll let them talk me into it and then gasp when it's back. Thank you kindly for the extra RVUs. In-office ones I'm talked into mostly occurs with mucoid cysts (do these count in this discussion?), very rarely the larger midfoot cysts.
Yeah I drained a mucoid cyst in office recently. Felt stupid after. First, I couldn’t really collect any cyst like fluid in my needle. Second, even when done in a sterile environment I feel like it’s risky. could easily seed bacteria into the joint as it’s connected through a channel to the joint fluid.and it’s definitely going to reoccur. From now on I’ll just offer to cut it out if symptomatic
 
Yeah I drained a mucoid cyst in office recently. Felt stupid after. First, I couldn’t really collect any cyst like fluid in my needle. Second, even when done in a sterile environment I feel like it’s risky. could easily seed bacteria into the joint as it’s connected through a channel to the joint fluid.and it’s definitely going to reoccur. From now on I’ll just offer to cut it out if symptomatic
The older you get the less you care about sterile environments....suture something in clinic? Regular gloves and maybe paint some skin with betadine. Going to start doing more amps in clinic. Unless hardware involved, sterility is over rated.
 
The older you get the less you care about sterile environments....suture something in clinic? Regular gloves and maybe paint some skin with betadine. Going to start doing more amps in clinic. Unless hardware involved, sterility is over rated.

Haha especially those OR I&D cases. It will be contaminated by pus no matter how sterile the field is. I always rolled my eyes as a resident when the OR tech was trying to ensure the "sterility" of the field during these pus cases.
 
Haha especially those OR I&D cases. It will be contaminated by pus no matter how sterile the field is. I always rolled my eyes as a resident when the OR tech was trying to ensure the "sterility" of the field during these pus cases.
“It’s…it’s already infected”
 
The older you get the less you care about sterile environments....suture something in clinic? Regular gloves and maybe paint some skin with betadine. Going to start doing more amps in clinic. Unless hardware involved, sterility is over rated.
Might have to do that for a patient of mine.
Getting it done at a hospital as a new doc outpatient has been insanely difficult.

No one has any answers or knows wtf to do even with me marching in there in person begging them to just email or give me their surgery order forms so I can get my own patient scheduled.

Really frustrating to tell the patient hey we need to reschedule it again just keep waiting.
 
This is the most useful post on this entire forum in a while. Stuff we actually deal with on the daily.

What are ya'll doing for tendonitis, I put patient's in a boot initially but adherence is questionable. I see a lot of peroneal tendonitis when the weathers good in my patient population, maybe because they built like 30 pickleball courts a few blocks down.

I know people still inject them, I don't like the idea of that but is anyone doing that?

Do ya'll prefer Meloxicam vs Celecoxib
 
This is the most useful post on this entire forum in a while. Stuff we actually deal with on the daily.

What are ya'll doing for tendonitis, I put patient's in a boot initially but adherence is questionable. I see a lot of peroneal tendonitis when the weathers good in my patient population, maybe because they built like 30 pickleball courts a few blocks down.

I know people still inject them, I don't like the idea of that but is anyone doing that?

Do ya'll prefer Meloxicam vs Celecoxib
What tendon? Short course of steroids cures every tendonitis usually. It’s magic
 
This is the most useful post on this entire forum in a while. Stuff we actually deal with on the daily.

What are ya'll doing for tendonitis, I put patient's in a boot initially but adherence is questionable. I see a lot of peroneal tendonitis when the weathers good in my patient population, maybe because they built like 30 pickleball courts a few blocks down.

I know people still inject them, I don't like the idea of that but is anyone doing that?

Do ya'll prefer Meloxicam vs Celecoxib
PT
 
This is the most useful post on this entire forum in a while. Stuff we actually deal with on the daily.

What are ya'll doing for tendonitis, I put patient's in a boot initially but adherence is questionable. I see a lot of peroneal tendonitis when the weathers good in my patient population, maybe because they built like 30 pickleball courts a few blocks down.

I know people still inject them, I don't like the idea of that but is anyone doing that?

Do ya'll prefer Meloxicam vs Celecoxib
Physical Therapy, maybe inserts if there's a structural foot problem. I've used and recommended Valsole inserts off Amazon for around 35 usd. They actually have prominent arches AND a decent heel lift as opposed to the standard flat crap ones. Steroids, whether it be dosepak or shots
 
The ultimate TFP question: for those of you who grind nails, what machinery do you use? Podospray? Nail drill? Dremel? Practice I used to work for just used a Dremel (no vacuum), it was rough
:barf:
 
This is the most useful post on this entire forum in a while. Stuff we actually deal with on the daily.

What are ya'll doing for tendonitis, I put patient's in a boot initially but adherence is questionable. I see a lot of peroneal tendonitis when the weathers good in my patient population, maybe because they built like 30 pickleball courts a few blocks down.

I know people still inject them, I don't like the idea of that but is anyone doing that?

Do ya'll prefer Meloxicam vs Celecoxib

Steroid injection. Home exercises vs formal PT. Depending on etiology (acute injury/overuse vs biomechanic foot issue) sometimes powersteps or other pre-fab insert recommendation for the medium to long term.
 
The ultimate TFP question: for those of you who grind nails, what machinery do you use? Podospray? Nail drill? Dremel? Practice I used to work for just used a Dremel (no vacuum), it was rough
Nippers and a manual file. Dremels with or without a vacuum are degen. Makes a mess, not worth the risk of inhalation, and time consuming.

The vacuum never really works.
 

Grind nails down to nubs, push out followups as long as possible. Wear a N95 mask if you're scared of dust.
 
Since we're in TFP thread, you guys see Dr. Roth (yes, that paincur guy) rant in PM latest issue about patient with plantar fasciitis getting billed for an office visit and how that's "toxic billing" compared to his cash pay injection gig. Insert pot and kettle saying.
 
Since we're in TFP thread, you guys see Dr. Roth (yes, that paincur guy) rant in PM latest issue about patient with plantar fasciitis getting billed for an office visit and how that's "toxic billing" compared to his cash pay injection gig. Insert pot and kettle saying.
Haven't seen that one but did read through his last court case.
Pretty egregious.
 
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