Official Tufts Post Bacc Pre Med - 2010-2011..bonus dicussion of Bryn Mawr/UPenn

robflanker

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I personally think you made a mistake picking Tufts over BM for education reasons.

If you don't like Philly then thats fine for making a post-bac choice, but to pick Tufts > BM is ridic.

And yes UPenn is disorganized but again i think its better than Tufts, but I admit bias here.

Overall I think your decision was a poor one if it was based on educational reasons. If it was based on personal factors than no-one can fault you for that.
 

robflanker

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Admitting bias is not necessary. You have made nearly 1,000 posts, most of them in UPenn related threads.
I felt it was necessary as not everyone is going to click my username and search through where all my previous posts were....

About UPenn, it really seems to barely meet the threshold of a structured program, and to offer little to no specific attention or support. I am amazed at their lack of professionalism, which extended to not even being able to give me a clear answer on when I would potentially start classes with them (ultimately it would have been the Fall, after I was promised in person that it was going to be in the Summer)
lol barely meet structured program? What do you want them to do for you? You have the pre-reqs you take them, what else is there really? Its a well known fact advising here sucks, no-one hides or denies that. No clear answer when you would start would depend on when you were accepted and summer filled up very early this year so it would be appear there was a clear answer after all.

When you subtract the linkages, any potential advantage of BM over Tufts disappears.

Do you honestly believe that a given applicant with an identical GPA and MCAT and prior experience, would experience a statistically distinct admission result for Medical School based on having gone to BM or Tufts?
Yes, I do believe that BM offers a distinct advantage over Tufts. The Tufts Pre-Med program isnt really well known, and isnt well documented whereas the BM one is. The Tufts MBS has some interesting data but you aren't in that. You are playing off the Tufts name which in the post-bac world doesnt mean a lot whereas BM/Goucher/Scripps does.
I am not saying you won't get into med school from Tufts but I still think BM would have given you more bang for your buck
 

robflanker

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I am sorry, but with the possible exception of linkages, I don't agree with you.
Linkages aside - Penn claims 95% of their pre-health (no prereqs) get into medical school. I dont know if this number includes linkages and i am sure it is inflated but its still a pretty solid number even if you water it down some

Also, "playing off the Tufts name" is rather silly to say, as UPenn accepts most /all people who apply, and much like Harvard Extension School, people appear to attend because they want that name.
The diff is that UPenn's post bac program and HES and BM have clear records demonstrating success in placing ppl into med school. Tufts pre-med doesnt really have the support (in terms of med school placement) seen by other programs. I didnt come to Penn for the name, I came to Penn for the opportunities to work in HUP/CHOP take classes and for a program which has a decent record in med school placement.

I also get the distinct feeling that for Columbia, UPenn, and Harvard Extension School, these health programs are money making ventures and they accept plenty of people they know will not be likely admits to medical school.
There is a lot of neg press written about columbia but it works out for some but this isnt the place to discuss that program. Again Penn and HES have solid records in placement, Tufts does not. Penn does not accept everyone and anyone. Im sure there are drop outs and ppl that dont make but every program has that but its not a money sucking venture.
Your facts are so wrong its ridic. HES is so ridic cheap thats its awesome value for whomever wants to go there and UPenn is on the low side as postbac programs go ($22k approx for full-time)

Look - you made your decision. Good for you. But stop trying to justify your decision by making up crappy reasons (which lack factual basis) about why you didnt go to Penn or BM or HES. Tufts is behind HES in Boston post-bac programs IMO.
 

drizzt3117

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I think you should do whatever you want to, but going to Tufts over BM isn't doing yourself any favors. BM does have substantially better results when matching in the open pool than run of the mill postbac programs (of which Tufts certainly qualifies). When I read an application, postbacs from BM, JHU, Goucher, and Scripps tend to stand our because I know the program has already done a lot of screening for me.

There are valid reasons to go to Tufts over HES, it's a lot more structured program and you might be able to finish faster, but HES is certainly less expensive and people have gotten good results from it.

Generally my attitude is that you should go where you're going to be happy bc you're more likely to succeed there but arguing that there's no difference between those BM and Tufts is pretty absurd. Going to Tufts over Penn is fine, I actually think the programs are pretty comparable resultswise, but HES is a nice option in Boston that is less expensive than Tufts although it may take longer without quite as much structure.
 
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I didnt come to Penn for the name, I came to Penn for the opportunities to work in HUP/CHOP take classes and for a program which has a decent record in med school placement.
:thumbup: agreed. Plus I'm relatively familiar and comfortable with the area... It's really a personal preference. I don't need tons of advising. My ugrad advisor was awful, but u find mentors and peers and things work out. The ability to work at HUP/CHOP is what sold me.. And Penns program has a good reputation in the area - example: I inquired about a volunteer position a month ago after accepting the Penn offer. Told the person I would be starting at Penn, etc. Response in less than 24 hrs; a colleague at my ugrad sent essentially the same inquiry and recieved no response. So name probably does matter.

At least u made a decision. I can't say I agree with the BM comments though.. BM is the oldest post bac program around, known and respected by all. It's easily top three w Goucher and Scripps.
 

jslo85

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Some people seem to misunderstand what I have been saying.

BM does not make a student a better candidate. (subjective either way. Based around the definition of better)

Better candidates tend to go to BM. (Most likely with good reason)

A strong candidate, with say 35+ on the MCAT, 3.7 or higher undergraduate and graduate school GPAs from elite universities, and good interviewing skills, will not see any difference in acceptances based on applying from Bryn Mawr or Tufts, assuming a 3.7+ at either.

I found absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is not the case, and I considered it thoroughly.

I could imagine that a hypothetical student with different qualifications might benefit from getting a possible closer first look from an admissions committee. (Glad you like playing with hypothetical situations this much)

And as I prefer to be in Boston instead of Philadelphia, that was the deciding factor. (bottom line guys)
Guys this is a pointless argument.

The OP created this post and falsely named the title of the thread as a primary Tufts thread with a "discussion" of other programs which is more like "hi guys, i like Boston and I am set on Tufts but I considered penn and thought it sucked and.. oh yeah, BM was .. cool .. i guess".

He already stated several times that the main deciding factor was he wanted to be in Boston. This was not a"please give input and change my mind" thread because the only question he asked was anyone else going to go to Tufts as well. If this is his decision let him make it.

That said, for the sake of posting since I'm already writing this. How can you say with the possible exception of linkages? That is one of the if not the biggest reason for attending these top programs. Tufts has 3 for medicine according to its website, BM has 14 and it has about 38 years of success to build them and cultivate more. Since you have done all your research you probably have considered the reason why other schools know of your program and that is based off of the success of previous applicants before you who had gone through the same program. The reason why a school has such a good reputation and regarded elsewhere is because of the unanimous success its students have achieved in their endeavors post-completion. For an analogous example, why would you attend a school like KCOM over AZCOM? The reputation of the oldest and most establisehd osteopathic school in the world allows you to stay in one place for the entire 3rd and 4th year as opposed to living out of your suitcase every few months in jumping from each clinical rotation site living out of your suitcase as a MS. BM graduates sit on some Adcoms and are so widely spread that may of the key deciding members who will be reviewing your application probably does know someone who went through the program and had a great impression of him/her. As Tufts is newer (assumption, cannot find the date), I cannot say the same.

"The "typical student" is between 23-40, had at least a "B+" undergraduate average, scored at or above the 80th percentile in standardized tests (and at or above mid-600's in each of the SAT sections) and has demonstrated, through volunteer or employment experience, a strong motivation for a career in health care."

^ is probably one of the reasons why Tufts as a whole is probably considered to have lesser candidates than BM.

The other stat I'll site is actually Tufts acceptance rate is posted on their site.

TUFTS
"Over 90% of Tufts Postbac students who apply are accepted into health professions schools each year. The majority of our students enter medical school."

BRYN MAWR
"
After completing our program, virtually all students who apply—over 98 percent—are accepted to medical school."

Take what you will out of these quoted comments from their respective websites. Not going to use them to prove a point, just to correct one that was not clarified in this thread.

You are right (imho) that if what you are trying to say is BM does not 100% produce the better candidate all the time. But as is the case with GTown SMP as opposed to other programs, you're paying for the reputation of the program and that will carry you further than your stats will.
 

drizzt3117

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there's a bit of self-selection involved, sure, that said, from my perspective, coming from someone who actually evaluates candidates for admission at a top 25 program, there's a clear difference between the programs in my opinion. That doesn't mean you shouldn't go to Tufts, there's a lot to be said about going somewhere you'll be happy, but to suggest otherwise is disengeneous when there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. Other adcom ppl may feel differently but keep in mind BM is a much older program with far more alumni and far more adcoms have heard of the program.

Your argument is the same as suggesting there's no difference between an undergrad degree from BU and Harvard when it comes to med school admissions, because the difference between BM and Tufts for postbac is at least that big.


Some people seem to misunderstand what I have been saying.

BM does not make a student a better candidate.

Better candidates tend to go to BM.

A strong candidate, with say 35+ on the MCAT, 3.7 or higher undergraduate and graduate school GPAs from elite universities, and good interviewing skills, will not see any difference in acceptances based on applying from Bryn Mawr or Tufts, assuming a 3.7+ at either.

I found absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is not the case, and I considered it thoroughly.

I could imagine that a hypothetical student with different qualifications might benefit from getting a possible closer first look from an admissions committee.

And as I prefer to be in Boston instead of Philadelphia, that was the deciding factor.
 

drizzt3117

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One thing you'll soon find out when applying to med school is that you aren't special. Everyone goes to top schools and has great grades and high MCAT. While interviewing at top programs, sometimes 80- 90% of the students were from HYP or JHU with an occasional person from Stanford, Northwestern, Cal, UC, etc. Schools like Wash U and UM have matriculant averages of 3.9/38, meaning that the average MCAT score is the the 98th percentile. Most if not all these top tier applicants will get multiple rejections. I had by all accounts an amazing app cycle and still got more than 25% rejections. Applying to med school isn't easy no matter how qualified you are. That being the case, I don't know why you'd want to compromise your chances by doing your pb at a run of the mill institution. There are few things more humbling then applying to med school.

As far as linkages to top programs, Penn and Chicago are both top 10, Pittsburgh is just out of the top 10, I don't know what else you want. The best med achools can take their pick from the entire applicant pool, and do. BM has the best linkages of any program out there. That said, a lot of their class chooses to apply open pool, and do very well. I have a classmate went to Harvard and did the BM postbac.
 

NewmansOwn

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While this is not germane to my original question of who else is coming to Tufts (feel free to PM me if you are), regarding Bryn Mawr, and its linkages, one thing I noticed when I was considering that process, is that many of the schools that you can link to, are, without getting too specific, somewhat average. Yes, there are a few big names there. And yes, it is an accomplishment to get into any accredited US medical school. However, they are by and large, not top schools.
Do you find it ironic that you're labeling BM's linkage schools as 'average' after writing several diatribes defending why you chose the postbac program with the lesser reputation?

If you understand the the postbac program does not make the medical school applicant (and you are correct), then surely you understand that the medical school (within the US allopathic circle) does not make the residency applicant.

A student with a Step 1 of 256 and junior AOA membership at a lower-tier US MD school will be picked over an applicant of less stellar scores from Harvard or UCSF every time.
 

drizzt3117

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A student with a Step 1 of 256 and junior AOA membership at a lower-tier US MD school will be picked over an applicant of less stellar scores from Harvard or UCSF every time.
Unfortunately in a lot of fields, that's not true, but it doesn't matter because they'll still match well most likely. There's been a lot of recent threads about school reputation and its effect with some pretty good anecdotal evidence (esp the Harvard vs UCSD thread, where a SDN mod was talking about getting denied interviews with 258/AOA in anesthesia) but in any case I'd focus on things under your control in any case.
 

drizzt3117

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Personally, I think BU/Tufts are good but really overpriced in terms of tuition. That said, they're not a bad option if you want to stay in Boston. Top tier schools are always going to be really random no matter how strong your application is. There are numerous 4.0/40+ people that don't even get interviews at the top Ivies. As far as residency matching, HMS will have a clear advantage over every other school with the possible exception of JHU. The other three Ivies (especially Yale) do well also, but aren't quite in the same league as Harvard. This will make a difference in what type of programs you're competitive for, and how hard you'll have to work to make yourself a viable candidate for them. If you do well on step, have a good grades, and good research and LORs, and impress people in away rotations, you can be an attractive candidate for any residency program coming out of any school, but it will be easier coming out of more well-known program, especially if they are really good in that particular specialty. This difference is pretty difficult to quantify, and is really specialty dependent as well. I guess it just comes down to how much keeping your options open matters to you, and how competitive you think you'll be for the top schools. The difference between Dartmouth, Tufts, Brown, and BU isn't substantial. Keep in mind that Brown doesn't take very many people that aren't in the BS/MD and Dartmouth has a class of only 70.