Official: TY and Prelim Thoughts

[Sheldor]

TYs or "those whose name must not be spoken" and prelim programs "The ones EVERYONE is going to do are two topics not frequently discussed. I really struggled when I was applying to tease out where to apply to, how many to apply to, how many to interview at, etc. etc. etc.

So, without further ado, here are some thoughts for the M4's about to apply:

1) You are going to apply to at 10-20 TYs and 10-20 Prelim programs. Just plan on it, budget for it, its important. I'll explain why in a second.

2) Why 10-20? Well, simple. 10 is the minimum of each type because it costs the same to apply to 1 program as it does 10. It always baffled me when someone applied to 8. Why not get a couple free applications just in case? Anyway, 10 minimum.

3) TY's and Prelim count as different "specialties" and thus the reason each starts at the beginning of the sliding scale (Too much medicine so far this year, sorry.)

On TY's:

4) TY's are by far the best option for burgeoning rad oncs.(Edit: As I said below, this was thoughtless wording, see my response to ramses for clarification) Don't let anyone tell you that you don't learn enough in a TY program. While there are a few bad apples, there are plenty of those in the prelim world as well. People associate TY's with a better lifestyle, and to that I say two things. Not necessarily, and who cares? Rad onc is associated with a better lifestyle as well and that didn't stop any of us. In my experience TY's learn a TON of information, but generally do so in a happier environment with less scut work thus allowing more time for reading up on patients, and the like.

5) So why are they the best for future rad oncs? Simple, variety. Ask any Rad Onc you interview with on the trail about the value of intern year and they all say the same thing, "Man, I don't remember anything from that year." Some still think its worth it for the "learn to be a doctor" thing, but thats a topic for a different thread. So what good does 11 months of inpatient medicine do you? None! Sure you may be better at managing pneumonia than someone who did 3-6 months, but how does that help us?

By the end of my TY year I'll have done Medicine, icu, oncology, pathology (looking at cancer slides and attending conferences for a month), rad onc, etc. I learned so many more things that will be meaningful to my career during my path month than I did during my medicine month.

6) I've never met someone who did a TY that said they wished they had done a prelim year

On Prelims:

1) While easy to match into, you need to apply to at least 10 because they are surprisingly hit or miss. Mainly because many of the bigger name academic places reserve a certain number of seats for their own students, or those who are interviewing for their advanced positions.

2) Prelim years are tough, tough tough. Yes there are some that are more like TY's, and those are probably good, but by and large you will work very hard. I had friends who were pumped about the "working hard" aspect of these, and more than one have texted me the following: "Man, I should have done a TY."

How many interviews to go on is tricky, and definitely up for debate. To remove all doubt, I'd recommend 7 TY's and 3 prelims. I feel like thats a fairly safe list. I certainly know people who did less and matched, but I like to be careful, and I think this is a nice conservative goal.

Finally, while I didn't get the TY hostility that I thought I would, (In fact most people were quire supportive of TYs) there are some hold overs from the previous generation who want to hear you wanting to kill yourself in a prelim. Say what you need to say. I focused on truths like, "I really want to learn how to take great care of patients next year." That way I skirted the line

Over the next few days I'll post my thoughts on some of the best TY and Prelim programs in the country, and if more than I contribute we could probably get a pretty comprehensive list going. M4's, you'll notice a big theme in my next few posts will be geography, so if there is a region you are interested in be sure to ask, and we can chime in with thoughts.

Good luck everyone, in two more weeks, the real fun starts!

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[echod]

Great thread! Can you talk about your strategies for picking what prelim/transitional year programs to apply to? For me, I am simply applying to all the transitional yr/prelim programs w/in driveable distance. I cannot fathom spending airfare to prelim/transitional programs.

I do have another question, do you think I should apply to transitional yr/prelim programs at the same institution as the Rad Onc program in hopes that they would interview me on the same day? This way I could save money on plane tickets.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Sheldor, I generally agree with you. You made some good points. However, I cant really sit by on this one without a few thoughts.

1) intern year is not about rad onc. Its about improving the fundamentals of patient care and interaction. Its about learning how to do medicine or surgery in pretty good detail. People may not remember much from internship but thats because a lot of what you learn is a process, not just facts. I think 99% of the arguments about why prelim or TY is better are pure horse sh#t that make people feel better about their decision. If you work hard, you can have a good experience and good training with either.

2) Intern year is not an obstical and it is very important. What separates you from a really experienced dosimetrist or physicist? They can put beams on, make fields, know what needs to be covered. They can read path reports and radiology reports just like you can. Its not the biology of cancer either. I could teach an autistic chimpanzee the biology of cancer and staging. Its patient care. Knowing how to put the entire patient together, knowing when and what to treat, how to do a good exam, and how to make good decisions. That training is what you get that makes you a better rad onc, not some BS elective you do along the way. Those better prepare you for about the first 5 days of residency.

Bottom line, just do what you want. There is nothing wrong with wanting a few electives to have more time with your friends and family and it shouldn't compromise you trainnig. If that is what you want then do a TY. If location is important to you then consider a prelim. I did a prelim and yeah it was pretty tough but I had fun a lot of the time and I feel like I am good damn doctor too.

 

[Sheldor]

Sheldor, I generally agree with you. You made some good points. However, I cant really sit by on this one without a few thoughts.

1) intern year is not about rad onc. Its about improving the fundamentals of patient care and interaction. Its about learning how to do medicine or surgery in pretty good detail. People may not remember much from internship but thats because a lot of what you learn is a process, not just facts. I think 99% of the arguments about why prelim or TY is better are pure horse sh#t that make people feel better about their decision. If you work hard, you can have a good experience and good training with either.

2) Intern year is not an obstical and it is very important. What separates you from a really experienced dosimetrist or physicist? They can put beams on, make fields, know what needs to be covered. They can read path reports and radiology reports just like you can. Its not the biology of cancer either. I could teach an autistic chimpanzee the biology of cancer and staging. Its patient care. Knowing how to put the entire patient together, knowing when and what to treat, how to do a good exam, and how to make good decisions. That training is what you get that makes you a better rad onc, not some BS elective you do along the way. Those better prepare you for about the first 5 days of residency.

Bottom line, just do what you want. There is nothing wrong with wanting a few electives to have more time with your friends and family and it shouldn't compromise you trainnig. If that is what you want then do a TY. If location is important to you then consider a prelim. I did a prelim and yeah it was pretty tough but I had fun a lot of the time and I feel like I am good damn doctor too.

Okay, I guess one can argue over my use of the word "better," and for that I apologize. Rather than editing my OP, I'll just expand here and say that I agree with you. I don't think I will be a better rad onc for having done a TY, vs a prelim. What I did a bad job of communicating was that I feel like the stigma is that you will be a worse doctor/rad onc if you do a TY. My feeling is that, that is profoundly untrue. While a TY will have less inpatient experience, i will still have 11 months of direct patient care experience, and the time I'm not caring for patients I'm learning about the flow in departments that relate to rad onc, like pathology.

My goal wasn't too offend those who do prelims, clearly the clinical training (at the non-malignant programs) is great, but I just want folks to know there is more than one way to get a good clinical base your first year. Sorry about the poor communication!

 

[ramsesthenice]

Sheldor, nothing but love man. We are free to disagree here. I don't think we disagree that much anyway but it's cool if we do.

 

[laserbeams]

In regards to TYs, are they more selective based on usmle? I have ~220 step 1 and am wondering if TYs would even look at me or if I should only apply to prelims. What else do they really have to go on besides usmle?

Transitional Year programs used to be listed within Charting Outcomes. The 2009 edition is getting a bit stale but you can get a sense of what stats looked like then: http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

For US Seniors:
Average matched: 2.4 contiguous ranks, Step 1 of 236, Step 2 of 239, 3.1 average research experiences, 4.3 abstracts/presentations/publications, 24% AOA.
Average unmatched: 1.9 contiguous ranks, Step 1 of 228, Step 2 of 226, 2.7 research experiences, 4.1 abstracts/presentations/publications.

Might as well apply. The worst thing that could happen is that you end up doing a prelim year and you're out $92.

 

[Sheldor]

Hey all, sorry I haven't posted a more detailed breakdown of some programs yet. Im transition from nights to days and all messed up. I'll get to it in the next day or two!

 

[Neuronix]

Its about learning how to do medicine or surgery in pretty good detail. People may not remember much from internship but thats because a lot of what you learn is a process, not just facts.

At my medical school the surgical interns never saw the inside of an OR. They were paperwork specialists. The process you learn is how to complete paperwork and draw blood. That wouldn't have made me a better rad onc. The medicine interns where I went to med school never went to lecture, and rounds were basically non-existent because they were too busy doing paperwork, admitting and discharging patients, while the residents did all the thinking for them and went to lecture. Where is the education in that? Maybe your medicine year was better than that. However, what I saw was night and day between the multiple hours a day of education I received as a transitional year, and the actual dissuasion from learning I had during my medicine sub-I.

2) Intern year is not an obstical and it is very important. What separates you from a really experienced dosimetrist or physicist? They can put beams on, make fields, know what needs to be covered. They can read path reports and radiology reports just like you can. Its not the biology of cancer either. I could teach an autistic chimpanzee the biology of cancer and staging.

I'm not sure who you are arguing with when you call intern year an obstacle. Nobody in this thread has said that. I think you are seriously cheapening the value of our residency with this paragraph. I also think you are overestimating the dosimetrists and physicists. They don't know what needs to be covered. They don't know how to interpret pathology and radiology reports. I couldn't teach a chimpanzee the biology of cancer, and I don't think you could either.

Its patient care. Knowing how to put the entire patient together, knowing when and what to treat, how to do a good exam, and how to make good decisions. That training is what you get that makes you a better rad onc, not some BS elective you do along the way. Those better prepare you for about the first 5 days of residency.

My electives were in outpatient specialties, radiology, pathology, and rad onc research. My TY had a lot of outpatient medicine required. That better prepares you to be an outpatient specialist than does a full year of entirely inpatient medicine, which is what most medicine years are. Just because something is hard or has higher work hours doesn't mean that it's better training for your future.

Bottom line, just do what you want. There is nothing wrong with wanting a few electives to have more time with your friends and family and it shouldn't compromise you trainnig.

I agree with do what you want. But, I disagree with your statement about electives. I took my electives seriously, and learned plenty. Flexibility does not equal laziness.

I did a prelim and yeah it was pretty tough but I had fun a lot of the time and I feel like I am good damn doctor too.

I also feel like a good damn doctor. But of course in 5 years, neither of us are going to remember much of it. So in the long run I don't think it matters one bit.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Neuronix, apparently that really hit a nerve and I'm not sure why. End of the day we agree it doesnt really matter. Experiences differ at places but I have to say where I trained med prelim was not pushing papers at all. Had lecture and rad rounds every day and made it every day. I personally think that's just as good as elective time but my whole point was both would prepare you just fine. At no point did I ever indicate that flexible or elective equated to laziness. Quite the contrary actually as you quoted me saying.

As far as intern year being an obstical no one said it in this thread but it's come up in many previous threads. It's hard, stupid, etc. just keep your head down and you will get through it. You won't remember anything anyway. I think that attitude can make for a missed opportunity.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Furthermore I never said prelim was better. I'll say it openly, I did prelim because there was no TY locally and my lady busted her ass to get a great job and there was no way I would ask her to move. I totally would have considered it if they were here. What I said was I don't think there is any convincing argument for one over the other.

And seriously, rebut the chimpanzee joke? Of course I can't teach a chimp biology. I'm a big kid, can't resist a good chimp joke when the opportunity arises

 

[Mr RADical]

Experiences differ at places but I have to say where I trained med prelim was not pushing papers at all. Had lecture and rad rounds every day and made it every day. I

This was similarly my experience at my prelim program. I worked hard when on inpatient rotations, had flexibility for electives and outpatient months, and received a good amount of teaching/conference. I really enjoyed my prelim year. I think the specific program matters much more than a prelim vs transitional year.

 

[Neuronix]

Neuronix, apparently that really hit a nerve and I'm not sure why.

You didn't hit a nerve with me, but I disagreed strongly with much of what you wrote.

At no point did I ever indicate that flexible or elective equated to laziness. Quite the contrary actually as you quoted me saying.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a few electives to have more time with your friends and family and it shouldn't compromise you trainnig.

You're implying that electives = more free time. I don't think that's necessarily the case.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Could be a differnece of location like everything. Most ward services are 6 days a week and I never saw or heard of an elective that was 6 days a week. Im sure you bust butt on those electives just like we did on ours. Having two days off, especially weekend days off when your spouse and family are off, is huge. Thats a real plus for TYs which tend to have more electives.

 

[ReOxygenation]

Some TYs are essentially Prelim years and some Prelim years have a lot of transition like features. Look at the programs and find out as much as you can about them when applying. Painting with a broad brush could cause people to cast off an attractive prelim or TY depending on preferences and pain tolerances.

For example: I am doing a "prelim" year and only have 2 wards months, 1 ICU month (no, that is not a misprint).

 

[Neuronix]

Some TYs are essentially Prelim years and some Prelim years have a lot of transition like features. Look at the programs and find out as much as you can about them when applying. Painting with a broad brush could cause people to cast off an attractive prelim or TY depending on preferences and pain tolerances.

For example: I am doing a "prelim" year and only have 2 wards months, 1 ICU month (no, that is not a misprint).

... Really? When I applied I had heard rumors of more reasonable IM years, but found almost no names mentioned on SDN. I interviewed at one I thought seemed decent (Lankenau Hospital), but I found few to apply to and then found the ones I went to had very limited elective time. Perhaps I am painting with too broad a brush. But I could identify a few dozen transitional years that seemed good to me with regards to electives, education, and hours, but I couldn't find very many preliminary medicine programs.

One place where I did a medicine rotation as a medical student had a reputation as being a relatively "cush" medicine year, and they proudly said that on interview day only to match very strong interns to a very malignant year. It made me a little nauseous. And once the interns matched there they had to run around saying "oh we're busy but it's such a *good* year", and if you met them a year or two later they would finally admit how terrible it was. But, once you match you really have no choice and all that brutality didn't help them at all in their careers. But a little cognitive dissonance (convincing themselves it was a good year) was the only way they could get through and on to their specialty training.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Some TYs are essentially Prelim years and some Prelim years have a lot of transition like features. Look at the programs and find out as much as you can about them when applying. Painting with a broad brush could cause people to cast off an attractive prelim or TY depending on preferences and pain tolerances.

For example: I am doing a "prelim" year and only have 2 wards months, 1 ICU month (no, that is not a misprint).

True and true. But even within programs there can be year to year variability. I have some good friends who did IM years before and after me at our program and it was actually on the cushier side for IM programs (3 elective months, one outpatient month, one ER month so only 7 ward months). Then came my year. We had chiefs that protected the catagoricals schedules like a mother grizzly. Myself and a radiology prelim ended up doing 11 freeking ward months. There was always some BS reason a prelim was needed to cover a ward month for someone that had a family emergency or some other conflict. It was brutal. I learned a crap ton, can't deny that. Was it worth it...not really. Did it make me a better rad onc than someone that did 5-6 ward months and extra outpatient or electives...absolutely not.

Agree. Look at everything and decide what works for you.

 

[jcradonc]

Hey Sheldor, any time to write about TYs yet? thanks

 

[deleted4401]

Interesting.

I look back fondly at prelim IM year and I think I loved it. But, I might have been miserable for a few months of it, but memory seems to paint a fresh, vibrant coat on past experiences.

Knowing what I know now, and having worked for a few years, for me, I wish I tried to get an internal medicine prelim at a high end center like Brigham and Women's or UCSF. I would have loved to have been in the thick of it for a year. In the modern era, no more overnight call, so I'd pick an academic center and learn meat and potatoes. Caveat - for personal interest only, because I'm sort of into medicine. I don't think it would make you a better rad onc. I think 3 months on the wards, 3 months elective, and 6 months as a waiter (to learn how to grit your teeth when being told what to do by someone dumber than you).

It's all the same. Pick a city you like and a hospital you like and enjoy. You'll make good friends that year and have a blast.

 

[Sheldor]

Hey Sheldor, any time to write about TYs yet? thanks

I should have some time later today in fact! Any particular geographic area or program(s) that you'd like me to start with?

 

[cancerchamp]

I should have some time later today in fact! Any particular geographic area or program(s) that you'd like me to start with?

any info on boston/chicago/sf programs? ty and prelim. Thanks!!

 

[windcolour]

I should have some time later today in fact! Any particular geographic area or program(s) that you'd like me to start with?

That should be great.

How many TY and Prelim programs should I apply if I am just an average applicant?

And what is the strategy to choose programs? To all programs close to home state or home school? or to all places I apply for rad onc?

many thanks.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Had two instances at work this week to share.

1) one of our intpatients went asystolic when I went to see them and I had to manage a code until the cards fellow showed up (which thankfully was not too long).

2) A student lost the front tire on their bike going down the hill in front of our parking lot and had a bad crash with several skull fractures, facial damage, and several other broken extremeties. It happened right in front of us and we were the first doctors there and had to keep him still, stabalized, and get a good assessment until the rapid response team could get there.

TY or prelim, take it seriously, you will be called to do more than rad onc

 

[Mr RADical]

That should be great.

How many TY and Prelim programs should I apply if I am just an average applicant?

And what is the strategy to choose programs? To all programs close to home state or home school? or to all places I apply for rad onc?

many thanks.

1. Apply to all the programs TY and Prelim that would require you don't need to move for one year (home program + programs in your city).

2. Apply to at least one Prelim and Multiple TY programs in cities or areas that you want to do your residency in or think you have a good shot of getting a residency in.

3. Use all your free Prelim spots for programs that are either in an area that is a high probability you would end up in or offers something special (well respected big name).

4. Ask your friends for specific TY years that fit your lifestyle and apply to those.

In the end its better to over-apply for prelim / TY years. If you get that surprise Rad/Onc interview it's a lot easier to try and call up a program that already has your application and get an interview. Moving twice is expensive and no fun. Sometimes its a lot better to bite the bullet and do a local prelim or TY year (either where you are now, or where you will be) than get the perfect TY or prelim that isn't near either.

 

[ramsesthenice]

That should be great.

How many TY and Prelim programs should I apply if I am just an average applicant?

And what is the strategy to choose programs? To all programs close to home state or home school? or to all places I apply for rad onc?

many thanks.

Agree, do what fits you. If you are worried and want to apply broad for all options just do it. It sucks to drop that much money but in the grand scheme you should be fine financially.

The way ranking works is you get to rank a separate intern rank list with each of your catagorical (rad onc) rankings. You match into rad onc first and THEN they look at the rank list for prelim year that you attatched to the rad onc program you matched at. If you won't want to move more than once your best bet is to apply to or near your home program and then also interview near the places you interviewed for rad onc.

Dont over think this. Most prelim and TY programs will get you ready just fine. The match is very stressful. Its WAY more important you match at a good fit for Rad Onc than your intern year. Think of getting the intern year you want as icing on the cake and go for it.

 

[windcolour]

Many thanks to ramsesthenice and RADical!!!

That is excellent information. Very helpful.

 

[Sheldor]

West/mountain

So, I'll do my best to help, but the unfortunate truth is that the more desirable areas tend to have the less desirable TYs. Meaning, the more the location draws you in the less hard the program has to work

The programs that I specifically heard good things about in those regions:
Virginia Mason in Seattle (Benefit that there is a Prelim there too so you can apply to both and potentially get a 2 for 1 deal)
Sacred heart in Spokane - had to cancel my interview due to a rad onc conflict, but heard nothing but good things
Scripps in San Diego - used to be more "cush" but as I understand it now not so much, but still highly sought after, and the best in so cal for sure
Theres a prelim in north LA, Pasadena maybe that gets rave reviews. I can't remember the name, but i know its tough because they only have a few openings.
The Harbor/UCLA TY is just okay, but they don't require an interview so hey, might as well right?
Intermountain in Utah - Great program!

any info on boston/chicago/sf programs? ty and prelim. Thanks!!

So from the TY front: There are a couple good TY's near Chicago, one in particular everyone raves about but I am totally blanking on the name (Found it, its Resurrection). It breaks the mold of good location = bad TY. Boston doesn't have any good TY's (I"m told), but has some of the more prestigious prelims around. I believe that if you want a harvard prelim but with slightly better hours aim for the brigham and women's as opposed to mass general.

Prelims - I'll comment below!

That should be great.

How many TY and Prelim programs should I apply if I am just an average applicant?

And what is the strategy to choose programs? To all programs close to home state or home school? or to all places I apply for rad onc?

many thanks.

If you are average, I'd apply to 20 TY's and 20 prelims. Mainly because of the randomness that makes it difficult to know who will interview you. Also, since it is only $9 a program through 20, so that $400 buys you piece of mind.

I definitely agree with the above posters about applying to programs near you, very little cost in beefing up the rank list. Unfortunately, there were no TY or Prelim programs near me, so I had to apply fairly broadly. Here's the strategy I chose:

Ty strategy: First I exhaustively researched which programs were the best for education. Then I looked at their location. Then I looked at their benefits/pay. Its shocking how much pay varied from location to location. High fifties with full benefits to high forties with $200 a month benefits. Meaning a 14k different just in compensation. Something to pay attention to.

Prelim strategy: Finding the diamond in the roughs is challenging, and I only found the few I found incidentally. I'd apply to your home program, any programs near your top choices for rad onc, and then which ever big name programs that are in cities you'd like to live. If you are going to work 80 hours a week, might as well use it as an opportunity to live somewhere you've always wanted to live right?

I'll do another post with more of my thoughts about programs!

 

[Sheldor]

I'm going to break the first rule of TY's, you don't talk about various TYs. I'm not sure why the rule exists, but it is SO hard to find good info on TYs.

Here is an excerpt of the excel spreadsheet I made while researching this with some of my thoughts

1) Virginia Mason - See above, Tl;dr - great program in seattle, an arguably cool city (if you dig big cities.

Texas
2) Methodist Houston - reputation of "cushness", which is true, but you also work hard on some rotations. If you are interested in Texas, definitely consider this program. Side note: If you're married, benefits for a family are >400 a month, and they pay in the high 40's. Not good math.
3) John peter smith - Had to cancel my interview due to rad onc conflict, but heard nothing but good things. If you want to be near Dallas this is the best TY.
4) Southwestern's TY in Austin Tx - Again, had to cancel but I hear Austin is amazing and I heard good things about the TY.


Midwest: If you want a good TY, most of them are here. Thats why there are more in this section. Better pay, better lifestyle, and more time for education
5) Aurora St. Lukes - amazing program that combines high pay, good hours and lots of education. Good hours for the good TY's doesn't mean you dont work, it means that you focus on "doctor" work and didactics so you learn a ton without running around doing scut work.
6) Kettering - GREAT program. Offers two months for away rotations. Many do one international and one away at their advanced program during their last month, essentially moving there early. Cool, right?
7) Akron general - heard great things, but don't know specifics
8) University of ND Fargo - heard its amazing, and heard that Fargo is better than you think, but my wife still said, "no." Something about a wood chipper?
9) Gundersen Lutheran - Very similar to Aurora St. Lukes, great on all three fronts. La Crosse is totally different than Milwaukee, but still very impressed.
10) St. Vincent in indianapolis - heard great things.
11) Iowa methodist - Des moines, didn't get an interview so more regional, but heard good things

East
12) Crozer-Chester - Philly is awesome, and this is one of the better ones there
13) UPMC Mercy in Pittsburgh - another awesome PA program
14) Reading Hospital - my favorite in PA, the most beaitufl small town in the fall, less than hour to Philly, and friendly staff. Great find if you're into PA
15) Sloan Kettering - Probably the most competitive TY in the country. Subsidized housing, varied experience, great. However, I didn't score an interview so I can't comment beyond that.
16) Riverside - Cool town, cool hospital. Considered the "cushiest" TY. I definitely got that impression, but still felt like learning was important so its not necessarily a bad thing. Their night float month was brutal with 6 nights on, one night off for 4-5 weeks. Ugh.
17) Christiana in Deleware - great program, with a prelim also. Another 2 for 1 deal because you can interview for both on the same day! (No difference in schedule save one elective month!)

South
18) Spartanburg - Crazy awesome program, in a smaller city. Seems fierce to get an interview, but if you do, definitely go.
19) THhe one in birmingham is supposedly awesome, but seems more regional, so tough to get an interview from out of the south.

Ones I know less about but made the short list:
1) Trident in Charleston SC
2) Colorado Health in Denver - heard great things, and hey, Colorado right?
3) Albert Einstein in PA
4) Lehigh Valley in PA
5) Lankaneau in PA
6) Presbyterian in Denver
7) Carney Transitional in Dorchester, MA - Best TY closer to Boston I believe
8) Resurrection in Chicago - hear amazing things

Hope this helps. It can be really daunting. I'd apply to everything within driving distance and then supplement with other programs like these, and I'd aim to go on about 10 intern interviews (TY+Prelim) I did about 7 or 8 TY's, and 3-5 prelims because of the way the schedule worked out. This was too many, but I figured i'd rather match than not so I went for it.

Let me know if you have anymore specific questions about these or other programs!

 

[cancerchamp]

Awesome! Thanks a lot Sheldor! Can you or other posters comment on how soon you start to hear back from TY and prelim programs after submitting your app? Also, with ASTRO being earlier this year, do you think rad onc programs will start giving out interviews earlier this year as well? Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[cancerchamp]

also when do the interviews typically begin? will they interfere with my october away rotation?

 

[Sheldor]

Awesome! Thanks a lot Sheldor! Can you or other posters comment on how soon you start to hear back from TY and prelim programs after submitting your app? Also, with ASTRO being earlier this year, do you think rad onc programs will start giving out interviews earlier this year as well? Thanks again for all the advice.

I can't comment on when Rad Onc will send out invites since I don't have the experience yet. Anecdotally it seemed like some programs sent out applications a little earlier last year with the earlier deans letter. That said, the bulk of mine came in the few days after ASTRO. In fact, the Friday after ASTRO i got 4 invites in one day, that was epic.

TY and Prelims will send them out earlier, I don't remember when my first invite came, but I had completed most of my TY interviews by November. Let me stress again, for TY, Prelim AND Rad Onc, REPLY Quickly. Carry your calendar with you, either electronically or otherwise. I didn't get to interview at John Peter Smith because I didn't check my phone during clinic and by the time I called an hour later the only dates that were available were at the end of the season and conflicted with Rad Onc interviews. GET A SMART PHONE.

also when do the interviews typically begin? will they interfere with my october away rotation?

So I had four interviews in November for Rad Onc, my first was on 11/16. I know others whose first wasn't until December. However, my strategy to avoid conflicts was to take the earliest available date, and it worked since I ended up with very few conflicts.

 

[Newquagmire]

There are a couple good TY's near Chicago, one in particular everyone raves about but I am totally blanking on the name (Found it, its Resurrection). It breaks the mold of good location = bad TY.

Last year there were a couple Resurrection-affiliated TYs. St. Francis in Evanston, is a great TY in a great location.

 

[jcradonc]

thanks Sheldor..awesome info!

 

[DukeNukem]

Intermountain in Utah - Great program!

Thank you Sheldor for that long summary of programs. I think that's better than any other thread on SDN!

I just quibble on the quoted one. Word on the street is that the program is pretty brutal. See also: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13131814&postcount=46 .

 

[Sheldor]

Thank you Sheldor for that long summary of programs. I think that's better than any other thread on SDN!

I just quibble on the quoted one. Word on the street is that the program is pretty brutal. See also: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13131814&postcount=46 .

You're welcome, I'm just glad I can pay some of it forward.

That is definitely on the tougher side, but again, while many on my list are "cushy" my biggest concern was a good education. Unfortunately, it felt like if you wanted to be West of Utah you had to put up with a little bit of brutality

But I didn't interview at intermountain, so I will defer the details to other threads!