Oh no, not another URM thread

[Cleavername]

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Every school develops a mission statement and develops admission plans to meet that mission. Even the historically black medical schools have non-African American students and therefore can claim to be diverse while maintaining their mission to prepare physicians to serve the underserved.

I posted the following over 4 years ago and it is still true today.

Q: If no URM were admitted to medical school, what proportion of those non-URM who do not matriculate in a given year (are not admitted to any school) would still be without an offer of admission?

A: I don't have my handy tables with me but I'm going to venture an estimate: The proportion of non-matriculants who would still be sitting out in the cold if no URM were admitted to any US medical school (including Howard and the other historically black institutions) is ~89%.

(about half of the ~35,000 applicants per year are not admitted to any school. About 10% of those who are admitted are URM and 10% of those who are not admitted are URM. So, currently ~15,750 non-URM do not get admitted to any school. If there were no URM, the number of non-URM who would not be admitted to any school would be ~14,000)



So we could eliminate admission of any URM, including some who are among the most academically qualified and we would only free up an additional 1,750 seats and 14,000 applicants would still be crying that someone grabbed up their seat.

ah not too bad of an argument, not even me would like to say anything too negative about it.
















































THEY ARE TAKING MAH SEATS.

i jk LizzyM.

 

[Jamiu22]

Has this issue being beaten to a pulp yet?

If not, carry on folks....byyyy God, carry on~!~!!

 

[LizzyM]

Has this issue being beaten to a pulp yet?

If not, carry on folks....byyyy God, carry on~!~!!

That we've gotten to >300 posts without being shut down is a statement to the civility with which current SDN pre-allo board folks are conducting themselves.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

"Yes, many Asians that immigrated were educated but many were not, a misconception that the majority were all highly educated."- This is what I said, not sure how that differs so much from what you said. And yes Asians that immigrated were often wealthy in their native countries, whether that translates to wealth here, I don't think so. As someone who is Asian Indian, my parents and the majority of my family immigrated. they were relatively well off in India but when they came here they had none of the monetary resources they had at home and started at the bottom. This is quite common in our Asian Indian society.

Vietnamese, Cambodian, Hmong Asian populations in America are still largely poor and poorly educated and they immigrated to America often do to unfortunate circumstances such as war or refugees and they are still poor. Since there parents didn't have any resources. Also by immigrating to America you have resources or you wouldn't be able to immigrate to America. So your parents were poorer in America than in India? Yet they still know how to accumulate resources and know how to cultivate successful children. So your parent's did not start out at the bottom.

As for why I and many others are against the "band-aid"
1. It's not a solution to the problem, just a temporary fix- No I don't have the answers as to how to fix the problem but I do think that changing cultural perceptions and getting parents more involved is paramount. The problem is that changing the system is expensive and no one wants to pitch in more than they already do.

The solution is to spend a lot of money on schools and to increase the earning capacity of people in the inner city. Which is very hard to do. Also what feasible solution to the problem do you propose. A band-aid is still better than nothing and if it is just a band-aid why are you complaining about it? Your argument is that idealistically we can do better therefore we shouldn't do any feasible realistic thing to help.

Again your argument against the band-aid makes no sense. Just because its temporary doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

2. With a limited number of med school seats, and competition only increasing med schools admissions are valuable. It seems unjust to penalize this generations white/ORM applicants for inequities that they had no part in creating or perpetuating. Further, with seats being so competitive it behooves ADCOM's to pick the best students they can based on GPA/MCAT/Research/EC and not use other factors. Diversity and balance is great and ideal but shouldn't come at the cost of a deserving student who has all the right "stats" but due for the need for diversity is bumped so that diversity is achieved. Whether those better stats translates into a better physician remains to be seen, but with such fierce competition shouldn't we be taking the best absolute candidates rather than creating a system of relative merits based on ethnicity, socioeconomic status, etc.

You nor anyone else is entitled to medical school. You do not deserve a seat on a medical school. The only thing that makes one deserving of being a doctor is completing medical school not getting in.

Whites/ORMs with low stats get just not in the % of ORMS but Asian and White populations make up such a larger amount of the medapplicant pool that those that get in with low numbers take a lot of seats. Why don't you protest them getting in?

Also Whites/ORMs with high stats that don't get in can always reapply and if they don't get in to allopathic under multiple tries they will most likely be able to land a osteopathic spot. And if they fail to do that they can go to the Caribbean and since they are smart they will most likely get through it.

Why do you feel so entitled to tell ADCOMs what that should or shouldn't do with their medschool seats? Did you buy them? All you did was get a good grade in a class that doesn't mean they have to let you in. Also the only correlation between pre-medical stats and medschool is MCAT and STEP1. Also all US Allopathic/Osteopathic doctors are very competent since they must take multiple board exams and go through grueling residency. If there is something a doctor doesn't know then they get referred to another doctor. Have a bunch of people with high stats doesn't ensure better "care" since you must go through so much schooling and training that good care depends on the attitude of the doctor and there people skills rather than knowledge base (and by that I also mean knowing what they don't know).

Also many topics on this board claim that if you can do well on the MCAT and get a good GPA you could do I-banking or whatever so I don't see why you are complaining. The people with good stats and research get in. And if there was no URM policy it still doesn't guarantee that the person in question would get in.

Also you claim that it isn't fair for Whites and Asians to let minorities in at a higher percentage at a certain stat level in academics but you make no claim of racism or the issues faced by minorities. Not to mention that certain minority groups have and unemployment rate of around 50% in the 17-22 age range and many other bad statistics. But those minorities with the same stats that it takes to get in an osteopathic school got into an allopathic school. Even though they apply in lower numbers have a lower overall rejection rate than whites and Asians and whites and Asians with low stats (26 MCAT and below) Almost match half the entire URM pop that gets into allopathic medschool (including those with higher than avg stats). If you just limit it to black(for all ranges that get accepted) ORMS with 26 and below MCAT have more people going into allopathic medschool. Sure you can argue that URMS get in at higher % with low stats but as you said it is the seats that matter. So why not complain about the ORMS that get in with low stats. Man why is life so unfair for whites and asians?

PS. I know you are a resident I'm talking hypothetically.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Also by immigrating to America you have resources or you wouldn't be able to immigrate to America.

Also the only correlation between pre-medical stats and medschool is MCAT and STEP1.

all US Allopathic/Osteopathic doctors are very competent .

i agree with the bulk of your statement... just not these..

 

[Suncrusher]

This link is for anyone who wants to lighten things up a bit now that the serious discussion has died down. I thought of this thread the minute I saw it

http://privilegedenyingdude.tumblr.com/

fair warning, it doesn't get funny for several pages. And you can't be in a serious mood

 

[Trolking]

entire [/B]URM pop that gets into allopathic medschool (including those with higher than avg stats). If you just limit it to black(for all ranges that get accepted) ORMS with 26 and below MCAT have more people going into allopathic medschool. Sure you can argue that URMS get in at higher % with low stats but as you said it is the seats that matter. So why not complain about the ORMS that get in with low stats. Man why is life so unfair for whites and asians?

PS. I know you are a resident I'm talking hypothetically.

what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[divajai]

I am overly tired of these type of threads. Nobody is going to agree. I've read plenty of these threads; just a bunch of arguing. The ORM are not going to ever understand what it is like to be a URM or the reasons why admissions committees implemented affirmative action. ORM are just mad because they feel like there being discriminated against and dont like it. URM get on these threads and explain the reasons for affirmative action and how they feel; because it is them who are the main subject in question. I just dont see the point. Its just like the republicans and democrats issues; no solutions.

Hugs
Jai

 

[Cleavername]

I am overly tired of these type of threads. Nobody is going to agree. I've read plenty of these threads; just a bunch of arguing. The ORM are not going to ever understand what it is like to be a URM or the reasons why admissions committees implemented affirmative action. ORM are just mad because they feel like there being discriminated against and dont like it. URM get on these threads and explain the reasons for affirmative action and how they feel; because it is them who are the main subject in question. I just dont see the point. Its just like the republicans and democrats issues; no solutions.

Hugs
Jai

its never about the conflict between the right and the wrong kid, its about 2 rights.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. May God have mercy on your soul.

I can post links to back up my claims of the i-banking thread and the URM statistics.

It's not my fault that you're too stupid to understand a basic argument that is beyond your intellect yet you still decided to get involved. Don't blame me for making you dumber blame yourself or God. If you can't understand what I posted and if you can't tell me why you think its an incoherent rambling, then may God have mercy on your parents for conceiving you.

 

[tabascosauce]

It's not my fault that you're stupid blame yourself or God. If you can't understand what I posted and if you can't tell me why you think its an incoherent rambling then may God have mercy on your parents for conceiving you.

boom there you go buddy 👍

 

[georgearms]

Also many topics on this board claim that if you can do well on the MCAT and get a good GPA you could do I-banking or whatever so I don't see why you are complaining. The people with good stats and research get in. And if there was no URM policy it still doesn't guarantee that the person in question would get in.

Also you claim that it isn't fair for Whites and Asians to let minorities in at a higher percentage at a certain stat level in academics but you make no claim of racism or the issues faced by minorities. Not to mention that certain minority groups have and unemployment rate of around 50% in the 17-22 age range and many other bad statistics. But those minorities with the same stats that it takes to get in an osteopathic school got into an allopathic school. Even though they apply in lower numbers have a lower overall rejection rate than whites and Asians and whites and Asians with low stats (26 MCAT and below) Almost match half the entire URM pop that gets into allopathic medschool (including those with higher than avg stats). If you just limit it to black(for all ranges that get accepted) ORMS with 26 and below MCAT have more people going into allopathic medschool. Sure you can argue that URMS get in at higher % with low stats but as you said it is the seats that matter. So why not complain about the ORMS that get in with low stats. Man why is life so unfair for whites and asians?

PS. I know you are a resident I'm talking hypothetically.

Brigade4Radiant, I actually agree with most of your posts, but you really can't see what's wrong with this?

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Brigade4Radiant, I actually agree with most of your posts, but you really can't see what's wrong with this?

Could you do what wagy27 did and point out what you don't agree with?

 

[Trolking]

Vietnamese, Cambodian, Hmong Asian populations in America are still largely poor and poorly educated and they immigrated to America often do to unfortunate circumstances such as war or refugees and they are still poor. Since there parents didn't have any resources. Also by immigrating to America you have resources or you wouldn't be able to immigrate to America. So your parents were poorer in America than in India? Yet they still know how to accumulate resources and know how to cultivate successful children. So your parent's did not start out at the bottom.



The solution is to spend a lot of money on schools and to increase the earning capacity of people in the inner city. Which is very hard to do. Also what feasible solution to the problem do you propose. A band-aid is still better than nothing and if it is just a band-aid why are you complaining about it? Your argument is that idealistically we can do better therefore we shouldn't do any feasible realistic thing to help.

Again your argument against the band-aid makes no sense. Just because its temporary doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.




You nor anyone else is entitled to medical school. You do not deserve a seat on a medical school. The only thing that makes one deserving of being a doctor is completing medical school not getting in.

Whites/ORMs with low stats get just not in the % of ORMS but Asian and White populations make up such a larger amount of the medapplicant pool that those that get in with low numbers take a lot of seats. Why don't you protest them getting in?

Also Whites/ORMs with high stats that don't get in can always reapply and if they don't get in to allopathic under multiple tries they will most likely be able to land a osteopathic spot. And if they fail to do that they can go to the Caribbean and since they are smart they will most likely get through it.

This is just idiotic

Why do you feel so entitled to tell ADCOMs what that should or shouldn't do with their medschool seats? Did you buy them? All you did was get a good grade in a class that doesn't mean they have to let you in. Also the only correlation between pre-medical stats and medschool is MCAT and STEP1. Also all US Allopathic/Osteopathic doctors are very competent since they must take multiple board exams and go through grueling residency. If there is something a doctor doesn't know then they get referred to another doctor. Have a bunch of people with high stats doesn't ensure better "care" since you must go through so much schooling and training that good care depends on the attitude of the doctor and there people skills rather than knowledge base (and by that I also mean knowing what they don't know).

The statement that all doctors are competent is completely false. Most are. Many lose thier license because of incompetence. In 2006 100 doctors in Massachusetts lost thier license. 225,000 americans die each year from medical mistakes. higher stats may not ensure better care but it is a good indicator. a much better indicator than race.

Also many topics on this board claim that if you can do well on the MCAT and get a good GPA you could do I-banking or whatever so I don't see why you are complaining. The people with good stats and research get in. And if there was no URM policy it still doesn't guarantee that the person in question would get in.

pointless, idiotic statement since no one here is claiming that everyone with good stats would get in if it wasnt for urms.

Also you claim that it isn't fair for Whites and Asians to let minorities in at a higher percentage at a certain stat level in academics but you make no claim of racism or the issues faced by minorities. Not to mention that certain minority groups have and unemployment rate of around 50% in the 17-22 age range and many other bad statistics. But those minorities with the same stats that it takes to get in an osteopathic school got into an allopathic school. Even though they apply in lower numbers have a lower overall rejection rate than whites and Asians and whites and Asians with low stats (26 MCAT and below) Almost match half the entire URM pop that gets into allopathic medschool (including those with higher than avg stats). If you just limit it to black(for all ranges that get accepted) ORMS with 26 and below MCAT have more people going into allopathic medschool. Sure you can argue that URMS get in at higher % with low stats but as you said it is the seats that matter. So why not complain about the ORMS that get in with low stats. Man why is life so unfair for whites and asians?

PS. I know you are a resident I'm talking hypothetically.

People are pissed because they are being treated as a group and not as idividuals. You are saying that my individual experience doesnt matter since other whites are getting in. as long as white people in general are getting seats i should just be happy? what is funny is how you think everyone should be treated based on their race and the individual doesnt matter, and yet you are completely clueless as to how racist you are.

 

[Cleavername]

People are pissed because they are being treated as a group and not as idividuals. You are saying that my individual experience doesnt matter since other whites are getting in. as long as white people in general are getting seats i should just be happy? what is funny is how you think everyone should be treated based on their race and the individual doesnt matter, and yet you are completely clueless as to how racist you are.

u raci....oh wait, valid argument.

 

[georgearms]

Also Whites/ORMs with high stats that don't get in can always reapply and if they don't get in to allopathic under multiple tries they will most likely be able to land a osteopathic spot. And if they fail to do that they can go to the Caribbean and since they are smart they will most likely get through it.

This goes for all applicants, including URMs.

Also many topics on this board claim that if you can do well on the MCAT and get a good GPA you could do I-banking or whatever so I don't see why you are complaining. The people with good stats and research get in. And if there was no URM policy it still doesn't guarantee that the person in question would get in.

Where are you trying to go with this I-banking stuff? And no one is arguing that no URM favoritism means non-URMS will be guaranteed acceptances.

Also you claim that it isn't fair for Whites and Asians to let minorities in at a higher percentage at a certain stat level in academics but you make no claim of racism or the issues faced by minorities. Not to mention that certain minority groups have and unemployment rate of around 50% in the 17-22 age range and many other bad statistics.

I really hope that medical schools are accepting URMs based on both stats and life experiences, and not as part of some grand scheme to fix racism and other disparities like the unemployment rate.

But those minorities with the same stats that it takes to get in an osteopathic school got into an allopathic school. Even though they apply in lower numbers have a lower overall rejection rate than whites and Asians and whites and Asians with low stats (26 MCAT and below) Almost match half the entire URM pop that gets into allopathic medschool (including those with higher than avg stats). If you just limit it to black(for all ranges that get accepted) ORMS with 26 and below MCAT have more people going into allopathic medschool. Sure you can argue that URMS get in at higher % with low stats but as you said it is the seats that matter. So why not complain about the ORMS that get in with low stats. Man why is life so unfair for whites and asians?

I really tried to sort through this, but it's a mess. Sorry.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

u raci....oh wait, valid argument.

No its really just a poor argument. Well if you think call others racist without any justification and just posting that things are idiotic well then I guess it is a valid argument...

People are pissed because they are being treated as a group and not as idividuals. You are saying that my individual experience doesnt matter since other whites are getting in. as long as white people in general are getting seats i should just be happy? what is funny is how you think everyone should be treated based on their race and the individual doesnt matter, and yet you are completely clueless as to how racist you are.

This is just idiotic.... I could be like you and just post things, but I'll show you why your arguments are lacking. One show why its idiotic just claiming something is idiotic shows nothing. Please look at wagy27's post on how to properly reply.

Also the medical error encompasses all health care professionals so you can't attribute it to doctors nor can you say that because they make medical errors that a large % of them are not competent in medical knowledge. I never said all doctors are competent in care but in knowledge. Since doctors must go through a large amount of training.

Also just picking someone with higher premed stats does not mean that this error will diminish or disappear which is what I was getting at. I never said race was a determines quality of care. Please post the evidence that links premedical stats to quality of care for physicians. And if what you are saying is true than osteopathic physicians would make more mistakes than allopathic.

Where did I say everyone should be treated as a race? I never said your individual experience didn't matter. I just said URM doesn't make a huge difference in your case if you are white. That doesn't mean individual experience doesn't matter.

So you use the race card and call be racist and make up points I never stated.

This is how you refute things you basically scarecrow my arguments. Who said they are not being treated as individuals. ADCOMs look over each applicant so I don't know where you get that from. Also read the topic people are claiming that URM policy takes away seats from deserving applicants like wagy27 argued.

Also you got into medschool so why are you complaining?

This goes for all applicants, including URMs.


Where are you trying to go with this I-banking stuff? And no one is arguing that no URM favoritism means non-URMS will be guaranteed acceptances.


I really hope that medical schools are accepting URMs based on both stats and life experiences, and not as part of some grand scheme to fix racism and other disparities like the unemployment rate.


I really tried to sort through this, but it's a mess. Sorry.

1. Yes it does go with all applicants so what about it?

2. Im pointing to the argument that many on SDN have made that if you can get into medical school you can get into other competitive fields. I don't necessarily believe that but I'm throwing it out there since it is used so much. And please read the topic people are arguing that URMS take away seats hence why the rich black kid vs poor white kid argument was used.

3. Yes they are basing and accepting URMS on stats and life experiences and mission statements. Also ADCOMs don't act like you think they should they do what they want since it is their medical school. An why makes you so entitled to tell ADCOMS what the should or shouldn't do with their medical school seats?

4. You can't "sort" through it since it is empirical evidence that refutes the claim that a good amount of seats are taken from people via URM policy. It shows that individual experience does matter. Hence why you can't argue with it. I also really can't sort through a lot of your "points" since there really isn't any substance to them.

 

[georgearms]

1. Yes it does go with all applicants so what about it?

That's what I'm wondering too! Why even say that whites and asians have other opportunities to apply again or apply DO? What is your point? The only thing I can think of is that you are trying to argue, hey, whites and asians aren't getting screwed by the URM stuff, they have other options!

2. Im pointing to the argument that many on SDN have made that if you can get into medical school you can get into other competitive fields. I don't necessarily believe that but I'm throwing it out there since it is used so much. And please read the topic people are arguing that URMS take away seats hence why the rich black kid vs poor white kid argument was used.

I still don't get it. Of course people who get into med school can get into other competitive fields. Are you saying that they should go into these competitive fields? I believe you are trying to make a point, but I don't know what it is.

3. Yes they are basing and accepting URMS on stats and life experiences and mission statements. Also ADCOMs don't act like you think they should they do what they want since it is their medical school. An why makes you so entitled to tell ADCOMS what the should or shouldn't do with their medical school seats?

Ok good, I'm glad that you think med schools are basing their URM selection on stats and life experiences. What you said (about there needing to be an acknowledgment of racism and unemployment rate disparities) led me to believe otherwise - that you think med schools accept URMs to right social wrongs. Why are you assuming that I feel entitled to tell Adcoms what they should and should not do? I only said that I am hoping they are doing what, in my mind, is right. I am all in favor of looking at each individual's life and achievements as a whole. I see no problem with how medical schools are accepting their applicants, and I applaud any attempts to make the process more holistic.

4. You can't "sort" through it since it is empirical evidence that refutes the claim that a good amount of seats are taken from people via URM policy. It shows that individual experience does matter. Hence why you can't argue with it. I also really can't sort through a lot of your "points" since there really isn't any substance to them.

No, I can't sort through it because the writing is poor and the thought process is not sequential. I was not trying to argue with you, I was trying to understand you. If you had done a better job explaining your arguments, then maybe I could have written something more substantial in response. We're on the same side. That being said, you come off a bit rude.

 

[BrainBuff]

 

[Suncrusher]

haha, totally. Also, seeing as priviledge-denying dude got a cease-and-desist order from istockphoto.com, this thread no longer holds any interest for me.

P.S.: