Oh no, not another URM thread

[Brigade4Radiant]

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And also in response to your statement, yes of course, but have you considered the difference in number/stats/EC of ORM and URM applicants?

I am not saying all URMs gets into top schools. Some schools grant acceptances on a point system. You get points for different reasons, MCAT, GPA, EC, and race. When admissions decision come, they add up all the points and do a cut-off. I just question why should being URM automatically adds people to your application.

LOL I love this question yet the same people who are against URM love advantages given to poor people. URM is racist!!!! Yeah will socioeconomic status is classism.

Here are your reasons.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/blckcost.htm
http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

 

[Narmerguy]

I think part of it is simply that the adcom's and the school organizations want to train students in a diverse environment. It's the same reason they don't go purely for the highest grades and the highest MCAT scores...they're looking for ways to enrich the student body. As hard as it is for some people to believe, having peers from different ethnic backgrounds is a common, easy way to enrich the experience of a student.

Now, there's plenty of other justifications a la institutional racism, socioeconomic blah blah blah. And that's all equally important but sadly disputed. The above really isn't.

 

[bastar88]

Nice anecdote. I take your point, the past isn't really kind to URM. Moreover, to most URMs, the present is not really kind either.

Now, here is an anecdote for you. What about Asians in the NBA?
Should Asians be favored in the NBA? If you are talking about underrepresented, asians are the most underrepresented in the NBA. However, I don't see NBA making exceptions to sign more Asian players.
Yet, there is Yao Ming, an allstar. Yao is equivalent to the all-star URMs in this medical school cycle, who are accomplished and qualified.

Now, there are people who can easily argue medicine and basketball are different. Here is the counter-argument, shouldn't medicine be more important and be decided in merit-based more than race-based.

I think... For the first time in awhile...someone has hit the nail on the head. Nice job Kalyx.

This is the fundamental issue. If don't think URMs are automatically at a disadvantage in most beaurocratic processes in the world, then helping them makes no sense. If you do, then it makes total sense.


Just think about something for a moment. I love the idea of time travel. I love science fiction and Back To The Future and HG Welles. I love dreaming about and imagining time travel. I think about the adventures I would have and the things I would go back and see.


So...think about being a little boy, dreaming of traveling in time. Would you go forward? Let's assume you would go back in time. Maybe 100 years....maybe 150. Live in the old west.


Now....imagine you are black.

The fantasy isnt fun anymore, is it? Suddnly a fundamental piece of you, how you look, is inadequte. You have to pretend even more....because to pretend you're back in time and not a piece of property, you have to pretend that you are white.

This is only an example. But think about how ideas such as this are pervasive in the head of someone who is a minority. And how there are places in this country where they are overtly unwelcome an even fearful. Just...have a little empathy for your fellow humans.

Sorry for any typos...I'm on a stupid iPhone.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

this thread is tl;dr.

all these ridculous URMzz!!! threads deserve a:

 

[bastar88]

Nah, I have my interviews and (one) acceptance.

You may ask why am I complaining? Not really complaining, but just asking. Why favoritism for all URMs? I will go to med school, and will learn with them and hopefully become good friends and colleagues. Thus, I want to get this issue cleared out of the way before I start schooling.

this thread is tl;dr.

all these ridculous URMzz!!! threads deserve a:

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Nah, I have my interviews and (one) acceptance.

You may ask why am I complaining? Not really complaining, but just asking. Why favoritism for all URMs? I will go to med school, and will learn with them and hopefully become good friends and colleagues. Thus, I want to get this issue cleared out of the way before I start schooling.

you may not be complaining, you're just using this supposed urm advantage that you beat out to pad your smugness a little more.

no one of substance is going to take this thread very seriously given your preposterous initial assumptions.

 

[bastar88]

These "initial assumptions" about the point system and URM going back to the community are from ADCOM across the nation and AAMC.

AAMC stated more URMs after medical school practice in underserved communities than ORMs to support favoritism for URMs. I started this thread to question if that is the case with students who get into top research schools.

I apologize if my statements had an air of smugness. Please cover your nose.

you may not be complaining, you're just using this supposed urm advantage that you beat out to pad your smugness a little more.

no one of substance is going to take this thread very seriously given your preposterous initial assumptions.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

These "initial assumptions" about the point system and URM going back to the community are from ADCOM across the nation and AAMC.

AAMC stated more URMs after medical school practice in underserved communities than ORMs to support favoritism for URMs. I started this thread to question if that is the case with students who get into top research schools.

I apologize if my statements had an air of smugness. Please cover your nose.

please show me where they this is the goal of URM favoritism.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

These "initial assumptions" about the point system and URM going back to the community are from ADCOM across the nation and AAMC.

AAMC stated more URMs after medical school practice in underserved communities than ORMs to support favoritism for URMs. I started this thread to question if that is the case with students who get into top research schools.

I apologize if my statements had an air of smugness. Please cover your nose.

This is what happens when you post a topic arguing about URM status.

I already told you why these policies are in place due to the social and economic disparity between the races. And it was answered yet you still remain as ignorant as ever.

 

[bastar88]

I can't find the official quote from AAMC (saw it awhile back). However, if you do a google search, you will find many articles about URM going back to the community.

Above is one of the first links I found. Read the sixth paragraph. Not the best evidence, I know. Once, I find the official quote, I will let you know.

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20020820hminority0820p3.asp

please show me where they this is the goal of URM favoritism.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

you are flipping aim and result. you sure you're going to a research school brah?

 

[crixx]

I find it striking that the word "privilege" has not been used once on this page.

OP, your questions suggest that there is an expectation in career path for those in the group of URM. Threads like this often fail to recognize why the URMs are URMs in the first place. And this brings us to a funny story called white privilege...

 

[bastar88]

Yes, I get your point. It is just this. Nobody really questions the URM status and the rationale behind the favoritism. They just blame the URMs for their misfortunes or favor the URMs. The ones who favor or support would usually say, just mind your own business. If you are good yourself, you should get in.

I here question it. And, ask if someone could enlighten me.

Also, regarding the class disparity, adding say maximum 130 (number of medical schools) * 40 (number of URM) per-year, would that really level out the social disparities. Making more URM richer is not the goal of URM favoritism. That is what I hope.

This is what happens when you post a topic arguing about URM status.

I already told you why these policies are in place due to the social and economic disparity between the races. And it was answered yet you still remain as ignorant as ever.

 

[roadrunr]

Here's a question. Who has more of a disadvantage, a white guy from a poor family or a black guy from a rich family? A better question is does it matter? We need the best in med school because lives depend on it. I think adcoms should be less concerned about being fair to the students and more concerned about the patients. i'm all for giving urms an advantage if they show a willingness to serve in communities no one else wants to. some schools show preferential treatment to people from small towns due to the need for doctors in rural areas. in my opinion thats ok, because taking care of the patients is still the goal.

 

[bastar88]

You can say that. I just don't understand why URM favoritism? Thus, I ask if anyone care to elaborate.

I already know the diversity part. I just find it hard to believe that ethinical diversity is the only reason.

you are flipping aim and result. you sure you're going to a research school brah?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Here's a question. Who has more of a disadvantage, a white guy from a poor family or a black guy from a rich family? A better question is does it matter? We need the best in med school because lives depend on it. I think adcoms should be less concerned about being fair to the students and more concerned about the patients. i'm all for giving urms an advantage if they show a willingness to serve in communities no one else wants to. some schools show preferential treatment to people from small towns due to the need for doctors in rural areas. in my opinion thats ok, because taking care of the patients is still the goal.

it is quite clear it doesn't take much in the way of gpa/mcat scores to be a successful med student (i.e. graduate in 4 years)... i think the limit is like 24 or a 26 on the MCAT

 

[bastar88]

I agree, thus I stated I understand schools like Morehouse. The part I don't understand are the top research institutions showing favoritism to URMs.

Here's a question. Who has more of a disadvantage, a white guy from a poor family or a black guy from a rich family? A better question is does it matter? We need the best in med school because lives depend on it. I think adcoms should be less concerned about being fair to the students and more concerned about the patients. i'm all for giving urms an advantage if they show a willingness to serve in communities no one else wants to. some schools show preferential treatment to people from small towns due to the need for doctors in rural areas. in my opinion thats ok, because taking care of the patients is still the goal.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You can say that. I just don't understand why URM favoritism? Thus, I ask if anyone care to elaborate.

I already know the diversity part. I just find it hard to believe that ethinical diversity is the only reason.

it's a paradigm thing, you wouldn't be so flippant about "diversity," i would conjecture, if you had a stronger grasp of the "black experience." it's a good thing, then, that your school will have a certain number of URMs around to hopefully enrich your experience.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Yes, I get your point. It is just this. Nobody really questions the URM status and the rationale behind the favoritism. They just blame the URMs for their misfortunes or favor the URMs. The ones who favor or support would usually say, just mind your own business. If you are good yourself, you should get in.

I here question it. And, ask if someone could enlighten me.

Wow you can't be serious. People question the URM status all the time and it is usually the ones who are ignorant about the social status of URMs. Do you question the higher prison sentence for URMs for the same crimes? Or how being poor or having a disability gives you a disadvantage? But no status for URMs which is 7% is just too much even though about the same % of ORMs get in with low stats and that URM number consists of URMs with above avg stats but you don't question that.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Here's a question. Who has more of a disadvantage, a white guy from a poor family or a black guy from a rich family? A better question is does it matter? We need the best in med school because lives depend on it. I think adcoms should be less concerned about being fair to the students and more concerned about the patients. i'm all for giving urms an advantage if they show a willingness to serve in communities no one else wants to. some schools show preferential treatment to people from small towns due to the need for doctors in rural areas. in my opinion thats ok, because taking care of the patients is still the goal.

Oh great this fail argument rears its head just in time. I know the argument sounded well in your head but in reality...

Yes the old poor white guy vs "rich" black guy man I can't debate against that 🙄. Even though rich black guys are an empirical rarity. I think ADCOMS should be concerned about being fair to students since they admit students and DOCTORS should be concerned about the patient.

Why do you think you are so entitled to tell ADCOMs how they should do their job? And if URMs don't practice in those areas please tell me how their is a lack of concern about the well being of patients? ADCOMs know what the "best" is better than you do. Especially since residency and going through all that training makes competent physicians. Are you saying that patients in areas where no one whats to practice in theory should get the "less" than the best? Anyway that isn't the case Medschool is grueling and residency is grueling hence patients are in good care under a physician. Hence the concern about the lack of them.

 

[bastar88]

I sure hope so. I went to schools that were predominantly white/asian. I may be ignorant on what URMs have to go through. That being said, everyone has their own problems. I know in detail the immigrant experience, one of my best friends is an immigrant (whose family had nothing and spoke zero English and lived in 1998 toyota van for half a year ). My family went through a lot also (not really want to share here).

What I am saying is beside the point of my argument, but really just stating that everyone has **** on their plate.

it's a paradigm thing, you wouldn't be so flippant about "diversity," i would conjecture, if you had a stronger grasp of the "black experience." it's a good thing, then, that your school will have a certain number of URMs around to hopefully enrich your experience.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I sure hope so. I went to schools that were predominantly white/asian. I may be ignorant on what URMs have to go through. That being said, everyone has their own problems. I know in detail the immigrant experience, one of my best friends is an immigrant (whose family had nothing and spoke zero English and lived in 1998 toyota van for half a year ). My family went through a lot also (not really want to share here).

What I am saying is beside the point of my argument, but really just stating that everyone has **** on their plate.

and now you're whing.

 

[bastar88]

If it takes whining to answer your post, I guess I am whining. Sigh, I am done with this thread. What a big waste of time, when all I am trying to do is learn more the URM favoritism, and I get attacked (not for my argument but me as a person). Almost like election campaigns.

So, good luck all of you. We are all going through this application cycle, so at some point, we all have probably shared the same emotions. Instead of hating and defending myself, I just wish you all to go to your dream schools.

And regarding URMs, to be continued ...

and now you're whing.

 

[MCAT guy]

What I am saying is beside the point of my argument, but really just stating that everyone has **** on their plate.

All the more reason that we should all encourage each other regardless of what is going on in any Adcom!

Good luck to you bastar88. Good luck to the URMs, rich and poor. Good luck to the ORMs.

Hopefully everyone achieves their goals in good time, regardless of the system we are in. And then we can help all those around us with **** on their plates 🙂

 

[MCAT guy]

If it takes whining to answer your post, I guess I am whining. Sigh, I am done with this thread. What a big waste of time, when all I am trying to do is learn more the URM favoritism, and I get attacked (not for my argument but me as a person). Almost like election campaigns.

So, good luck all of you. We are all going through this application cycle, so at some point, we all have probably shared the same emotions. Instead of hating and defending myself, I just wish you all to go to your dream schools.

And regarding URMs, to be continued ...

Sometimes it is better to just accept things or people, rather than having to completely understand them. Good luck bro.

 

[ModerateMouse]

However, how about URMs who attend Harvard, Yale, and other top research institutions. Will they give up all opportunities and prestige to serve the "ghetto" communities?

Just something on my mind.

So, from what I understand you are trying to make sense of having 'special' policies for URMs at the upper tier schools?

Is that your main question?

If it is, then I would have to agree with a couple of other people on this thread. I think that the main goal of having URM specific policies is not to send more people to work in these disadvantaged areas.

I think that this may end up being one of the consequences, but I don't think that it's a goal. I think that the main goal is simply to make the system more fair to people who may very well make good doctors yet for one reason or another have poorer stats than the other applicants.

Does that make sense?

I do agree with the idea that URMs should be treated within the context of their lives by the adcoms. I.e., simply being a URM and not even attempting to get clinical exposure/research experience/outreach experience should not be looked on favorably by adcoms.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I sure hope so. I went to schools that were predominantly white/asian. I may be ignorant on what URMs have to go through. That being said, everyone has their own problems. I know in detail the immigrant experience, one of my best friends is an immigrant (whose family had nothing and spoke zero English and lived in 1998 toyota van for half a year ). My family went through a lot also (not really want to share here).

What I am saying is beside the point of my argument, but really just stating that everyone has **** on their plate.

How the hell does your personal anecdotes take away the large economic disparity between races that empirical evidence shows? Oh guys everyone has **** on their plate well don't do anything about the group that has a higher % of people who have more **** on their plate!!

Oh the immigrant argument well tell me how did they immigrant here if they couldn't speak english? They had no skills? Not to mention that while they may be poor their children will most likely out earn their parents and most native americans (This applies to first generation immigrants who have the means to immigrate to America legally).

http://futureofchildren.org/futureo...x.xml?journalid=35&articleid=87&sectionid=527

 

[roadrunr]

Oh great this fail argument rears its head just in time. I know the argument sounded well in your head but in reality...

Yes the old poor white guy vs "rich" black guy man I can't debate against that 🙄. Even though rich black guys are an empirical rarity. I think ADCOMS should be concerned about being fair to students since they admit students and DOCTORS should be concerned about the patient.

Why do you think you are so entitled to tell ADCOMs how they should do their job? And if URMs don't practice in those areas please tell me how their is a lack of concern about the well being of patients? ADCOMs know what the "best" is better than you do. Especially since residency and going through all that training makes competent physicians. Are you saying that patients in areas where no one whats to practice in theory should get the "less" than the best? Anyway that isn't the case Medschool is grueling and residency is grueling hence patients are in good care under a physician. Hence the concern about the lack of them.

I was actually just repeating what someone working in admissions gave me as the reason for giving advantages to urms and people from rural areas. It makes sense to me anyway. so just relax, i'm not telling adcoms how to do thier job, i doubt they'd listen if I did. theres no reason to get your panties in a bunch.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

This is what happens when you post a topic arguing about URM status.

I already told you why these policies are in place due to the social and economic disparity between the races. And it was answered yet you still remain as ignorant as ever.

Did this guy just sledgehammer a mine? Context please!

 

[TexasBelle87]

I love how the OP assumes that All URMs come from the ghetto lol!!

 

[murfettie]

what moderate mouse said...

it's med schools easy way out for racial diversity. they say all sorts of things to justify it, but they are just not at a place to correct the social economic issues to rectify barriers for URMs achieve that 35.

they just want more colors on their class palate.

the question is, should obama's kids get this color palate preference?

 

[bookfreak89]

what moderate mouse said...

it's med schools easy way out for racial diversity. they say all sorts of things to justify it, but they are just not at a place to correct the social economic issues to rectify barriers for URMs achieve that 35.

they just want more colors on their class palate.

the question is, should obama's kids get this color palate preference?

1. Obama is the President of the United States. Of course his children will get social privileges.

2. Obama is (should I even be saying this?) not representative of URMs. URMs from "well off" families are not typical. Plus, no one has data of the # of URMs who come from poor/rich backgrounds. Because no one has any actual data, this is just an easy way for people to complain/whine about URMs (c wut i did thar?). There may be other legitimate reasons to discuss, but this is not one of them.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I like how at one time women were URMs (though never officially labeled a URM).

Schools now have 50/50 ratio.

Schools are now aiming to have a good representation of the population. 50% men, 50% women. They also are trying to do that with URMs... have their class be representative of the population.

Of course URMs have it tougher throughout there life and even aiming for medicine. People expect their doctors to be white old men (women still have it tough for this reason... as many patients might not trust their advice/diagnosis completely). As a kid, I went to the best pediatrician around, but when my parents told their friends his name (Hispanic-sounding), they would recommend their pediatrician. He wasn't a white old man, and therefore couldn't be the best doctor out there. Luckily are society is getting better, as his waiting room has changed from mostly minorities to all different types of people... but that doesn't mean our country is not ready to forget about race.

Anyways, it doesn't matter what community they ultimately serve when schools take URMs, they are just trying to have them in the workforce and show that URMs can be doctors (and serve as mentors for other URMs).

Additionally, it does help to have URMs out there because many minorities don't trust white doctors and will therefore seek out a URM doctor in order to get their care... rather than avoiding the healthcare field.

I will be excited for the day that colleges and medical schools will be representative not only of the national demographics (but many of their county demographics... aka mostly white school surrounded by a black neighborhood should try to have more diversity)

Anyways, my two cents... after just waking up for the day... so sorry if it isn't cohert

 

[Kalyx]

I think... For the first time in awhile...someone has hit the nail on the head. Nice job Kalyx.

Thank you, although I think you may have been the only person to read my post! 🙄


~Kalyx

 

[the duck]

The second anyone makes a thread about URMs everyone jumps on he bandwagon and starts attacking people. I think the OP raises a valid question, one of the reasons that people advocate our current URM laws is so that "the face of medicine, is the same as the populous" meaning a minority who goes to a hospital is not surrounding by entirely white doctors. The OP isn't saying that the URM program is a bad thing, just asking a completely valid question.

Now, for my response. Some URMs will end up working in underserved communities, and some won't. However, I really don't think it matters. Either way, they will be working in a clinical setting, where there will be some minorities. By increasing the percent of minorities in medicine across the board, it stands to figure we will be increasing the amount minority doctors who are working in populations made up substantial of minorities.

 

[jvesco22]

ITT: OP keeps saying he has (one) acceptance which makes it OK to make a URM thread and whine about it. In reality though, OP probably got one acceptance to a school ranked 20 on his list of 21 schools and hasn't been getting any love from his top schools. What he's really doing is whining about the URMs that took those spots from him and now he has to settle for the bottom of the barrel. inb4someonesays1acceptanceisallyouneeed.

If anyone else wants me to read their mind or tell their future, my contact info is below.

 

[Kalyx]

I like how at one time women were URMs (though never officially labeled a URM).

Schools now have 50/50 ratio.

Schools are now aiming to have a good representation of the population. 50% men, 50% women. They also are trying to do that with URMs... have their class be representative of the population.

Of course URMs have it tougher throughout there life and even aiming for medicine. People expect their doctors to be white old men (women still have it tough for this reason... as many patients might not trust their advice/diagnosis completely). As a kid, I went to the best pediatrician around, but when my parents told their friends his name (Hispanic-sounding), they would recommend their pediatrician. He wasn't a white old man, and therefore couldn't be the best doctor out there. Luckily are society is getting better, as his waiting room has changed from mostly minorities to all different types of people... but that doesn't mean our country is not ready to forget about race.

Anyways, it doesn't matter what community they ultimately serve when schools take URMs, they are just trying to have them in the workforce and show that URMs can be doctors (and serve as mentors for other URMs).

Additionally, it does help to have URMs out there because many minorities don't trust white doctors and will therefore seek out a URM doctor in order to get their care... rather than avoiding the healthcare field.

I will be excited for the day that colleges and medical schools will be representative not only of the national demographics (but many of their county demographics... aka mostly white school surrounded by a black neighborhood should try to have more diversity)

Anyways, my two cents... after just waking up for the day... so sorry if it isn't cohert

Thanks for your thoughtful post. It is interesting to mention how women were and certainly are disadvantaged in the medical profession; I personally know two female medical students who were sexually harassed by attendings in an evaluative position, and women continue to be asked questions about family planning in medical school interviews more frequently than men. Despite the fact that more women are now enrolled in medical school than men, there are huge gender disparities among the specialties, so a glass ceiling remains. Sexual minorities also have a lot of disadvantages within the medical profession.

Although, in these instances, women and sexual minorities most certainly have it harder than WASP males from a financially comfortable background in medicine, I don't think that either should be classified as "URM" during the admissions process. Although "URM-favorability" takes into account oppressions like institutionalized racism and minority stress, it also considers educational disparities, as these disparities significantly reduce visibility of certain minorities in higher education and professional schooling. Low visibility reinforces many young URM students' sense of disenfranchisement with respect to academic education and thus serves as a barrier. Women and sexual minorities encounter certain forms of oppression, but they don't suffer from the same educational disparities that have long hindered URMs in gaining access to medical education.

I think the latter point extends to some ethnic minorities such as East and South Asians. Although they certainly encounter racism, they aren't classified as URM because they have strong representation in higher education.

Even if one doesn't qualify as URM, being "different" in some way that introduces particular adversities into his/her life can catch the eye of admissions staff looking to improve their school's diversity, demonstrate resilience, and endow him/her with facility in administering culturally competent care.

~Kalyx

 

[MCAT guy]

I think the key here is to treat others how you would like to be treated.

And, to work in the system how it's set up. There will always be +'s and -'s we can't change, but what you can control is your character and actions in the system.

GOOD DAY SIR!

 

[Doctor246853]

what makes you think that the URMs are "supposed" to go back to the "ghettos" where they supposedly came from?

This. URMs are trying to get out of the ghetto so why should they be pressured to return any more than a non URM? I think the individual should be the one to make that choice not their URM status.👎

 

[bastar88]

Thank you, although I think you may have been the only person to read my post! 🙄


~Kalyx

Don't worry, I read your post also. Thank you for your reply, although it had a somewhat absolute tone.

 

[bastar88]

To be honest, you are right in that UVA is not my top choice. Not because it is not a great school, but because I don't think I will get used to living in Virginia. That said, I wasn't rejected from the top schools on my list. I am waiting to hear from them post-interview.

ITT: OP keeps saying he has (one) acceptance which makes it OK to make a URM thread and whine about it. In reality though, OP probably got one acceptance to a school ranked 20 on his list of 21 schools and hasn't been getting any love from his top schools. What he's really doing is whining about the URMs that took those spots from him and now he has to settle for the bottom of the barrel. inb4someonesays1acceptanceisallyouneeed.

If anyone else wants me to read their mind or tell their future, my contact info is below.

 

[bastar88]

Sounded very coherent to me. Thanks for your length reply. Great example about the women. I can now better see the long run effect of URM favoritism

I like how at one time women were URMs (though never officially labeled a URM).

Schools now have 50/50 ratio.

Schools are now aiming to have a good representation of the population. 50% men, 50% women. They also are trying to do that with URMs... have their class be representative of the population.

Of course URMs have it tougher throughout there life and even aiming for medicine. People expect their doctors to be white old men (women still have it tough for this reason... as many patients might not trust their advice/diagnosis completely). As a kid, I went to the best pediatrician around, but when my parents told their friends his name (Hispanic-sounding), they would recommend their pediatrician. He wasn't a white old man, and therefore couldn't be the best doctor out there. Luckily are society is getting better, as his waiting room has changed from mostly minorities to all different types of people... but that doesn't mean our country is not ready to forget about race.

Anyways, it doesn't matter what community they ultimately serve when schools take URMs, they are just trying to have them in the workforce and show that URMs can be doctors (and serve as mentors for other URMs).

Additionally, it does help to have URMs out there because many minorities don't trust white doctors and will therefore seek out a URM doctor in order to get their care... rather than avoiding the healthcare field.

I will be excited for the day that colleges and medical schools will be representative not only of the national demographics (but many of their county demographics... aka mostly white school surrounded by a black neighborhood should try to have more diversity)

Anyways, my two cents... after just waking up for the day... so sorry if it isn't cohert

 

[bastar88]

Thank you! I was going to give up on this thread, but I know now there are those who would comment and contribute constructively to my proposed question. So, I will again share what I have on my mind, if anyone bothers to read.

The second anyone makes a thread about URMs everyone jumps on he bandwagon and starts attacking people. I think the OP raises a valid question, one of the reasons that people advocate our current URM laws is so that "the face of medicine, is the same as the populous" meaning a minority who goes to a hospital is not surrounding by entirely white doctors. The OP isn't saying that the URM program is a bad thing, just asking a completely valid question.

Now, for my response. Some URMs will end up working in underserved communities, and some won't. However, I really don't think it matters. Either way, they will be working in a clinical setting, where there will be some minorities. By increasing the percent of minorities in medicine across the board, it stands to figure we will be increasing the amount minority doctors who are working in populations made up substantial of minorities.

 

[FIREitUP]

It's aint easy bein white,
It aint easy bein brown.
All this pressure to be bright.
I got kids all over town!

 

[bastar88]

I didn't want to bore everyone at the beginning with a length post. Thus, I couldn't mention in details my question. Seeing how everyone is reading and commenting, I will go into details here.

My focus is on the "continuum of care." (primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary ). I understand the importance of URM in primary care (internal medicine, family medicine, and pediatrics). To be honest, physicians in primary care are the gateway of the patients to medicine. Thus, it is important to for the patients to trust their physicians and for the physicians to understand the patients. Thus, I completely agree with URM favoritism for medical schools that promote primary care.

However, once you climb the continuum of care - to secondary (Radiology, Neurology, OB/GYN), tertiary (general surgery), and Quaternary (Neurosurgery), patient interaction becomes less important. It is more about knowledge and ability. Thus, to provide better care, you want the most able physicians. That said, should schools like Harvard, Yale, and other top research institutions (where most students go into secondary, tertiary, and quaternary care) show a favoritism for URMs?

To level out the social disparity over time by admitting some URMs, who may be less qualified, no doubt sacrifices the quality of patient care. I am sure patients with specific needs would not like that. Thus, I ask is there another reason?

 

[the duck]

I didn't want to bore everyone at the beginning with a length post. Thus, I couldn't mention in details my question. Seeing how everyone is reading and commenting, I will go into details here.

My focus is on the "continuum of care." (primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary ). I understand the importance of URM in primary care (internal medicine, family medicine, and pediatrics). To be honest, physicians in primary care are the gateway of the patients to medicine. Thus, it is important to for the patients to trust their physicians and for the physicians to understand the patients. Thus, I completely agree with URM favoritism for medical schools that promote primary care.

However, once you climb the continuum of care - to secondary (Radiology, Neurology, OB/GYN), tertiary (general surgery), and Quaternary (Neurosurgery), patient interaction becomes less important. It is more about knowledge and ability. Thus, to provide better care, you want the most able physicians. That said, should schools like Harvard, Yale, and other top research institutions (where most students go into secondary, tertiary, and quaternary care) show a favoritism for URMs?

To level out the social disparity over time by admitting some URMs, who may be less qualified, no doubt sacrifices the quality of patient care. I am sure patients with specific needs would not like that. Thus, I ask is there another reason?

Primary care specialities are the easiest to get into. While things like rads and neurosurge are quite competitive and you need to be near the top of your medical school class to get into one of these residencies. There isn't favoritism to URMs when getting into residency, hence only the people qualified to be neurosurgeons will become one, based off their performance IN medical school.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

To level out the social disparity over time by admitting some URMs, who may be less qualified, no doubt sacrifices the quality of patient care. I am sure patients with specific needs would not like that. Thus, I ask is there another reason?

I don't think URMs accepted into medical school are less qualified and will negatively effect quality of patient care. I believe you only need a 26 on the MCAT to have a 99% chance of passing the USMLE on your first attempt... and anything above a 3.5 GPA (maybe even a 3.0) suggests you will be able to learn the material in medical school (though maybe not as swiftly or as excellently as your 3.8 counterparts... but you will have the knowledge to be a good physician).

Some URMs may not have the 30+ MCAT and 3.6+ GPA, but they may for being "less qualified" (via their numbers), but maybe having better social skills (with undeserved populations), or having the ability to really be compassionate or emphasize with diverse populations. Of course, non-URMs also will have this ability... but maybe the simple fact that the URM will be the same color as their minority patient will help the patient be at ease and help them get better patient care in the long run.

Really though, if you graduated medical school, regardless if you were "less qualified" than other applicants, you will be able to provide good patient care regardless. People don't need to be super-geniuses with perfect MCAT scores and GPAs to be a good efficient doctor.

 

[bastar88]

Primary care specialities are the easiest to get
into. While things like rads and neurosurge are quite competitive and you need to be near the top of your medical school class to get into one of these residencies. There isn't favoritism to URMs when getting into residency, hence only the people qualified to be neurosurgeons will become one, based off their performance IN medical school.

Are you sure? For one, going to Harvard is already a boost in their application. I know this because my mentor is a very influential member at a top 3 residency program.

 

[bastar88]

I don't think the success of a physician is about graduating medical school. I am sure most people can cram everything and pass every test in medical school. Moreover, in the upper continuum of care, patient interaction is less important. And last lastly, I am not really talking about being an efficient doctor, but the opportunity to be a specialized doctor.

I don't think URMs accepted into medical school are less qualified and will negatively effect quality of patient care. I believe you only need a 26 on the MCAT to have a 99% chance of passing the USMLE on your first attempt... and anything above a 3.5 GPA (maybe even a 3.0) suggests you will be able to learn the material in medical school (though maybe not as swiftly or as excellently as your 3.8 counterparts... but you will have the knowledge to be a good physician).

Some URMs may not have the 30+ MCAT and 3.6+ GPA, but they may for being "less qualified" (via their numbers), but maybe having better social skills (with undeserved populations), or having the ability to really be compassionate or emphasize with diverse populations. Of course, non-URMs also will have this ability... but maybe the simple fact that the URM will be the same color as their minority patient will help the patient be at ease and help them get better patient care in the long run.

Really though, if you graduated medical school, regardless if you were "less qualified" than other applicants, you will be able to provide good patient care regardless. People don't need to be super-geniuses with perfect MCAT scores and GPAs to be a good efficient doctor.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

Are you sure? For one, going to Harvard is already a boost in their application. I know this because my mentor is a very influential member at a top 3 residency program.

There isn't favoritism in the sense that you are a URM, but being from havard might help your case. There is a range of scores/activities that are taken account for all residencies.. so while you might have been less qualified upon entering Havard, but you might have published more research or participated in community service...or use your personable skills to get great LORS... or who knows, get a 240+ on the USMLE...

you might be interested in this: http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

OP, I think I focused on the bold more so than the rest of your above statement. You probably should try to ask a specific question.

I still stand by my basic argument. If you are a URM accepted into a more specialized residency, you will continue to provide patient with good quality of care (maybe even better since you are so focused on one topic and will know everything about it... compared to generalized care)