Are any of you experiencing what I am experiencing? I decided to go to an osteopathic medical school, and now I am constantly having to explain my choice to family & friends. I am also constantly having to explain to them that a D.O. is a real physician. Many won't say that I am becoming a doctor, but an osteopath (which I think is an outdated term). Many of them seem to think that is as easy to become a D.O. as becoming an R.N. or something. I also have family members that are M.D.s and they are outdated on their thoughts on D.O.s. They think its fine for primary care (but not as good though as an M.D. program), but not for specializing. They have a lot of misperceptions, but don't seem to want to listen to me state the facts. The common Joe has no idea that there are medical doctors that are not M.D.s. I am proud that someday I will become a D.O., but I am very sick of all of this now, and I am becoming frustrated over it. Crucify me if you will (people like DOGBOY), but this is how I feel. I don't take to kindly to people belittleing my choice because I have worked very hard to get here. Anybody have similar experiences or suggestions on how I should deal with this (externally and internally)?
OK, I'm sick of explaining my choice of becoming a D.O.
- Thread starter Synergy
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synergy,
i have gone through a similar situation. my boyfriend's family does not understand either...they are still trying to encourage me to reconsiider and go to PA school instead because they think it is the equivalent as a DO degree. it is frustrating to explain at times because it makes you think of how many other ignorant people there are in the country that don't understand and don't believe you when you try to explain it. i think it will wear off...i don't think people pay much attention to the letters after your name...but to the quality of care you will provide...so hang in there.
i have gone through a similar situation. my boyfriend's family does not understand either...they are still trying to encourage me to reconsiider and go to PA school instead because they think it is the equivalent as a DO degree. it is frustrating to explain at times because it makes you think of how many other ignorant people there are in the country that don't understand and don't believe you when you try to explain it. i think it will wear off...i don't think people pay much attention to the letters after your name...but to the quality of care you will provide...so hang in there.
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I've had similar experiences but I seem to care less than most. Actually I go out of my way to tell them I'm going to a D.O. school. Most of them are obviously confused when I tell them but don't ask for further explanation because they don't want to appear ignorant. I guess I feel this way because I've had a lot of life experiences that most people haven't and I just don't give a crap what anyone thinks. Just take advantage of the opportunity to educate them with the facts and that's about as far as you can go. Heck, I didn't know what a DO was either when I decided do go into medicine, but now I do and I'm glad I took the time to research the profession.
you could always remind them of the "famous" docs who are DOs - the surgeon general comes to mind. or ask them when the last time was they asked their personal physician what his/her letters were, where he/she went to school and how he/she performed on the boards.
take heart however, because you are not the only person having trouble here - i have had to explain my choice a number of times as well. just remember that in a couple months, you will be surrounded by people who know what a DO is and does. become the best physician you can become and then set out to help as many people as you can - lead by example.
take heart however, because you are not the only person having trouble here - i have had to explain my choice a number of times as well. just remember that in a couple months, you will be surrounded by people who know what a DO is and does. become the best physician you can become and then set out to help as many people as you can - lead by example.
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When you say "surgeon general" I suppose you are referring to the surgeon generals of the Army and Coast Guard and not Dr. Satcher. Oh yeah, if they watch CNN, that guy Dr. Steve Salvatore that does all the medical reporting is a DO from NYCOM.
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You should have expected and realized that this would occur before you went into osteopathic medicine. One of my friend's(who's going to an MD school) father is a DO and he says that he has had to spend alot of time explaining to others what a DO is and trying to get the respect (professional and otherwise) that he deserves. This is one of the reasons why his son is going to an allopathic school, he just doesn't want to spend half of his waking hours explaining what a DO is.
I think that the simplest thing to do would be to simply say that you're going to "medical school" and leave it at that. If they ask where, just tell them the state where you'll be going to school and let them assume for themselves which school you'll be going to. I'm not saying that you should be ashamed to be a DO, just be discreet. You'll save yourself alot of effort that way.
I think that the simplest thing to do would be to simply say that you're going to "medical school" and leave it at that. If they ask where, just tell them the state where you'll be going to school and let them assume for themselves which school you'll be going to. I'm not saying that you should be ashamed to be a DO, just be discreet. You'll save yourself alot of effort that way.
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Not exactly. This was something I noticed in an old girlfriend who was accepted into a DO school in the east. She told me that she was going to be a DO (because I knew what a DO was) but she didn't tell alot of her friends and acquaintances that she was headed to a DO school, just a "med school." I don't condemn her and I don't really think that she's deceiving anyone. A lot of DO's use the term "Dr. Homer Simpson" instead of "Homer Simpson, DO". It's just a matter of utilitarian convenience.
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We all go through this. You will get better at explaining things to people also. This is how I see it.
People who wonder what a DO is fall into two categories:1)the genuinely are interested to learn about this and are open minded. 2)people who don't know but have a chip on their shoulder about DOs in spite of their ignorance.
You will become skilled at very quickly determining which category these people fall into. The first category is pretty easy to deal with because they are curious. Explain away with them, but monitor their interest level. Most people will give you the I have had enough look when they don't want to hear anymore.
The second category is trickier. You need to be firm with these people. If they give you the "oh like a chiropractor" line with a sneer, realize that you are NOT going to change their opinion and that it is best to defend yourself briefly and leave it at that. With these people do not give any ground, be firm and yet do not be antagonistic. Correct them and if they get fresh about it call them on it. If you confront someone's ignorance they won't say much (ie. "from what you have told me you have you have a very uninformed concept of what a DO is. If you are interested in learning I would be glad to tell you.") Take the ball to them and control the conversation.
Perhaps the third category would be the health care worker (and more rarely Doctor, or podiatrist, etc.) who will give you lip. For these people, only cold hard facts will work. Have an armamentarium of names of DOs in high places that they are familiar with. Heads of departments in other schools, fellows at certain programs. All these names are out there on the internet. DOs are everywhere. As an example, a fellow student of mine at CCOM did an ambulance ride along. The Paramedics gave her some crap about being a DO student. They were not aware of the fact that their boss (head of Chicago EMS) is a DO. She told them and they shut up about it because they looked pretty silly. This is a too perfect example almost, but the point is most of the people who fall into this category either work with or know of a doc who is a DO but just don't know it.
I truly believe that it all depends on how you carry yourself. If someone asks you where you are going to school, tell them, don't hide any information and don't be ashamed. If you act confidently and don't have a tone of voice that seeks their approval people will either:1) leave it at that, 2)ask you genuinely what osteopathy is. I have also been suprised by coments like "oh my parents doctor was a DO and he was the best doctor I ever had." sounds corny, but it has happened to me twice like that.
Bottom line: don't take any crap.
People who wonder what a DO is fall into two categories:1)the genuinely are interested to learn about this and are open minded. 2)people who don't know but have a chip on their shoulder about DOs in spite of their ignorance.
You will become skilled at very quickly determining which category these people fall into. The first category is pretty easy to deal with because they are curious. Explain away with them, but monitor their interest level. Most people will give you the I have had enough look when they don't want to hear anymore.
The second category is trickier. You need to be firm with these people. If they give you the "oh like a chiropractor" line with a sneer, realize that you are NOT going to change their opinion and that it is best to defend yourself briefly and leave it at that. With these people do not give any ground, be firm and yet do not be antagonistic. Correct them and if they get fresh about it call them on it. If you confront someone's ignorance they won't say much (ie. "from what you have told me you have you have a very uninformed concept of what a DO is. If you are interested in learning I would be glad to tell you.") Take the ball to them and control the conversation.
Perhaps the third category would be the health care worker (and more rarely Doctor, or podiatrist, etc.) who will give you lip. For these people, only cold hard facts will work. Have an armamentarium of names of DOs in high places that they are familiar with. Heads of departments in other schools, fellows at certain programs. All these names are out there on the internet. DOs are everywhere. As an example, a fellow student of mine at CCOM did an ambulance ride along. The Paramedics gave her some crap about being a DO student. They were not aware of the fact that their boss (head of Chicago EMS) is a DO. She told them and they shut up about it because they looked pretty silly. This is a too perfect example almost, but the point is most of the people who fall into this category either work with or know of a doc who is a DO but just don't know it.
I truly believe that it all depends on how you carry yourself. If someone asks you where you are going to school, tell them, don't hide any information and don't be ashamed. If you act confidently and don't have a tone of voice that seeks their approval people will either:1) leave it at that, 2)ask you genuinely what osteopathy is. I have also been suprised by coments like "oh my parents doctor was a DO and he was the best doctor I ever had." sounds corny, but it has happened to me twice like that.
Bottom line: don't take any crap.
This is something we will all definately face from now on to probably the larger portion of our career. I think it is very important that we all keep our "cool" and be optimistic at all times. With regard to D.O. and M.D. : Learning about the differences in the philosophies has solidified my views, and I am driven to pursue a D.O. degree even though I have been accepted to an allopathic school. Yes, many people consider an M.D. degree a more prestigious degree but this is only because they are uninformed. Synergy, my advice to you is to realize that it will be best to enjoy explaining the differences to those that are ignorant. Take it as an opportunity to inform those that are unaware of what our soon-to-be profession is all about. After heavily researching allopathic and osteopathic medicine, I came to ask myself the question: Why would I want to be an M.D. rather than a D.O.? After struggling to find an answer I realized that the only reason would be prestige from the uninformed. I personally believe this will change in the future as I believe osteopathic medicine is on the rise. However, it is up to us to make this happen.
Take care man and good luck.
Take care man and good luck.
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I agree. Figure out if the person's opinion is worth your time. Family, close friends, and truly curious and possible pre-meds are worth the time in my opinion. My family was truly confused about it and thought it was some alternative underground stuff. Then one day my dad asked me to interpret some test results on a medical lab form given my his doctor. This doctor was so good that my aunt "converted" everyone in my family and many of our friends to his clinic. Boy were they surprised when I pointed out that their prized doctor and ALL of his partners were DO's. Guess that answered their questions, eh? These things work out with people that matter but honestly if the inquiring mind isn't worth your time then MED SCHOOL is worth the answer. Most don't even care where. The next and last question they ask is, "What do you want to practice, peds, family practice, cardiology?".
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Ponyboy,
IMO, "Utilitarian convenience" is at the heart of the personality ethic. I feel that seeking a quick fix that will only solve the problem for the moment won't help inform the ignorant and will only perpetuate the problem. If someone asked me where I was going to be attending medical school and I said "Florida" with the knowledge that they will most likely misinterpret what I mean and think "University of Florida", I would only have to reexplain myself later when they found out the truth is NSUCOM. They may view me with suspicion in the future. If they had no preconceived notions about the DO degree before then they may now and would think I had something to "hide" about it.
If I didn't have time at the moment to fully explain what a DO was then I would tell people I'd get back to the subject whenever I had time to discuss it with them. I think that anyone that asks me deserves an honest answer no matter who they are and whether their position matters to me. If they still thought I was less than my peers, ...then so be it.
IMO, "Utilitarian convenience" is at the heart of the personality ethic. I feel that seeking a quick fix that will only solve the problem for the moment won't help inform the ignorant and will only perpetuate the problem. If someone asked me where I was going to be attending medical school and I said "Florida" with the knowledge that they will most likely misinterpret what I mean and think "University of Florida", I would only have to reexplain myself later when they found out the truth is NSUCOM. They may view me with suspicion in the future. If they had no preconceived notions about the DO degree before then they may now and would think I had something to "hide" about it.
If I didn't have time at the moment to fully explain what a DO was then I would tell people I'd get back to the subject whenever I had time to discuss it with them. I think that anyone that asks me deserves an honest answer no matter who they are and whether their position matters to me. If they still thought I was less than my peers, ...then so be it.
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Synergy,
Just wait until you come home for vacation and your dad/mom/aunt/girlfriend/whoever has some musculoskeletal pain that won't go away no matter how much Tylenol or Ibuprofen they take. They'll come to appreciate the DO difference. A good way to start off explaining what a DO is is to begin with the phrase, "DO's are the legal and professional equivalents of MD's..." then you can go on and talk about OMT, etc. Starting off that way clears up a lot confusion right away.
[This message has been edited by drusso (edited May 17, 1999).]
Just wait until you come home for vacation and your dad/mom/aunt/girlfriend/whoever has some musculoskeletal pain that won't go away no matter how much Tylenol or Ibuprofen they take. They'll come to appreciate the DO difference. A good way to start off explaining what a DO is is to begin with the phrase, "DO's are the legal and professional equivalents of MD's..." then you can go on and talk about OMT, etc. Starting off that way clears up a lot confusion right away.
[This message has been edited by drusso (edited May 17, 1999).]
D
DOGBOY
Maybe you could work in a lab this summer and figure out a way to grow a backbone. Are we supposed to feel sorry for poor little synergy because he/she is tired of explaining what a DO is? Boo-hoo, Boo-hoo, my heart is bleeding for you. Your problems in life are so difficult and insurmountable that i think you should forget about your medical career and pursue another profession that requires a very thin skin.
It pains me to say this....and I can't believe I am saying this..but I agree with DOGBOY.
My advice, DO NOT go to an osteopathic medical school. You might have to explain what a D.O. is for a lifetime. If you are having a problem with it now, you certainly won't last.
Brandon A, MS4
Western University/COMP
My advice, DO NOT go to an osteopathic medical school. You might have to explain what a D.O. is for a lifetime. If you are having a problem with it now, you certainly won't last.
Brandon A, MS4
Western University/COMP
No thanks DOGBOY and Osteodoc (I am surprised by your hostility), I think I will just become a physician anyway. Osteodoc, you are correct, I do need to have a thicker skin in this situation. DOGBOY, you already have thick skin since you are a hemmorhoid. You're just sore because of my previous comment about you. DOGBOY, get a life, you're the one who shouldn't go to medical school because you don't have any brains, empathy, or compassion. Most of us here agree that you are a worthless to this forum. I knew it was just a matter of time before your ugly doggy doo would show up on this post.
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wow what a load of hot smelly air.
I don't care how committed you are to being a DO, everyone Dr Esper included has feelings of frustrations at one point or another about explaining the DO thing. It is totally natural. In fact in even makes a great deal of sense.
Most of the time I actually enjoy explaining it now. You are sitting in a bookstore studying and some baty old man next to you peers over at your books... It is kinda fun. You make it what you want it to be; some people start right off with the manipulation line, others emphasize the more subtle differences.
I must say at the end of my first year, I am seeing far more similarities between DO and MD than differences. OMT aside, ask yourself what aspect of the osteopathic philosophy isn't practiced by a recent and compassionate MD grad? Sure twenty years ago their were still wholly new concepts in the osteopathic philosopy (tell a internal med MD in the 1970s that there is interaction between the cognitive mind and the female reproductive cycle and I bet well over half of them would have laughed at you).
But this is a whole other discussion.
I don't care how committed you are to being a DO, everyone Dr Esper included has feelings of frustrations at one point or another about explaining the DO thing. It is totally natural. In fact in even makes a great deal of sense.
Most of the time I actually enjoy explaining it now. You are sitting in a bookstore studying and some baty old man next to you peers over at your books... It is kinda fun. You make it what you want it to be; some people start right off with the manipulation line, others emphasize the more subtle differences.
I must say at the end of my first year, I am seeing far more similarities between DO and MD than differences. OMT aside, ask yourself what aspect of the osteopathic philosophy isn't practiced by a recent and compassionate MD grad? Sure twenty years ago their were still wholly new concepts in the osteopathic philosopy (tell a internal med MD in the 1970s that there is interaction between the cognitive mind and the female reproductive cycle and I bet well over half of them would have laughed at you).
But this is a whole other discussion.
Synergy,
I am not hostile, I am just giving a dose of reality.
It never ceases to amaze me how pre-meds get so worked up about "which medical school is best" or "should I go DO or MD" or even better "should I take the USMLE if I am an osteopathic medical student". See, the reality is, unless you plan on getting the Nobel prize, none of it means s**t!
Let's face it, osteopathic physicians are the minority. Plain and simple. Being the minority may lead then to experience some prejudice (just ask any Afican-American or Mexican-American). But, the prejudice you see, if any, is usually from the IGNORANT! The intelligent minority will use wisdom to educate the ignorant. I just finished osteopathic medical school in a state where D.O.'s were once unable to practice. Thanks to a few "minority" physicians who used their wisdom and the court system, that is no longer the case. Through hard work, the D.O.'s have shown that they are equal to M.D.'s and you know what, the vast majority of M.D.'s have absolutely no problem with D.O.'s. In my neck of the woods, many M.D.'s use D.O."s as their own personal physician!
Bottom line is this. If you don't like being asked what a D.O. is, then don't become one. Personally, when someone asks me what a D.O. is, I educate them with a little history, then I SELL myself and the profession to them. That, is using wisdom. Not to mention the fact that it makes great business sense.
I agree that the AOA has its share of problems, as does the AMA. Neither are perfect and neither have anywhere near 100% membership. But, if you don't want to do your share to help change things, then you are part of the problem. I do not think the AOA has all the responsibility of educating the public as to what a D.O. is. The one's who do, just like to whine about everything while blaming someone else. I hate to say it, but many pre-meds and med students fit into this category.
My $0.02 on reality.
Brandon A, MS4
Western University/COMP
I am not hostile, I am just giving a dose of reality.
It never ceases to amaze me how pre-meds get so worked up about "which medical school is best" or "should I go DO or MD" or even better "should I take the USMLE if I am an osteopathic medical student". See, the reality is, unless you plan on getting the Nobel prize, none of it means s**t!
Let's face it, osteopathic physicians are the minority. Plain and simple. Being the minority may lead then to experience some prejudice (just ask any Afican-American or Mexican-American). But, the prejudice you see, if any, is usually from the IGNORANT! The intelligent minority will use wisdom to educate the ignorant. I just finished osteopathic medical school in a state where D.O.'s were once unable to practice. Thanks to a few "minority" physicians who used their wisdom and the court system, that is no longer the case. Through hard work, the D.O.'s have shown that they are equal to M.D.'s and you know what, the vast majority of M.D.'s have absolutely no problem with D.O.'s. In my neck of the woods, many M.D.'s use D.O."s as their own personal physician!
Bottom line is this. If you don't like being asked what a D.O. is, then don't become one. Personally, when someone asks me what a D.O. is, I educate them with a little history, then I SELL myself and the profession to them. That, is using wisdom. Not to mention the fact that it makes great business sense.
I agree that the AOA has its share of problems, as does the AMA. Neither are perfect and neither have anywhere near 100% membership. But, if you don't want to do your share to help change things, then you are part of the problem. I do not think the AOA has all the responsibility of educating the public as to what a D.O. is. The one's who do, just like to whine about everything while blaming someone else. I hate to say it, but many pre-meds and med students fit into this category.
My $0.02 on reality.
Brandon A, MS4
Western University/COMP
Osteodoc,
Thanks for the tough advice. I agree with you 100% about taking responsibility, etc. I won't have the negative attitude about it any longer. I never said that I was not proud to be an osteopathic physician, I am.
Thanks for the tough advice. I agree with you 100% about taking responsibility, etc. I won't have the negative attitude about it any longer. I never said that I was not proud to be an osteopathic physician, I am.
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Synergy,
I am not in the same career path as most of you guys (at least, not yet), but I wanted to respond to your post.
I know how you feel when people give you awkward looks or try to downplay what you are doing. I am not an osteopath but I do work with a lot of people with chronic soft-tissue injury. I also work with a lot of people who are suicidal because of the horrible pain-cycles they are put on because of uneducated MDs. (This is not meant to offend any of you MD students, but you need to hear this, too. Consider it a message from the front lines of the Health Care world.) Typically, in both my jobs--neuromuscular therapist/structural intergrationist and suicide/rape counselor--I see people because most MD's don't understand soft tissue injury.
Here's what happens: Patient usually goes to the ER with a soft-tissue injury. Doctor tells them to ice and compress it, gives them pain killers and muscle relaxants and sends them home. We all know how this one ends up. Anyways, since the injury hasn't really been dealt with only supressed, the body starts trying to achieve some kind of homeostasis over-tightening muscles here, loosening them there, etc. Either the patient gets lucky and their body heals to a level where they can function without noticing a lot of pain or it doesn't and they end up chronic. Worst case and more common than you would think, we just end up with a really messed up patient on an ever increasing amount of painkillers, muscle relaxants and after a while...anti-depressants.
I get them in both jobs after a while from this point on. A lot of people walk through my door because they have used up all their insurance and tried everything they can think of and everything anyone's ever recommended and I am their last ditch attempt. Or a friend of a friend who was beyond help got better, etc. Usually most people get excellent results and can begin to reduce the heavy amounts of meds they're on.
The bad scenerios are the ones that I get at the other job. Guns, pills, razor blades and warm baths, jumpers, etc. You would be suprised how many of them are in the place they are because of what started out as a minor soft-tissue injury and a trip to the ER a few years back. My first question is always "Are you on any meds? What for?" and my second usually ends up being "Oh really, when did you hurt your back, neck, hip, etc." And the sad thing? In my heart, it hurts. Because I know they're in pain and they are sick of pills and garbage and Doctors just writing them a stronger prescription and sending them on their way instead of actually trying to deal with the problem. Most MD's don't deal well with soft-tissue injury. The patients suffer for it. I am sad because I know even if they come down from that ledge or put the gun down they haven't got much of a life to look forward to or a chance at finding someone who cares enough to help them get better. (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but spend some time on your town's "jumper cables"--suicide lines--and see how many times you spot the scenerio.)
I know it must be really hard for all of you guys out there. Trying your best and just because the AMA has had a better PR firm over the years, DOs are considered second-rate doctors. Or not even known to be doctors by many people. To want to help people, to be able to help people, any only be stopped by other peoples ignorance has got to gnaw away at you guys. I can only imagine the frustration you must feel.
I was at a dinner party the other night and one of the guests was a surgeon. At one point in the night, my occupation as a neuromuscular therapist came up. The surgeon smirked. I thought a little about the man I had talked to earlier that week. I had kept him on the phone long enough to get the sheriff's office on their way out there to try and break down his door and stop him. I was trying to buy them time, so we got talking about pain and what it was like to live with it. He had lived with it for a few years and then ended up (after a lengthy kitchen-sink/drug cocktail period) on crack-cocaine. He had called me as he was coming down off of a 2 day binge. He blew his brains out as the sheriff tried to bust down his front door. At the dinner party, I just smiled and changed the subject. What could I have said to this surgeon?
The man that blew his brain out was an MD also.
So, the next time someone looks at you funny when you tell them what you are in school for. Or when you, all of you, look in the mirror and wonder why you keep on putting up with so much ignorance and jingoism. Just remember that old saying "People drink the sand in the mirage because they don't know any better." Then go out and sit on the jumper cables and save a few MDs.
EternalSnake
I am not in the same career path as most of you guys (at least, not yet), but I wanted to respond to your post.
I know how you feel when people give you awkward looks or try to downplay what you are doing. I am not an osteopath but I do work with a lot of people with chronic soft-tissue injury. I also work with a lot of people who are suicidal because of the horrible pain-cycles they are put on because of uneducated MDs. (This is not meant to offend any of you MD students, but you need to hear this, too. Consider it a message from the front lines of the Health Care world.) Typically, in both my jobs--neuromuscular therapist/structural intergrationist and suicide/rape counselor--I see people because most MD's don't understand soft tissue injury.
Here's what happens: Patient usually goes to the ER with a soft-tissue injury. Doctor tells them to ice and compress it, gives them pain killers and muscle relaxants and sends them home. We all know how this one ends up. Anyways, since the injury hasn't really been dealt with only supressed, the body starts trying to achieve some kind of homeostasis over-tightening muscles here, loosening them there, etc. Either the patient gets lucky and their body heals to a level where they can function without noticing a lot of pain or it doesn't and they end up chronic. Worst case and more common than you would think, we just end up with a really messed up patient on an ever increasing amount of painkillers, muscle relaxants and after a while...anti-depressants.
I get them in both jobs after a while from this point on. A lot of people walk through my door because they have used up all their insurance and tried everything they can think of and everything anyone's ever recommended and I am their last ditch attempt. Or a friend of a friend who was beyond help got better, etc. Usually most people get excellent results and can begin to reduce the heavy amounts of meds they're on.
The bad scenerios are the ones that I get at the other job. Guns, pills, razor blades and warm baths, jumpers, etc. You would be suprised how many of them are in the place they are because of what started out as a minor soft-tissue injury and a trip to the ER a few years back. My first question is always "Are you on any meds? What for?" and my second usually ends up being "Oh really, when did you hurt your back, neck, hip, etc." And the sad thing? In my heart, it hurts. Because I know they're in pain and they are sick of pills and garbage and Doctors just writing them a stronger prescription and sending them on their way instead of actually trying to deal with the problem. Most MD's don't deal well with soft-tissue injury. The patients suffer for it. I am sad because I know even if they come down from that ledge or put the gun down they haven't got much of a life to look forward to or a chance at finding someone who cares enough to help them get better. (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but spend some time on your town's "jumper cables"--suicide lines--and see how many times you spot the scenerio.)
I know it must be really hard for all of you guys out there. Trying your best and just because the AMA has had a better PR firm over the years, DOs are considered second-rate doctors. Or not even known to be doctors by many people. To want to help people, to be able to help people, any only be stopped by other peoples ignorance has got to gnaw away at you guys. I can only imagine the frustration you must feel.
I was at a dinner party the other night and one of the guests was a surgeon. At one point in the night, my occupation as a neuromuscular therapist came up. The surgeon smirked. I thought a little about the man I had talked to earlier that week. I had kept him on the phone long enough to get the sheriff's office on their way out there to try and break down his door and stop him. I was trying to buy them time, so we got talking about pain and what it was like to live with it. He had lived with it for a few years and then ended up (after a lengthy kitchen-sink/drug cocktail period) on crack-cocaine. He had called me as he was coming down off of a 2 day binge. He blew his brains out as the sheriff tried to bust down his front door. At the dinner party, I just smiled and changed the subject. What could I have said to this surgeon?
The man that blew his brain out was an MD also.
So, the next time someone looks at you funny when you tell them what you are in school for. Or when you, all of you, look in the mirror and wonder why you keep on putting up with so much ignorance and jingoism. Just remember that old saying "People drink the sand in the mirage because they don't know any better." Then go out and sit on the jumper cables and save a few MDs.
EternalSnake
D
DOGBOY
Call me stupid, which I am sure many of you will, but I am finding it hard to find the connection between the original topic and eternalsnakes story?
I think that what eternalsnake is trying to say is quite obvious: MD's are evil and stupid while anyone else in healthcare is a saint and a genius (especially neuromuscular therapists/structural integrationists and suicide/rape counselors). Thank goodness he pointed that out.
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To what I have read, I believe ES has made a valid argument. Many MDs, besides orthropedic surgeion, just don't understand the myofascia/muscular mechanism.
Also, that db guy will never able to figure this out because he is a MD gonna to be. However, he is right about himself.
[This message has been edited by dragonking (edited May 24, 1999).]
Also, that db guy will never able to figure this out because he is a MD gonna to be. However, he is right about himself.
[This message has been edited by dragonking (edited May 24, 1999).]
Puuleease! ES's story is the archetypal "ironic" story where someone of an exalted position must accept the help or wisdom of someone who is looked down upon. I've heard this type of anecdote a hundred times. There are millions of mutations of this story: a mexico-educated FMG turns out to be the best orthopedic surgeon in the hospital while the valedictorian of Harvard med has just lost his licence because he's a danger to his patient, have you heard that one? How about the PA who spots an outbreak of new strain of influenza or meningitis while the world-famous CDC epidemiologist didn't realize what was going on. How about the third year med student who realizes that the baby has galactosemia but is summarily dismissed by the attending and the residents, who realize that he's right?
These anecdotes serve a purpose: to garner respect for the unrespected and to have a silent victory over the esteemed. These stories are meant to give those in power clay feet and to let others feel superior to them. Why else would one say "Then go out and ... save a few MD's"? In every hierarchy, those below try to get at the ones at the top. In the healthcare pyramid, MD's are at the top. For this reason, MD's are the target of criticism and these anecdotes. However, I have seen more hostility toward MD's from other healthcare professionals than vice versa. MD's gladly accept the help from PA's, NP's and other health professionals. However, these other health professionals insist on their superiority or equality over MD's in some minute aspect of healthcare. They think that because they have special competence in a small area, they are the truly superior health professionals.
IMO, any criticism of an MD should be seen as a criticism of a DO as well. There are so few differences between the two, I hardly think that a DO would act in a different way than an MD. If you were an ER DO and someone came in complaining of soft tissue damage, I'm willing to bet that you would not spend 30-45 minutes performing OMT in order to relieve the pain, simply because you cannot afford to do so. There are other, more pressing cases in the waiting room-- gunshots, OD's, car accidents. If you were a family practice DO, the same situation applies: you cannot afford to do so-- at most, your appointment would be about 20 minutes long-- any longer and you'll be losing money. If you were truly aware of your osteopathic philosophy, you would refer this patient to an OMM specialist and hope that the patient's insurance would cover the costs. That would be the only discernible difference between a DO and an MD but the MD could also direct the patient to physio/massage therapy or to PM & R. Vive le difference? Hmmm.
[This message has been edited by lala (edited May 24, 1999).]
These anecdotes serve a purpose: to garner respect for the unrespected and to have a silent victory over the esteemed. These stories are meant to give those in power clay feet and to let others feel superior to them. Why else would one say "Then go out and ... save a few MD's"? In every hierarchy, those below try to get at the ones at the top. In the healthcare pyramid, MD's are at the top. For this reason, MD's are the target of criticism and these anecdotes. However, I have seen more hostility toward MD's from other healthcare professionals than vice versa. MD's gladly accept the help from PA's, NP's and other health professionals. However, these other health professionals insist on their superiority or equality over MD's in some minute aspect of healthcare. They think that because they have special competence in a small area, they are the truly superior health professionals.
IMO, any criticism of an MD should be seen as a criticism of a DO as well. There are so few differences between the two, I hardly think that a DO would act in a different way than an MD. If you were an ER DO and someone came in complaining of soft tissue damage, I'm willing to bet that you would not spend 30-45 minutes performing OMT in order to relieve the pain, simply because you cannot afford to do so. There are other, more pressing cases in the waiting room-- gunshots, OD's, car accidents. If you were a family practice DO, the same situation applies: you cannot afford to do so-- at most, your appointment would be about 20 minutes long-- any longer and you'll be losing money. If you were truly aware of your osteopathic philosophy, you would refer this patient to an OMM specialist and hope that the patient's insurance would cover the costs. That would be the only discernible difference between a DO and an MD but the MD could also direct the patient to physio/massage therapy or to PM & R. Vive le difference? Hmmm.
[This message has been edited by lala (edited May 24, 1999).]
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Hello all,
Just wanted to reply to the above messages. I don't want to start a flaming war (I think that is what they are called.), but I the last few posts got me thinking about some things.
First, Lala, I am truly sorry if my last post suggest that I thought all MDs were not good people/doctors/etc. That was not my intent at all. However, I do feel that many doctors today are trained very poorly to deal with people or at least there is a serious breakdown in the entire way we conduct medicine in this country.
Everyone has a reason they want to go into the health care field. Mine was my father. As I was finishing up my last few months of undergrad work, I got an email from my mother. My father had been low on energy for a few months and had recently started having stomach pains. The email was simple. "He's got cancer, it's all over his body. They want to run some more tests." I finished college and moved home to help take care of him. The next six months he went from being a 250 lbs, 6'2" hulking giant to a 160 lbs, wheel-chair bound shell of himself. It was one of the hardest periods in my life.
And in that time I learned how broken our medical system was. It's not that any of the doctors who dealt with us were incompetent (He had great insurance) or that they were bad people. It's just that somewhere along they way they had all gotten so specialized in a specific area, that they forgot that area was attached to a whole. Or that that whole was a person.
I don't know how to explain to what it was like. On day there was one doctor, our HMO doc, a pretty good guy. And then the next there were 7 doctors. And we would go from appt. to appt. and doctor after doctor would ask what pills he was on (there was a constantly updating list--about 2 pages long) and then prescribe a few more. At one point, I kid you not, he was taking over 23 medications a day. Not pills, medications, the pill count was up near 40. And after a while my family began to get mad. THis pill caused this side-effect so he got another one to handle that side effect. Everyone was so specialize that no one knew what meds cancelled each other out. Or if they did they didn't take it into account. In a way, it was like, "Oh, it's the big C." and they wiped their hands of it.
Finally, we ended up with someone called a clinician (there were so many medical people in and out of our lives that lost track of who did what after a while). She went through the meds and told to drop about half because they were cancelling each other out. So we did. He was on chemo though at that point.
Finally, someone told us that it didn't look good and we elected to stop the chemo and radiation. I looked at my father. He looked mostly dead already. He decided that he wanted to die with some dignity. So, then we began going to all of the doctors and saying "Which pill can we drop from this list you gave us?" "None" they would say. "Why?" "Well, he needs this to have this and this to have this." "Wait, doc, he's dying remember? You can't save him. Cut the crap. What does he need to not be in pain?" That would stop them fast. "Um, well, just this one and this one." We finally got down to 6 pills and eventually just tossed those out when he went on the morhpine. In the end, he died at home with us. He went peacefully. And we knew we had won. Because he hadn't died surrounded by people who were 'just doing their job'. He died surrounded by the people that loved him.
I don't know if I can convey to any of you what that means. It's like when all you have left is to die, then the way that you do it is the most important thing in your life. He never spent more than one night in the hospital and he never spent it alone, with out one of us sleeping in the chair beside him. He died at home.
What angers me about the medical communtity is the way everyone was so free of responsibility. "I just know my little area of specialization. I can't get in trouble if I don't go out of that area." But how does this effect the other areas? There was something horribly alien in saying "Yes, doctor, but what about quality of life?" and then watching them squirm and say "But we are keeping him alive." To see that they just didn't get it. Why was that? Where did they lose the knowledge that being alive wasn't necessarily always living?
Lala, I never meant to say that doctors were bad people. A really good doctor (the head of Hopsice) finally stepped in and did help us convince the other MDs (and maybe DO's too, at the time I didn't know the difference) that there was a difference in being alive and living.
However, years before this and while this was going on I had been having knee problems. I had seen a number of doctors for it. I had tried and followed faithfully everything they ever prescribed, from exercise, to stretching to muscle relaxants. Everything short of surgery. Then I went to an NMT who fixed my knee problems in 2 sessions. Like a lot of my clients, she was a last ditch effort for me. And I asked myself, "I've seen a pleathora of physcians, why didn't they just say they didn't know how to help me and let me go on about my way?" Maybe its because physcians are trained to always have an answer. To give the patient complete faith in them. "If we don't come off completely confident the patient will lose faith and go somewhere else." Personally, I would have just prefered the honest "I don't know" and then have them list all my options, even modalities that they didn't agree with, but knew some people had gotten help with? Or even some that they didn't buy at all, but said, "Hey, some people try this. I'm not going to sign off on it, but it's out there?" Why didn't any of them get out into the community and get to know their local practioners. Spend a few dollars to find out whether or not they got any results so they could refer their patients on?
That was what made me upset. That there are so many things out there, but it seems like so many are hesistant to look into it. Like there's this iron curtain of silence around them. The patients are the ones that suffer. And not because the information is not out there, but because few go looking for it.
So, no, Lala, I have no beef with doctors. I have a beef with the way they do things. I think the best way to become a health care practioner is to live with pain and disease for a while. How can any of us possibly hope to help those in pain, when we haven't been their ourselves? I can read a book or get a computer to find out about my disease.
It is the human part of the doctor that is missing. And that can be missing in all of us. There are tons of bad NMT's out there. I am one some days myself. The days when you walk in and wish you were somewhere else. When you are slamming clients through and not looking at anything but their charts. We all have those days. It's only when don't notice we are having them that we begin to hurt the people who come to us for help.
ES
Just wanted to reply to the above messages. I don't want to start a flaming war (I think that is what they are called.), but I the last few posts got me thinking about some things.
First, Lala, I am truly sorry if my last post suggest that I thought all MDs were not good people/doctors/etc. That was not my intent at all. However, I do feel that many doctors today are trained very poorly to deal with people or at least there is a serious breakdown in the entire way we conduct medicine in this country.
Everyone has a reason they want to go into the health care field. Mine was my father. As I was finishing up my last few months of undergrad work, I got an email from my mother. My father had been low on energy for a few months and had recently started having stomach pains. The email was simple. "He's got cancer, it's all over his body. They want to run some more tests." I finished college and moved home to help take care of him. The next six months he went from being a 250 lbs, 6'2" hulking giant to a 160 lbs, wheel-chair bound shell of himself. It was one of the hardest periods in my life.
And in that time I learned how broken our medical system was. It's not that any of the doctors who dealt with us were incompetent (He had great insurance) or that they were bad people. It's just that somewhere along they way they had all gotten so specialized in a specific area, that they forgot that area was attached to a whole. Or that that whole was a person.
I don't know how to explain to what it was like. On day there was one doctor, our HMO doc, a pretty good guy. And then the next there were 7 doctors. And we would go from appt. to appt. and doctor after doctor would ask what pills he was on (there was a constantly updating list--about 2 pages long) and then prescribe a few more. At one point, I kid you not, he was taking over 23 medications a day. Not pills, medications, the pill count was up near 40. And after a while my family began to get mad. THis pill caused this side-effect so he got another one to handle that side effect. Everyone was so specialize that no one knew what meds cancelled each other out. Or if they did they didn't take it into account. In a way, it was like, "Oh, it's the big C." and they wiped their hands of it.
Finally, we ended up with someone called a clinician (there were so many medical people in and out of our lives that lost track of who did what after a while). She went through the meds and told to drop about half because they were cancelling each other out. So we did. He was on chemo though at that point.
Finally, someone told us that it didn't look good and we elected to stop the chemo and radiation. I looked at my father. He looked mostly dead already. He decided that he wanted to die with some dignity. So, then we began going to all of the doctors and saying "Which pill can we drop from this list you gave us?" "None" they would say. "Why?" "Well, he needs this to have this and this to have this." "Wait, doc, he's dying remember? You can't save him. Cut the crap. What does he need to not be in pain?" That would stop them fast. "Um, well, just this one and this one." We finally got down to 6 pills and eventually just tossed those out when he went on the morhpine. In the end, he died at home with us. He went peacefully. And we knew we had won. Because he hadn't died surrounded by people who were 'just doing their job'. He died surrounded by the people that loved him.
I don't know if I can convey to any of you what that means. It's like when all you have left is to die, then the way that you do it is the most important thing in your life. He never spent more than one night in the hospital and he never spent it alone, with out one of us sleeping in the chair beside him. He died at home.
What angers me about the medical communtity is the way everyone was so free of responsibility. "I just know my little area of specialization. I can't get in trouble if I don't go out of that area." But how does this effect the other areas? There was something horribly alien in saying "Yes, doctor, but what about quality of life?" and then watching them squirm and say "But we are keeping him alive." To see that they just didn't get it. Why was that? Where did they lose the knowledge that being alive wasn't necessarily always living?
Lala, I never meant to say that doctors were bad people. A really good doctor (the head of Hopsice) finally stepped in and did help us convince the other MDs (and maybe DO's too, at the time I didn't know the difference) that there was a difference in being alive and living.
However, years before this and while this was going on I had been having knee problems. I had seen a number of doctors for it. I had tried and followed faithfully everything they ever prescribed, from exercise, to stretching to muscle relaxants. Everything short of surgery. Then I went to an NMT who fixed my knee problems in 2 sessions. Like a lot of my clients, she was a last ditch effort for me. And I asked myself, "I've seen a pleathora of physcians, why didn't they just say they didn't know how to help me and let me go on about my way?" Maybe its because physcians are trained to always have an answer. To give the patient complete faith in them. "If we don't come off completely confident the patient will lose faith and go somewhere else." Personally, I would have just prefered the honest "I don't know" and then have them list all my options, even modalities that they didn't agree with, but knew some people had gotten help with? Or even some that they didn't buy at all, but said, "Hey, some people try this. I'm not going to sign off on it, but it's out there?" Why didn't any of them get out into the community and get to know their local practioners. Spend a few dollars to find out whether or not they got any results so they could refer their patients on?
That was what made me upset. That there are so many things out there, but it seems like so many are hesistant to look into it. Like there's this iron curtain of silence around them. The patients are the ones that suffer. And not because the information is not out there, but because few go looking for it.
So, no, Lala, I have no beef with doctors. I have a beef with the way they do things. I think the best way to become a health care practioner is to live with pain and disease for a while. How can any of us possibly hope to help those in pain, when we haven't been their ourselves? I can read a book or get a computer to find out about my disease.
It is the human part of the doctor that is missing. And that can be missing in all of us. There are tons of bad NMT's out there. I am one some days myself. The days when you walk in and wish you were somewhere else. When you are slamming clients through and not looking at anything but their charts. We all have those days. It's only when don't notice we are having them that we begin to hurt the people who come to us for help.
ES
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Hello all,
Not wanting to take up any more space here, but I wanted to reply to Dogboy.
DB, I have been reading your other posts here and there on the lists. I was just wondering what made you want to become a doctor? What kind of people do you want to help? Or do you want to be a medical researcher and not an MD?
I guess what I am asking is what drives you to want to take care of people so hard? I mean, you seem to be very concerned with being the best in your class and I can respect that. Did you have an experience like mine? Did you sit and watch someone you love die while you were helpless to do anything about it? Did all of the knowledge in the world not seem to be enough, so now you are on a quest to learn as much as you can and then increase that pool? Maybe to save others who are suffering from the thing that took the one you love from you?
If you are that driven to becoem a doctor you must be down in the trenches every chance you get. Holding the hands of AIDS patients, volunteering at Hospice. Maybe you spend time down in the mental health ward emptying bed pans and helping the nurses so that you can understand just what the people you will someday direct really do.
You must be pretty smart. You got into med school and you are top of your class, no easy feat. So, you must know that being a health care practioner has 50% to do with book learning and 150% to do with people. You must be looking deep inside of yourself, looking, honing your empathy. Knowing full well that without it, your future patients won't feel comfortable to tell you certain things thus making your diagnosis faulty.
Why do you want to help people so hard?
Maybe that is a question that should be being discussed by everyone. Synergy, you said that you didn't like telling people why you were becoming a DO. I think maybe that 'why' could be the most important thing you could say to people. You're actions say "I am going through all of this trouble to get to a place where I can help people." I think to tell people why might give them something more than just what a DO is. It would give them who you are.
So, how about it, you guys are all pre-med students. Going into the health field. Why? What are your stories? Is it the money, the people, the power? Or something else?
ES
Not wanting to take up any more space here, but I wanted to reply to Dogboy.
DB, I have been reading your other posts here and there on the lists. I was just wondering what made you want to become a doctor? What kind of people do you want to help? Or do you want to be a medical researcher and not an MD?
I guess what I am asking is what drives you to want to take care of people so hard? I mean, you seem to be very concerned with being the best in your class and I can respect that. Did you have an experience like mine? Did you sit and watch someone you love die while you were helpless to do anything about it? Did all of the knowledge in the world not seem to be enough, so now you are on a quest to learn as much as you can and then increase that pool? Maybe to save others who are suffering from the thing that took the one you love from you?
If you are that driven to becoem a doctor you must be down in the trenches every chance you get. Holding the hands of AIDS patients, volunteering at Hospice. Maybe you spend time down in the mental health ward emptying bed pans and helping the nurses so that you can understand just what the people you will someday direct really do.
You must be pretty smart. You got into med school and you are top of your class, no easy feat. So, you must know that being a health care practioner has 50% to do with book learning and 150% to do with people. You must be looking deep inside of yourself, looking, honing your empathy. Knowing full well that without it, your future patients won't feel comfortable to tell you certain things thus making your diagnosis faulty.
Why do you want to help people so hard?
Maybe that is a question that should be being discussed by everyone. Synergy, you said that you didn't like telling people why you were becoming a DO. I think maybe that 'why' could be the most important thing you could say to people. You're actions say "I am going through all of this trouble to get to a place where I can help people." I think to tell people why might give them something more than just what a DO is. It would give them who you are.
So, how about it, you guys are all pre-med students. Going into the health field. Why? What are your stories? Is it the money, the people, the power? Or something else?
ES
D
DOGBOY
I didn't even read most of ES posts because of the ridiculous length. Even future doctors have an attention span that once reached all else is irrelevant. The original post was Synergy was tired of explaining what a DO is. ES first post wasn't related to this at all.
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EternalSnake, for what it's worth, you sir, have earned my respect - not for having gone through the trials and tribulations that we call life - but for having risen out of misfortune, still noble at heart and humane in spirit. I wish you luck in whatever endeavor you may undertake in life.
Best regards,
Nathan
Best regards,
Nathan
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ES you have hit many nails on the head.
I think your words ring true with many, though I am sure that many just don't get it.
some are fortunate to have had motivating spiritual experiences like yours. (my point is that your fathers death, while by no means positive in itself, has shown you compassion and motivated you to show it to others-from your families tragedy good comes). You have my respect.
McDonalds medicine is what I call it. Hospitalists etc. Continuity of care, having A physician who has invested interest in you (rather than seven who are detached), and giving your patient the best possible treatment (without the bindings of managed care contracts and defensive medicine policies)-these are all going out the (drive-through) window.
or so it seems.
I also believe that admissions committees are making grave errors in their methods of selection. I see lots of people who in my opinion will make excellent doctors (yes they have the grades too) being rejected in favor of the "perfect" paper student. After that hurdle medical education further attempts to remove the caring aspects of the physician. 36 hour shifts are entirely antithetical to quality patient care and the HEALTH OF THE DOCTOR. As a proffession we are hipocrits; we say to our patients "excercise, don't smoke, don't drink, eat better, get sleep and see your family." Yet we do not follow these fundemental prescriptions ourselves!
This is a digression, but I don't care.
I think your words ring true with many, though I am sure that many just don't get it.
some are fortunate to have had motivating spiritual experiences like yours. (my point is that your fathers death, while by no means positive in itself, has shown you compassion and motivated you to show it to others-from your families tragedy good comes). You have my respect.
McDonalds medicine is what I call it. Hospitalists etc. Continuity of care, having A physician who has invested interest in you (rather than seven who are detached), and giving your patient the best possible treatment (without the bindings of managed care contracts and defensive medicine policies)-these are all going out the (drive-through) window.
or so it seems.
I also believe that admissions committees are making grave errors in their methods of selection. I see lots of people who in my opinion will make excellent doctors (yes they have the grades too) being rejected in favor of the "perfect" paper student. After that hurdle medical education further attempts to remove the caring aspects of the physician. 36 hour shifts are entirely antithetical to quality patient care and the HEALTH OF THE DOCTOR. As a proffession we are hipocrits; we say to our patients "excercise, don't smoke, don't drink, eat better, get sleep and see your family." Yet we do not follow these fundemental prescriptions ourselves!
This is a digression, but I don't care.
D
DOGBOY
ES, I actually do all the above mentioned things each and every day and I do them for free. I am glad I know now that all that 100% crap people have been referencing for the last, who knows how many years, has been incorrect and actually people should have been adding to 200%. Thanks pal, you are my hero. When you get out of the monastery or take off your priestly robe I wish you luck in the real world. Maybe you should also take a reading is fundamental course because if you read more of my posts I only mentioned I wanted to be first in my class as a joke and mentioned it was a joke.
