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They also said that men in bathing suits was unprofessional. It wasn’t just about women. Still stupid though.
OK, kids....thoughts?
Started by Goro
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They also said that men in bathing suits was unprofessional. It wasn’t just about women. Still stupid though.
God this is creepy. These ""authors"" made fake profiles to sleuth out this nonsense? Creepy, absolutely ridiculous this got through the peer review process and was actually published, definitely strong undertones of sexism. If I were in vascular surgery I'd probably think twice before applying to programs these people are affiliated with - if this is the content they put out in public...
This is funny because your talking about bikinis being near the bottom.
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This has to be one of the most pointless studies I have ever come across. No rational person expects doctors to be professional 24/7, as long as you are professional at work and not an a-hole or bigot in your off hours literally no one but a handful of wildly entitled people care.
Not sure how it’s sexist when they were equally calling men and women unprofessional.
I never understood the desire to share your private life with strangers and semi-strangers. I’m not sure anyone cares what you do in your private life, but making your private moments public comes with consequences. Mostly benign but some can hurt you professionally. Everyone has to decide what matters to them and do it.
Can someone pinpoint exactly what was wrong with this study? Did it straight up say something like “women in bikini = unprofessional”
Looked at Twitter for some of these pics. I see 2 types of pics.
One is a pic where a women just happens to be wearing a bikini maybe at some social event or vacation. I think that’s 100% chill
Eg:
two, some outright modeling-esque photo, something that looks like it belongs in a playboy cover. This is unprofessional to me. Id say the same thing about males with these photos, like if they’re flexing into the camera like a d-b**
eg
top left pic!
edit: removed links
One is a pic where a women just happens to be wearing a bikini maybe at some social event or vacation. I think that’s 100% chill
Eg:
two, some outright modeling-esque photo, something that looks like it belongs in a playboy cover. This is unprofessional to me. Id say the same thing about males with these photos, like if they’re flexing into the camera like a d-b**
eg
top left pic!
edit: removed links
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#medbananahammock?
This is the cold hard truth of the matter
I think that either type is alright, and playboy is lot racier than the second type lol. If people want to take those shots, let them.
Even if some 75 year old patient does some digging for fifteen minutes to find that and then becomes offended, I think the medical world will still be okay
Doctors are people first and doctors second. That "study" belongs directly in the trash
US doctors have a position of authority and power here, and have the even greater privilege of making 2-3x what doctors make in other countries. We should strive to maintain our good public image through being on the conservative side.
Yes, post a bikini photo of you at the BBQ (male: yes, post the photo of you at the gym w your shirt on). No, don’t post the scandalous photo of you on the beach in your bikini (male: no, don’t post the pic of you flexing double biceps at the beach).
think about public perception over the long haul. The more unprofessional doctor photos the public sees, the more unprofessional they will perceive us and the more respect they’ll lose for us
or maybe one day they’ll be chanting defund the doctors...
Yes, post a bikini photo of you at the BBQ (male: yes, post the photo of you at the gym w your shirt on). No, don’t post the scandalous photo of you on the beach in your bikini (male: no, don’t post the pic of you flexing double biceps at the beach).
think about public perception over the long haul. The more unprofessional doctor photos the public sees, the more unprofessional they will perceive us and the more respect they’ll lose for us
or maybe one day they’ll be chanting defund the doctors...
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Or just post whatever you want because you’re a human being who happens to be a doctor. As long as you’re okay with the occasional patient not wanting to see you because of your “racy” bikini photo, who gives a ****?
Except that not everyone sees those photos as unprofessional, and if we're being honest most people won't see those photos at all. I think most people understand that how one harmlessly presents themselves online is different from how they present themselves in clinic.
If we're worried about the public perceptions of doctors, perhaps some doctors shouldn't be taking questionable endorsements from alternative medicine. That's partially where the problem lies. But neither of those have much to do with how women, or men, present themselves in a casual environment and I don't think these two things will lead to calls to "defund" doctors.
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My premise is basically:
More “scandalous” photos of men/women doctors floating on the internet = greater risk of being seen as more unprofessional = poorer public perception = bad
For me, I’ll sacrifice a little bit of freedom so that my profession can be viewed professional and respectable
More “scandalous” photos of men/women doctors floating on the internet = greater risk of being seen as more unprofessional = poorer public perception = bad
For me, I’ll sacrifice a little bit of freedom so that my profession can be viewed professional and respectable
And a follow up!
currently.att.yahoo.com
How often do you see a journal apologize???!!!
Me personally, I'd fire the editor who approved that article, and serious reconsider using those reviewers.
A medical journal apologized after an article prompted health professionals to post images of themselves in bikinis
A medical journal is retracting an article that called some social media posts "potentially unprofessional" after outraged doctor flooded Twitter with photos of themselves posing in bikinis and holding alcoholic drinks.
How often do you see a journal apologize???!!!
Me personally, I'd fire the editor who approved that article, and serious reconsider using those reviewers.
Yes we are people, but the further along you realize how far removed from the average person you have become. Racy pictures aside, what about doctors who post about their mansion and lavish vacations readily for public to see on social media?
It’s not uncommon for a doctor or group/hospital to send patient for collections for unpaid bills. If I’m the patient getting these bills and I see my doctor relaxing on the beach in Fiji, I’d be pissed. Doesn’t matter if the billing is out of control of the doc, the perception is that doctors are rich and taking advantage of the little guy. That’s when the calls will be to defund doctors.
Don’t understand why people can’t just click the button to private mode. Why does it matter that you have to share your life with literally everyone on earth?
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I just skimmed the original article. The word bikini is used 1 time:
“Inappropriate attire included pictures in underwear, provocative Halloween costumes, and provocative posing in bikinis/swimwear.”
they:
(1) preconditioned the statement with the word “provocative”
(2) even put “bikini/swimwear”
This is neurotic twitter snowflake culture at its finest. Shows how privilege we (ie Twitter snowflakes) are to get upset by something so trivial
edit- I apologize on behalf of my overly sensitive generation
“Inappropriate attire included pictures in underwear, provocative Halloween costumes, and provocative posing in bikinis/swimwear.”
they:
(1) preconditioned the statement with the word “provocative”
(2) even put “bikini/swimwear”
This is neurotic twitter snowflake culture at its finest. Shows how privilege we (ie Twitter snowflakes) are to get upset by something so trivial
edit- I apologize on behalf of my overly sensitive generation
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You are allowed to post your trips. But do you have to share to the entire world?
Doctors are front line, personal face of the system.
I just hate garbage research.
Why does it matter?
You can absolutely share it with the world if you want, just like anyone else.
And guess what? It still wont have any bearing on how well you practice medicine.
I think the real question is why does it matter to you that you share your life to the public?
I guess you haven’t had the pleasure of the uncomfortable office visit when the angry patient brings the bill and demanding explanation.
Even if it’s the insurance company fault, patients don’t drive to corporate headquarters of the company, they yell at you face to face.
I agree that the humblebragging is distasteful and potentially harmful to the public image of doctors, but that wasn't the angle the original article was taking. Encouraging men, and mainly, women to cover up outside of work in order to be professional is different from critiquing the vanity of online posts. That's what many posters take issue with
can you provide evidence for “mainly, women”?
And there are people that would argue any picture in a bathing suit is provocative. Define provocative.
I like some of these bikini pics. Spicy
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we can theoretically say both men and women shouldn't post "provocative" pics, but in reality women will generally be judged more harshly for the pics under that rule
i'll bet the photos of the women prompted the article's judgment more than the photos of the men
so you have no evidence for the article being against females?
anyway so should we therefore not take any stance against doctors posting provocative pics bc of the risk of females being judged more harshly, which id argue is a false assumption
*gestures broadly at the patriarchy, systemic racism, + the dumpster fire that is 2020*
Where would you like to start?
maybe the article lol?
Are you familiar with the terms "microaggression" and "dogwhistle" in regards to discrimination?
And in any job as well.
Everyone is OK with folks checking Facebook at work, until you need a reason to get rid of someone and then they “catch” you doing it and use it against you.
As for the bikini issue...its nothing new in that pts are using whatever criteria they have in their head to judge us.
Tattoos, piercings, facial hair, no tie, skirt too short...... list goes on and on.
We had a talk on this during residency and I asked how far we should go to appease pts... so if it is OK to have a pt change docs cos of tattoos, can they also change cos of sex, religion or race?
They never got back to me on it 😉
Conversely, post as many as you can/want to drill home the fact that there is no correlation b/w your appearance and your job.
Or.. wait for all the old fuddy duddies to die
I’m still waiting...
Orthopaedic surgeons: as strong as an ox and almost twice as clever? Multicentre prospective comparative study
Objective To compare the intelligence and grip strength of orthopaedic surgeons and anaesthetists. Design Multicentre prospective comparative study. Setting Three UK district general hospitals in 2011. Participants 36 male orthopaedic surgeons and 40 male anaesthetists at consultant or...
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Why anyone has a public profile and/or accepts friend requests from people they don’t know is beyond me.
Truly nobody cares about what you post. At all. That’s the trouble with social media. It literally can only hurt you to put anything out to the world. There are no true positives to outward projecting besides Internet clout (which gets you nothing. “influencers“ are a plague on this planet). Post what you want but keep your stuff private and it’s much less likely to bite you in the butt. It really isn’t that hard.
the study is stupid and the hysteria is also overblown. Not advocating for it at all but cmon people
Truly nobody cares about what you post. At all. That’s the trouble with social media. It literally can only hurt you to put anything out to the world. There are no true positives to outward projecting besides Internet clout (which gets you nothing. “influencers“ are a plague on this planet). Post what you want but keep your stuff private and it’s much less likely to bite you in the butt. It really isn’t that hard.
the study is stupid and the hysteria is also overblown. Not advocating for it at all but cmon people
That’s why all my posts are friends only.
I don't have an explicit source off-hand, and don't really have the energy to find it tbh, but in general the appearance of women and girls is scrutinized more heavily than the appearance of men or boys. For example, how a daughter dresses for school/prom is more important than how a son dresses in the eyes of parents. People will talk about how a girl is dressed provocatively in daily life, the cut of a skirt for example, but this rarely happens for guys' fashion. This holds professionally as well, where women are expected to wear makeup to look professional and professional fashion is generally more difficult for women. Many of these topics have been discussed extensively elsewhere, and I'm not feeling a long search for sources to prove it because it's common sense at this point if you simply ask the women around you
So nah, I don't have a peer-reviewed source to back up my claim, but given the imbalances already seen in daily life, I don't find it unintuitive that female doctor's manner of dress online would be judged more strictly by the authors and that this was a bias that encouraged the retracted research article's claims
D
deleted480308
I don’t care what someone wears in their off hours but are you really comparing “provocative” clothes across genders? There is a difference between the fashion tendencies to lean toward revealing clothing.
So you have nothing but feelings. You from NYC or LA?
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That's a totally separate issue. This is about doctors posting normal things that people do on their Facebook profiles, which I think is fine. I'm absolutely 0% separated from the person I was prior to training, I think letting medicine change you and your lifestyle is a choice. With regard to those people showing off though, there is a counterargument to be made that maybe we should be inspiring kids to go into medicine because they realize they don't have to be a celebrity, rapper, or athlete to have a decent life. If you can do well while doing well for others, that's a good way to live.
I'd very much agree with your last point and recommend people setting their profiles to private though, so only those people close to you can see what is going on in your life regardless.
See the thing is, I'm trying to see how entrenched in your own privilege you are and how far back into the basics I need to go to explain this...
So I guess I'll start at the beginning.
A microaggression is when a somebody (maybe well meaning, maybe not, but definitely with a lot of implicit bias) makes a comment or does something that is discriminatory towards another person.
Examples: people of color, but not white people, being followed around stores by employees; somebody reflexively clutching their purse or crossing the street when a black man is around, somebody refusing to learn how to properly pronounce another person's name, etc, etc.
Dogwhistle is more specifically comments, but the same idea, though frequently done more deliberately.
Examples: "you're so well spoken [implied: for a black person]", stating that someones natural hair isn't professional [i.e. if you don't look like white doctor barbie, then you're not professional], reminding a group of some aspect of professional behavior that 'needs' to be followed [which while addressed to a large group, is really targeted at those the speakers consider unprofessional].
This entire article is a dogwhistle piece aimed at women and people of color, with enough mention of white men thrown in so that other white men think it's a broad statement, when it is in fact deeply racist and misogynist. I'm not going to word search the article for you, you can do that if you want with your own time. But if it doesn't scream discrimination at you, then you're not hearing the dogwhistle, which means you're a white dude with so much privilege that you've never encountered any of these things before. If you would like to not be a part of the problem inherent in that group, then I hope you will take the time to learn what that kind of coded language looks like (i.e. like this paper) so that you can keep from perpetuating these issues.
It's pretty well studied, here's a random article of the literally hundreds on the topic if you want to be spoon fed
The (Female) Graduate: Choice and Consequences of Women’s Clothing - PMC
This research investigates how female students choose their graduation outfit and how clothing affects observers’ judgments. In Study 1, we manipulated the students’ graduation outfit so as to look professional or sexy. Female peers, adults, and ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Gonna be honest I didn’t read the full post haha as soon as I see “the patriarchy” being blamed and “micro aggressions” Being thrown around I tend to get a little bit testy. Appreciate the knockIt's pretty well studied, here's a random article of the literally hundreds on the topic if you want to be spoon fed
The (Female) Graduate: Choice and Consequences of Women’s Clothing - PMC
This research investigates how female students choose their graduation outfit and how clothing affects observers’ judgments. In Study 1, we manipulated the students’ graduation outfit so as to look professional or sexy. Female peers, adults, and ...
I stand correctedOrthopaedic surgeons: as strong as an ox and almost twice as clever? Multicentre prospective comparative study
Objective To compare the intelligence and grip strength of orthopaedic surgeons and anaesthetists. Design Multicentre prospective comparative study. Setting Three UK district general hospitals in 2011. Participants 36 male orthopaedic surgeons and 40 male anaesthetists at consultant or...www.bmj.com
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