Older and Age for Residency Selection

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I have been shadowing surgeons at a major teaching hospital during my Spring Break where I used to work with them in my former career. I am a first year MD Student, married with family, and older. Two surgeons have told me it will be difficult to be selected as a surgical resident being older (over 40).

I wonder how many MD or DO Residents on SDN had their "older" age (over 40) be a factor in matching with a Residency Program be it Surgery or something else. Likewise for a Fellowship Program (Hematology/Oncology, Cardiology, Specialty Surgery, etc).

I welcome the thoughts from MD or DO Residents or Attendings over 40 years of age who had to overcome age discrimination to get accepted into a Residency.

MD or DO Residents/Attendings over 40 only, please.

Thanks

- The Road Less Traveled to MD
http://roadlesstraveledmd.wordpress.com
 
roadlesstravel said:
I have been shadowing surgeons at a major teaching hospital during my Spring Break where I used to work with them in my former career. I am a first year MD Student, married with family, and older. Two surgeons have told me it will be difficult to be selected as a surgical resident being older (over 40).

I wonder how many MD or DO Residents on SDN had their "older" age (over 40) be a factor in matching with a Residency Program be it Surgery or something else. Likewise for a Fellowship Program (Hematology/Oncology, Cardiology, Specialty Surgery, etc).

I welcome the thoughts from MD or DO Residents or Attendings over 40 years of age who had to overcome age discrimination to get accepted into a Residency.

MD or DO Residents/Attendings over 40 only, please.

Thanks

- The Road Less Traveled to MD
http://roadlesstraveledmd.wordpress.com
Click to expand...

I think it varies from place to place. I'm pretty sure there are sdn regulars who have done it (njbmd?).
 
roadlesstravel said:
I have been shadowing surgeons at a major teaching hospital during my Spring Break where I used to work with them in my former career. I am a first year MD Student, married with family, and older. Two surgeons have told me it will be difficult to be selected as a surgical resident being older (over 40).

I wonder how many MD or DO Residents on SDN had their "older" age (over 40) be a factor in matching with a Residency Program be it Surgery or something else. Likewise for a Fellowship Program (Hematology/Oncology, Cardiology, Specialty Surgery, etc).

I welcome the thoughts from MD or DO Residents or Attendings over 40 years of age who had to overcome age discrimination to get accepted into a Residency.

MD or DO Residents/Attendings over 40 only, please.

Thanks

- The Road Less Traveled to MD
http://roadlesstraveledmd.wordpress.com
Click to expand...

It's ALWAYS a factor. And, contrary to what people will tell you, it's ALWAYS more negative than positive. People have a strong natural bias against anyone not going the society approved route. They often aren't even aware of it and will deny it vehemently. Case in point: AAMC requires parent's tax records, no matter what, for MCAT fee waiver. They cannot be reasoned with at all. Parents deceased? They don't care. Parents estranged? They don't care. Parents live on Mars? They don't care. And they will deny that this is bias or discrimination. Someone on here will even likely post some convoluted explanation as to why they think that isn't bias or discrimination.

Still, I've seen, at least in DO residency, someone in their 40s match to gen surg and someone about to turn 40 match to Ob/Gyn. The conventional wisdom says it's easier in the osteopathic world. That might have been true at some time in the past, but it really isn't anymore.
 
I was forty when I started med school. But I am in real good shape and always kept physically active by running marathons. I looked better then some of my younger contemporaries at the interviews. Noone bothered me during the residency interviews about my age. I think in general, age will work against you. But if you show that you takecare of yourself, it will show. It takes a lot of determination to stay physically fit in med school with all the stresses. If I wanted to do gen surg, I seriously doubt my age would have been a factor. I hope that you don't mind hearing from a soon-to-be resident.
 
In Psychiatry, I think older applicants are often welcomed. Life experience and maturity can help you connect with patients in psychiatry more than you might be able to at a younger age. Psychiatry does not require physical labor so many psychiatrists practice to a ripe old age.
In my own psychiatry residency, I know that older applicants are not only welcomed but encouraged and we have had some older residents do very well in the program.
 
It matters but there's nothing you can do about it. I'll be graduating in my early to mid 30s and have been told by faculty it's going to be a factor but as long as I put up the numbers and show I'm productive via publications it should be fine. I'm looking at a surgical subspecialty with a notoriously difficult residency as an fyi. I think it also depends heavily on the programs you're applying to and if the faculty are older. I've certainly overheard a faculty member elsewhere tell an older MD/PhD (40+) that starting a surgical residency at their age wasn't advisable and they should look at medical fields instead.
 
Gen surg does require one to train pretty intensely. OP, if you decide that is what you want to do- make sure you have the physical stamina to get through it and enjoy a decent number of years of a career. Regardless of what others are saying, the question you should ask yourself is- are YOU ready? Also, can your family get through it without you being around much? A guy I know left his family with fourkids and wife to do auditions for gen surg, did not match, landed a spot in scrample. Then moved alone to NJ leaving the wife to sell the house. Now they live in a mouse-infested house somewhere. Their kids are teenagers. His wife does not work. If I were him, I wouldn't do it.
 
Hello, I started Med school age 42, residency age 46 and I am 2 months shy of finishing 🙂
I am a carib grad , and did very well on the steps, applyed only to Family since my plan was to work in urgent care since I believe can have better lifestyle just working 3 days a week. Had many job offer and got a really good one. Age was never an issue, since keep myself in good shape training for triathlons .
I have no doubt you can do the same.
 
No doubt age is a factor in surgical/high intensity specialties but it isn't one that people are going to openly talk about. You CAN do it, especially if you look younger but I have a hard time seeing a grandpa looking fellow too high on the rank list. It is unfortunate but it is what it is.

Survivor DO
 
N=1 but when I rotated through surgery there was a 38 year old from the states and the attendings made comments that translate to:

I don't get why he's here at this age, he probably failed at something else (wtf?!?)

He doesn't have many "good years" left in him

Very stupid and trivial comments, they were in Spanish and the guy didn't hear these (to their credit they didn't say it to his face). I enjoyed rotating with him and he will be a great physician, but unfortunately the stigma of being "old" is usually seen negatively.
 
microscp2 said:
Hello, I started Med school age 42, residency age 46 and I am 2 months shy of finishing 🙂
I am a carib grad , and did very well on the steps, applyed only to Family since my plan was to work in urgent care since I believe can have better lifestyle just working 3 days a week. Had many job offer and got a really good one. Age was never an issue, since keep myself in good shape training for triathlons .
I have no doubt you can do the same.
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👍
My goal is also to stay healthy and fit, not get divorced and provide my child with the best opportunities I can.
 
I graduated medical school at 37 and really looked into general surgery. I have to tell you by that time I was TIRED. After my intern year I still applied to surgery but then realized that I was looking at 2 more yrs for FP or 5 more years of 80+ hour weeks. I just couldn't do it. I was tired of the debt, tired of low paychecks, tired of not having money to do stuff with my kids, etc. It would be really hard to do with a family because you would never be home. My kids were in junior high and I just couldn't see it for myself.
 
I'm a 38 yo gen surg resident. Took 10 years between undergrad and med school. I had a completely unrelated career that I decided to leave. Did I fail (as noted in rompe's post)? I'm sure many will say I did, but I was very satisfied with the outcome of that career, as I was more successful than most who partake in that line of work. As a PGY-2, there does become some disenchantment with the whole "game of surgery". And the hours dont ease up, and the work stays hard. But if you see yourself doing nothing other than operating, its what you need to do.

Personally I'd rather do 5 years of Gen surg, plus fellowship, than 3 years of medicine because I couldn't handle the rounding. Worth it? For many, no. For me...well, the jury is still out on that (its been a rough few weeks).

OP: whether we like it or not, there is age discrimination in medicine, in surgery. I am older than some of my attendings. It takes some getting used to. But it still boils down to they simply have more medical experience than I do. That doesn't make them a better person or more important (well, at least in my eyes). It just means I can learn from them. And, as always with surgery, develop a thick skin. Good luck.
 
wagy27 said:
I certainly respect those that find their calling later in life but at some point you have to question the utility. If you come out of med school in your 40s and then do a 5 year residency, even if you practice until 70 (tough but not impossible in surgical fields), thats only 25 years of practice. Compare that with someone who takes the traditional route, who finishes training around 32-35 and can practice 30 years before age 65. With so many applicants for med school it seems that this should be taken into consideration more particularly in light of perceived shortages. Im sure there are going to be replies about young doctors that burn out and practice only a few years but the reality is that on average the younger docs will practice far longer than these older grads.
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I see discriminating like that similar to the argument against women in medical school. They are all going to get pregnant and quit or go part time within hours of finishing residency so why let them in medical school. I see a lot of age discrimination, especially in the surgical fields.
 
People's anecdotal experiences aside, Surgery is not a profession that you can keep going in until advanced years. You start late and then finish early compared to many other physicians. A Dermatologist or a Psychiatrist can work until they're 80 if they want. So if a surgeon comes out of residency at the age of 50, how many practicing years will they really have?

There's another issue of people frequently dropping out of tough residencies, especially General Surgery. Again, the facts are that non-traditionals are more likely to do this, due to family, age, or whatever else. Instead of just always looking at things from your own perspective, try to look at it from the program's perspective. Do they want to take that chance on you, when they don't have to?

With the residency selection process having been brutal this year, people need to take a long hard look at, "why would they select me?" (instead of listening to the usual BS of "follow your heart" that's repeated on these forums) and be very honest about what they can get into.
 
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wagy27 said:
I respectfully disagree; there is no way tot determine if women are going to go part time, get pregnant, etc. these are choices. You can't choose to stop aging. We have a finite number of spots available particularly in long length residencies; its not as though I am advocating for inferior quality, med schools and residencies have ample choice in terms of quality for surgery residncies or other long length residencies. I have worked with a lot of older physicians who started later; as a whole they are more motivated and well rounded physicians than their younger counterparts and many work later into life than those that started younger (some of this is financial and some motivation). that being said, i certainly don't have data to support this but my experience has been that even with working longer, they don't practice anywhere near as many years (10 less has been what i have seen) overall. Should we be handing out a commodity to someone who is going to use it far less than a younger applicant on average? I dont think there is a right answer, but I think that it should certainly be part of the discussion.
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Your original point was about medical school and keeping older applicants from taking spots that a younger person could have. That feels different than discriminating at the level of residency. Residencies can choose who they want. If neurosurgery doesnt want a 41 year old intern that's up to them. At the med school level there are a lot of possiblities that aren't as age restricted.
 
I understand the point, but I disagree more on principle than practicle reasons. The deck is already stacked against these older applicants. I don't think the schools should be able to overtly discriminate based on age. It would be easy to expand to discriminate on other factors that may limit work length
 
Although I was not over 40 when I went through the match for general surgery 13 years ago, I was older than most medical school applicants.

Only one program brought up my age and it happened to be the place where I matched; perhaps its because I look young for my age or because I don't perceive it being an issue until after age 40 or so.

The issue of concern for me would not be the ability to survive during residency or the length of time worked but rather it would be the physical nature of the work as a surgeon. I'm in good shape, active with a normal BMI but I'm sore everyday and I've only been in practice for a few years. Perhaps its non-work related but since my pain is almost all in my hands, I suspect that it isn't. ALL of my colleagues have something that hurts them - feet, back, hands, shoulders/neck etc. This gets worse as you get older, given natural age related changes and years of repetitive strain.

TBH, it surprised me. After all, during residency I stayed up for hours on end, just like my younger colleagues and didn't seem any "older" than them, even though by my Chief year I was older than a few of the junior attendings.
 
"ALL of my colleagues have something that hurts them - feet, back, hands, shoulders/neck etc. This gets worse as you get older, given natural age related changes and years of repetitive strain. "

This is why the attendings are telling you age is a problem. Some of this is called common sense. When I applied for residencies, I wanted to apply EM. But I was unsure if my interest will hold long term given the nature of work you do in the ER. I am doing FM because I want to keep working for a long time. I may subapecialize but that will be nothing like surgery.
 
Wow. So many encouraging responses.
One response, however, from an Attending on this thread, was the typical social engineering "I want to play God" mindset . Michael Debakey practiced surgery till he was 98. Johnathan Winters (the comedian) just died at age 78. The list is endless.

It is unfortunate but age discrimination is accepted (yet illegal) in medicine.

The whole "medial doctor shortage" argument is such garbage. If a person practices medicine for just one year, and he/she only impacted one person, including themselves, who is to say it was a waste of time?
What is the social standard that states one has to impact so many patients for so many years in order to be worthy? Dangerous stuff. Slippery slope. Angels dare not tread there. Those smug attitudes need to be retired along w/ their bitter owners...pronto.

White old men have ruled the world for centuries, and they never relinquished control joyfully.
Thankfully the times are a changing. If the Vatican can install a Jesuit, Argentine as a Pope, then a physically fit, able, motivated Resident can have as much impact on medicine than a 45 year Attending Physician who is a chain smoking, alcohol drinking, morbidly obese doc who lives off of stimulants. Perhaps I understate.

As to aches and pains as you age, that has everything to do with fitness, not age.
People who age and train in the gym to keep up their muscular tone, mass/volume and stamina are far better fit animals than morbidly obese 40 something year olds who live off of statins, ACE Inhibitors, Metformin and every conceivable stimulant to get them through the day.

Age discrimination is illegal and it should be called out in a court of law....

My thanks to all of your encouraging responses. Much appreciated.
 
It's hard to say in what level of seriousness Debakey was practicing in his 90's. A lot of famous physicians never retire and are retained at academic medical centers as "Emeritus" types, doing a bit of clinical work here and there.

More typical of what I've seen is a surgeon in his 50's who can't stand for the entirety of a surgery, gets dizzy or whatever, and has to sit down, leaving the resident to finish. These guys then sit there with a depressed look, probably pondering how much longer they can keep going at it. That's a much more typical story than surgeons operating in their 90's.

Also, in my anecdotal experience, I really don't know how much physical fitness correlates with on the job fitness. I've known a lot of hardcore ex-jock, ex-millitary, powerlifter, marathon runner, mountain biker types who talk big about how they're always on the go, never sit down, and are superior physically to the rest of us. But the same folks always disappoint when it comes to on the job fitness, whining about too many admits on call, trying to sneak out of clinic early, getting sick, calling in sick, etc.
 
wagy27 said:
FYI...Debakey finished med school at the young age of 24.
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So let's take your anecdotal data and extrapolate a bit, shall we, just for ****s and giggles.

Lets suppose you are 4'9" (short), which means you wont practice medicine very long because you wont be able to handle the criticisms of being, um, a midget. Who let you into medical school? What were they thinking?!?! What a travesty.
Or perhaps you are 7'1" which makes you tall, which means you will probably be a burden to the medical establishment because you will have frequent back pain, miss work and be on pain killers - a surgeon whom I encountered two weeks ago had this predicament. Who in their right mind accepted you into a medical residency program? You must have slipped through the cracks because clearly accepting people into programs with these "deficits" is a detriment to the "physician shortage" on which you base your pontification.

Or perhaps you are a member of a minority which everyone knows mean you will be at a "disadvantage" because you are a lesser being. Dr. Ben Carson is an exception but he was recently made to be a fool for his narrow minded, (bigoted) views of people. Imagine that.

And if you are a female, well hell, you might as well get back in the kitchen, be barefoot and pregnant where you belong because everyone knows women have no business being in the work place.

Yours is a scary......repeat......scary social engineering. Your throwing in that Debakey went to medical school at the age of 24 reveals......what? do you have some data to make that revelation astounding for a paradigm shift? Debakey inherited nothing from medical school to allow him to live until the age of 99. If anything his example clearly falls in the face of your social engineering. Hell if that were the case, physicians wouldnt be having MIs and dying left and right due to quality of life issues.. Physicians in their 40s on SSRIs, Statins, Niacin, anti-HTN meds, diabetic meds, smokers, alcoholics and obese, following your exclusionary methods, should have never been allowed into the profession! ....so with your reasoning, clearly these people are cutting into the shortage of physicians in the world.

Dude (or Dudette), you are scary. The downside about the internet is that anybody can post anything without reprisal. If you had the courage of your conviction, you'd provide your name, institutional setting, and, for good measure due to your arrogance, write a letter to your local newspapers espousing your "informed" opinion.

I know quite a few attorneys who would be all over your white ass in a heartbeat because discriminating one population leads to justification of discriminating of others for other flippant reasons. And there is just no justification for that.

You are not God
No one put you in charge
And frankly, God is not impressed with your age criteria given His track record of Prophets speaking well into their elder age who rocked the world. Where would Abraham and Noah be if you had been in charge? shudder the thought.

You're not the first physician who whispers discriminatory practices in the darkness behind their masks in quiet hallways. You wont' be the last.
 
While DeBakey was still a presence at age 98, he was not actively operating. He stopped regularly operating in his early 80s; I had the pleasure of seeing him present a Grand Rounds at TMC in his early 90s. At any rate, whether he stopped at 82, 92 or 98, he was clearly the exception, not the rule.

I will temper my indignity at your implication that because I and my colleagues have aches and pains after a day in the OR, it must mean we are fat, out of shape slobs. Nothing could be further from the truth (and BTW, my identity is well known and there is even a recent full body picture of me on my profile in case you doubt my claims).

The fact of the matter is that with age comes changes even for the most physically fit, even if you don't wish to accept that. Ask any anesthesiologist about physical reserves in the elderly. They just don't match up to younger patients regardless of how "good they are for <their> age". All of my patients today were over the age of 85 and even though we were doing low risk cases, their advanced age makes it riskier for even the hardiest octogenarian.

Ask any runner how much harder it is to recover from those runs when compared to when he/she was a decade younger. Or the yoga enthusiast trying a new position. Or the long distance ocean swimmer trying to beat the times of their youth. Shall I go on?

So you see, its not just "me" telling you that the physical demands of a surgical career (although I might take issue with Paddington's experience of a "surgeon in his 50s, who can't stand for a whole case, gets dizzy..." as pretty atypical) are a reality and that age related changes do exist. Even people who meet your criteria for physical standards will agree with me. Certainly maintaining fitness - mental and physical - will allow one to work longer but to deny age related changes as a function of physiology is farcical.
 
roadlesstravel said:
You are not God
No one put you in charge
And frankly, God is not impressed with your age criteria given His track record of Prophets speaking well into their elder age who rocked the world. Where would Abraham and Noah be if you had been in charge? shudder the thought.
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And...you just compared yourself to Abraham and Noah...and we all stopped paying attention because you cray cray.
 
I matched into General Surgery at 42. BUT... I wound up going from enjoying the OR a lot to hating it. Well, not hating the OR exactly... but I hated the responsibility of being primary surgeon. And I hated doing lap cases. It was horrible and painful and I struggled with it.

I just tried to match into FM to retrain. Unsuccessfully. Still don't understand how I got more interviews than I could handle for GS but only a handful for FM.

Bottom line- if you are a strong candidate in medical school and apply to programs that are a good fit, you'll probably match. Being "older" isn't as uncommon as you may think.
 
roadlesstravel said:
So let's take your anecdotal data and extrapolate a bit, shall we, just for ****s and giggles.

Lets suppose you are 4'9" (short), which means you wont practice medicine very long because you wont be able to handle the criticisms of being, um, a midget. Who let you into medical school? What were they thinking?!?! What a travesty.
Or perhaps you are 7'1" which makes you tall, which means you will probably be a burden to the medical establishment because you will have frequent back pain, miss work and be on pain killers - a surgeon whom I encountered two weeks ago had this predicament. Who in their right mind accepted you into a medical residency program? You must have slipped through the cracks because clearly accepting people into programs with these "deficits" is a detriment to the "physician shortage" on which you base your pontification.

Or perhaps you are a member of a minority which everyone knows mean you will be at a "disadvantage" because you are a lesser being. Dr. Ben Carson is an exception but he was recently made to be a fool for his narrow minded, (bigoted) views of people. Imagine that.

And if you are a female, well hell, you might as well get back in the kitchen, be barefoot and pregnant where you belong because everyone knows women have no business being in the work place.

Yours is a scary......repeat......scary social engineering. Your throwing in that Debakey went to medical school at the age of 24 reveals......what? do you have some data to make that revelation astounding for a paradigm shift? Debakey inherited nothing from medical school to allow him to live until the age of 99. If anything his example clearly falls in the face of your social engineering. Hell if that were the case, physicians wouldnt be having MIs and dying left and right due to quality of life issues.. Physicians in their 40s on SSRIs, Statins, Niacin, anti-HTN meds, diabetic meds, smokers, alcoholics and obese, following your exclusionary methods, should have never been allowed into the profession! ....so with your reasoning, clearly these people are cutting into the shortage of physicians in the world.

Dude (or Dudette), you are scary. The downside about the internet is that anybody can post anything without reprisal. If you had the courage of your conviction, you'd provide your name, institutional setting, and, for good measure due to your arrogance, write a letter to your local newspapers espousing your "informed" opinion.

I know quite a few attorneys who would be all over your white ass in a heartbeat because discriminating one population leads to justification of discriminating of others for other flippant reasons. And there is just no justification for that.

You are not God
No one put you in charge
And frankly, God is not impressed with your age criteria given His track record of Prophets speaking well into their elder age who rocked the world. Where would Abraham and Noah be if you had been in charge? shudder the thought.

You're not the first physician who whispers discriminatory practices in the darkness behind their masks in quiet hallways. You wont' be the last.
Click to expand...

Wait, what? Not only is this actually bordering on completely insane (Abraham and Noah, seriously??), but it's just plain wrong.

This to me is like arguing that you shouldn't consider social competency in admissions to med school. After all, bless those applicants, it's not their fault they're on the autism spectrum. Isn't that sort of a form of disability? Shouldn't we be protecting their rights? So what if they literally cannot communicate with people. So what if evidence shows those are the physicians who are significantly more likely to get sued, to cost their hospitals extra money to defend them, and to go into oversaturated fields like path and radiology instead of primary care? Of course I'm exaggerating, but come on man. Admissions are based on...whatever the admissions people see fit, with the ultimate goal of serving the American people in need of healthcare. We encourage diversity because we know patients are more likely to trust doctors of their own race- that's "social engineering", and arguably a lot more controversial than wondering if a 40+ year old should be encouraged to go into a field that takes >5 years of training- especially when all the attendings you specifically asked for advice are telling you that the shelf life of most surgeons, from a clinical perspective, is inherently shorter than some of the more "armchair" specialties. You asked, people have answered. For what it's worth, I've seen a couple of >60yo surgeons, but they have young guys in their practice to take the long and laborious cases over because they just don't do those anymore. The vascular guys apparently get bad arthritis in their hands due to the fine, detail-oriented work with their hands. No one is lying to you, this is just what we see around us. You may take this to heart or not, but whether you believe residencies should take age into account just as they take into account gender (whether they say they do or not- they do) etc, there obviously is a good reason for them to.
 
If they're willing to share, I'm curious what the attendings here think the maximum age of completion, rather than start, should be for a surgical residency? There are a number of surgeons (peds surg, CT surg etc) who do 9 years of residency and hence don't complete training till 34/35 even if they are traditional students. For the handful that did an MD/PhD, add another 3-4 yrs on top of that. So at what point does it become unrealistic, in your opinion, to pursue a surgical residency?
 
wagy27 said:
FYI...Debakey finished med school at the young age of 24.
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I think he also finished college early, like in two years. Check me on that, though.
Also his mother taught him to sew.
And he was just, well.....talented 😎
 
He had some pretty interesting posts on the Nontrad forum too, and again your opinion didn't count unless you were > 40.
 
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wagy27 said:
Principle is great, but practicality rules the day and pocketbook. The deck is stacked against applicants that ore older for the reasons highlighted above; that being said older applicants that did an MD/PhD dont face the same discrimination because they are older due to a continuous education as a basic scientist. You suggest that its wrong to discriminate against age yet med schools actively discriminate by race (look at the URM stats, but lets not open that can of worms) under the principle of "diversity".
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Why do many bring up the URM stats? I know that a good percentage of URM have average or less gpa and MCAT scores; still, a higher absolute number of non URMs enter medical school with the same scores and no one seems to be bothered by that.
 
Winged Scapula said:
I will temper my indignity at your implication that because I and my colleagues have aches and pains after a day in the OR, it must mean we are fat, out of shape slobs. Nothing could be further from the truth (and BTW, my identity is well known and there is even a recent full body picture of me on my profile in case you doubt my claims).
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Had to check it out. Cougariffic is an understatement. 😍
 
roadlesstravel said:
MD or DO Residents/Attendings over 40 only, please.

[/URL]
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From this incredibly arrogant line in the very first post, I got a pretty good idea of what this guy was about. And the thread played out exactly like I expected. He needs to learn some humility. On the other hand, maybe he would be hired on the spot if he walked into his surgery residency interviews and started bossing everyone around and had a total metldown.
 
thefritz said:
From this incredibly arrogant line in the very first post, I got a pretty good idea of what this guy was about. And the thread played out exactly like I expected. He needs to learn some humility. On the other hand, maybe he would be hired on the spot if he walked into his surgery residency interviews and started bossing everyone around and had a total metldown.
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Nope.

Surgeons may be arrogant and prize confidence but its despised in medical students and junior residents. Ya gotta learn the hierarchy.
 
i think surgeons, old and new should starting using these
bombo_bar_stool.jpg


😀

edit: did a bit of research, come up with this http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=520118
 
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Theres a federal law called the equal employment opportunity act that besides sex, religion, disability, ther is age that this likely violates if they said that. It applies to educational based employment programs as well.

Physical age is different than chronological, i know plenty of 28 year olds who are worse off than 40 year olds.
 
I read through this thread and the arguments got rather ludicrous on both sides. If I may be so bold as to interject here another point of view: I myself will start medical school later in life and in no way do I dream that age is not going to be a factor. In fact, I cannot even say that age must never be a factor - for some persons, even 30 might be too old. I am not the judge of that and nor is it particularly important. However, what I wanted to say is this - as a non-traditional future doctor, I have dedicated years of my life to bench research that has enabled me to understand my field of interest down to the molecular level (yes, without PhD). For years I have delayed my medical school application because I was too busy learning, discovering, and publishing. So now, now that I feel satisfied with my knowledge, now that I have dedicating years and countless hours of my life to science and am ready to move on to the world of medicine where my goal was always to finally be able to translate all of my knowledge and experience into important discoveries, do you believe that someone like me has the smallest care about what a 28 year old surgical resident might think of my age? Or do you think that if anyone dared to question my age in a disrespectful manner that I would not easily quash any such motions with an unambiguous, if not seemingly condescending answer?

You know, in all the responses to this thread I was hard pressed to find any substantive discussion about the most important aspect of a physician: quality. Most are quick to state that age discrimination is real, but what an obvious statement that is and at the same time, what a misguided statement when quality is left out of the discussion. I believe that what I described above about myself is not very unique. Many non-traditional students do have very important, non-quantifiable qualities that they would bring to the world of medicine and it is a tragic misjudgment by attendings and others who quantify an applicant rather than qualify him or her. I am not saying disregard age, but if you are judging someone based on “number of years left to practice,” you are missing the forest for the trees. We are talking about human lives here, and even more importantly, we’re talking about science. Isn’t it obvious that an experienced physician who can make a significant advancement in the field which could affect numerous patients is a more “worthy” professional even if he or she practices only 5 years compared to someone you can practice 50? Of course, not every non-traditional student is going to bring something major to the field, but the point made here is that you look at the person first and not the age. Ask what qualities and experiences the person has, before asking for the age. The logic here is incomprehensible, especially for intelligent professionals.

As an addendum, I am in a position at my institution (a medical school) where I have come in contact with many medical students, residents, and doctors over the years, some of whom have worked under my supervision. I will not go into a protracted discussion here, but my experience has taught me that the majority of doctors and future doctors must have never been accepted and should not be doctors. I, and some of my colleagues, are honestly abhorred that those individuals will one day be treating human beings or are treating them already. Medicine is a science and a doctor must be a scientist first. If you don’t understand statistics, if you don’t regularly read or can’t understand scientific publications, you should not be a doctor. So for ****’s sake, please leave all this irrelevant discussion about age and address the real issue if you’re really concerned about the so called “returns” in medicine. And please understand that the fact that you were able to finish medical school at 24 says nothing about your qualities as a doctor or your scientific mind. In fact, statistically speaking, a certain, not so small percentage of future/current doctors contributing to this very thread are likely in a camp where they should have never been accepted into this field, despite their starry eyed ambitions at the age of 23.57.


P.S.: I didn’t even mention the possibility of real adversity some people face that delays their applications. There are those who frown upon this too. But here too, it is completely ok. I believe that any non-trad who has a one track mind and knows what he or she wants to do in life, will not spend too much of his or her precious time reading opinions from unknown users and certainly not make a decision based on that. If you are possessed by a goal, then go and do it. If you will not, based on a thread, then it was good that you read it. Like it or not, the people who posted here are/will be our colleagues and therefore age discrimination is real for certain people. Ok, and?
 
Friend murum, you have a lot of surprises in store for you, and you may not like them much.

I'm a PhD-to-MD. Have both an MS and a PhD in chemistry, a "hard science." Started med school at age 31. Got through the first two years of basic sciences, took the first step of the boards, and went on to clinical rotations. Was just floored by how utterly unscientific most of what we do in medicine is. Continued to be equally floored by this as a resident, and now as an attending as well--if anything, even more so because I'm now that much more aware of the economic basis of many of our practices.

Let me tell you something I wish I had known at your stage: medicine ain't science. It's loosely based on science, but all those people insisting on calling it an "art" is not an accident. If you want to do science, then keep on doing science. Because if you become a clinician, you won't be doing science. We make so many, maybe even most, treatment decisions based at least in part upon anecdotal experience, personal preference, financial considerations, and expert opinion. If you can't accept that, then this isn't the right career for you.
 
Winged Scapula said:
I will temper my indignity at your implication that because I and my colleagues have aches and pains after a day in the OR, it must mean we are fat, out of shape slobs. Nothing could be further from the truth (and BTW, my identity is well known and there is even a recent full body picture of me on my profile in case you doubt my claims).
Click to expand...
And where is this pic? 😀
 
QofQuimica said:
Friend murum, you have a lot of surprises in store for you, and you may not like them much.

I'm a PhD-to-MD. Have both an MS and a PhD in chemistry, a "hard science." Started med school at age 31. Got through the first two years of basic sciences, took the first step of the boards, and went on to clinical rotations. Was just floored by how utterly unscientific most of what we do in medicine is. Continued to be equally floored by this as a resident, and now as an attending as well--if anything, even more so because I'm now that much more aware of the economic basis of many of our practices.

Let me tell you something I wish I had known at your stage: medicine ain't science. It's loosely based on science, but all those people insisting on calling it an "art" is not an accident. If you want to do science, then keep on doing science. Because if you become a clinician, you won't be doing science. We make so many, maybe even most, treatment decisions based at least in part upon anecdotal experience, personal preference, financial considerations, and expert opinion. If you can't accept that, then this isn't the right career for you.
Click to expand...

Greetings, Ms. Q! First, congratulations on becoming a doctor. I know your story and am glad that you are a doctor now.

I think we're pretty much in agreement. Unless I misunderstood your post, I believe that you too were/are very surprised, and surprised negatively, by the lack of science in medicine. Given the nature of my work, and my friends in the medical field, I have already seen a lot and know what medicine is today. Could I be even more surprised later? I guess it's possible. However, just because the majority of medicine is not scientific, that is not a reason for me not to pursue it. It's actually the opposite. I have met several intelligent doctors who are very active in research and either balance it with their practice or concentrate on research almost exclusively. The point is that to be able to do meaningful, translational research, you either need to be an MD or have an MD on your team. I prefer the former.

Of course, I do not preclude that some of medicine must be practiced based on anecdotal evidence due to various limitations, such as the financial constraints you mentioned. That's ok. But what's not ok is the blatant ignorance of scientific findings that could be staring some doctors in the face if only they ever put their face in front of something simple as PubMed. It's even worse than this, for I know a few cases where the doctor on purpose refused to follow scientifically proven diagnosis which resulted in a death of a pregnant woman and her unborn child. The scientifically-minded resident whose "opinion" was disregarded (it was her patient) was so shook up that she left the residency and instead was accepted at her alma mater as a resident when they found out what had happened to her. The "doctor" was diagnosing these patients via email and sometimes only first year residents got to see the patients. A well-known university at that.

I know that it's possible that long years of medical training might have broken your scientific resolve. Who knows, maybe they will break mine too even though I tend not to think so. But I hope that at least you still agree that no matter what medicine is today, it should be something else and it's not me or you who don't belong in this field, but many of those who became doctors as a result of perfectly fulfilled checkmarks, no matter what their age. And this is why it makes little sense to hear an attending or anyone else qualify a doctor first based on number of years left to practice, as if you're buying a bag of potatoes and the value depends on the weight. It's the cookie-cutter education that foments cookie-cutter doctors who then think quantity rather than quality.
 
DermViser said:
And where is this pic? 😀
Click to expand...
LOL... when SDN used Vbulletin, I had a picture of me doing yoga on a beach in Southeast Asia. I don't think there's a way to do that on your profile now.

So here it is just for you. ATTACH=full]185358[/ATTACH]
 

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Winged Scapula said:
LOL... when SDN used Vbulletin, I had a picture of me doing yoga on a beach in Southeast Asia. I don't think there's a way to do that on your profile now.

So here it is just for you. ATTACH=full]185358[/ATTACH]
Click to expand...
You're getting a little bit of a Cushingoid body habitus there. Not exactly rebutting the "I and my colleagues have aches and pains after a day in the OR, it must mean we are fat, out of shape slobs." LOL.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Thank you for not mentioning all my body hair as well.
Click to expand...
Wow. The puns and inappropriate comments I could make regarding the picture of that overly hairy "cat" and societal trends in body hair grooming. Lol. I'll just have to leave it alone. This is a family forum, after all. So tempting, though.



PS-By the way, was that picture illegally stolen from your phone in the celebrity hacking scandal. Imagine the embarrassment. Lol
 
QofQuimica said:
Friend murum, you have a lot of surprises in store for you, and you may not like them much.

I'm a PhD-to-MD. Have both an MS and a PhD in chemistry, a "hard science." Started med school at age 31. Got through the first two years of basic sciences, took the first step of the boards, and went on to clinical rotations. Was just floored by how utterly unscientific most of what we do in medicine is. Continued to be equally floored by this as a resident, and now as an attending as well--if anything, even more so because I'm now that much more aware of the economic basis of many of our practices.

Let me tell you something I wish I had known at your stage: medicine ain't science. It's loosely based on science, but all those people insisting on calling it an "art" is not an accident. If you want to do science, then keep on doing science. Because if you become a clinician, you won't be doing science. We make so many, maybe even most, treatment decisions based at least in part upon anecdotal experience, personal preference, financial considerations, and expert opinion. If you can't accept that, then this isn't the right career for you.
Click to expand...

This is definitely my favorite SDN post of the month. Thank you for this. It should be required reading for all students. EBM has been trying to influence the "way we do it" for a generation now and is still just "another opinion" to most people
 
DermViser said:
You're getting a little bit of a Cushingoid body habitus there. Not exactly rebutting the "I and my colleagues have aches and pains after a day in the OR, it must mean we are fat, out of shape slobs." LOL.
Click to expand...
You know you should never comment about a woman's weight.
 
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