OMFS 6 year Program IMPORTANT info

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Masterus

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I've organized a few charts here to compare schools for people applying this cycle. This is some general information on programs. The costs are rough estimates of the cost of living with the current 2019-2020 med school tuitions. As you can see programs in the northeast/west coast are EXTREMELY expensive. There are generally more months on service in the southeast and midwestern programs and less medical school time. Med school rankings are also listed. The highly ranked med schools also tend to be the more expensive programs. If you're looking at med school ranking, I thought it was more important to rerank the med schools to the ones that actually have OMFS programs.

Programs with moonlighting lead to a ton of money generated so keep that in mind.

MONTHS ON SERVICE
ProgramMonths OMFS
LSU Shreveport45
Rutgers44
Alabama (UAB)40
Louisville40
LSU New Orleans40
UIC38
Nebraska38
UNC38
Oregon (OHSU)36
UF Jacksonville36
Mayo35
Uconn35
UT Southwestern34
BU33
NYU33
Pitt33
Case Western32
Maryland32
Penn32
Michigan32
Vanderbilt32
Columbia31
MGH31
Long Island Jewish30
Jacobi30
Mt Sinai30
Kings County30
Thomas Jefferson30
Drexel30
Buffalo30
Rochester30
St. John30
Detroit Receiving30
UMKC30
Kentucky30
Emory30
UT Houston30
UT San Antonio30
UF Gainesville30
Baylor (Texas A&M)30
UT Knoxville30
UCLA30
UCSF30
Loma Linda30
Washington30
USC30

Time spent in med school
ProgramMonths Med
Case Western12
LSU Shreveport13
Rutgers18
Nebraska18
UIC18
Louisville18
Alabama (UAB)18
LSU New Orleans18
UNC18
Oregon (OHSU)20
MGH20
Uconn21
Maryland24
Penn24
Mt Sinai24
Columbia24
Kings County24
Thomas Jefferson24
Buffalo24
St. John24
Detroit Receiving24
Mayo24
UMKC24
Kentucky24
Emory24
UCLA24
Loma Linda24
Washington24
UF Jacksonville26
NYU28
Long Island Jewish30
BU30
Jacobi30
Pitt30
Michigan30
UT Southwestern30
UT Houston30
UT San Antonio30
UF Gainesville30
Vanderbilt30
UT Knoxville32
Baylor (Texas A&M)34
Drexel36
UCSF36
USC36
Rochester42

MED SCHOOL RANKING
Med schoolUS News RankingMed School Ranking among 6 year programs
MGH (Harvard)11
Penn32
UCSF53
Columbia64
UCLA65
Mayo96
NYU127
Washington128
Pitt139
Michigan1610
Vanderbilt1611
UNC2312
Case Western2413
Emory2414
UT Southwestern2615
Oregon (OHSU)2916
Alabama (UAB)3017
BU3018
USC3019
Buffalo3620
Rochester3621
Maryland3822
Jacobi (Albert Einstein)3823
UF Gainesville4324
UF Jacksonville4325
UIC5026
UCONN5227
UT Houston5228
Thomas Jefferson5629
UT San Antonio6030
Nebraska6531
UMKC6732
Long Island Jewish (Hofstra)7233
Kentucky7234
Rutgers7535
St. John7836
Detroit Receiving7837
UT Knoxville7838
Drexel8439
Baylor (Texas Tech)9040
Mt Sinai(New York Medical College)UNRANKED41
Kings County (SUNY Downstate)UNRANKED42
LouisvilleUNRANKED43
LSU New OrleansUNRANKED44
LSU ShreveportUNRANKED45
Loma LindaUNRANKED46

COST
ProgramMed School + 6 years living costStipend TotalStipend - TuitionMoonlighting?
NYU$180,000.00$360,000.00$180,000.00N
Oregon (OHSU)$150,000.00$281,900.00$131,900.00Y (All 6 years)
LSU Shreveport$90,000.00$208,602.00$118,602.00N
Nebraska$167,000.00$280,331.00$113,331.00Y (All 6 years)
Baylor (Texas A&M)$110,000.00$220,453.00$110,453.00Y(only during med school)
Uconn$152,000.00$250,430.00$98,430.00N
Mayo$120,000.00$237,061.00$97,061.00Y (All 6 years)
Louisville$130,000.00$226,673.00$96,673.00Y (All 6 years)
UT Knoxville$115,000.00$210,577.00$95,577.00N
Kings County$166,000.00$258,516.00$92,516.00N
Alabama (UAB)$142,000.00$232,257.00$90,257.00Y (All 6 years)
UNC$145,000.00$225,102.00$80,102.00N
Rutgers$160,000.00$239,588.00$79,588.00Y(during med school)
LSU New Orleans$140,000.00$218,077.00$78,077.00N
UIC$150,000.00$226,320.00$76,320.00N
UMKC$146,000.00$219,383.00$73,383.00N
Maryland$160,000.00$232,955.00$72,955.00N
Detroit Receiving$153,000.00$208,002.00$72,090.00N
UT San Antonio$146,000.00$216,762.00$70,762.00N
Kentucky$156,000.00$225,090.00$69,090.00Y (All 6 years)
Michigan$190,000.00$247,312.00$57,312.00N
UF Jacksonville$160,000.00$214,482.00$54,482.00N
UT Southwestern$163,000.00$216,762.00$53,762.00N
St. John$153,000.00$204,393.00$51,393.00N
UT Houston$166,000.00$216,762.00$50,762.00N
Buffalo$176,000.00$217,888.00$41,888.00N
UF Gainesville$179,000.00$214,482.00$35,482.00N
Pitt$292,000.00$324,300.00$32,300.00N
Thomas Jefferson$210,000.00$240,795.00$30,795.00N
Emory$220,000.00$247,416.00$27,416.00N
Case Western$224,000.00$248,140.00$24,140.00Y (Last 4 years)
Mt Sinai$240,000.00$255,682.00$15,682.00N
Washington$237,000.00$250,483.00$13,483.00N
Columbia$310,000.00$319,606.00$9,606.00N
Drexel$235,000.00$244,174.00$9,174.00N
UCLA$227,000.00$234,655.00$7,655.00N
MGH$264,000.00$270,000.00$6,000.00N
Loma Linda$236,000.00$236,906.00$906.00N
BU$262,000.00$261,556.00-$556.00N
Long Island Jewish$264,000.00$256,600.00-$2,600.00N
Penn$328,000.00$276,530.00-$42,470.00N
Vanderbilt$282,500.00$237,703.00-$45,203.00N
Jacobi$280,000.00$236,937.00-$46,937.00-N
UCSF$292,000.00$179,089.00-$112,911.00N
USC$329,000.00$176,505.00-$142,495.00N
Rochester$325,000.00$149,340.00-$175,660.00N

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Fantastic post and thank you for taking the time to put this together.

Only issue I have is that med school ranking is superfluous - don't know a single person who would weigh that factor heavily.

Edit: There seems to be lots of conflicting info coming from residents. Take this information lightly, I suppose. Contact programs directly for the best and most current information.
 
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Fantastic post and thank you for taking the time to put this together.

Only issue I have is that med school ranking is superfluous - don't know a single person who would weigh that factor heavily.

Unfortunately, I feel as if a lot of applicants do
 
Just curious, how did you calculate these numbers?
Your medical school months seem to be quite off:
- Baylor Texas A&M is definitely NOT 34 months. It is 24 at most.
- UTSW is closer to 24-25 months, NOT 30 months
- Knoxville is also only 26 months, NOT 32 months.
- Honestly, I stopped looking after that.

Hey man, this is meant to help people so please don’t waste your breath bashing the post. If you wish to bash the post, please private message me your concerns. No one else has put the time to organize this information and there are tons of inaccuracies in program websites that aren’t consistent with current program structures. I’ve been messaged by residents from programs who have kindly provided helpful feedback to accurately inform applicants and it will be updated accordingly.
 
Hey man, this is meant to help people so please don’t waste your breath bashing the post. If you wish to bash the post, please private message me your concerns. No one else has put the time to organize this information and there are tons of inaccuracies in program websites that aren’t consistent with current program structures. I’ve been messaged by residents from programs who have kindly provided helpful feedback to accurately inform applicants and it will be updated accordingly.

My apologies for the post. Thanks for all the info and hard work.
 
UTSW is 24 months med school, and cost is 19k per year for 3 years (tuition) with a 5,000 OMFS "scholarship" making cost 14k per year for 3 years.

Great post! Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
 
Interesting how NYU is one of the more expensive dental schools to attend, but flips around for OMFS. Appreciate this @Masterus
 
I think the cost discrepancy is due to the fact that NYU medschool became tuition free as of last year, I think OHSU might be the same but not sure.
 
Hey man, this is meant to help people so please don’t waste your breath bashing the post. If you wish to bash the post, please private message me your concerns. No one else has put the time to organize this information and there are tons of inaccuracies in program websites that aren’t consistent with current program structures. I’ve been messaged by residents from programs who have kindly provided helpful feedback to accurately inform applicants and it will be updated accordingly.

Thanks for compiling all this bro. You happen to have the stipend data for the 4-years as well? Much appreciated
 
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-OHSU is 18 months of med school with 2-3 months on service during that time.
-39-40 months total on OMFS service

Great post! Especially the under valued, less talked about table of COST. Additional tables worth considering: Years of ACGME general surgery credit, fellowship trained faculty, boards pass rate (likely impossible to make).
 
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Why does the ACGME gen surg credit matter? I know it has to do with medical licensing, but could you explain it please?

1. More time spent on general surgery usually means less time spent on oral surgery, you can only fit so much into 6 years with time in medical school, time on anesthesia, general surgery, and of course minimum 30 months oral surgery.
2. However, current programs offer 1-2 year certificates but multiple states are moving from 1-2 year requirements for medical licensure to 2-3 year requirements creating a dilemma in obtaining a license in states that have higher requirements than where you may have trained.
 
1. More time spent on general surgery usually means less time spent on oral surgery, you can only fit so much into 6 years with time in medical school, time on anesthesia, general surgery, and of course minimum 30 months oral surgery.
2. However, current programs offer 1-2 year certificates but multiple states are moving from 1-2 year requirements for medical licensure to 2-3 year requirements creating a dilemma in obtaining a license in states that have higher requirements than where you may have trained.

I'm curious what the benefits of maintaining an active medical license are. Would you or someone else here please provide some insight into this?
 
This is an EXCELLENT EXCELLENT EXCELLENT post.

However, there are certain inaccuracies in the details of the charts. Tuition is usually paid only for the time in medical school (the chart uses a 4-year tuition total), so many of the "stipend-tuition" numbers are completely useless. I also see a few programs on the chart (including my own) that are listed as not allowing moonlighting, that indeed do allow moonlighting.

I will say though, that this aspect of residency is grossly overlooked during the application process. It's a great place to start, but if an applicant is serious about 10 or so programs they should do their own research on their financial situation according to each one in more detail. Residents of programs are usually happy to provide the ins and outs of moonlighting, salary, and med school tuition at interviews and externships (while attendings are not present of course).
 
I will update when I get a chance. I’m a resident and don’t have much free time. Also they were made with the estimated costs of tuition and living costs and expenses per year. I only included 2 years if the school did 2 years and more if the program and were required to pay more. For example, UCSF and Pitt pay 4 years of med school tuition. Vanderbilt pays 3, etc Penn 2.5 etc

People VASTLY underestimate the cost of living in NYC, LA, boston, etc.

Also, if you want me to change something, please be a resident of that program. Information can be easily misconstrued.

I got a ton of messages about moonlighting. You can technically moonlight at any program. I am highlighting programs where you are doing OS highlighting and nothing dlse so taking out teeth or doing thirds.
 
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The info for UCSF is inaccurate. Residents here love our program. Our tuition is significantly less expensive than other schools due to grants, cost of living stipend, scholarships, and other lesser known facts. The estimated total cost of medical school is 100k. We also get paid a lot during our service time. Living in SF is definitely expensive and important to consider.

The total time in medical school is 25 months and in OMFS is 33 months. We have 4 clinical sites that provide excellent training for our residents all within 20-25 minutes of each other. Trauma/dentoalveolar at SFGH, orthognathics/dentoalveolar/pathology at Parnassus, dentoalveolar/TMJ at the VA, and craniofacial cases at Mission Bay.

Lots of misinformation on SDN regarding UCSF. We are constantly working to improve our program and consider ourselves quite a lucky bunch.
Feel free to contact with any questions. I will answer if I get some free time!
 
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This is definitely a great start. OP definitely put in a lot of work during his/her application cycle.

At Penn you get paid all 6 years which adds up to over 350k in resident stipend. Med School tuition comes out about 150k for 2.5 years. This puts you at net positive when considering living expanses.
 
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Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.


Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.



In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).
 
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Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.


Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.



In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).

In terms of the acgme, yes we’re only talking about Nevada right now...and yes they are practicing but only with their DDS. I didn’t believe the acgme thing mattered until it happened to our recent grad. As more states go to 3 years I think it will be something to just keep in one’s head when applying, but certainly shouldn’t be a determining factor for residency.
 
That’s interesting. First I’ve heard of it. States like Maine lack healthcare professionals so even with the 3 year requirement, they’ll waive it
 
That’s interesting. First I’ve heard of it. States like Maine lack healthcare professionals so even with the 3 year requirement, they’ll waive it

Theres a recent thread talking about this. California is going 3 years.
 
Yup I’ve heard about that for a while. It’s not going to affect any of the California residencies but maybe it’ll affect people coming from other places but I still doubt that. They’re not going to prevent California OMFS from providing care when the majority of people who practice in California come from California programs.
 
Yup I’ve heard about that for a while. It’s not going to affect any of the California residencies but maybe it’ll affect people coming from other places but I still doubt that. They’re not going to prevent California OMFS from providing care when the majority of people who practice in California come from California programs.

The problem is it won't stop anyone from providing care-- it just won't allow medical licensing and thus advertising as a MD. You would still be able to practice under your DDS/DMD licensure.
 
Yup I’ve heard about that for a while. It’s not going to affect any of the California residencies but maybe it’ll affect people coming from other places but I still doubt that. They’re not going to prevent California OMFS from providing care when the majority of people who practice in California come from California programs.

Why wouldn't it affect any of the Cali residencies compared to other OOS residencies?
 
Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.


I'm a senior resident at Penn. With the addition of our 4th resident per year, you are right that we do get a slightly reduced salary for the first 2 years, but you still get paid over $350k cumulatively.
  • 1st year: $45,567 (9 months of PGY1 salary)
  • 2nd year: $52,381 (10 months of PGY2 salary)
  • 3rd year: $65,978
  • 4th year: $68,661
  • 5th year: $71,614
  • 6th year: $74,027
These numbers are from 2019. The department is working to increase back the reduced salary during the first 2 years.
 
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That’s awesome! Thanks for the update. That partly offsets the hefty med school tuition. One thing I didn’t adjust for is taxes. 350k will be taxed down to be in the 200s. With 6 years cost of living and a tuition of 162k that will increase with interest, it still is a lot of financial burden but definitely a little less with the salary!
 
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Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.


Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.



In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).

Sorry if I was coming off abrasive in my last post! I really just wanted to clarify since our program doesn’t use the exact numbers from the medical school website. Before people dismissed UCSF as an expensive program to attend, I just wanted to dispel this notion. I have a spreadsheet calculating costs and with the stipends/salary we are significantly less expensive than most other programs I applied to.

Each OMFS resident receives a total of about ~$7500 minimum - $10000 a year in scholarships during medical school (I.e. around 40k total). During service months you are paid the resident cost of living stipend even during your medical school years. We are given 300$ a month for food (another 3600$).

Our salary is governed by a unionized resident force in SF, so we are starting pgy-1 at about 61k a year (prorated to the months you are on service) + the resident cost of living stipend (~$12,500 prorated per month of service). When you are a full time resident in your 4th year, you are making around 72k with the resident cost of living stipend. By PGY-6, we are making about 80k in salary alone + the 12,500$ resident cost of living stipend.

In terms of tuition, you become a resident of California after your first year, reducing tuition further. We do pay for 3 years of tuition currently.

Money aside - this is a fantastic program that has a not-so-glorious past with a history of 7 year lengths and Davis medical degrees. None of these issues exist any longer. The medical school time is currently 25 months and all residents graduate with a prestigious and truly valuable UCSF medical school education. This isn’t a typical 6 year where the medical school is just a hurdle to get through, the school here is amazing and takes into account that you are OMFS. There are so many interesting avenues of exploration in medical school that really allow you to propel your OMFS education while in medical school.
 
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interesting, Are you paid a full salary for all 6 years of NYU? Even med school years?

how would they make this work? any other programs like this?
 
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interesting, Are you paid a full salary for all 6 years of NYU? Even med school years?

how would they make this work? any other programs like this?

NYU provides salary all 6 years (increasing annually from PGY-1 to PGY-6) in addition to having no medical school tuition. Financially, this is a ~$250,000 gain from around -$115,000 (2 years of tuition) to +$135,000 (2 years of stipend). In return, you take call a few times each month during medical school.
 
I've heard that Jacobi residents pay 3 years med tuition at Einstein? is this true?
 
Thanks for doing this; I'm happy to see more organized info for future OMFS-ers. Here's an update from a current Emory resident: 22 months total of medical school (2 months of OMFS count towards M4 electives, for a total of 31 months of OMFS for the 6-year and 32 months for the 4-year). We pay 2 years of tuition, but get 30K of "scholarship"-grant (which has fluctuated in the last few years) over those 2 years. Total tuition is like ~55K/year when you have added in the BS fees like Student Activities.
 
Does anyone have more info regarding Jackson-Memorial (i.e., ability to moonlight, the culture of the program, scope, cost of med-school option, etc.)?
 
I've also heard that you can moonlight at Penn. Curious how much you can during the Med School years to offset the expensive cost even more.
 
I think @Masterus has done a pretty good job given all the variables and often difficult-to-find data, it was never going to be perfect, but it provides an interesting perspective. Thanks for your original post.

A lot of people are concerned about Medical licensure in various states and fail to actually read the individual state laws, which is surprising considering how much time you spend in this training pathway.

@Sublimazing Nevada has an exemption for OMFS trained residents to get medical licensure: NRS: CHAPTER 630 - PHYSICIANS, PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS, MEDICAL ASSISTANTS, PERFUSIONISTS AND PRACTITIONERS OF RESPIRATORY CARE

@BYU4you a similar exemption for CA, most up-to-date as of Jan 2020: https://www.mbc.ca.gov/Download/Forms/ps-information.pdf

Same goes for just about every state, just gotta do your homework.

As the original person @Masterus has mentioned, amount of ACGME credit is not typically an issue, whether programs complete a 1-2 General Surgery training is typically sufficient for almost every state. Keep in mind though, it needs to be an ABMS surgery specialty certificate (i.e. General Surgery, etc.). This is because 2-years of ACGME credit w/o being tied to an ABMS surgery specialty can make it more difficult to fill out your application for state licensure, and there now are programs that are offering 2-yrs of "ACGME credit" (which is basically made-up) and not doing the traditional general surgery year.
 
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I think @Masterus has done a pretty good job given all the variables and often difficult-to-find data, it was never going to be perfect, but it provides an interesting perspective. Thanks for your original post.

A lot of people are concerned about Medical licensure in various states and fail to actually read the individual state laws, which is surprising considering how much time you spend in this training pathway.

@Sublimazing Nevada has an exemption for OMFS trained residents to get medical licensure: NRS: CHAPTER 630 - PHYSICIANS, PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS, MEDICAL ASSISTANTS, PERFUSIONISTS AND PRACTITIONERS OF RESPIRATORY CARE

@BYU4you a similar exemption for CA, most up-to-date as of Jan 2020: https://www.mbc.ca.gov/Download/Forms/ps-information.pdf

Same goes for just about every state, just gotta do your homework.

As the original person @Masterus has mentioned, amount of ACGME credit is not typically an issue, whether programs complete a 1-2 General Surgery training is typically sufficient for almost every state. Keep in mind though, it needs to be an ABMS surgery specialty certificate (i.e. General Surgery, etc.). This is because 2-years of ACGME credit w/o being tied to an ABMS surgery specialty can make it more difficult to fill out your application for state licensure, and there now are programs that are offering 2-yrs of "ACGME credit" (which is basically made-up) and not doing the traditional general surgery year.

I know 2 recent grads who went to great lengths in 2018 and 2019 to get their MD licenses and were denied...by the state board...it impacted them quite a bit in their privileges so they made quite an effort...and still denied.

Do you know someone who got their MD license there in the past 5 years?
 
Does anyone know if Jefferson 6yr pays you a stipend during the med school years or how that works? I know Penn does.

Also - can someone explain how their 4yr optional MD route works? Can you moonlight during the 2 med school years? Is it longer than 2 years to get the MD? I can't seem to find any information on their site and was curious.

Thanks!
 
Current resident here from University of Michigan. We do 31 months of OMFS, 9 months gen surg (2 year certificate), 1 month plastics, one month ENT, 5 months anesthesia (1-2 mo peds anesthesia) where you are paired with CRNA or upper level anesthesia for 1 month then run your own room for 4 months, 25 months of med school. You pay 2 1/4 yrs ( 4.5 semesters of tuition) of 50% tuition. Residency covers half. Really no chance of in state tuition unless you are actually from the state. I know a handful of co-residents that have received assistance in addition to the 50% scholarship. starting PGY1 salary is approximately 65k/yr and
 
Current resident here from University of Michigan. We do 31 months of OMFS, 9 months gen surg (2 year certificate), 1 month plastics, one month ENT, 5 months anesthesia (1-2 mo peds anesthesia) where you are paired with CRNA or upper level anesthesia for 1 month then run your own room for 4 months, 25 months of med school. You pay 2 1/4 yrs ( 4.5 semesters of tuition) of 50% tuition. Residency covers half. Really no chance of in state tuition unless you are actually from the state. I know a handful of co-residents that have received assistance in addition to the 50% scholarship. starting PGY1 salary is approximately 65k/yr and
Let’s gooooo. See you in July
 
Hey nice post! A comment about our program at Kentucky. We do a full 36 months of OMFS, its the entirety of the 1st, 5th and 6th years. Nice overview though
 
Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.


Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.



In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).
Did ya ever end up making a spreadsheet? Thanks for all your hard work btw. I’m a resident at a program with some changes recently in terms of finances that I’ll be messaging ya about soon!
 
Not sure I read every post here but don't forget that many program "double dip". Meaning that your anesthesia rotation counts for medical school months and OMS months. Some programs even allow rotations on cleft lip and palate or oral surgery count toward medical school graduation and toward OMS months. This is the term "double dipping". While not illegal it may compromise the medical or OMS training a bit. That being said, with medical schools requiring more and more "months" of required rotations I don't see how 6 year OMS programs continue at 6 years without double dipping. I have had this exact conversation with some PD's at a few east coast OMS training programs. They state that if they could not double dip they would have to convert to a 4 year program or extend to 7 years. As a site inspector for OMS programs, double dipping is not a violation of CODA standards so nothing to be concerned about really......Unless CODA changes the standards.

The post is a nice primer for discussion and basic info for those who are wondering. I would ask that applicants and those looking for more information not get bogged down in the details here. Things change year to year. GO DO EXTERNSHIPS AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU LIKE OMS!! Then make sure you like the residents and would be able to work with them. If a resident sees you (student or extern) as distraction or nuisance that is not a good program. Residents should want to show off their program and help you understand the program. As long and you are respectful and try to stay seen but not heard.
 
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