OMFS 6 year Program IMPORTANT info

[Masterus]

I've organized a few charts here to compare schools for people applying this cycle. This is some general information on programs. The costs are rough estimates of the cost of living with the current 2019-2020 med school tuitions. As you can see programs in the northeast/west coast are EXTREMELY expensive. There are generally more months on service in the southeast and midwestern programs and less medical school time. Med school rankings are also listed. The highly ranked med schools also tend to be the more expensive programs. If you're looking at med school ranking, I thought it was more important to rerank the med schools to the ones that actually have OMFS programs.

Programs with moonlighting lead to a ton of money generated so keep that in mind.

MONTHS ON SERVICE

Program Months OMFS LSU Shreveport 45 Rutgers 44 Alabama (UAB) 40 Louisville 40 LSU New Orleans 40 UIC 38 Nebraska 38 UNC 38 Oregon (OHSU) 36 UF Jacksonville 36 Mayo 35 Uconn 35 UT Southwestern 34 BU 33 NYU 33 Pitt 33 Case Western 32 Maryland 32 Penn 32 Michigan 32 Vanderbilt 32 Columbia 31 MGH 31 Long Island Jewish 30 Jacobi 30 Mt Sinai 30 Kings County 30 Thomas Jefferson 30 Drexel 30 Buffalo 30 Rochester 30 St. John 30 Detroit Receiving 30 UMKC 30 Kentucky 30 Emory 30 UT Houston 30 UT San Antonio 30 UF Gainesville 30 Baylor (Texas A&M) 30 UT Knoxville 30 UCLA 30 UCSF 30 Loma Linda 30 Washington 30 USC 30

Time spent in med school

Program	Months Med
Case Western	12
LSU Shreveport	13
Rutgers	18
Nebraska	18
UIC	18
Louisville	18
Alabama (UAB)	18
LSU New Orleans	18
UNC	18
Oregon (OHSU)	20
MGH	20
Uconn	21
Maryland	24
Penn	24
Mt Sinai	24
Columbia	24
Kings County	24
Thomas Jefferson	24
Buffalo	24
St. John	24
Detroit Receiving	24
Mayo	24
UMKC	24
Kentucky	24
Emory	24
UCLA	24
Loma Linda	24
Washington	24
UF Jacksonville	26
NYU	28
Long Island Jewish	30
BU	30
Jacobi	30
Pitt	30
Michigan	30
UT Southwestern	30
UT Houston	30
UT San Antonio	30
UF Gainesville	30
Vanderbilt	30
UT Knoxville	32
Baylor (Texas A&M)	34
Drexel	36
UCSF	36
USC	36
Rochester	42

MED SCHOOL RANKING

Med school	US News Ranking	Med School Ranking among 6 year programs
MGH (Harvard)	1	1
Penn	3	2
UCSF	5	3
Columbia	6	4
UCLA	6	5
Mayo	9	6
NYU	12	7
Washington	12	8
Pitt	13	9
Michigan	16	10
Vanderbilt	16	11
UNC	23	12
Case Western	24	13
Emory	24	14
UT Southwestern	26	15
Oregon (OHSU)	29	16
Alabama (UAB)	30	17
BU	30	18
USC	30	19
Buffalo	36	20
Rochester	36	21
Maryland	38	22
Jacobi (Albert Einstein)	38	23
UF Gainesville	43	24
UF Jacksonville	43	25
UIC	50	26
UCONN	52	27
UT Houston	52	28
Thomas Jefferson	56	29
UT San Antonio	60	30
Nebraska	65	31
UMKC	67	32
Long Island Jewish (Hofstra)	72	33
Kentucky	72	34
Rutgers	75	35
St. John	78	36
Detroit Receiving	78	37
UT Knoxville	78	38
Drexel	84	39
Baylor (Texas Tech)	90	40
Mt Sinai(New York Medical College)	UNRANKED	41
Kings County (SUNY Downstate)	UNRANKED	42
Louisville	UNRANKED	43
LSU New Orleans	UNRANKED	44
LSU Shreveport	UNRANKED	45
Loma Linda	UNRANKED	46

COST

Program	Med School + 6 years living cost	Stipend Total	Stipend - Tuition	Moonlighting?
NYU	$180,000.00	$360,000.00	$180,000.00	N
Oregon (OHSU)	$150,000.00	$281,900.00	$131,900.00	Y (All 6 years)
LSU Shreveport	$90,000.00	$208,602.00	$118,602.00	N
Nebraska	$167,000.00	$280,331.00	$113,331.00	Y (All 6 years)
Baylor (Texas A&M)	$110,000.00	$220,453.00	$110,453.00	Y(only during med school)
Uconn	$152,000.00	$250,430.00	$98,430.00	N
Mayo	$120,000.00	$237,061.00	$97,061.00	Y (All 6 years)
Louisville	$130,000.00	$226,673.00	$96,673.00	Y (All 6 years)
UT Knoxville	$115,000.00	$210,577.00	$95,577.00	N
Kings County	$166,000.00	$258,516.00	$92,516.00	N
Alabama (UAB)	$142,000.00	$232,257.00	$90,257.00	Y (All 6 years)
UNC	$145,000.00	$225,102.00	$80,102.00	N
Rutgers	$160,000.00	$239,588.00	$79,588.00	Y(during med school)
LSU New Orleans	$140,000.00	$218,077.00	$78,077.00	N
UIC	$150,000.00	$226,320.00	$76,320.00	N
UMKC	$146,000.00	$219,383.00	$73,383.00	N
Maryland	$160,000.00	$232,955.00	$72,955.00	N
Detroit Receiving	$153,000.00	$208,002.00	$72,090.00	N
UT San Antonio	$146,000.00	$216,762.00	$70,762.00	N
Kentucky	$156,000.00	$225,090.00	$69,090.00	Y (All 6 years)
Michigan	$190,000.00	$247,312.00	$57,312.00	N
UF Jacksonville	$160,000.00	$214,482.00	$54,482.00	N
UT Southwestern	$163,000.00	$216,762.00	$53,762.00	N
St. John	$153,000.00	$204,393.00	$51,393.00	N
UT Houston	$166,000.00	$216,762.00	$50,762.00	N
Buffalo	$176,000.00	$217,888.00	$41,888.00	N
UF Gainesville	$179,000.00	$214,482.00	$35,482.00	N
Pitt	$292,000.00	$324,300.00	$32,300.00	N
Thomas Jefferson	$210,000.00	$240,795.00	$30,795.00	N
Emory	$220,000.00	$247,416.00	$27,416.00	N
Case Western	$224,000.00	$248,140.00	$24,140.00	Y (Last 4 years)
Mt Sinai	$240,000.00	$255,682.00	$15,682.00	N
Washington	$237,000.00	$250,483.00	$13,483.00	N
Columbia	$310,000.00	$319,606.00	$9,606.00	N
Drexel	$235,000.00	$244,174.00	$9,174.00	N
UCLA	$227,000.00	$234,655.00	$7,655.00	N
MGH	$264,000.00	$270,000.00	$6,000.00	N
Loma Linda	$236,000.00	$236,906.00	$906.00	N
BU	$262,000.00	$261,556.00	-$556.00	N
Long Island Jewish	$264,000.00	$256,600.00	-$2,600.00	N
Penn	$328,000.00	$276,530.00	-$42,470.00	N
Vanderbilt	$282,500.00	$237,703.00	-$45,203.00	N
Jacobi	$280,000.00	$236,937.00	-$46,937.00-	N
UCSF	$292,000.00	$179,089.00	-$112,911.00	N
USC	$329,000.00	$176,505.00	-$142,495.00	N
Rochester	$325,000.00	$149,340.00	-$175,660.00	N

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[_Potassium]

Fantastic post and thank you for taking the time to put this together.

Only issue I have is that med school ranking is superfluous - don't know a single person who would weigh that factor heavily.

Edit: There seems to be lots of conflicting info coming from residents. Take this information lightly, I suppose. Contact programs directly for the best and most current information.

 

[AfterEffects]

Too many errors to be effectively useful. Decent place to start though.

 

[parkinglottoilet]

Yea found multiple errors in your post. It is a good idea though

 

[resiliens]

Yea found multiple errors in your post. It is a good idea though

Mistakes in the stipend/cost of attendance as well?

 

[bubblysauce]

Fantastic post and thank you for taking the time to put this together.

Only issue I have is that med school ranking is superfluous - don't know a single person who would weigh that factor heavily.

Unfortunately, I feel as if a lot of applicants do

 

[Masterus]

Just curious, how did you calculate these numbers?
Your medical school months seem to be quite off:
- Baylor Texas A&M is definitely NOT 34 months. It is 24 at most.
- UTSW is closer to 24-25 months, NOT 30 months
- Knoxville is also only 26 months, NOT 32 months.
- Honestly, I stopped looking after that.

Hey man, this is meant to help people so please don’t waste your breath bashing the post. If you wish to bash the post, please private message me your concerns. No one else has put the time to organize this information and there are tons of inaccuracies in program websites that aren’t consistent with current program structures. I’ve been messaged by residents from programs who have kindly provided helpful feedback to accurately inform applicants and it will be updated accordingly.

 

[AfterEffects]

Hey man, this is meant to help people so please don’t waste your breath bashing the post. If you wish to bash the post, please private message me your concerns. No one else has put the time to organize this information and there are tons of inaccuracies in program websites that aren’t consistent with current program structures. I’ve been messaged by residents from programs who have kindly provided helpful feedback to accurately inform applicants and it will be updated accordingly.

My apologies for the post. Thanks for all the info and hard work.

 

[avangusva]

UTSW is 24 months med school, and cost is 19k per year for 3 years (tuition) with a 5,000 OMFS "scholarship" making cost 14k per year for 3 years.

Great post! Thank you for taking the time to put this together.

 

[ThirdMolarz]

Interesting how NYU is one of the more expensive dental schools to attend, but flips around for OMFS. Appreciate this @Masterus

 

[piratewow]

I think the cost discrepancy is due to the fact that NYU medschool became tuition free as of last year, I think OHSU might be the same but not sure.

 

[resiliens]

Hey man, this is meant to help people so please don’t waste your breath bashing the post. If you wish to bash the post, please private message me your concerns. No one else has put the time to organize this information and there are tons of inaccuracies in program websites that aren’t consistent with current program structures. I’ve been messaged by residents from programs who have kindly provided helpful feedback to accurately inform applicants and it will be updated accordingly.

Thanks for compiling all this bro. You happen to have the stipend data for the 4-years as well? Much appreciated

 

[C.elegans]

This post is a goldmine. Thank you sir!

 

[omfsing]

Best post ever on SDN. This should be pinned on the top. Thank you for doing this, this is what SDN is all about.

 

[OMFS@2018]

-OHSU is 18 months of med school with 2-3 months on service during that time.
-39-40 months total on OMFS service

Great post! Especially the under valued, less talked about table of COST. Additional tables worth considering: Years of ACGME general surgery credit, fellowship trained faculty, boards pass rate (likely impossible to make).

 

[Not_A_Doc]

Another vote to include gen surg credit. It will impact my decision significantly. I imagine it will for others as well.

 

[sjv]

Why does the ACGME gen surg credit matter? I know it has to do with medical licensing, but could you explain it please?

1. More time spent on general surgery usually means less time spent on oral surgery, you can only fit so much into 6 years with time in medical school, time on anesthesia, general surgery, and of course minimum 30 months oral surgery.
2. However, current programs offer 1-2 year certificates but multiple states are moving from 1-2 year requirements for medical licensure to 2-3 year requirements creating a dilemma in obtaining a license in states that have higher requirements than where you may have trained.

 

[resiliens]

1. More time spent on general surgery usually means less time spent on oral surgery, you can only fit so much into 6 years with time in medical school, time on anesthesia, general surgery, and of course minimum 30 months oral surgery.
2. However, current programs offer 1-2 year certificates but multiple states are moving from 1-2 year requirements for medical licensure to 2-3 year requirements creating a dilemma in obtaining a license in states that have higher requirements than where you may have trained.

I'm curious what the benefits of maintaining an active medical license are. Would you or someone else here please provide some insight into this?

 

[Anonymomfs]

This is an EXCELLENT EXCELLENT EXCELLENT post.

However, there are certain inaccuracies in the details of the charts. Tuition is usually paid only for the time in medical school (the chart uses a 4-year tuition total), so many of the "stipend-tuition" numbers are completely useless. I also see a few programs on the chart (including my own) that are listed as not allowing moonlighting, that indeed do allow moonlighting.

I will say though, that this aspect of residency is grossly overlooked during the application process. It's a great place to start, but if an applicant is serious about 10 or so programs they should do their own research on their financial situation according to each one in more detail. Residents of programs are usually happy to provide the ins and outs of moonlighting, salary, and med school tuition at interviews and externships (while attendings are not present of course).

 

[Masterus]

I will update when I get a chance. I’m a resident and don’t have much free time. Also they were made with the estimated costs of tuition and living costs and expenses per year. I only included 2 years if the school did 2 years and more if the program and were required to pay more. For example, UCSF and Pitt pay 4 years of med school tuition. Vanderbilt pays 3, etc Penn 2.5 etc

People VASTLY underestimate the cost of living in NYC, LA, boston, etc.

Also, if you want me to change something, please be a resident of that program. Information can be easily misconstrued.

I got a ton of messages about moonlighting. You can technically moonlight at any program. I am highlighting programs where you are doing OS highlighting and nothing dlse so taking out teeth or doing thirds.

 

[elwaytime7]

The info for UCSF is inaccurate. Residents here love our program. Our tuition is significantly less expensive than other schools due to grants, cost of living stipend, scholarships, and other lesser known facts. The estimated total cost of medical school is 100k. We also get paid a lot during our service time. Living in SF is definitely expensive and important to consider.

The total time in medical school is 25 months and in OMFS is 33 months. We have 4 clinical sites that provide excellent training for our residents all within 20-25 minutes of each other. Trauma/dentoalveolar at SFGH, orthognathics/dentoalveolar/pathology at Parnassus, dentoalveolar/TMJ at the VA, and craniofacial cases at Mission Bay.

Lots of misinformation on SDN regarding UCSF. We are constantly working to improve our program and consider ourselves quite a lucky bunch.
Feel free to contact with any questions. I will answer if I get some free time!

 

[Pennywisdom]

This is definitely a great start. OP definitely put in a lot of work during his/her application cycle.

At Penn you get paid all 6 years which adds up to over 350k in resident stipend. Med School tuition comes out about 150k for 2.5 years. This puts you at net positive when considering living expanses.

 

[Masterus]

Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.

School of Medicine 2020-21 | UCSF Office of the Registrar

registrar.ucsf.edu

Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.

Tuition & Fees | MD Admissions | Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).

 

[Sublimazing]

Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.

School of Medicine 2020-21 | UCSF Office of the Registrar

registrar.ucsf.edu

Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.

Tuition & Fees | MD Admissions | Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).

In terms of the acgme, yes we’re only talking about Nevada right now...and yes they are practicing but only with their DDS. I didn’t believe the acgme thing mattered until it happened to our recent grad. As more states go to 3 years I think it will be something to just keep in one’s head when applying, but certainly shouldn’t be a determining factor for residency.

 

[Masterus]

That’s interesting. First I’ve heard of it. States like Maine lack healthcare professionals so even with the 3 year requirement, they’ll waive it

 

[BYU4you]

That’s interesting. First I’ve heard of it. States like Maine lack healthcare professionals so even with the 3 year requirement, they’ll waive it

Theres a recent thread talking about this. California is going 3 years.

 

[Masterus]

Yup I’ve heard about that for a while. It’s not going to affect any of the California residencies but maybe it’ll affect people coming from other places but I still doubt that. They’re not going to prevent California OMFS from providing care when the majority of people who practice in California come from California programs.

 

[avangusva]

Yup I’ve heard about that for a while. It’s not going to affect any of the California residencies but maybe it’ll affect people coming from other places but I still doubt that. They’re not going to prevent California OMFS from providing care when the majority of people who practice in California come from California programs.

The problem is it won't stop anyone from providing care-- it just won't allow medical licensing and thus advertising as a MD. You would still be able to practice under your DDS/DMD licensure.

 

[naruto135]

Yup I’ve heard about that for a while. It’s not going to affect any of the California residencies but maybe it’ll affect people coming from other places but I still doubt that. They’re not going to prevent California OMFS from providing care when the majority of people who practice in California come from California programs.

Why wouldn't it affect any of the Cali residencies compared to other OOS residencies?

 

[Pennywisdom]

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.

Tuition & Fees | MD Admissions | Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

I'm a senior resident at Penn. With the addition of our 4th resident per year, you are right that we do get a slightly reduced salary for the first 2 years, but you still get paid over $350k cumulatively.

• 1st year: $45,567 (9 months of PGY1 salary)
• 2nd year: $52,381 (10 months of PGY2 salary)
• 3rd year: $65,978
• 4th year: $68,661
• 5th year: $71,614
• 6th year: $74,027

These numbers are from 2019. The department is working to increase back the reduced salary during the first 2 years.

 

[Masterus]

That’s awesome! Thanks for the update. That partly offsets the hefty med school tuition. One thing I didn’t adjust for is taxes. 350k will be taxed down to be in the 200s. With 6 years cost of living and a tuition of 162k that will increase with interest, it still is a lot of financial burden but definitely a little less with the salary!

 

[elwaytime7]

Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.

School of Medicine 2020-21 | UCSF Office of the Registrar

registrar.ucsf.edu

Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.

Tuition & Fees | MD Admissions | Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).

Sorry if I was coming off abrasive in my last post! I really just wanted to clarify since our program doesn’t use the exact numbers from the medical school website. Before people dismissed UCSF as an expensive program to attend, I just wanted to dispel this notion. I have a spreadsheet calculating costs and with the stipends/salary we are significantly less expensive than most other programs I applied to.

Each OMFS resident receives a total of about ~$7500 minimum - $10000 a year in scholarships during medical school (I.e. around 40k total). During service months you are paid the resident cost of living stipend even during your medical school years. We are given 300$ a month for food (another 3600$).

Our salary is governed by a unionized resident force in SF, so we are starting pgy-1 at about 61k a year (prorated to the months you are on service) + the resident cost of living stipend (~$12,500 prorated per month of service). When you are a full time resident in your 4th year, you are making around 72k with the resident cost of living stipend. By PGY-6, we are making about 80k in salary alone + the 12,500$ resident cost of living stipend.

In terms of tuition, you become a resident of California after your first year, reducing tuition further. We do pay for 3 years of tuition currently.

Money aside - this is a fantastic program that has a not-so-glorious past with a history of 7 year lengths and Davis medical degrees. None of these issues exist any longer. The medical school time is currently 25 months and all residents graduate with a prestigious and truly valuable UCSF medical school education. This isn’t a typical 6 year where the medical school is just a hurdle to get through, the school here is amazing and takes into account that you are OMFS. There are so many interesting avenues of exploration in medical school that really allow you to propel your OMFS education while in medical school.

 

[SkyMonkey]

interesting, Are you paid a full salary for all 6 years of NYU? Even med school years?

how would they make this work? any other programs like this?

 

[Arabidopsis]

interesting, Are you paid a full salary for all 6 years of NYU? Even med school years?

how would they make this work? any other programs like this?

NYU provides salary all 6 years (increasing annually from PGY-1 to PGY-6) in addition to having no medical school tuition. Financially, this is a ~$250,000 gain from around -$115,000 (2 years of tuition) to +$135,000 (2 years of stipend). In return, you take call a few times each month during medical school.

 

[OKC_Kristina]

I've heard that Jacobi residents pay 3 years med tuition at Einstein? is this true?

 

[bluedevil17]

Thanks for doing this; I'm happy to see more organized info for future OMFS-ers. Here's an update from a current Emory resident: 22 months total of medical school (2 months of OMFS count towards M4 electives, for a total of 31 months of OMFS for the 6-year and 32 months for the 4-year). We pay 2 years of tuition, but get 30K of "scholarship"-grant (which has fluctuated in the last few years) over those 2 years. Total tuition is like ~55K/year when you have added in the BS fees like Student Activities.

 

[caffeine jitters]

Does anyone have more info regarding Jackson-Memorial (i.e., ability to moonlight, the culture of the program, scope, cost of med-school option, etc.)?

 

[deleted913442]

I've also heard that you can moonlight at Penn. Curious how much you can during the Med School years to offset the expensive cost even more.

 

[AnOMFS]

I think @Masterus has done a pretty good job given all the variables and often difficult-to-find data, it was never going to be perfect, but it provides an interesting perspective. Thanks for your original post.

A lot of people are concerned about Medical licensure in various states and fail to actually read the individual state laws, which is surprising considering how much time you spend in this training pathway.

@Sublimazing Nevada has an exemption for OMFS trained residents to get medical licensure: NRS: CHAPTER 630 - PHYSICIANS, PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS, MEDICAL ASSISTANTS, PERFUSIONISTS AND PRACTITIONERS OF RESPIRATORY CARE

@BYU4you a similar exemption for CA, most up-to-date as of Jan 2020: https://www.mbc.ca.gov/Download/Forms/ps-information.pdf

Same goes for just about every state, just gotta do your homework.

As the original person @Masterus has mentioned, amount of ACGME credit is not typically an issue, whether programs complete a 1-2 General Surgery training is typically sufficient for almost every state. Keep in mind though, it needs to be an ABMS surgery specialty certificate (i.e. General Surgery, etc.). This is because 2-years of ACGME credit w/o being tied to an ABMS surgery specialty can make it more difficult to fill out your application for state licensure, and there now are programs that are offering 2-yrs of "ACGME credit" (which is basically made-up) and not doing the traditional general surgery year.

 

[Sublimazing]

I think @Masterus has done a pretty good job given all the variables and often difficult-to-find data, it was never going to be perfect, but it provides an interesting perspective. Thanks for your original post.

A lot of people are concerned about Medical licensure in various states and fail to actually read the individual state laws, which is surprising considering how much time you spend in this training pathway.

@Sublimazing Nevada has an exemption for OMFS trained residents to get medical licensure: NRS: CHAPTER 630 - PHYSICIANS, PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS, MEDICAL ASSISTANTS, PERFUSIONISTS AND PRACTITIONERS OF RESPIRATORY CARE

@BYU4you a similar exemption for CA, most up-to-date as of Jan 2020: https://www.mbc.ca.gov/Download/Forms/ps-information.pdf

Same goes for just about every state, just gotta do your homework.

As the original person @Masterus has mentioned, amount of ACGME credit is not typically an issue, whether programs complete a 1-2 General Surgery training is typically sufficient for almost every state. Keep in mind though, it needs to be an ABMS surgery specialty certificate (i.e. General Surgery, etc.). This is because 2-years of ACGME credit w/o being tied to an ABMS surgery specialty can make it more difficult to fill out your application for state licensure, and there now are programs that are offering 2-yrs of "ACGME credit" (which is basically made-up) and not doing the traditional general surgery year.

I know 2 recent grads who went to great lengths in 2018 and 2019 to get their MD licenses and were denied...by the state board...it impacted them quite a bit in their privileges so they made quite an effort...and still denied.

Do you know someone who got their MD license there in the past 5 years?

 

[deleted913442]

Does anyone know if Jefferson 6yr pays you a stipend during the med school years or how that works? I know Penn does.

Also - can someone explain how their 4yr optional MD route works? Can you moonlight during the 2 med school years? Is it longer than 2 years to get the MD? I can't seem to find any information on their site and was curious.

Thanks!

 

[WolverineOMFS]

Current resident here from University of Michigan. We do 31 months of OMFS, 9 months gen surg (2 year certificate), 1 month plastics, one month ENT, 5 months anesthesia (1-2 mo peds anesthesia) where you are paired with CRNA or upper level anesthesia for 1 month then run your own room for 4 months, 25 months of med school. You pay 2 1/4 yrs ( 4.5 semesters of tuition) of 50% tuition. Residency covers half. Really no chance of in state tuition unless you are actually from the state. I know a handful of co-residents that have received assistance in addition to the 50% scholarship. starting PGY1 salary is approximately 65k/yr and

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

Current resident here from University of Michigan. We do 31 months of OMFS, 9 months gen surg (2 year certificate), 1 month plastics, one month ENT, 5 months anesthesia (1-2 mo peds anesthesia) where you are paired with CRNA or upper level anesthesia for 1 month then run your own room for 4 months, 25 months of med school. You pay 2 1/4 yrs ( 4.5 semesters of tuition) of 50% tuition. Residency covers half. Really no chance of in state tuition unless you are actually from the state. I know a handful of co-residents that have received assistance in addition to the 50% scholarship. starting PGY1 salary is approximately 65k/yr and

Let’s gooooo. See you in July

 

[Chomski]

Hey nice post! A comment about our program at Kentucky. We do a full 36 months of OMFS, its the entirety of the 1st, 5th and 6th years. Nice overview though

 

[AshAndDash]

Still updating. Not much free time except to read the thread and respond. I'm going to do a google spreadsheet instead.

Big thing to keep in mind is that nothing in this spreadsheet includes your loans from dental school that will accumulate and your loans from med school/living costs that will accumulate.

UCSF:

I only used objective data from the website. UCSF residents pay 4 years at UCSF. Med school tuition is at an all time high and there are almost very few schools left that are at 25k a year. I took figures straight from med school website.

School of Medicine 2020-21 | UCSF Office of the Registrar

registrar.ucsf.edu

Here, it lists in state is 40k a year for just tuition in state and I believe UCSF doesn’t give you in state the first year so it’s 50k. So you are looking at 170k in just tuition alone. The estimated cost of living in SF is 20-30k a year. It may be a little less than that if you’re very frugal. Regardless, that is absolute ton of debt if you’re there for 6 years.

You get a 1000 dollar living stipend per month but that only bumps things down 12,000 dollars a year. That was accounted for in the total estimate of cost.

I want people to know what they are actually getting into because interviews pretty much downplay costs as well as programs and residents downplay it as well because they want you to go there!!

If anyone has any questions about how I calculated it out for a program feel free to ask.

Penn:
They are paid all 6 years, but penn's salary is at a reduced salary for some of the 6 years when you're not on service. It is not the entire resident stipend so it is not 350k. It is in the high 200s. Tuition alone is at 162,000 for 2.5 years - 65k per year. Their total estimated cost is 90,000+ dollars per year in med school but this can a little lower if you're frugal.

Tuition & Fees | MD Admissions | Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania

In terms of ACGME credit,

ACGME credit matters a little bit but it mostly doesn't really matter. It is for sure nice to have more years under your belt. At the same time, residents at programs that give more will try to highlight it as a plus and make it seem like it is absolutely necessary but it is NOT. If you speak to any practicing OMFS, I've never heard of anyone having any issues getting credit except in maybe 1 or 2 states but even then they still were able to practice there eventually. All California programs give 1 year credit yet the majority of graduates stay there. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone saying I was rejected on my ACGME credit and I couldn't practice in that state so I picked another state? Usually when you petition the state board to practice under your MD, people don't have a problem getting approval.

People are going to any state they want to practice these days. The majority of people on this forum are dental students and then there are some residents. There are very few actual OMFS who can offer their perspective so please go and talk to the actual practitioners. They will tell you what's important when you go out to practice.

In terms of moonlighting,

You'll find that there's a lot of time in med school. As you work your way up the ranks, residency really does chill out more depending on the program. You have a lot more saturdays free where you can moonlight. Also, you can technically moonlight at every program in the country as a general dentist and not tell anyone. The important moonlighting gigs you will want to watch out for are ones where
A. you are doing only dentoalveolar
B. it is nice when residents hand down moonlighting jobs because it's established within the program (moonlighting gigs are a pain in the ass to set up)
C. You are paid more in moonlighting gigs in regions like the midwest and south where OMFS salaries are already higher due to volume and less competition (It is also easier to pick up more moonlighting gigs).

Did ya ever end up making a spreadsheet? Thanks for all your hard work btw. I’m a resident at a program with some changes recently in terms of finances that I’ll be messaging ya about soon!

 

[nade0016]

Not sure I read every post here but don't forget that many program "double dip". Meaning that your anesthesia rotation counts for medical school months and OMS months. Some programs even allow rotations on cleft lip and palate or oral surgery count toward medical school graduation and toward OMS months. This is the term "double dipping". While not illegal it may compromise the medical or OMS training a bit. That being said, with medical schools requiring more and more "months" of required rotations I don't see how 6 year OMS programs continue at 6 years without double dipping. I have had this exact conversation with some PD's at a few east coast OMS training programs. They state that if they could not double dip they would have to convert to a 4 year program or extend to 7 years. As a site inspector for OMS programs, double dipping is not a violation of CODA standards so nothing to be concerned about really......Unless CODA changes the standards.

The post is a nice primer for discussion and basic info for those who are wondering. I would ask that applicants and those looking for more information not get bogged down in the details here. Things change year to year. GO DO EXTERNSHIPS AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU LIKE OMS!! Then make sure you like the residents and would be able to work with them. If a resident sees you (student or extern) as distraction or nuisance that is not a good program. Residents should want to show off their program and help you understand the program. As long and you are respectful and try to stay seen but not heard.