OMFS

[princeafrica]

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Hi,

I am a pre-dental student so I don't know too much about OMFS so here I am. I did a little research and could not find an answer to following: What is the difference between a 4 residency oral surgeon and one that does 6 years? I know the one that does 6 years gets an MD degree as well but what's the difference in scope of practice? What type of cases does the DDS/MD do that the DDS oral surgeon can't do?

Thank you for your response in advance!

 

[deleted678432]

Both 4 and 6 year programs produce surgeons that can do the exact same procedures. Scope is not hindered or broadened at all for either path. The ONLY difference is that you get an MD via the 6 year route. I have heard that having the MD gives yourself more legitimacy when looking at academia positions and fellowship programs, if those are in interest to you. I’ve worked for 3 dual degree and 3 single degree surgeons, and they all are able to do the exact same thing.

 

[princeafrica]

Both 4 and 6 year programs produce surgeons that can do the exact same procedures. Scope is not hindered or broadened at all for either path. The ONLY difference is that you get an MD via the 6 year route. I have heard that having the MD gives yourself more legitimacy when looking at academia positions and fellowship programs, if those are in interest to you. I’ve worked for 3 dual degree and 3 single degree surgeons, and they all are able to do the exact same thing.

Interesting! Thank you!

 

[surgmagee]

Hi,

I am a pre-dental student so I don't know too much about OMFS so here I am. I did a little research and could not find an answer to following: What is the difference between a 4 residency oral surgeon and one that does 6 years? I know the one that does 6 years gets an MD degree as well but what's the difference in scope of practice? What type of cases does the DDS/MD do that the DDS oral surgeon can't do?

Thank you for your response in advance!

Simply put it’s about choosing which path helps YOU achieve the same goal. It’s a personal thing really.

 

[avangusva]

I may be bias because I'm enrolled in a 6-year program. Spending time in medical school doesn't only get you a M.D.

You learn a **** ton. You see different types of patients on different services. It isn't just spending two years (or more) of your life to get some letters behind your name.

 

[avangusva]

2 years they could be otherwise spent seeings pt’s was an omfs.

Interesting thought. Do you think your first two years of dental school, where you aren't seeing patients, was a waste of time? What about the four years of undergrad that you had to do? Surgery isn't carpentry.

 

[vellnueve]

Interesting thought. Do you think your first two years of dental school, where you aren't seeing patients, was a waste of time? What about the four years of undergrad that you had to do? Surgery isn't carpentry.

Undergrad was a colossal waste of time. The only thing it does is weeds people out.

 

[schmoob]

Interesting thought. Do you think your first two years of dental school, where you aren't seeing patients, was a waste of time? What about the four years of undergrad that you had to do? Surgery isn't carpentry.

The first two years of dental school are not optional, whereas 2 years of medical school for OMFS is optional.
And yes, my undergrad degree was a waste of time that was necessary to get into dental school.

 

[avangusva]

The first two years of dental school are not optional, whereas 2 years of medical school for OMFS is optional.

That's definitely true. I understand there is no difference in scope of practice. I wanted to highlight that the two extra years spent in medical school aren't viewed by everyone as a waste of time and effort.

It's a personal choice whether or not someone decides to pursue 4 vs 6 year track, and I didn't mean to open that debate up all over again. I have never met anyone who has done a 6-year program who regrets it. But, I have met people who did a 4-year program and found they needed the M.D. to pursue specific career aspirations.

 

[Anonymomfs]

That's definitely true. I understand there is no difference in scope of practice. I wanted to highlight that the two extra years spent in medical school aren't viewed by everyone as a waste of time and effort.

It's a personal choice whether or not someone decides to pursue 4 vs 6 year track, and I didn't mean to open that debate up all over again. I have never met anyone who has done a 6-year program who regrets it. But, I have met people who did a 4-year program and found they needed the M.D. to pursue specific career aspirations.

"Personal choice" is probably the most important descriptor. That MD stamp behind your name says you have a base of knowledge that is recognized by a national board, useful or not to your career.

I think single degree surgeons and even dentists who don't specialize become a medical resource to family and friends. However, I am much more confident in answering questions from family members, I am much more comfortable discussing their treatment and commenting on their conditions, than I was before medical school. I'm not done with residency yet. Maybe I would/will somehow acquire those abilities through seeing more OMFS patients, but I can't imagine that it would be likely.Whether it's right or not (Don't blame me, blame society), my MD throws the proverbial hammer down on a lot of discussions that my DMD can't, even with surgical training.

I moonlit during my time in medical school, so the cost of the extra two years was cut considerably. I still probably lost at least $300,000 (when accounting for moonlighting. $500,000 if not) in early lifetime production in the two extra years and about $80,000 in tuition. So I paid about $400k to feed my ego...and be slightly more comfortable if someone asks for a doctor on an airplane...and be slightly more comfortable if I ever need to deliver a baby...and be slightly more comfortable at the pediatrician's office when the time comes...and be slightly more comfortable recognizing when a family member needs medical attention...and be slightly more comfortable telling them that they will be fine...and slightly more comfortable navigating the corporate industrial medical complex if they are not.

All of the above is personal. There are single degree guys who are already comfortable with the stuff above. I know I wouldn't be. And as painful as it is at times to be at the bottom of the barrel as someone with more training than many of my team members during medical school, as painful as it is just waiting for someone to tell you you can get lunch or go home while they write their notes, as painful as it is to watch my dental school buddies graduate from their specialty residency programs three years earlier and buy new cars and wear rolexes (Just to be clear, I like cars and rolexes too. I'm no high sparrow), I don't regret it for a second.

 

[avangusva]

I don't regret it for a second.

I've never known anyone to say that they do. Good points.

 

[UncUndergrad1]

Classic im-just-a-dentist chest thumping going on here. You guys figured out how to order insulin yet?

Plastics Discharge bitch? You realize a medical student cant enter orders or write actual notes, right? No, you didnt. Because you dont know what you dont know, which is a lot...like a whole doctorate of knowledge.


Choose the path that suits you. If you want the knowledge, go 6. If you want to be done, go 4. If you can get into a great 4 but something like undergrad is holding you back from a great 6, go 4, etc. Chumps who write stupid **** on here about one vs the other are either trolling, like me, or just go to bad programs and need something to hold over others (bad 6 years flaunt their MD, bad 4 years speak as above). Choose what you WANT. I've never met a 6 year who regretted it. I've met 1 four year who did, because he wanted to do an oncology fellowship....but lets be honest, his life is infinitely better for having not proceeded into surg onc.

 

[UncUndergrad1]

I figured out how to orderset insulin when I saw the insulin ordering order and looked at their home meds.

Spoken like a true dentist.


Weird though. I did a prelim year on general surgery and never rotated on plastics or served as a "discharge bitch."

 

[vellnueve]

Haha I agree with you man. Choose the path that fits you is 100% right. It is a personal choice, there is no right or wrong.
I think it's silly for people to post I've never met a 4 or 6 that regretted it because I guarantee people have regretted from both paths. I have met those who regretted both paths.
You rotate on plastics as part of gen surg as pgy1 or higher, you may do a couple weeks as a med student. Pgy1 is different then a Med student, not sure where your comment is going. Med students can put in orders and write notes to be cosigned by residents.
I figured out how to orderset insulin when I saw the insulin ordering order and looked at their home meds.

You do realize that every program is different and the rotations you may be on can vary wildly between programs or even within the same program?

And that the responsibilities and privileges afforded medical students also varies wildly from site to site, program to program, and state to state?

To get a good idea of what you might encounter at a particular program, you have to ask people from that specific program. Blanket statements are useless.

 

[deleted783936]

This is all nonsense. The program you match at is automatically the best program in the country because of the sole fact that you are there. If you don't have that attitude going into the match, you'll end up really depressed if the results are not what you want.

Also, when your patient asks you about your training, are you gonna say you got the best/good training or you went to a subpar program? Ha. You know the answer.

 

[Mordecai]

Open disclosure first, I have both an MD and DDS. I'm currently a fellow attached to a program that has a 4 year residency. There's a lot of truth and good advice from previous posts. I'll reiterate from my perspective.

• The best OMS program is the one you get into. Apply yourself to the maximum wherever you get into. Residents at my program are exposed to full scope OMS. Those that apply themselves fully, leave with the operative skills equal (in my estimation) to anyone else 4-6 years. If you don't apply yourself you get a suboptimal result, and that is true whatever residency you do.
• The extra 2 years of med school come at a personal and financial cost. Weigh it well before you choose the 6 year pathway.
• Those who apply themselves fully at 6 years are exposed to the broader scope of patient care in general medicine and surgery. With the exposure comes a better understanding of other aspects of patient care not directly related to Oral/Head and neck surgery. It makes for better communication with other specialties when organising referrals or transfers, because you know exactly what colleagues are thinking and where they are coming from. It also makes it harder for MDs to attempt to "bamboozle the dentist with superior MD knowledge and intellect".It is also a more difficult play for them to pull the "you're only a dentist" card.
• Some fellowships may be more difficult without an MD. If that kind of fellowship is what you want, then consider an MD.

The attendings I work with are mixed MD/DDS and DDS only. They are all fantastic. I have thoroughly enjoyed working with the chiefs here too, who are as good as any I have met .Good luck.

 

[Bereno]

This is interesting to me - I have always tended to see myself as both a private practice guy as well as a academician so my take might be a little different than others'. As some said earlier in this thread, if a 6 year fits you then awesome, do it! However, I do also disagree with some of what has been said.

Disclaimer: I am a resident at a 4 year program, currently in my third year. My attendings are both 4 and 6 year guys, and a lot of the private practice guys that we interact with are also both. I know a lot of the 6 year guys who say it was a waste of time. Simply put. Understand that I am not saying it is, but I have definitely heard it, and heard it from more than a few people.

Here is my take: If you actively enjoy the education, then go for it - it is great education! If you have an ego and/or some inferiority complex and need the MD to feel better about yourself, go for it! If you want it just because you are curious about what it will give you, go for it! There is nothing wrong with getting the MD, nothing. Just understand the very real, guaranteed time and money costs. If you are OK with the costs, then enjoy what you are getting!

For those who say that they communicate better with other physicians - I have a hard time believing this one carries much value. At my program we spend a lot of time on anesthesia, trauma, SICU, ED, medicine, plastics, ENT, etc, and I am assuming most other programs do the same. Not only that, we are expected to work, act, and perform at the level of any other resident on those programs. We work our ass off to make sure we learn, learn fast, and work hard. We have earned their respect and are treated like colleagues. I have a hard time believing that doing med-student clerkships in these same areas would really change the way we communicate with these guys in any substantial way. Sure, you would have had a longer total exposure, but how much more benefit would it really have? In the end I am able to communicate with my physician colleagues comfortably and with confidence about our mutual patients. Furthermore, if someone goes into private practice, this will become an even more distant concern.

If you want to go into academics, then 4 vs 6 really has very little weight. You can easily do academics from either if that is your plan. There have been a lot of academic positions open at many different programs looking for people and many are having a hard time filling them. Also, a lot of people who go into fellowships and then into academics don't always operate in the area of their training. I have heard a number of people who are fellowship trained get frustrated because they don't have much of a case load and are still doing general OMFS procedures. Happens all the time. The fact is, if you are set on academics, you can get their going either route. Sure an MD might be a little easier, but two years and a few hundred thousand dollars easier? I'm not sure.

Anyway, sorry for the longer post, but I just felt that I wanted to give my anecdotal opinion haha

 

[Doc..]

Hey everyone,
I have a question, I was recently accepted to U of U and WVU for dental school. I hope to specialize in OMFS and I'm unsure which would be best to prepare me. I know that U of U doesn't rank their students which the doctors I work for (oral surgeons) said that may not be good because rank is so important. Which school do you guys think would be most beneficial?

 

[deleted923283]

Hey everyone,
I have a question, I was recently accepted to U of U and WVU for dental school. I hope to specialize in OMFS and I'm unsure which would be best to prepare me. I know that U of U doesn't rank their students which the doctors I work for (oral surgeons) said that may not be good because rank is so important. Which school do you guys think would be most beneficial?

You know what we're going to say already, don't you?

Which one is cheaper? (And by how much?)

 

[BluntForceTrauma]

Hey everyone,
I have a question, I was recently accepted to U of U and WVU for dental school. I hope to specialize in OMFS and I'm unsure which would be best to prepare me. I know that U of U doesn't rank their students which the doctors I work for (oral surgeons) said that may not be good because rank is so important. Which school do you guys think would be most beneficial?

Thankfully, OMFS candidates have to take "the great equalizer", the CBSE, so even if you're not ranked, they can still compare you to other candidates.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[sbdento]

Hey everyone,
I have a question, I was recently accepted to U of U and WVU for dental school. I hope to specialize in OMFS and I'm unsure which would be best to prepare me. I know that U of U doesn't rank their students which the doctors I work for (oral surgeons) said that may not be good because rank is so important. Which school do you guys think would be most beneficial?

I'd go to the cheaper school.

Work hard.

Do well in school and on the cbse.

Match omfs.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I'd go to the cheaper school.

And who do you think you are?! Big Hoss?!

Big Hoss

 

[W19]

I think single degree surgeons and even dentists who don't specialize become a medical resource to family and friends. However, I am much more confident in answering questions from family members, I am much more comfortable discussing their treatment and commenting on their conditions, than I was before medical school. I'm not done with residency yet. Maybe I would/will somehow acquire those abilities through seeing more OMFS patients, but I can't imagine that it would be likely.Whether it's right or not (Don't blame me, blame society), my MD throws the proverbial hammer down on a lot of discussions that my DMD can't, even with surgical training.

Interesting...