OMM Lab During Pandemic

[garrettp]

Every day, tens of thousands of Americans are diagnosed with new cases of COVID-19. Why am I spending two hours a week sitting in a crowded room and engaging in prolonged direct physical contact with classmates to manipulate hips and tailbones? Many everyday people are making huge sacrifices in their personal lives for the sake of public health. They're not eating at their favorite restaurants, they're not visiting grandma at the nursing home on her birthday, they're not going to their places of worship... Why is it okay for social distancing protocols to be ignored for the sake of learning alternative medicine techniques that a vast majority of physicians don't see as a valuable component of patient care?

(I know some people on SDN justify these sorts of situations by saying, "You should get used to it because when you're a practicing doctor, you'll be exposed to diseases all the time!" I'm a student, not a doctor. Why should I have to face the harmful consequences that come with being a doctor just because I'm on the path toward becoming one? It's like randomly sucker punching a boxer the day before his big debut bout and then saying, "It's okay that I almost dislocated your jaw because you should get used to it, since you're going to be boxing tomorrow!")

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[drducky.]

Because the ghost of AT Still will protect you from covid. And if you happen to get it, just manipulate the cranium and the virus will begone.

 

[deleted859689]

Every day, tens of thousands of Americans are diagnosed with new cases of COVID-19. Why am I spending two hours a week sitting in a crowded room and engaging in prolonged direct physical contact with classmates to manipulate hips and tailbones? Many everyday people are making huge sacrifices in their personal lives for the sake of public health. They're not eating at their favorite restaurants, they're not visiting grandma at the nursing home on her birthday, they're not going to their places of worship... Why is it okay for social distancing protocols to be ignored for the sake of learning alternative medicine techniques that a vast majority of physicians don't see as a valuable component of patient care?

(I know some people on SDN justify these sorts of situations by saying, "You should get used to it because when you're a practicing doctor, you'll be exposed to diseases all the time!" I'm a student, not a doctor. Why should I have to face the harmful consequences that come with being a doctor just because I'm on the path toward becoming one? It's like randomly sucker punching a boxer the day before his big debut bout and then saying, "It's okay that I almost dislocated your jaw because you should get used to it, since you're going to be boxing tomorrow!")

My school we have KN-95s, a face shield, have to fill out a COVID survey every time before coming on campus, our tables are more than 6 feet away from each other, and we have to sanitize our hands and tables when switching roles between partners. We went completely online towards the end of last block, and being in-person does help with learning the techniques that are on written exams and in practicals.

Don't know what your school is doing though. OMM is definitely questionable, but unfortunately we go to a DO school and not an MD school. Roll with the punches or get knocked out.

 

[RunsOnCaffeine]

I certainly don't use OMM anymore except on family/close friends, but a question for you to ponder: would you rather have all virtual learning and then get tossed into Boards (Including the PE) and Clinical OMM rotations without any hands on learning? Even for written exams, hands-on learning helped me crush the concepts, and it's free points on the exams if you understand it. I get that Covid is concerning, but schools are going through lengths to ensure as much safety as possible while still giving you an education.

As for the "alternative medicine" comment...well you chose a DO school, so you're going to have to deal with OMM - just the way it is.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Stop complaining. OMM isn't even hard. Yes it's BS and stupid, but who cares it's not difficult.

 

[garrettp]

My school we have KN-95s, a face shield, have to fill out a COVID survey every time before coming on campus, our tables are more than 6 feet away from each other, and we have to sanitize our hands and tables when switching roles between partners. We went completely online towards the end of last block, and being in-person does help with learning the techniques that are on written exams and in practicals.

Don't know what your school is doing though. OMM is definitely questionable, but unfortunately we go to a DO school and not an MD school. Roll with the punches or get knocked out.

I certainly don't use OMM anymore except on family/close friends, but a question for you to ponder: would you rather have all virtual learning and then get tossed into Boards (Including the PE) and Clinical OMM rotations without any hands on learning? Even for written exams, hands-on learning helped me crush the concepts, and it's free points on the exams if you understand it. I get that Covid is concerning, but schools are going through lengths to ensure as much safety as possible while still giving you an education.

As for the "alternative medicine" comment...well you chose a DO school, so you're going to have to deal with OMM - just the way it is.

I'm not saying that OMM shouldn't be a part of DO school curricula. When I was interviewing, I said that I looked forward to learning OMM and adding it to my arsenal for patient care, and that's how I truly felt. What I didn't say was that I loved OMM so much that I was willing to get seriously sick or to get my classmates (or their family members) seriously sick for the sake of learning it. There's nothing wrong with learning alternative medicine techniques to supplement standard medical education... but during a public health crisis? Eh, idk.

Stop complaining. OMM isn't even hard. Yes it's BS and stupid, but who cares it's not difficult.

Tbh, at my school, it's kinda hard. People have to practice on each other for hours and hours outside of class to get ready for practical exams. I'm glad to hear that it's easy at your school, though. This has nothing to do with the point I was making about OMM lab and the pandemic.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Tbh, at my school, it's kinda hard. People have to practice on each other for hours and hours outside of class to get ready for practical exams. I'm glad to hear that it's easy at your school, though. This has nothing to do with the point I was making about OMM lab and the pandemic.

Fair enough, I did overreact a bit. And hours of practice? That bites.

 

[RunsOnCaffeine]

I'm not saying that OMM shouldn't be a part of DO school curricula. When I was interviewing, I said that I looked forward to learning OMM and adding it to my arsenal for patient care, and that's how I truly felt. What I didn't say was that I loved OMM so much that I was willing to get seriously sick or to get my classmates (or their family members) seriously sick for the sake of learning it. There's nothing wrong with learning alternative medicine techniques to supplement standard medical education... but during a public health crisis.

I guess you answered my question (kinda) regarding that you don't think the hands-on learning is necessary to learn the material, which I think is difficult to master without, but maybe you can conceptualize it on your own...idk.

Personally I wouldn't think twice about it, but then again, I'm in residency and am around sick people all the time. Technically, a resident is still in training, so you're just going to need to figure out when some risk during training is going to be okay for you: Now? On clinicals? In residency? Not until you are a fully training attending? You need to figure that out.

Another counter argument would be, why should your peers lose out on hands on learning? If your school is making a valiant effort to minimize risk, then shouldn't your peers be able to learn?

If the answer is that you feel that you are in too grave a risk where you are despite the safety measures, then take a leave of absence and come back in a year.

 

[drducky.]

If it makes you feel better op, we have mandatory lectures still, not just lab. Count your blessings.

 

[garrettp]

If it makes you feel better op, we have mandatory lectures still, not just lab. Count your blessings.

Woahhh, that's rly messed up. I assumed that all schools made lectures purely online.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Since Covid is not going away, and we are just on the dawn of having theraputics available, all we can do is mitigate risk. We can all hide under the bed for the next year, or contimue on with our lives, mitigating risk the best we can. You can no more learn omm by watching it than you can learn how to take a history and perform a physical exam by watching. You will need to practice on a human. Your school will be responsible for reducing risk to the best of their abilities
Having taught OMM for 17 yrs, it nevere ceases to surpise me when students scrape and claw to get into a DO school, then go on to complain about having to learn OMM. I know Covid really has made things sucky for med students, we are all tired of the new normal. But, you signed up for it and we are all making the best of it. What are your options? LOA? Hang in there, we are all in this together.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

God DO schools are such garbage, I do not miss the constant quackery. Sorry OP, 3rd and 4th year are better. Just crush boards and ignore them. Can't believe they have you wasting time in the OMM lab (but I can, these admins are idiots).

 

[deleted859689]

God DO schools are such garbage, I do not miss the constant quackery. Sorry OP, 3rd and 4th year are better. Just crush boards and ignore them. Can't believe they have you wasting time in the OMM lab (but I can, these admins are idiots).

there are definitely garbage DO schools out there, but I quite like my school. Why didn't you go MD to dodge le quackery?

 

[VeggieMed]

God DO schools are such garbage, I do not miss the constant quackery. Sorry OP, 3rd and 4th year are better. Just crush boards and ignore them. Can't believe they have you wasting time in the OMM lab (but I can, these admins are idiots).

Geez I’d hate to have you as my doctor. Such a negative attitude.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Geez I’d hate to have you as my doctor. Such a negative attitude.

Go to a DO school and find out! Just keeping it real.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

there are definitely garbage DO schools out there, but I quite like my school. Why didn't you go MD to dodge le quackery?

I was "optimistic"! I've done very well and have some great interviews for the specialty I'm going into. But the NBOME, AOA, and DO institutions prove time and again that they don't have student interests in mind. It's naive to think otherwise. The single important factor for the first 2 years of medical school is getting a high board score--its how you get considered for interviews. Learning OMM and all that could be much more efficient and less cult-like and these DO schools should focus on board prep instead. This is coming from someone who honored OMM every year and actually had complements on my "OMM skills" in class and on rotation. I regret having to put so much time into something that has such low return. Go to an MD school and you'll be doing research instead--and now that step 1 is pass or fail, that will matter even more!

Really, I'm just empathizing with the OP here, while most of you are justifying why its ok for a medical student to be touching pelvises for hours a week.

 

[VeggieMed]

Go to a DO school and find out! Just keeping it real.

I just think it’s pretty disingenuous to disregard all of the patients with chronic pain that have been helped by OMM. Back pain is one of the most common complaints in primary care and OMM has evidence supporting it for treatment of low back pain. I don’t know about you but I would much rather have periodic OMM treatments than be on pain meds all the time. You said you were specializing though so I think that’s probably why you’re so against it. There won’t be any utility for it in your practice.

 

[RunsOnCaffeine]

I was "optimistic"! I've done very well and have some great interviews for the specialty I'm going into. But the NBOME, AOA, and DO institutions prove time and again that they don't have student interests in mind. It's naive to think otherwise. The single important factor for the first 2 years of medical school is getting a high board score--its how you get considered for interviews. Learning OMM and all that could be much more efficient and less cult-like and these DO schools should focus on board prep instead. This is coming from someone who honored OMM every year and actually had complements on my "OMM skills" in class and on rotation. I regret having to put so much time into something that has such low return. Go to an MD school and you'll be doing research instead--and now that step 1 is pass or fail, that will matter even more!

Really, I'm just empathizing with the OP here, while most of you are justifying why its ok for a medical student to be touching pelvises for hours a week.

I agree that OMM teaching could be more efficient (my med school used to boast about having some of the most hours of OMM out of all the DO schools), but to think that OMM is just a cult and generalize it to touching pelvises is ridiculous. Frankly my classmates that just complained about curriculum all the time were obnoxious and are people I don't really care to work with in the future. You aren't forced to go to a DO school.

 

[jmtbekm]

OP, DO schools have to do so many hours of in-person OMM instruction in order to maintain their COCA accreditation. Your admin has hoops to jump through just like the students.

 

[Goro]

Every day, tens of thousands of Americans are diagnosed with new cases of COVID-19. Why am I spending two hours a week sitting in a crowded room and engaging in prolonged direct physical contact with classmates to manipulate hips and tailbones? Many everyday people are making huge sacrifices in their personal lives for the sake of public health. They're not eating at their favorite restaurants, they're not visiting grandma at the nursing home on her birthday, they're not going to their places of worship... Why is it okay for social distancing protocols to be ignored for the sake of learning alternative medicine techniques that a vast majority of physicians don't see as a valuable component of patient care?

(I know some people on SDN justify these sorts of situations by saying, "You should get used to it because when you're a practicing doctor, you'll be exposed to diseases all the time!" I'm a student, not a doctor. Why should I have to face the harmful consequences that come with being a doctor just because I'm on the path toward becoming one? It's like randomly sucker punching a boxer the day before his big debut bout and then saying, "It's okay that I almost dislocated your jaw because you should get used to it, since you're going to be boxing tomorrow!")

Sadly, there is no good solution to this.

Would you prefer taking a LOA if your school can't give you the required classes to graduate, according to accreditation guidelines?

You're still going to have to take the Clinical Medicine labs as well. So don't focus solely on OMM lab.

You're not merely a student; you're a student doctor. There's a difference between you and Fine Arts grad student.

Wear the mask and wash your hands. Your Faculty, being older, are more at risk that you are.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The self loathing DO meme is a thing. It makes me sad that students work so hard to become a DO, then can't handle their success. They are the ones that will have Dr. A Bcdef on their name tag or lab coat, instead of A Bcdef, D.O.. I am beginning to believe that many DO students should have taken that gap year.

 

[danielblank313]

It's my first semester and I really have fairly little interest in OMM itself, but I really think changing the mindset when it comes to OMM makes the difference. If you go in feeling like the two hours is totally inconsequential to your medical career, it's going to suck way more than it really does.

My class and admin is taking COVID very seriously but we make the best of it. Our OMM lab partners are with our friends or roommates, or people we already have close contact with. I go with my lab partner every morning for a run. I can't say I'm endangering myself or anyone else anymore just because of OMM.

Maybe your school handles it differently. Whatever it is, you'll find yourself having much more peace about the process if you change the mind frame. You can't stop the rain you can just bring an umbrella. Might as well dance in it.

 

[garrettp]

My post wasn't meant to be anti-OMM or anti-DO. When I applied to DO schools pre-COVID, I was completely OK with going into OMM lab every week and practicing for hours with classmates. That's what I signed up for. Things have changed because of COVID, though, and now I have to wonder if the risks outweigh the benefits of having in-person OMM labs. Several of my classmates have already been tested positive at various points during the semester, and I'm worried about potentially visiting my family for the holidays...

Our OMM lab partners are with our friends or roommates, or people we already have close contact with. I go with my lab partner every morning for a run. I can't say I'm endangering myself or anyone else anymore just because of OMM.

I wish our OMM lab were run this way. We're assigned random classmates every lab. Also, 3rd and 4th years and faculty members circulate around the room.

 

[garrettp]

Sadly, there is no good solution to this.

Would you prefer taking a LOA if your school can't give you the required classes to graduate, according to accreditation guidelines?

You're still going to have to take the Clinical Medicine labs as well. So don't focus solely on OMM lab.

You're not merely a student; you're a student doctor. There's a difference between you and Fine Arts grad student.

Wear the mask and wash your hands. Your Faculty, being older, are more at risk that you are.

The good solution is to switch to a fully online curriculum, like the one most DO schools had last semester starting in April or so.

I don't want to take an LOA tbh. My loans have accumulated lots of interest already, and I don't really have anywhere to go or anything to do during an LOA.

Clinical med labs are wayyyy shorter than our OMM labs, and they teach skills that are fundamental to practicing medicine. They probably shouldn't be grouped in the same category as OMM tbh.

I'm a pre-clinical student doctor, but that doesn't mean that my health doesn't matter

I do wear a mask, and I do wash my hands. I agree that the faculty are more at risk than the students. Faculty should stay home instead of going into crowded rooms of students to teach non-essential supplementary techniques, and students should stay home so they don't pass the illness along to their parents or to some random old lady at the grocery store

 

[danielblank313]

I wish our OMM lab were run this way. We're assigned random classmates every lab. Also, 3rd and 4th years and faculty members circulate around the room.

Yikes, to me that makes no sense. Best of luck though, I definitely see where you're coming from. COVID sucks.

 

[Goro]

The good solution is to switch to a fully online curriculum, like the one most DO schools had last semester starting in April or so.

I don't want to take an LOA tbh. My loans have accumulated lots of interest already, and I don't really have anywhere to go or anything to do during an LOA.

Clinical med labs are wayyyy shorter than our OMM labs, and they teach skills that are fundamental to practicing medicine. They probably shouldn't be grouped in the same category as OMM tbh.

I'm a pre-clinical student doctor, but that doesn't mean that my health doesn't matter

I do wear a mask, and I do wash my hands. I agree that the faculty are more at risk than the students. Faculty should stay home instead of going into crowded rooms of students to teach non-essential supplementary techniques, and students should stay home so they don't pass the illness along to their parents or to some random old lady at the grocery store

I fully agree that anything lecture based should be online like at my school, but there

 

[hallowmann]

...
I wish our OMM lab were run this way. We're assigned random classmates every lab. Also, 3rd and 4th years and faculty members circulate around the room.

Wait, you're saying you rotate partners every lab? What the heck is that? Even pre-COVID we would only rotate partners every month. That makes no sense to force that much interaction between new sets of students every week. How many students are in each lab?

 

[garrettp]

Wait, you're saying you rotate partners every lab? What the heck is that? Even pre-COVID we would only rotate partners every month. That makes no sense to force that much interaction between new sets of students every week. How many students are in each lab?

The labs are held in an auditorium and include 50 or so students at a time. Each pair gets a single table, and the partners are picked at random for each lab from a sub-group of 10 or so people

 

[Angus Avagadro]

No one can answer your question but you. If you feel that stronfly about it, you will need to make a decision. The school cannot accommodate your request for no contact OMM. So, LOA? Interest is piling up in loans. Maybe that's the cost of security. Stay in school and protect your family over the holidays by distancing is another choice. Going to class and mitigating risk the best you can is another. I'm sure there are more. Life us full of choices, make good ones. Don't count on others, i.e., the school, the govt, etc., to provide the solutions, you will just be disappointed. Only you can make the best choice for you.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

My post wasn't meant to be anti-OMM or anti-DO. When I applied to DO schools pre-COVID, I was completely OK with going into OMM lab every week and practicing for hours with classmates. That's what I signed up for. Things have changed because of COVID, though, and now I have to wonder if the risks outweigh the benefits of having in-person OMM labs. Several of my classmates have already been tested positive at various points during the semester, and I'm worried about potentially visiting my family for the holidays...

I don't know, I'm not a fan of OMM at all but I think you're being a bit overdramatic. Life has to go on, it sucks but there's risk in every interaction you have and focusing on OMM lab versus your clinical medicine lab or any other activity you do doesn't really make sense. It makes zero sense to have OMM or clinical medicine labs online. Like mentioned, the alternative would be you delaying your graduation from school, which no one wants. Those of us in 3rd and 4th year are out there every day in hospitals, I've been in rooms with patients who later turned out to be COVID-positive. You're (likely, don't want to assume your age) a low risk population, as are most of your classmates. I wouldn't make such a big deal about this.

 

[choks]

Rule of artery is supreme

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

I think the key point here is that the irony of sitting in a crowded room of ~100 people doing something, in the grand scheme of medicine, essentially futile is frustrating in light of bigger picture where most medical professionals are saying we should "social distance". I'd be frustrated too. However, as a medical student, being on rotations is entirely justifiable as we all have to learn medicine somehow. Let's also point out how most interactions in hospitals occur with less than 5 people in a room. I feel safer in a hospital than a department store at this point.

But in terms of what the OP should do, there really isn't a good choice here. No, I don't think medical students should all be forced to learn OMM, and yes, it's absurd that you are all right up next to each other breathing and touching each other in light of the current circumstances. But the OMM powers that be will sooner die than admit that the large majority of the medical community regards their practices as pseudoscience or even admit that playing with sacrums in large groups might not be the best idea right now. Why don't they break you guys in to smaller groups to alleviate concerns? Has that come up at all?

Someone mentioned how OMM was statistically significant for back pain. But also recognize, it pretty much ends there in terms of OMM research. Please do read the other studies where for instance, exercise has a greater effect on lymphatic flow than the 'pump' techniques, and the many studies where 'sham omm' was not statistically different from 'actual OMM'. Let's keep it real guys.

 

[VeggieMed]

I think the key point here is that the irony of sitting in a crowded room of ~100 people doing something, in the grand scheme of medicine, essentially futile is frustrating in light of bigger picture where most medical professionals are saying we should "social distance". I'd be frustrated too. However, as a medical student, being on rotations is entirely justifiable as we all have to learn medicine somehow. Let's also point out how most interactions in hospitals occur with less than 5 people in a room. I feel safer in a hospital than a department store at this point.

But in terms of what the OP should do, there really isn't a good choice here. No, I don't think medical students should all be forced to learn OMM, and yes, it's absurd that you are all right up next to each other breathing and touching each other in light of the current circumstances. But the OMM powers that be will sooner die than admit that the large majority of the medical community regards their practices as pseudoscience or even admit that playing with sacrums in large groups might not be the best idea right now. Why don't they break you guys in to smaller groups to alleviate concerns? Has that come up at all?

Someone mentioned how OMM was statistically significant for back pain. But also recognize, it pretty much ends there in terms of OMM research. Please do read the other studies where for instance, exercise has a greater effect on lymphatic flow than the 'pump' techniques, and the many studies where 'sham omm' was not statistically different from 'actual OMM'. Let's keep it real guys.

Let me get this straight...
1. OMM helps with back pain
2. Back pain often results in prescription of pain meds
3. We are in the midst an opioid and pain med crisis

OMM reduces back pain thus reduces the need pain medication yet it is “futile”? You really can’t make this stuff up. Try to have a bit of empathy for the millions suffering from chronic pain who are becoming increasingly reliant on these pharmaceuticals by the day. Remember, part of the Hippocratic oath is “do no harm”.

 

[acapnial]

The self loathing DO meme is a thing. It makes me sad that students work so hard to become a DO, then can't handle their success. They are the ones that will have Dr. A Bcdef on their name tag or lab coat, instead of A Bcdef, D.O.. I am beginning to believe that many DO students should have taken that gap year.

OMM has reasonable utility here and there (musculoskeletal pain in people with chronically beat up joints), but the way OMM is taught, it's like it's designed to make people not take it seriously. In OMM lab it was never acceptable to examine someone and say they're fine, and the faculty would use an often repeated refrain, "there's always dysfunction". In every other field of medicine, you're specifically taught not to convince yourself a healthy person is sick, and needs treatment in absence of a clear indication.

So we mostly healthy 20 and 30 something medical students would show up, feel fine before treatment, find an odd vertebra that was a teensy bit restricted in motion in some direction, treat, and for the most part, would feel the same after. We'd check the vertebrae we just treated, find it had a little better motion, be assured we did great, that we treated the dysfunction.

Basically in the role of the patient, we would feel fine, get diagnosed with something, get treated, still feel fine. It can't be very surprising that many students walk away feeling like OMM is not a legitimate therapeutic tool and don't become enthusiastic about it.

Also although my white coat does say Dr. Acapnial instead of Acapnial, DO, I want to point out that's because that's just how they do it at my hospital, no one asked me how I wanted my name laid out. I'm still proud to be a DO!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You are right. Most young doctors dont have significant dysfunction. Remember, it's a spectrum, mild, moderate, severe. When someone hobbles into the office saying they can't stand up straight and have trouble getting out of a chair, they might have a rotated pelvis. When you examine you may discover distinct findings, if you know where to look. In otjer words ,you'll know it when you see it. Just gotta look.
As far as your lab coat, maybe the hospital doesnt want to insult the Doctorate of Nurse Practitioner. Anyway, you can always get a name pin with Acapanial, DO on it. I wore one in the OR with my name and degree for years.

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Show me a meta analysis study proving that OMM is therapeutic for back pain and reduces healthcare cost.

 

[Neopolymath]

Let me get this straight...
1. OMM helps with back pain
2. Back pain often results in prescription of pain meds
3. We are in the midst an opioid and pain med crisis

OMM reduces back pain thus reduces the need pain medication yet it is “futile”? You really can’t make this stuff up. Try to have a bit of empathy for the millions suffering from chronic pain who are becoming increasingly reliant on these pharmaceuticals by the day. Remember, part of the Hippocratic oath is “do no harm”.

I personally love when premeds invoke Burnett's law on 4th year DO students. Great stuff!!!

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Let me get this straight...
1. OMM helps with back pain
2. Back pain often results in prescription of pain meds
3. We are in the midst an opioid and pain med crisis

OMM reduces back pain thus reduces the need pain medication yet it is “futile”? You really can’t make this stuff up. Try to have a bit of empathy for the millions suffering from chronic pain who are becoming increasingly reliant on these pharmaceuticals by the day. Remember, part of the Hippocratic oath is “do no harm”.

I admire your optimism, but trust me it just doesn't quite work that way. I had an OMM rotation where my preceptor (someone at the 'top' of the OMM hierarchy in academia) admitted that at best OMM only alleviates that type of chronic pain for a few days. If that's the case, the true crime of osteopathy is that they are teaching it to the wrong audience. Very VERY few DO physicians decide/are able/want to offer OMM as a modality daily in their clinics--because they are physicians and have way more pressing/specialized work they have to accomplish every day. If OMM is such a useful modality, why do >90% of DOs not see fit to use it? And on the other side, why don't the true osteopathy loving DO's find a way to make it its own field like it is in Europe? So people that want to do it can learn it? There's a lot of inconsistency in the whole process.

I do wish there was a magic treatment for chronic pain. For some patients it MAY be OMM. But if that is the case, there isn't near enough infrastructure to support that type of patient. The DO world has failed to make OMM useful in both scientific and practical ways and they are so blind that they can't see how irrelevant they have made it. Trust me, I get that the alternative stuff like OMM, chiropractics (basically OMM), and acupuncture has its role in the weird world of chronic and unidentifiable pain. Much of it is likely placebo/human contact that is the treatment, and I'd take placebo any day over opioids. However, OMM really isn't the magic cure-all they'd like you to believe it is. Just read the studies on it. I've heard hundreds of baseless claims by OMM faculty by now, and they really do more harm than good by believing their techniques somehow stand outside of science.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

I personally love when premeds invoke Burnett's law on 4th year DO students. Great stuff!!!

haha--It's all good. I once was a stubborn lad that thought OMM could be a cure all magic "extra tool in my tool belt" (*cringe every time I hear that one).

@VeggieMed But yeah, I'd recommend not worrying too much about OMM and just do your best to get into an MD school. You won't believe how many doors that will open for you! You have to work you A** off 10x harder than MDs to be seen as almost equal to them in the residency selection process. Also, your degree is always a tiny elephant in the room as a DO in many academic institutions! Granted by the time you're in residency its more of a funny joke that you had to pretend to like this weird 19th century bone wizard while juggling learning actual medicine. It's all comedy once you're more removed from it.

 

[VeggieMed]

haha--It's all good. I once was a stubborn lad that thought OMM could be a cure all magic "extra tool in my tool belt" (*cringe every time I hear that one).

@VeggieMed But yeah, I'd recommend not worrying too much about OMM and just do your best to get into an MD school. You won't believe how many doors that will open for you! You have to work you A** off 10x harder than MDs to be seen as almost equal to them in the residency selection process. Also, your degree is always a tiny elephant in the room as a DO in many academic institutions! Granted by the time you're in residency its more of a funny joke that you had to pretend to like this weird 19th century bone wizard while juggling learning actual medicine. It's all comedy once you're more removed from it.

Well I most likely want to go into primary care then do an integrative medicine fellowship somewhere like UofA Tuscon. So I don’t think that DO would hinder me in any way for that path. I’ve shadowed OMM/NMM docs and I’ve even spoken to MDs that say they wish they had learned OMM. I understand where you are coming from and it makes sense because there is probably only a very limited portion of physicians that could even practically use OMM. I have both MD and DO interviews so we’ll see where that takes me I guess.

 

[VeggieMed]

I personally love when premeds invoke Burnett's law on 4th year DO students. Great stuff!!!

I’ve seen enough overprescribing docs in this country to know that it’s an issue. Curious, what would you do for a patient that comes in with chronic low back pain?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I admire your optimism, but trust me it just doesn't quite work that way. I had an OMM rotation where my preceptor (someone at the 'top' of the OMM hierarchy in academia) admitted that at best OMM only alleviates that type of chronic pain for a few days. If that's the case, the true crime of osteopathy is that they are teaching it to the wrong audience. Very VERY few DO physicians decide/are able/want to offer OMM as a modality daily in their clinics--because they are physicians and have way more pressing/specialized work they have to accomplish every day. If OMM is such a useful modality, why do >90% of DOs not see fit to use it? And on the other side, why don't the true osteopathy loving DO's find a way to make it its own field like it is in Europe? So people that want to do it can learn it? There's a lot of inconsistency in the whole process.

I do wish there was a magic treatment for chronic pain. For some patients it MAY be OMM. But if that is the case, there isn't near enough infrastructure to support that type of patient. The DO world has failed to make OMM useful in both scientific and practical ways and they are so blind that they can't see how irrelevant they have made it. Trust me, I get that the alternative stuff like OMM, chiropractics (basically OMM), and acupuncture has its role in the weird world of chronic and unidentifiable pain. Much of it is likely placebo/human contact that is the treatment, and I'd take placebo any day over opioids. However, OMM really isn't the magic cure-all they'd like you to believe it is. Just read the studies on it. I've heard hundreds of baseless claims by OMM faculty by now, and they really do more harm than good by believing their techniques somehow stand outside of science.

This is a copy of my post from Jan 2020

I have been listening to medical students trash OMM for a couple years now without any feedback. Remember pre meds read SDN and might actually think you know what you are talking about. It is not all pseudoscience. Mainstream journals aren't in the habit of publishing pseudoscience.


Annals of Internal Medicine: 2004, 141; 432-439
Manipulative Therapy in Addition to Usual Medical Care for Patients with Shoulder Dysfunction and Pain;
Gert J.D. Bergman, et al.

American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, (ACOG Green Journal), Am J Obstet Gynecol 2010; 202:43.e1-08
Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment of Back Pain and Related Symptoms during pregnancy: a Randomized Controlled Trial
John C. Licciardone, D.O. et al.

Annals of Internal Medicine; 21 December 2004; Vol 141: Number 12; pp. 920-928.
A Clinical Prediction Rule to Identify Patients with Low Back Pain Most Likely to Benefit from Spinal Manipulation: A validation Study
Maj John D. Childs, PhD, et. al.

Annals of Thoracic Surgery: 2017 Jul;104(1): `45-152. doi: 10.1016/j.athoracsur.2016.09.110. Epub 2017 Jan18
Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment Improves Heart Surgery Outcomes: A Randomized Controlled Trial.
Racca V, et. al.

These are some articles published in peer reviewed mainstream journals showing positive correlations with OMT. These articles don't represent a cure for cancer or for the common cold, but suggest OMT was beneficial in their study and like anything, more work is needed. Students having trouble wrapping their arms around cranial and Chapmans points is understandable. Too many students have very firm opinions about OMT and should reserve them until they have actually treated patients, not classmates, with OMT. Once again, these mainstream journals are not in the habit of publishing pseudoscience. Whew, got that off my chest

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Well I most likely want to go into primary care then do an integrative medicine fellowship somewhere like UofA Tuscon. So I don’t think that DO would hinder me in any way for that path. I’ve shadowed OMM/NMM docs and I’ve even spoken to MDs that say they wish they had learned OMM. I understand where you are coming from and it makes sense because there is probably only a very limited portion of physicians that could even practically use OMM. I have both MD and DO interviews so we’ll see where that takes me I guess.

Integrative medicine is great--it's the scientific answer to 'alternative' medicine. I can't wait to see where that field goes myself. Yeah, take MD if you can! It'll just make everything easier. You never know if you change your mind on specialties and what not, and with step 1 becoming P/F, it'll be even weirder for DOs.

 

[Neopolymath]

I’ve seen enough overprescribing docs in this country to know that it’s an issue. Curious, what would you do for a patient that comes in with chronic low back pain?

I'm giving you **** for your hot take about the other poster being a bad doctor you wouldn't want because he said much of DO school is garbage. The reality is that it is. That's not particularly controversial. I don't need to rehash that here. I do need you to gain some insight into the landscape of DO school before you come making claims about someone's professional acumen. Your reaction to his very generalized post is passionate but ultimately misguided. Don't worry. If you go to DO school you will understand in a few years at the latest. I hope your passion translates to productivity. You will do well if so.

You are framing your argument poorly. Did anyone say the only options is percocets or OMM? What if I told you that some people do neither? What if I told you that I don't care if someone wants to do some OMM for lumbago but that doesn't mean that I'm pro OMM or the current DO education landscape? Your argument lacks nuance and isn't even related to what he originally said. That's ok because you don't yet have the perspective to understand why the other poster said what he said.

 

[Neopolymath]

This is a copy of my post from Jan 2020

I have been listening to medical students trash OMM for a couple years now without any feedback. Remember pre meds read SDN and might actually think you know what you are talking about. It is not all pseudoscience. Mainstream journals aren't in the habit of publishing pseudoscience.


Annals of Internal Medicine: 2004, 141; 432-439
Manipulative Therapy in Addition to Usual Medical Care for Patients with Shoulder Dysfunction and Pain;
Gert J.D. Bergman, et al.

American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, (ACOG Green Journal), Am J Obstet Gynecol 2010; 202:43.e1-08
Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment of Back Pain and Related Symptoms during pregnancy: a Randomized Controlled Trial
John C. Licciardone, D.O. et al.

Annals of Internal Medicine; 21 December 2004; Vol 141: Number 12; pp. 920-928.
A Clinical Prediction Rule to Identify Patients with Low Back Pain Most Likely to Benefit from Spinal Manipulation: A validation Study
Maj John D. Childs, PhD, et. al.

Annals of Thoracic Surgery: 2017 Jul;104(1): `45-152. doi: 10.1016/j.athoracsur.2016.09.110. Epub 2017 Jan18
Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment Improves Heart Surgery Outcomes: A Randomized Controlled Trial.
Racca V, et. al.

These are some articles published in peer reviewed mainstream journals showing positive correlations with OMT. These articles don't represent a cure for cancer or for the common cold, but suggest OMT was beneficial in their study and like anything, more work is needed. Students having trouble wrapping their arms around cranial and Chapmans points is understandable. Too many students have very firm opinions about OMT and should reserve them until they have actually treated patients, not classmates, with OMT. Once again, these mainstream journals are not in the habit of publishing pseudoscience. Whew, got that off my chest

For me the argument is that these shouldn't be things all DOs learn. In fact honestly, they should just teach physical therapists all of this. Almost all DOs use ZERO OMM. It interrupts the day filled with more important care. It should be an elective at best. It doesn't fit the role of physician in the modern era. DOs are physicians first and foremost so this should be an elective for those into hardcore FM.

That also doesn't even change the fact that a lot of it is complete horse**** fake. That part of the argument speaks for itself to anyone that isn't a true believer.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

So you think all DOs shouldnt learn OMM? This is interesting. That's like saying DPMs shouldn't learn about feet. Adult psychiatrists shouldnt have to learn anything about pediatrics. Sorry you think you made the wrong choice.

 

[Neopolymath]

So you think all DOs shouldnt learn OMM? This is interesting. That's like saying DPMs shouldn't learn about feet. Adult psychiatrists shouldnt have to learn anything about pediatrics. Sorry you think you made the wrong choice.

Those aren't even remotely appropriate analogies. Did you really just say the argument is the same as DPMs not learning about feet? That's literally their entire job whereas OMM is the job of like 0.1% of all physicians' careers. A DO is a physician first and foremost in modern America. This isn't 1900. OMM is wholly unrelated to acting as a physician and does not increase knowledge and abilities to integrate other areas such as learning core specialties during 3rd year for competency as a graduating student. The purview of OMM falls under the workflow of physical therapy if anything and should reside there with evidence based techniques as it already does. It should be an elective for the less than 5% DOs interested in it to help them in primary care. All good MD and DO students look at the patient holistically and may learn OMM as they desire for their training and job. It's literally just hazing at this point otherwise.

The only people making the wrong choice are those keeping DOs "separate but equal" and holding the degree holders back because of a fake identity crisis.

If you believe OMM is what defines the identity of a DO then no point in responding to this post. I'm guessing that's likely given you are a retired anesthesiologist who does OMM.

 

[pvgirl93]

I'm not saying that OMM shouldn't be a part of DO school curricula. When I was interviewing, I said that I looked forward to learning OMM and adding it to my arsenal for patient care, and that's how I truly felt. What I didn't say was that I loved OMM so much that I was willing to get seriously sick or to get my classmates (or their family members) seriously sick for the sake of learning it. There's nothing wrong with learning alternative medicine techniques to supplement standard medical education... but during a public health crisis? Eh, idk.



Tbh, at my school, it's kinda hard. People have to practice on each other for hours and hours outside of class to get ready for practical exams. I'm glad to hear that it's easy at your school, though. This has nothing to do with the point I was making about OMM lab and the pandemic.

maybe cause you see it as alternative medicine its not.

Those aren't even remotely appropriate analogies. Did you really just say the argument is the same as DPMs not learning about feet? That's literally their entire job whereas OMM is the job of like 0.1% of all physicians' careers. A DO is a physician first and foremost in modern America. This isn't 1900. OMM is wholly unrelated to acting as a physician and does not increase knowledge and abilities to integrate other areas such as learning core specialties during 3rd year for competency as a graduating student. The purview of OMM falls under the workflow of physical therapy if anything and should reside there with evidence based techniques as it already does. It should be an elective for the less than 5% DOs interested in it to help them in primary care. All good MD and DO students look at the patient holistically and may learn OMM as they desire for their training and job. It's literally just hazing at this point otherwise.

The only people making the wrong choice are those keeping DOs "separate but equal" and holding the degree holders back because of a fake identity crisis.

If you believe OMM is what defines the identity of a DO then no point in responding to this post. I'm guessing that's likely given you are a retired anesthesiologist who does OMM.

I think this is part of the problem it does help you relate the pain people are having, for people in chronic pain. Sure chapman point maybe a little hinky but most people will have back pain in their lives and you can actually make a difference. Clearly you don't have very good teachers

 

[Goro]

 

[esob]

Let's reign this thread in people and stay on track.

The thread is not:

- An OMM bashing fest
- A D.O. bashing fest
- A place for people to make snarky remarks that are essentially iterations of the above-listed topics.


The OP has a question and it is entirely acceptable to offer personal opinions that address the question. However, it should be answered with at least a modicum of tact and the topic should stay true to the question.

TLDR: stay on topic and play nice.