SDN members see fewer ads and full resolution images. Join our non-profit community!

OMT and Chiropractics

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by Student247, Apr 21, 2002.

  1. Student247

    Student247 Member 7+ Year Member

    52
    0
    Sep 28, 2001
    I was curious to know how extensively the OMT techniques are taught in DO schools. That is, I was wondering if DO's learn as much, more, or less manual spinal manipulation etc., as Chiropractors do? Also, say a DO wanted to place the majority of his private practice emphasis on OMT techniques, what would be the best way to do this? How would he/she adverstise, given that the public isn't as familiar with Osteopathic techniques as they are with Chiropractic techniques?
     
  2. SDN Members don't see this ad. About the ads.
  3. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc 10+ Year Member

    6,014
    294
    Aug 25, 2001
    Taking an Away team....
    most DO schools require around 600 hrs of omt class in addition to principles in osteopathic med classes. this is more than what is taught in chiro programs. as a DO you can do a residency or fellowship in omt if that is of interest.there is a good program at unecom. good luck
     
  4. Student247

    Student247 Member 7+ Year Member

    52
    0
    Sep 28, 2001
    In addition to the 600 hours of OMT training one may recieve in medical school is a person required to do a residency in OMT in order to practice OMT?
     
  5. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc 10+ Year Member

    6,014
    294
    Aug 25, 2001
    Taking an Away team....
    NO, any DO graduate should be able to practie OMT. the residencies and fellowships are for those desiring additional training in specialized techniques, etc.
     
  6. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    emedpa, do you even have a clue as to what you're talking about??? I am a chiropractor going back to DO school and I can tell you that KCOM, who has the most extensive OMM curriculum, dedicates 210 or so hours to OMM training. At Palmer Chiropractic College we had over 520 hours of strictly technique classes, not including electives on the subject, or physiotherapy classes, and not including our last year in the cllinic where we were required to perform a minimum of 212 adjustments to graduate (along with radiology and physical exam requirements). That is the only way that chiropractors treat patients, day in and day out, so
    don't start spreading the typical medical propaganda ignorance on something you know absolutely nothing about.

    Student247, I think it's great that you want to use OMM b/c I can tell you in all honesty that it works, whether you're a chiro or a DO. It works where traditional medicine fails, and I have seen some amazing things over my 8 years in practice. Why do I want to go back to be a DO if it works so great? Because I want to do even more for my patients. I want to be their complete family physician and you can beat your butt I'm going to continue to use both fields. DO's may not have the advertising and population recognition that chiros do but they have the medical contacts that chiros don't have. That's where you get your patients. If you have any questions about it, please e-mail me and I'd be happy to talk to you about it. ([email protected]).

    Treybird
     
  7. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    Wow, someone needs to calm down.

    I was a PT prior to Osteopathic Medical school ( I am graduating in a month) and I can tell you the techniques learned in PT school are ALMOST identical to Osteopathic. As far as chiropractic...its a totally different hokey ball game there.
    You will get your fill of OMT, but you will find that the other science classes will likely place a large time burden on your OMT skills. The point of the majority of Osteopathic Medical education is NOT to manipulate, manipulate, manipulate (like chiros), but rather integrate your physical and mental diagnostic skills into a complete form of medicine...whether that be surgery, pharmacology, the addition of a "smidgen" of OMT, or nothing at all.
     
  8. bobo

    bobo Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    254
    0
    Feb 15, 2000
    PCOM has an hour, maybe two hours of OMM lecture a week. They are very poorly attended, despite veiled threats from professors. Many of the lectures are so bad that people just don't give a flip whether they go or not. Everyone crams for the exam (ie skims the notes the night before) yet somehow the vast majority of the final grades are clumped together in the mid 80's. Lab is an hour and a half a week all trimester except for the last 2 weeks when practicals are held. Many labs are spent goofing around without learning anything.

    In short, at PCOM - OPP gets no respect.

    That being said, there are a few gurus that choose to apply themselves and put the time and effort in to become very good with their hands.
     
  9. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc 10+ Year Member

    6,014
    294
    Aug 25, 2001
    Taking an Away team....
    Treybird-please accept my apology. I was only repeating what I have heard from several DO's I work with. I did some research and found that yes, the DO school omt average is around 200 hrs or so. my understanding is that chiros are limited to spinal manipulation while DO's can manipulate other portions of the body besides the spine. is this correct? thanks-e
     
  10. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    emedpa, apology accepted, no hard feelings. As a chiropractor I am constantly having to defend what seems to be mucho misinformation out there. Each state is different in what they allow but in most states chiropractors adjust every area of the spine AND extremities. We do it all. We can x-ray and interpret all areas of the body and use CT, MRI's, lab analyses, etc. to help provide the best primary care we can. Obviously we don't treat organic diseases so when a chiro finds one he refers that patient on for further medical care. We are trained to diagnose and refer what is not within our scope of practice. If a chiro doesn't, then it's malpractice. If he tells his patient that he can cure liver disease with an adjustment than that is malpractice and he should be lose his license if he doesn't refer that patient on. Any more questions, feel free to ask.

    Mr. happy clown guy As far as chiropractic...its a totally different hokey ball game there. .......Nothin' hokey about it my man, not if you know what you're doing. Maybe when you get some real life experience you'll see that.

    Treybird
     
  11. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    When I get some experience? What, with racking and cracking?? That is no defense for chiro philosophy! I was in rehab for years prior to medical school and had to constantly deal with a large percentage of chiros constantly using physical therapy WITHOUT a license (and billing for it), and using the legal system (attorneys) to get referrals for the "neck check". There is no "rocket science" to a lumbar roll etc regardless of the practitioner of the manipulation.
    I have seen good results with OMT...especially muscle energy techniques (since I come from the muscular based/movement based theories of PT). But I have seen some of the "most hokey" theories and treatment procedures by chiropractors...there is no doubting that! From megavitamin therapy, to aromatherapy, to daily manipulation, to subluxation theories, to chelation therapy, to odd energy theories...chiros have done their hardest to illigetimize their own profession.

    As far as your ability to read and interpret true radiographic tests for true pathology...leave that to the board certified radiologists and the primary care to the board certified primary care docs.
     
  12. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    Chiropractic philosophy, at it's heart, is the same as osteopathy. Do a little investigating and you will see it's true. I am licensed to perform all physical therapy in most states. Sorry, clown, it's covered under a DOCTOR of Chiropractic license. You are not a doctor. Deal with it. All you do is repeat the same tired AMA-antitrust lingo but that's passe. Most MD's and DO's realize the role we play in healthcare, as evidenced by my referral sources. The medical profession has come around, and most are on excellent terms with local chiros.

    You know NOTHING about chiropractic; the training, the philosophy, or the practice of. I can't discuss this with you because you don't have any rational frame of reference on the subject, only emotionally biased vomitus. If you want to discuss your misunderstandings with fact (not what you've heard, not what you think...fact), then let's have at it. You call muscle energy work science? Well, where's the research? Give me one double blind, peer-reviewed study that proves it works. I can show you many, many on lumbar adjusting and low back pain (some even from Spine and JMPT magazines...medical journals). You want research on the efficacy of chiropractic...the science and research on chiropractic, then give me your e-mail address. Try to act like a professional. Some day you may have to work with chiropractors, or worse, you may have to work for one. One of my best friends is a DO and he refers his adjustment patients to me. Why, because he knows that I am competent and effective.

    I do feel sorry for your patients because your arrogance and ignorance make you dangerous. I understand that you are a student, fresh out of PT school...full of fire and brimstone, but understand that you are just professionally immature and need some real-life experience. By the way, aren't PT's fighting with all professions for some kind of identity (i.e. athletic trainers, chiros, massage therapists, etc.) So, I repeat:

    ......Nothin' hokey about it my man, not if you know what you're doing. Maybe when you get some real life experience you'll see that.
     
  13. PTjay

    PTjay Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    308
    0
    Apr 27, 2001
    west hartford, CT, USA
    I'm just curious as to how a DC can be licensed to practice PT. Unless you have a PT degree you cannot (ethically) charge for physical therapy. "The patient/client management elements of examination, evaluation, diagnosis, and prognosis should be represented and reimbursed as physical therapy only when they are performed by a physical therapist.", "Physical therapy is defined as the care and services provided by or under the direction and supervision of a physical therapist. Physical therapists are the only professionals who provide physical therapy. Physical therapist assistants-under the direction and supervision of the physical therapist-are the only paraprofessionals who assist in the provision of physical therapy interventions."

    The American Physical Therapy Association Guide to Physical Therapist Practice Second Edition.

    If you are charging for PT and do not hold a PT degree you are misrepresenting your practice.
     
  14. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    A chiropractor, by law in most states, can evaluate and rehabilitate any musculoskeletal problems. Again, there are state by state variations. Some states are limited only to the spine, while others are much more broad. How can we do it? The same way an MD can theoretically perform manipulation. It's just inherent in the license. That's what being a doctor is. We are doctors, and, by law, primary care givers as well.

    No, I'm not misrepresenting myself. I have an undergrad degree in exercise phys and so I'm very well trained in the area of musculeskeletal rehab. We have different billing codes than PT's do even if we're doing the same thing. If you have issues with this, call your local health professions bereau and find out for yourself. I'm only the messenger. Chiropractic be definition is spinal rehabilitation.

    TB
     
  15. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    Wow, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed...but let's get a few things straight.

    First and foremost, double blind studies?? Well you can't do a double blind study in manipulation (you can't blind the MANIPULATOR), but you can to a subject blinded study if you do sham thrust, but those studies are poorly done based on low power of the study (few participants) and the ethical issue of sham thrust. There are a few OUTCOME studies, but those have had conflicting results. Chiros have long long LONG been known for shoddy science and questionable academia. Instead of denying this, pushing for REFORM should be your argument. There is a difference between a written paper and good solid science based research!!
    Yes, there is muscle energy research , but it falls under the name of PNF (proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation) or "contract relax" etc techniques. Not in abundance, but I was simply giving you an example. I do both PNF and manipulation in practice. I have no problems with either IN LIMITATION. I firmly believe that manipulation (if needed) should NOT NEED to be performed as a basis of treatment, and should NOT be needed more than a few times...postural correction and restrengthening is necessary.

    That is not the issue...
    One issue is that in MANY MANY states, chiropractors ARE NOT regulated by the state board of medical affairs, only by their OWN board (as in the state of Missouri). Allowing them to practice ANY procedure they are deemed trained (prostate exams, gyn exams, and physical therapy)...this is purely wrong and is absolutely unethical. How do I know this? I owned a copy of the Medical Board guidelines, and I spoke with a member of the board. What is ALLOWED is one issue and what is ETHICAL is another.
    As a PT I practiced in Indiana (YOUR STATE), and wittnessed wide spread abuse of the "neck check" and overutilization of services and unethical billing practices.
    I am not saying that Physicians or Therapists are immune to ethical problems, rather, it has plagued the field of Chiropractic for decades...you should be the first to admit this. If you are going to be a competent physician someday, you must first acknowledge procedures or theories that simply do not hold up (ie chelation therapy, subluxation theories, myofascial unwinding, etc). No one is immune to bad science, but it is poor form to say that it doesn't exist.

    As far as "just out of PT school...sir I graduated in the early 90's, and I am graduating from medschool in a month. Let us not play the condescending clinical experience BS game...that doesn't hold water either.
     
  16. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    Yes, chiropractors are not regulated by the medical board, nor should they be. We're not medical doctors. However, before you start to go off on how chiropractic is unregulated, please, do the research. We are very regulated. In Indiana, as you SHOULD know, we are all regulated by the Indiana Health Professions Bureau. That is the umbrella organization under which the medical board and chiropractic boards operate. Every chiropractic state board is regulated by whatever parent health professions committee regulates that state. Learn how your government works for change.

    Do you want studies from Spine magazine supporting manipulation as an effective tool? Simple yes or no question. Spine is a medical journal, not a case study. Manipulation is manipulation whether it's from a chiro or a DO. If you want to argue me on this, I will send you a page on the physiology of manipulation. I've seen both professions do the same thing, so don't try and tell me they're different. If you think that, then you don't understand chiropractic at all. A subluxation exists. It may have a different name in medicine, but it exists. How many drugs and medical procedures are performed every day that work, but the exact mechanism is not known yet? How you can even slam chiropractic when half of medicines used today are not properly tested causing patient death from complications is beyond me. How about deaths from complications in surgery? Chiropractic has a very long history of not supporting our profession with experimentation but that has changed dramatically over the past 20 years. I suggest you pick up a medical journal once in awhile. Palmer College just received a 25 million dollar research grant from the NIH, but you would already know that since you're an expert on Chiropractic. Show me a research study on PNF. You're nothing but a glorified massage therapist and since you worked in Indiana, you know that IN doesn't trust you enough to allow you direct access. I wonder why that is??? Hmmmm...try a manipulation in Indiana as a PT again and trust me, you'll lose that license. Hopefully, before you seriously damage someone.

    Do you know how chiros are trained? Have you been through Chiropractic school? You are such an expert on what a chiro is qualified to do? Maybe you should run the medical boards or national exams. Again, you are ignorant on the subject. Go pick up a school catalog and see what clases are taught before you start flapping your gums. Go take a chiro practical state exam, see how you like it. See how well you do, since you know everything we do already. You don't know squat about ethics because if you did you would get some education on a subject before you start slamming it. You're nothing but a PT puppet. You can't even think for yourself. You have no ethics. If you had ethics you would try to work with all the primary health care professions. Again, I hope none of my friends become your patient.

    All I hear from you is rhetoric. I've not heard one bit of evidence showing that you know anything about what we do, our training, our scope of practice, etc. Nothing. Would you like me to send you some literature? Or do you just not read anything that might conflict with your fragile paradigm? You make it sound like we're the only profession slammed by widespread abuse. Hmmm, yea, I guess you don't see NEARLY as much of that in medicine or PT. Of course not. Maybe you should open your eyes and admit that your profession has just as many problems as mine. But then again, just do what you seem to always do and close your eyes and stick your head in the sand. It's what you seem to do best. Good luck, doc.
     
  17. Stillfocused

    Stillfocused Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    153
    0
    May 25, 2001
    Chicago
    Cool thread.

    I like all the passion.........

    A few questions questions.

    Are PTs formally trained in manipulation beyond techniques similar to muscle energy?

    Are PT formally trained to do HVLA, strain-counterstrain, fascial ligamentous release, facilitated positional release, OCF, BLT, or lymphatics techniques?

    Don't Chiropactors mainly do HVLA techniques that are focused on the spine. I thought that the cornerstone of Chiropactic was a belief that all disease is the result of "sublaxations" of the spine.

    Isn't there a big differnce between Osteopathic HVLA and Chiro HVLA? Isnt Osteopathic HVLA focused on restoring range of motion and not exceeding pysiological barriers?

    Aren't chiropactors more focused on static positional changes (hence all the X-rays)? Don't they routinely exceede barriers? Hence, all the CVA resulting from chiropactic C-spine manipulation.

    Don't these differnces make OMT more gentle, safer and holistically focused on treating the whole person?

    I am fairly familiar OCF. And, I have looked at a couple Chiro SOT books. SOT techniques look crude and rough when compared with OCF. DeJarnette's presentation seems to be a muddled, watered down version of Sutherland. What do you think of SOT?

    Clown, could you please restrain yourself from slamming OCF here. We have already had that discussion..........
     
  18. Stillfocused

    Stillfocused Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    153
    0
    May 25, 2001
    Chicago
    Oh yeah,

    Its Chiropractic (like Osteopathic or Allopathic) not "Chiropractics."
     
  19. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    For those of you interested in fact and not emotionally skewed rhetoric, please click on the following links:

    CHIROPRACTIC BELIEF SYSTEMS
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter2.htm</a>
    CHIROPRACTIC TRAINING
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter3.htm</a>
    LICENSURE AND LEGAL SCOPE OF PRACTICE
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter5.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter5.htm</a>
    CHIROPRACTIC IN THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter7.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter7.htm</a>
    CONTENT OF PRACTICE
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter8.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter8.htm</a>
    CHIROPRACTIC RESEARCH
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter9.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter9.htm</a>
    The Manga Report - A Canadian study performed by a Ph.D.
    <a href="http://www.chiropractic.on.ca/main.html" target="_blank">http://www.chiropractic.on.ca/main.html</a>
    BIOLOGICAL RATIONALE FOR POSSIBLE BENEFITS OF SPINAL MANIPULATION
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter10.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter10.htm</a>
    BENEFITS AND RISKS OF SPINAL MANIPULATION
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter11.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter11.htm</a>
    SYNOPSIS, RESEARCH PRIORITIES, AND POLICY ISSUES
    <a href="http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter12.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter12.htm</a>

    Consortial Center of Chiropractic Research
    <a href="http://www.c3r.org/" target="_blank">http://www.c3r.org/</a>
    Federation of Chiropractic Licensing Boards
    <a href="http://www.fclb.org/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fclb.org/index.htm</a>
    Palmer Research
    <a href="http://www.palmer.edu//PCCR/Efforts.htm" target="_blank">http://www.palmer.edu//PCCR/Efforts.htm</a>
    Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research
    <a href="http://www.jvsr.com/" target="_blank">http://www.jvsr.com/</a>

    <a href="http://www.nuhs.edu/" target="_blank">http://www.nuhs.edu/</a>
    <a href="http://www.fcer.org/html/research/Info/Retrospective.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fcer.org/html/research/Info/Retrospective.htm</a>
    <a href="http://www.essex1.com/people/cates/accc.html" target="_blank">http://www.essex1.com/people/cates/accc.html</a>

    I will gladly answer intelligent, genuine questions about what I do, but I won't argue with someone not open to learning something new. Let's talk based on facts, not conjecture.

    Stillfocused, I can't comment on SOT because it wasn't taught in the cirriculum at Palmer. I don't use it so I don't know anything about it. Just as there are many drugs to treat the same thing there are many techniques to treat the same thing. Some are post graduate. They all seem to work.

    Hope this helps some of you.

    TB
     
  20. PTjay

    PTjay Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    308
    0
    Apr 27, 2001
    west hartford, CT, USA
    If you look back to my post you'll see that I said Chiropractors or anyone else for that matter cannot bill for "PT" and that you are misrepresenting your practice if you say you provide PT without being a PT. It's true that Chiros and PTs may perform many similar techniques but just as I cannot say that I am doing chiropractic work you should not claim to be providing physical therapy.

    PTs do receive manipulation training (Kaltenborn is what I'm currently studying in Musculoskeletal) however we do not use the high powered thrusting movements that chiropractic uses. This puts us more on par with the Osteopaths.
     
  21. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    Stillfocused:

    I don't practice using x-rays as the only criteria for adjustment, neither do most chiros. I rely on
    motion palpation and save the x-rays for ruling out pathology. You also look at the patient's health history, ortho/neuro exams, subjective complaints, etc. I'm interested in the motion of the joint because how well a joint moves determines its health. We adjust into the paraphysiological space becase that is what is needed to restore passive ROM. It's like unsticking a fixed cam. You need to move beyond the fixation to restore joint mobility. The subluxation theory states that a fixed joint will interfere with nerve flow. How different is that from DO philosophy that spinal misalignments interefere with the blood supply? It's six, half-dozen, or another. The subluxation complex theory just describes the neruological, vascular, muscular, and osteological processes involved in a spinal mislignment. If one is going to be a DO and does not subscribe to this than maybe they should think about some other profession. Chiropractic is a science, and art and a philosophy and some descibe what they do inphilosophical terms. That doesn't negate the science behind what they do, it just gives them a base for understanding why they do what they do. Without philosophy, you have nothing. Ask Dr. Still.

    TB
     
  22. PTjay

    PTjay Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    308
    0
    Apr 27, 2001
    west hartford, CT, USA
    An interesting link that I found, not saying I stand by or support it but it's what is out there.

    <a href="http://www.chirobase.org/" target="_blank">http://www.chirobase.org/</a>
     
  23. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    Let me make this clear...I have NEVER insulted you personally, yet you ATTACK ME. I state that NO PROFESSION IS IMMUNE TO ETHICAL PROBLEMS, yet you state that I only blame chiropractic.

    I can tell by the way you argue, that you take things SOOO personally, you feel threatened. Don't.
    First of all, don't you DARE compare a chiropractic college to university education...apples and oranges fella. Regardless of "hours" taught...HOURS DO NOT EQUATE to quality of material/testing/professors etc.

    read this quote from a Kansas City Paper
    "The Missouri Court of Appeals has overturned a large damage award to nineteen 1997 graduates of Cleveland Chiropractic College (CCC), in Kansas City, who had charged that their education had been inadequate. The suit, filed in Kansas City, Missouri, in 1999, charged that the school had failed to provide adequate teaching as promised by promotional literature and school representatives [1]. The suit sought a total of $22 million for breach of contract, unjust enrichment, and fraud. The allegations included:

    During the recruiting process, school representatives said that the clinical experience they would receive would be invaluable in learning to diagnose various ailments and that the school would provide an "ample" supply of patients to complete their clinical requirements. Similar representations were made in literature used to recruit them.
    Implicit in these representations was a promise that the students would not only earn a chiropractic degree but would acquire sufficient skills in the diagnosis and treatment of physical ailments to enable passage of their home state licensing examinations.
    When the students approached their final year and eligibility to work in the Clinic as student interns, the school's faculty told them that, to meet the minimum clinical experience required for graduation, they would have to recruit patients from among their friends, family members, neighbors, co-workers, and, in some cases, complete strangers.
    Although the Clinic director told one student that the school had never promised to provide patients, some student overheard admission representatives making the very same representations to prospective students touring the clinic.
    Although some students had patients "passed down" to them by graduating interns, many students who received no "pass-down" patients and were not from Kansas City were unable to recruit enough patients to graduate on time. School representatives encouraged these students to "market themselves" in the community and create their own "mini-practice" by using the school's spinal screening equipment to interest patients in the Clinic. One student who found that this was not enough was advised by a faculty member to "cold-call" prospective patients listed in the Kansas City telephone directory.
    While solicitation and marketing efforts enabled students to eventually meet the quantitative requirements for clinical service, they were not able to develop the diagnostic skills necessary for chiropractic practice because most of the recruited individuals were generally symptom-free and did not need any major chiropractic adjustment.
    Adding insult to injury, the school profited handsomely or had the fees paid by the patients or by the students themselves on the patients' behalf for any treatments (whether needed or not) that the patients received.
    As a result of inadequate instruction, the plaintiffs were not adequately prepared to pass their board examinations and were unable to enter into a chiropractic practice due to lack of basic experience in diagnosis. Virtually all of the plaintiffs found it necessary to take review and preparatory courses (at additional cost) before sitting for their respective board examinations. Some felt that their practical experience was so lacking that they were forced to educate themselves as unpaid interns under the tutelage of licensed chiropractors in their home states. This deficiency was a direct result of the school's failure to provide an "ample volume and variety of patients" to allow the students to relate their classroom education to real-world patients who had acute ailments and symptoms. "

    This is widespread...it may not be you, you appear to be intelligent (though extrememly defensive), but it DOES HAPPEN.
    Regarding PNF research...its out there in abundance, though most of it is regarding stroke rehab and shoulder rehab, these are just examples:

    Nonoperative treatment of rotator cuff tears
    Mantone JK - Orthop Clin North Am - 01-Apr-2000; 31(2): 295-311
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE



    Palliative treatment for stroke
    Volpe BT - Neurol Clin - 2001 Nov; 19(4); 903-920



    Monopolar radiofrequency energy for arthroscopic treatment of shoulder instability in the athlete.
    Fanton G S - Orthop Clin North Am - 01-Jul-2001; 32(3): 511-23, x
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE


    The young dancer.
    Solomon R - Clin Sports Med - 01-Oct-2000; 19(4): 717-39
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE

    Shoulder impingement.
    Morrison DS - Orthop Clin North Am - 01-Apr-2000; 31(2): 285-93
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE



    Posterior shoulder instability.
    Petersen SA - Orthop Clin North Am - 01-Apr-2000; 31(2): 263-74
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE



    The painful shoulder in the throwing athlete.
    Altcheck DW - Orthop Clin North Am - 01-Apr-2000; 31(2): 241-5
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE



    Thermal versus suture treatment of symptomatic capsular laxity.
    Savoie FH 3rd - Clin Sports Med - 01-Jan-2000; 19(1): 63-75, vi
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE


    Histologic evaluation of the glenohumeral joint capsule after the laser-assisted capsular shift procedure for glenohumeral instability.
    Hayashi K - Am J Sports Med - 1999 Mar-Apr; 27(2): 162-7
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE


    Chronic patellofemoral pain syndrome: alternatives for cases of therapy resistance.
    Schneider F - Knee Surg Sports Traumatol Arthrosc - 01-Sep-2001; 9(5): 290-5
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE

    Effects of the use of cross-education to the affected side through various resistive exercises of the sound side and settings of the length of the affected muscles.
    Arai M - Hiroshima J Med Sci - 01-Sep-2001; 50(3): 65-73
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE


    Effect of warm-up and flexibility treatments on vertical jump performance.
    Church JB - J Strength Cond Res - 01-Aug-2001; 15(3): 332-6
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE


    [The rehabilitative therapy of patients with osteochondrosis of the cervical spine and manifestations of hypermobility bv means of therapeutic physical exercise]
    Epifanov VA - Vopr Kurortol Fizioter Lech Fiz Kult - 2000 Jan-Feb; (1): 8-11
    From NIH/NLM MEDLINE


    Regarding "direct access" in Indiana, I dont
    think PT's SHOULD have direct access, nor do I believe DC's should. Neither have the appropriate differential diagnosis capability...DC's have it because of typical indiana politics (they had it first and early).
    Yeah, I know a bit about the politics of Indiana...I spoke in front of the Indiana House of Representatives Public Health Committee regarding this issue. Yeah, I may know "just a bit".
     
  24. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    PTJay, <a href="http://www.chirobase.org/" target="_blank">http://www.chirobase.org/</a> is a small fringe group that is not representative of Chiropractic at all. It seems to be a favorite group that medical groups like to use when trying to slam Chiropractic b/c they feel that it justifies unfounded accusations. It would be like saying that the KKK represents Christianity. Go look at the websites that truly represent our profession.

    I dont think PT's SHOULD have direct access, nor do I believe DC's should. Neither have the
    appropriate differential diagnosis capability.


    ...trust me when I say that our education FAR exceeds that of a PT. That's why the law has designated us Doctor, and you...not. I noticed you haven't checked out the curriculum of Palmer. I agree that any school that doesn't live up to it's claims should be held accountable, but you only gave an example of one school, not a whole profession. You're damn straight that I take what I do personally. When someone decides they think they know how I should practice, having no concept of what a Chiropractic education is, yes, I take that personally. You have no concept of a DC education b/c you've never gone through the school, so you can't...and until you do, you're accusations and rants are baseless. I've worked with PT's before, and we've had a good relationship as long as they respect what I do. I respect what you do and I've never decided what limits should be placed on your profession (other than spinal manipulation). You honestly have no idea what you're talking about regarding our training. But why am I trying to convince you, you'll never get it. And you're right, I've been defensive when I don't need to be. Many professionals realize the expertise of chiropractors in what they do, and what a benefit chiropractic is when all else has failed. How can you know? You've never been in my shoes or seen the things I have in practice. My record of successes is all I really need to prove that it works. Maybe you've come in contact with some bad docs, and maybe they left a bad impression on you. Well, nothing I can do about that. I guess it's kind of sad that you're so shut off and not even willing to open you're mind to the fact that maybe you are wrong. But, again, that's not my issue. Good luck in the medical profession. Perhaps someday our paths will cross again.

    TB
     
  25. PTjay

    PTjay Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    308
    0
    Apr 27, 2001
    west hartford, CT, USA
    more research

    J Manipulative Physiol Ther 1991 Mar-Apr;14(3):199-208 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

    The reliability of reliability.

    Haas M.

    Research Department, Western States Chiropractic College, Portland, Oregon 97230.

    Forty-five original articles addressing the subject of examiner reliability were reviewed to determine if the findings were adequately substantiated by the statistical analyses and experimental designs employed by the authors. Only 10 studies were determined to have properly supported conclusions, while an additional three studies contained correct conclusions by coincidence. Eight investigations had invalid designs and three contained claims that were contradicted by the author's findings. Half the studies were found to have conclusions that were based on inappropriate or inconclusive statistical analysis. To date, the research presented in the chiropractic literature cannot substantiate claims concerning the reliability of any diagnostic instrumentation or palpatory procedures commonly employed by chiropractic physicians.
     
  26. PTjay

    PTjay Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    308
    0
    Apr 27, 2001
    west hartford, CT, USA
    I promise this is the last article I will post here but you told me to check the chiropractic information myself. I did so and found an article from the Los Angeles College of Chiropractic which I believe would be representative of chiropractic.

    J Manipulative Physiol Ther 2001 Oct;24(8):514-9 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


    Unsubstantiated claims in patient brochures from the largest state, provincial, and national chiropractic associations and research agencies.

    Grod JP, Sikorski D, Keating JC Jr.

    Los Angeles College of Chiropractic, Whittier, California, USA.

    OBJECTIVE: To determine the presence or absence of claims for the clinical art of chiropractic that are not currently justified by available scientific evidence or are intrinsically untestable. DESIGN: A survey of patient education and promotional material produced by national, state, and provincial societies and research agencies in Canada and the United States. METHOD: Patient brochures were solicited from the 3 largest provincial, 3 largest state, and the 3 largest national professional associations in the United States and Canada. Similar requests were made of 2 research agencies supported by the national associations. Brochures were reviewed for the presence or absence of unsubstantiated claims. RESULTS: Of the 11 organizations sampled, 9 distribute patient brochures. Of these 9 organizations, all distribute patient brochures that make claims for chiropractic services that have not been scientifically validated. CONCLUSION: The largest professional associations in the United States and Canada distribute patient brochures that make claims for the clinical art of chiropractic that are not currently justified by available scientific evidence or that are intrinsically untestable. These assertions are self-defeating because they reinforce an image of the chiropractic profession as functioning outside the boundaries of scientific behavior.

    Point taken.
     
  27. dmon

    dmon Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    21
    0
    Oct 30, 2000
    PTjay,

    How did you arrive at the conclusion that the article you cited above (J Manipulative Physiol Ther 2001 Oct;24(8):514-9) is representative of the chiropractic profession? Is one journal article all it takes for you to form a belief about an entire profession?
    What assessment criteria did you use while critically appraising this article?
     
  28. PTjay

    PTjay Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    308
    0
    Apr 27, 2001
    west hartford, CT, USA
    First of all I'd like to state that I believe Chiropractic does indeed have it's place. What I don't believe is that Chiropractors should provide false information about what their treatments can do for others or that they should claim to provide physical therapy when in fact they do not.

    I believe the article cited to be representative of the misleading claims that the chiropractors make. The study was performed by students of chiropractic and the brochures under review were those distritbuted by the largest professional chiropractic associations in the United States and Canada. I may have misrepresented my point as you have taken my statements to be all encompassing of the chiropractic profession. I do not believe that chiropractic is all together useless and I do not believe that all chiropractors misrepresent their abilities, but if the largest organizations are providing bogus information it makes me seriously question the ethicality of the profession or at least those who lead the organizations. These organizations should be striving to represent the profession honestly with research to back up their claims.

    With that said, no I do not rely on a single article to formulate assumptions about an entire profession. If you would like to see more of the journal articles that I have reviewed I can cite them for you.

    I selected this article because it is in a journal that was cited by a previous poster. Unfortunately I only have the abstract which was posted earlier and therefore cannot go into the validity and realibility of the methods used in this research. I also do not know the criteria or operational definition of what is considered untestable or not justified by scientific evidence (but I can make an educated guess and I'd prefer to spend my time studying for my exams). However, since the journal was provided by the above poster I felt the article would at least satisfy him.

    Back to studying McKenzie.
     
  29. drusso

    drusso Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    6,197
    1,589
    Nov 21, 1998
    Over the rainbow
    I couldn't resist entering the frey...

    First let's not forget that osteopathy (the forerunner of osteopathic medicine) predates chiropractic in the US by several decades. Palmer visited Kirksville and observed several classes and enjoyed conversations with AT Still, before sneaking across the border to set-up his own school in Iowa. This is well known.

    <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11620051&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11620051&dopt=Abstract</a>

    While the biomechanics of manipulation is the same regardless of who performs it (MDs, DOs, DCs, PTs, LMTs, etc) there are important differences between OMT practiced by DO's and SMT practiced by chiropractors. First, chiropractors use SMT within the framework of a "nerve model" to remove subluxations. These subluxations are believed to actually exist and affect whole-body physiology via interaction with the CNS.

    Historically, DO's used OMT to improve blood flow and fascilitate tissue waste-product removal; this is AT Still's, "rule of the artery is supreme." As a whole, DO's gave up this etiological theory decades ago, though some hold onto it for its heuristic value. Now, DO's use OMT to remove somatic dysfunction, broadly defined as "impaired or altered function of the somatic system; its skeletal, arthroidal, or neurovascular related elements. It is believed that by removing somatic dysfunction, a host may better recruit its own healing mechanisms. These approaches (removing somatic dysfunction versus removing subluxations) are not the same.

    More importantly, DO's are trained as medical doctors and use OMT within a much broader context than chiropractors do. There are DO's who only have inpatient OMT practices using OMT to treat hospitalized patients with pneumonia, post-operative ileus, chronic ventilator patients, non-cardiac chest pain. Again, being medically-trained allows them to treat patients in the hospital and get paid by Medicare, something chiropractors cannot do.

    I think that there are other important advantages to being a medically-trained manipulator in terms of ones experience with more complicated diseases, inpatient hospital care, sicker patients, etc. In many European countries, non-medical osteopaths and chiropractors do not hold professional doctorate degrees. They are more like master degree level PT's. They practice under the supervision of a medically-trained physician. I think the same could be arranged here in the US. Chiropractic schools could stop awarding a professional doctorate degree, and start awarding a Master's degree and chiropractors could work under the supervision of a medically-qualified practitioners as do licensed PT's.

    I think the issue of medically versus non-medically trained manipulators is analagous to having PhD psychologists prescribe psychotropic medicines (as is happening in New Mexico and some other states). Yes, it is possible to teach a non-physician to prescribe, but is it good medicine? Certainly there are very, very gifted non-medical manipulators, but is this safe and effective patient care?

    DO's were so concerned with keeping up with MD's that the profession let chiropractors sneak off with manipulation. The fact that the chiropractic profession has evolved and thrived the way it has is due to, in part, a failure of organized osteopathic medicine to stand-up 100 years ago and forecibly argue that manipulation *IS* the practice of medicine. The MD's would have probably thrown a fit over that assertion since they denied any utility of manipulation at all, but no one could predict the way things would end-up: MD's and DO's would learn to play nice-nice, and DC's would make a tidy bundle popping people's necks and backs, and we would still not know what works and why.

    Now, we have a situation where a variety of different practitioners are treating patients with a variety of different manipulative therapies and no one knows what good any of it is for anyone. Just like studies of psychotherapy have shown that psychotherapy is, in general, effective for a vareity of psychological problems, these same studies have also shown that are few differences between specific "brands" of psychotherapy (psychoanalytic versus interpersonal versus cognitive behavioral). I think studies will eventually show the same general benefits for manipulation---regardless of its particular brand name.

    Chiropractors keep pushing for a broader scope of practice: Manipulation under anesthesia, access to hospitals, prescription privileges, the right to practice "primary care", etc. Unfortunately, these issues will probably not be decided by science, but by politics and influence. I think organized medicine (MDs and DOs) need look critically at this situation.
     
  30. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    My only reply to the above comments (that I have not already said)...is that I agree.
    Medicine thrives best when it is a compassionate science. A self-critical entity that anylizes itself while never forgetting the vital components of the human touch.
    We must ALWAYS hold a critical eye.
     
  31. dmon

    dmon Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    21
    0
    Oct 30, 2000
    drusso,

    Exactly what do you think organized medicine should do about those chiropractors?

    I think you're sending out the wrong message to the future osteopathic physicians that frequent this site. They don't need to worry about what other professions are doing or not doing--they need to be worrying about their own profession.

    Instead of watching what others are doing, DOs should be focusing on their own agenda. You stated that "DO's were so concerned with keeping up with MD's that the profession let chiropractors sneak off with manipulation." So instead of suggesting that organized medicine should look critically at the chiropractic situation, I think they would be better served by actually doing something productive--why not encourage more basic science and clinical research into OMT (before the chiropractic community continues to dominate the field of research into manipulative therapy).
     
  32. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    Quite honestly, I believe the opposite to be true.

    I believe that osteopathic medicine has moved in the forefront of both manipulation and medicine. The public is seeing more DO's in large university hospitals in diverse fields, and at the same time, realizing that DO's offer OMT much like what chiropractors do...giving patients GREATER trust in DO's (knowing that they are fully licensed physicians that graduated from medical school and passed 3 sets of boards and certification exams) and pushing DC's further into the fringe of untested/untrusted medicine.

    It is the duty of science and medicine to inform the public of dubious products and treatments. Regulation allows for higher and better standards and attempts to ensure public safety. It is absolutely necessary to look at the claims and practices of "homeopaths" "naturopaths" and any practitioner that makes outrageous claims.

    Putting on blinders makes one oblivious to ones surroundings.
     
  33. dmon

    dmon Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    21
    0
    Oct 30, 2000
    Mr Happy Clown Guy,

    I believe you are mistaken about who is at the forefront of manipulative therapy. Ask any current D.O. student how popular manipulative therapy is at their school and how often they plan to utilize it in their practice. Go out onto the street and ask an average layperson about what type of doctor performs manipulation of the spine--a majority will say chiropractor. Ask an average layperson if they know that D.O.s perform manipulation--they will likely reply, "D what?" My point is that there is a lot of work to be done before DOs are to re-gain recognition as being in the forefront of manual medicine.
     
  34. gbey

    gbey Junior Member 7+ Year Member

    22
    0
    Jan 9, 2002
    Whenever I visit the DO site [almost always], I see a lot of self-defensiveness, arrogance, and I think inferiority complex. Are all DO students low achieving, no-confidence part of society or what? I was leaning toward Osteo schools, but the behavior of most students on this forum scare me. I think I will go for MD, and join the confident people there.... Do you blame me? You people do not have any self-confidence at all? Just read and compare the DO/MD forum and you will know what I am talking about. But for the record, in case it helps boost your confidence,
    it is not the two letters behind your name that will determine what kind of doc you are, it is how good edu. you gate, regardless of the particular path you take...

    Bye, may God grant all of you confidence and trust!
     
  35. drusso

    drusso Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    6,197
    1,589
    Nov 21, 1998
    Over the rainbow
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dmon:
    <strong>drusso,

    Exactly what do you think organized medicine should do about those chiropractors?

    I think you're sending out the wrong message to the future osteopathic physicians that frequent this site. They don't need to worry about what other professions are doing or not doing--they need to be worrying about their own profession.

    Instead of watching what others are doing, DOs should be focusing on their own agenda. You stated that "DO's were so concerned with keeping up with MD's that the profession let chiropractors sneak off with manipulation." So instead of suggesting that organized medicine should look critically at the chiropractic situation, I think they would be better served by actually doing something productive--why not encourage more basic science and clinical research into OMT (before the chiropractic community continues to dominate the field of research into manipulative therapy).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of couse there should be more basic and clinical research into OMT and manipulation in general! I'm not sending a message to the contrary. What I am trying to get more medical students to appreciate is the role that POLITICS plays in local, state, and national health care policy. It is my observation that medical students, as a whole, tend to be pretty niave about politics. They spend so much time studying science and playing the game and jumping through all the right hoops to get into medical school that they end up creating a very small, artificial worldview.

    If you visit a law school, on the other hand, you will see law students studying very hard, but also committing almost an equal amount of time to various political activities. Why? They know that their profession really is not driven by sound logic and justice---it's driven by politics. Medical students tend to get involved in political activities only very reluctantly. I also think that medical student tend to look down their noses at classmates who are very politically involved with school and state medical issues.

    Chiropractors, PAs, NPs, CRNA's, psychologists, etc will expand their practices rights not on the basis of sound science, but on the basis of fundraising, influence, and politics. Do you know that chiropractors belong to their professional organizations and support their state political action committees (PACs) in much higher rates than MD/DOs? Did you know that chiropractors and CRNAs give a larger percentage of their income to political issues than MD/DOs?

    Are you a member of AMSA, the AMA, the AOA or some other organized physician group that supports political action? Why not?
     
  36. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    Gebe,

    People discuss things, people sometimes even argue. Yes, the world is full of imperfection...but this discussion is about OMT and chiropractics, probably something you know little about. The discussion has nothing to do with insecurities...but if you are one of those people that look at a Jaguar in the parking lot and say "I wonder what he is insecure about or compensating for"...then I guess you will say what you want.

    With regard to asking the public...I HAVE asked patients. And when I tell them I am a DO (even in the emergency department) they say "hey yeah, you guys can crack backs too!" The general response to chiropractors is with a raised eyebrow and a chuckle under the breath.

    I encourage all medical students to join PAC's, to stay affiliated with the AMA, AOA, and their professional organizations.
     
  37. dmon

    dmon Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    21
    0
    Oct 30, 2000
    RE: "With regard to asking the public...I HAVE asked patients. And when I tell them I am a DO (even in the emergency department) they say "hey yeah, you guys can crack backs too!" The general response to chiropractors is with a raised eyebrow and a chuckle under the breath."

    --mr happy clown guy

    Mr Happy,

    I think you're only fooling yourself. Of course your PATIENTS, friends, and family are going to know what a DO is and does; but I'm talking about your average person--in a BIG city--will not know what a doctor of osteopathy is or does.

    Also, it doesn't represent the profession very well by adding comments such as "The general response to chiropractors is with a raised eyebrow and a chuckle under the breath." It just makes you appear unprofessional and childish.
     
  38. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    My friend, I spent my last 2 years in allopathic hospitals where perhaps only 10% of the docs are DO's...my patients have no idea what kind of doctor or medical student I was. I was even told by a residency director (MD) that he looks forward to having DO's in his residency because "they can manipulate and do everything else".
    It certainly is not a problem of mine that Chiropractors have been their own worst enemy regarding shoddy science and claims that are outrageous. This is a self-regulatory issue that has obviously failed on the part of chiropractic. Until they clean themselves up, they will not gain the recognition that they so desire!
     
  39. dmon

    dmon Junior Member 10+ Year Member

    21
    0
    Oct 30, 2000
    Shoddy science? I think you need to keep current with the literature--the chiros are performing a majority of the published research (indexed in Medline) regarding manipulation. You should really get your facts straight before comment on something. I hope your not that careless when it comes to issues with your patients.
     
  40. JenMac

    JenMac Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    158
    0
    Apr 23, 2002
    Minnesota
    WOW! What a huge variety we got going on here!
    I'm a little nervous to enter myself, being a first year chiro student, but hey, what the hell.
    First of all, chiropractors all have a very different sense of what the medicine should entail. One bad DC or one bad idea gives us all a bad name, when most of the chiros out there are very skilled and competent. Yes, we diagnose, and are excellent at it. Yes, we take a four part board exam series, that is required to get liscened. Yes, we read radiographs, and as for "leaving radiology to the radiologists", look at a wonderful text called Essentials of Skeletal Radiology, second edition, by Yochum and Rowe. Yochum is a DC! And he teaches at the CU Health Sciences Center (yes, a med school, as well as CCC). Not only that, he has been named faculty of the year there for the past 5 out of 6 years, has been the only person to win it more than twice, and the only person to win it twice in a row. The man obviously knows his stuff. I would actually be surprised if you haven't already used this text.
    Moving on, chiropractors can not be generalized as they have been so often in this thread. There are a group of them who would like to prescibe meds and do minor surgery...there are groups on the opposite side of the spectrum who believe that only adjusting C0/C1 and C1/C2 will cure all of your problems, but the general direction of chiropractic is a holistic health approach that treats the patient as a whole, not the disease. Should we be generalized? Well, it would make things a whole lot easier, but since there are SO MANY different ideas of what works and why, we just can't seem to come to an agreement on anything. And, yes, this hurts us as a profession, but it doesn't mean that manipulation works any less effectively. The fact is, we just don't know enough about the nervous system and all of the body/mind interactions... and these things are very hard to test....especially using randomized controlled double blind studies. But just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Granted, lack of proof doesn't ensure existance either, but at least the possibility is there, and we aren't just riding on possibilities, we have seen things happen in clinical practice.
    That is why chiropractic has lasted as long as it has. Not because osteopaths "let" us have manipulation, but because we believe in the treatments, and so do our patients. And we possess a greater skill in manipulation. Of course you can always learn the biomechanics of an adjustment and say you know how to adjust. But every body is different, and you're not always going to get the same response with the same adjustment. Adjusting is like a golf swing, you have to practice, practice, practice. As was mentioned before, we get the most experience is school, and better yet, our adjusting classes are very well attended. Enthusiastically, even.
    Almost lastly, the reason we are so active in our organizations is to ensure that more legislation doesn't get passed to take away our right to be doctors. We are more skilled than PT's and we deserve the recognition.
    Also, Treybird, if you are still out there...do you still have to go through all the basic science program of being a DO? I was just curious how that worked since I have heard of a lot of DC/DO, MD/DC combo degrees lately. Hasta
     
  41. JenMac

    JenMac Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    158
    0
    Apr 23, 2002
    Minnesota
    By the way, the research that is being done, is being done by chiros, and chiros and osteos together.
     
  42. Freeeedom!

    Freeeedom! Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    698
    2
    Feb 21, 2001
    I am a ninja
    First of all, there are no DC/DO combo programs...at least none that are in the United States and are accredited; that is a ridiculous notion. Everyone that enters medical school must do the first two years of academics...regardless of previous degree (PhD, PT, MS, RN, PA, NP, DC).

    Second, Mr. Happy is correct in saying that Chiropractic has been its OWN WORST ENEMY! By poor self-regulation, low admission standards, lack of true research (scientific medically reviewed literature) of any sort, and simply OUTRAGEOUS and silly claims in chiropractic promotional literature!
    Chiropractors do themselves NO FAVORS by supporting Anti-vaccination claims, subluxation theories as cure-alls, treating ADHD with herbs or manipulation, chelation therapies, manipulation of children for autism or learning disabilities, and the jokes of applied kinesiology!
    True, there are great and well meaning DC's that are truely interested in musculoskeletal health, but there are soooo many that make untested, unscientific claims...that it really hurts your profession.
    I too was a PT prior to medical school, and I saw my own fair share of questionable chiropractic practices...too many to state. The bottom line is that chiropractic will always be on the edge of health care, the area with the naturopaths and the homeopathic practitioners. Blame yourselves not others.
     
  43. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    236
    0
    Jul 30, 2001
    Are you following me?
    dmon,
    what I find funny is that you do little to deny the outrageous claims and questionable practices by chiropractors. True science must ALWAYS be looked at with a critical eye...why is that so hard for you to admit?

    Lets look at a bit of anti vaccination propaganda by a chiropractor
    "The theory of vaccination, and it is only a theory, has never been thoroughly tested and proven. Yet, it is a theory that many hold very dear to their hearts. Most of this fervour is the direct result of massive marketing campaigns by the pharmaceutical and medical industry. As a matter of fact, any research being done on vaccines is funded by the drug industry and there is virtually no research done on vaccine hazards. Any studies that have been done, do not extend for more than a two week period. Why? There are billions of dollars at stake. What a shock!"

    From Healing Hands, Volume 1, Number 3, June 1999.
    Patient First Chiropractic & Wellness Centre

    Yeah, when you start a study and the control group/experimental group begin to get terribly sick /die by "lack of treatment or with holding treatment due to experimentation" medical ethics kicks in and you cease the study.
     
  44. moo

    moo 1K Member 10+ Year Member

    1,423
    6
    Jul 4, 2000
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JenMac:
    <strong>That is why chiropractic has lasted as long as it has. Not because osteopaths "let" us have manipulation, but because we believe in the treatments, and so do our patients. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just because you and your patients believe in it isn't "proof" that it works.

    99% of the people before Columbus set sail for American believed the world was flat. Doesnt' make it right.

    I'm not against Chiropractic. I just think they should be limited in what they can do. No, I do not think chiros should be called PCP's. No, I do not think chiros should be allowed to prescribe, or even read radiographs. No, I do not believe in the subluxation theory. And lastly, no, I do not think children need to be adjusted to remain in optimal health, as many chiros claim.
     
  45. FutureMD/DO

    FutureMD/DO Junior Member

    8
    0
    Mar 31, 2002
    Mississippi
    I have resisted jumping in but now here I am. I at one time had thought of going to Chiropractic school but decided not to. One of the big reasons was there was no one to help finance my education. Yes, I realize loans were available but my interest was going into the military and the military would not pay for Chiropractic school and the military does not commission Chiropractors as officers as they do on a regular basis with nurses, PTs, MDs, and DOs. I checked into it and found that Chiropractors have the highest default rate on HEAL Loans of any healtcare providers.

    I take issue with JenMac regarding "we are more skilled than PTs". In regards to manipulation? Well when I checked into chiro, the US and Canada were the only 2 countries that had chiropractic colleges (thank God), this may have changed but in the rest of the world it is PTs and DOs who manipulate. I will say here in the US, chiros as a rule are more skilled in manipulation but we as PTs can and do learn manipulation/mobilization and yes, we can learn the high velocity techniques.

    Another thing, JenMac, do not put yourself on par with a MD/DO primary care physician, you do not have the medical training. When they start hiring DCs as primary care physicians in acute care hospitals, then you can be on par but not until then. As for the MD/DC or DO/DC, I bet the majority of those folks were DCs first prior to going back to medical school. You will have a doctor of chiropractic but then again a lawyer has a Juris Doctrate also.

    I have a nurse friend who went to massage therapy school and had a DC teaching anatomy and it blew here away at his lack of knowledge with regard to medical terminology.

    Chiropractic schools as a whole will take anyone, I know, I have several friends who went to DC school and have checked into it myself. You may be more skilled at manipulation than your average PT, but that is a minute part of the healthcare system. Can you tell me what the war time duty of a chiropractor is in the military. Nothing, they do not have a war time duty. Well my friend, for a PT it is treating thermal burns and wounds. Actually, today in the acute care hospital I work in, I debrided a gluteal and scrotal wound, pulse-a-vacked it and dressed the wound.

    I admire you being idealistic but you are in your first year of chiro school learning about subluxations that do not exist.

    As for chiros doing physical therapy, I haven't seen any working in any rehab hospital treating Stokes, Spinal Cord Injuries, Traumatic brain injuries, multiple fractures, MS, CF, peripheral neuropathies, etc...Why, you don't have the training. More skilled my butt. You used Ultrasound, E stim, traction, and a few exercises and call it PT. What a joke. Come on over and teach a R hemiplegic how to walk again or a partial SCI. You do not have the skills. PTs schools have a higher standard of student that they take than DC schools. DC schools let in 3-4 classes per year. Diploma mills. Can you tell me how many DO and MD schools let that many in??

    I had the opportunity to have shoulder surgery recently. Had my MRI and enjoyed my conversation with the radiologist. He proceeded to tell me how Chiros send their patient for the MRI, then max out the persons Auto Insurance at the $10,000 limit and what amazed the radiologist was how all these patient reached maximum medical benefit at the same time the $10,000.00 limit was met. Now that would be a study worth doing to see if there is a direct correlation.

    Actually, I have decided to go on to medical school (MD or DO). I did meet some nice people especially at Palmer, Dr. McMaster, PhD. He was editor of a magazine called Chiropractic. I don't know if it is still published but it was good. It called Chiros on the carpet on alot of issues and seemed to have a good research foundation.

    Oh one more thing, I worked with a MD who was a DC prior to medical school. He is now a physiatrist(not a psychiatrist), a rehab MD. He told me that his MD training smoked his DC training, in other words night and day. Yes, he was required to go through all the basic sciences again. At first, he was pissed, but he said he would not have passed the USMLE step I other wise if he had relied on his DC ed. It is really apples and oranges he told me. No comparison. Oh and he went to the National C of C in right outside Chicago, Lambard??

    Well, I am off. I got off more than I wanted to. Sorry, buttom line you are not a primary care physician, an expert at manipulation, depends on the DC, good luck. 123dvt
     
  46. rj

    rj Junior Member

    6
    0
    Nov 20, 2001
    Monmouth NJ
    Wow what a pissing contest we have here. My weiner is bigger than yours.....the fact is that in all aspects of life there are myths and then there is reality. Quite often the myths become reality and falsehoods become truths. Often the two are manipulated (no pun intended) to distort reality. This is quite evident in the realm of manipulation and who owns it, can perform it better, under which license etc., etc., etc.. The DC would like to believe and like the public to believe that spinal manipulation is the basis for good health. It's the end all for all patients. Hey it's their ONLY TOOL, what the hell are they supposed to say? Now the DC wants to pretend they are primary care docs but they're really not. We all know that. In reality the public doesn't go see a DC when he has high blood pressure, or a skin condition. They go for back/neck pain. Now if manipulation was so wonderful and was curative of so many patients then I would imagine there would be patients lined up to the moon and back to have their backs cracked for relief of their pain (I know ask any DC and they will tell you how many patients they have helped blah, blah, blah, blah). Fact is, back pain remains an enigma to them and the medical profession and evidence on the efficacy of manipulation is largely sketchy and anecdotal at best. I'm sure if you compared chiropractic manipulation to sticking a candle up your ass for back pain the results would be neck and neck (again no pun intended). This is really why most DO's have abandoned it as well, save for the nms docs perhaps. It's just another modality. I've been to a DO that would adjust my cervical spine and prescribe an antibiotic when I had sinusitis. At no point did I believe the adjustment did anything for the resolution of my condition. He may have but I didn't. As for who can perform it better and do you have to be a "doctor", are you kidding me? You can teach a chimp to take a joint segment to it's end range and provide a thrust. Wanna make it seem so damn complicated, gimme a break already. Lastly the part about DC's being "doctors" and doing "PT", they haven't a clue as to how ignorant they are. Just becase you took xxxx hours in basic science courses that qualifies you to do "rehab"? Or makes you a "doctor"? The imbeciles think "PT" is the administering of physical agents. Oh they have seminars and certifications as "sports physicians" and they write articles in local papers like they actually have experience treating these patients but in reality all they do is crack backs. When Johnny has an ortho problem who does he go see? An MD or DO trained in ortho ( not one that did mall screenings for free, or cracked his whole girlfriends family in his senior year to get enough credit to graduate). No instead his parents got him to an MD or DO and after the diagnosis they were referred to a PT to perform the actual "rehab". When an amputee needs prosthetic training does he see a DC? When an infant with Cerebral Palsy needs neuro re-ed does he see a DC? When a patient with ALS or some other progressive disease needs "rehab" does he see a DC? When Johnny has just had reconstructive surgery for a torn ACL does the doc send him to a DC? It's their wet dream to actually do "rehab" but it doesn't happen. Period. So when you read these silly posts about defending a defenseless profession (see NACM) just pay it no mind. They will wither and fade like the decaying DC practices that litter the lanscape of cities all across America.
     
  47. dcdo

    dcdo Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    172
    0
    Jan 26, 1999
    Sure are a lot of hotheads around here.

    1. Med school is MUCH harder
    2. Chiros aren't PCPs
    3. Lots of terrible DCs out there getting bad press.

    On the other hand, there are DCs out there who are excellent at spinal rehab, more so than many PTs I've been around(I've worked in both). Also, LACC has a postgrad rehab certification course that is uniformly excellent. PTs win hands down for stuff like stroke rehab, extremities, hospital care.

    For myself, I would see a PT for most injuries, but if I could find a DC who is skilled at exercise, direct/indirect stretching and proprio training then I would use him/her for spinal problems. Unfortunately, they are not too numerous for a number of reasons.
    If you think about it, high velocity manipulation is just another modality, although a fairly difficult one to do well. Whoever can do this and
    master exercise rehabilitation truly posesses the most complete skills.
     
  48. Boomer

    Boomer Supreme Sooner Member 15+ Year Member

    866
    0
    Sep 1, 1999
    In a house
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by gebe:
    <strong>Whenever I visit the DO site [almost always], I see a lot of self-defensiveness, arrogance, and I think inferiority complex. Are all DO students low achieving, no-confidence part of society or what? I was leaning toward Osteo schools, but the behavior of most students on this forum scare me. I think I will go for MD, and join the confident people there.... Do you blame me? You people do not have any self-confidence at all? Just read and compare the DO/MD forum and you will know what I am talking about. But for the record, in case it helps boost your confidence,
    it is not the two letters behind your name that will determine what kind of doc you are, it is how good edu. you gate, regardless of the particular path you take...

    Bye, may God grant all of you confidence and trust!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, if you're so worried about what you hear from people on line (certainly less than 2 or 3%--and I'm being generous--of all DO/MD students) then why the bloody hell are you applying to med school.

    Something about thickness of skin comes to mind...
     
  49. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    Hey JenMac,

    Thanks for posting in the OMT and Chiro debate. I felt like the only one there for awhile. I finally got so fed up with the ingnorance and absolute stupidity that I felt like I was just spinning my wheels. Why should we have to explain ourselves? We know it works, and so do our patients. That's all I really care about.

    Yes, unfortunately I will have to do it ALL over again. The reason I'm going back is not b/c I've
    given up on chiropractic, although I can't stand dealing with the politics anymore, but b/c I want to join the Air Force and can't do that as a Chiro yet. Maybe once I'm in I can make a difference but you have to to make changes from the inside. We'll see. Where do you go to school? I know that my first two years will be a breeze after the education I got at Palmer. Maybe I'll teach some DO's how to adjust :D

    TB
     
  50. Treybird

    Treybird Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    137
    0
    Feb 13, 2002
    Ft. Wayne, IN
    Freeeedom! JenMac wasn't talking about combined DC/DO programs. Do you have a brain? She was talking about those of us with a DC and DO degree. And yes, we are our own worst enemies, but that doesn't change the fact that we rule when it comes to adjusting our patients. Go read the research. You have absolutely NO clue as to what is or is not out there.

    As for the overuse of antiobiotics, go talk to someone who's had antiobiotic-resistant TB...oh, wait, you can't...they're all DEAD!! Go look at the Texas Back Institute to see what they think about chiros. The fact is that most of you who have never gone to chiropractic school have no idea what we are qualified to do. Think what you like, but until you've gone through it, you have nothing to contribute on this matter other than petty ignorance. I'd like to hear from some other DC's to weigh in on this issue.

    I love that I can diagnose and a PT can't. I love that in Indiana we can have direct access and PT's can't. I LOVE that we can manipulate and they can't. It sucks to be a PT in Indiana. It is GREAT to be a chiro and now matter how much you think we can't be primary care providers, we are. I LOVE that fact. And no amount of jealous sniping can change that. I had a great day today and helped many people. And you know what? None of them asked me to show them the reasearch. Know why? They didn't care!! All they cared about was that I got them better, and these were patients referred to me by a DO!!!! Oh how that must shatter your worlds. LEARN FROM THE MASTERS!!!
     
  51. dcdo

    dcdo Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    172
    0
    Jan 26, 1999
    Treybird,

    Where are you planning on going for school? Just curious. Good luck, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

    4 more weeks to graduation!!!! <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" />
     

Share This Page