OMT and Chiropractics

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I wouldn't put too much weight in those "career choice" things...the real proof happens when you do a rotation in that specialty...here's what my last 2 years have been like:
3months floor IM
1 month OBGYN
1 month gen surg
2 months ortho surg
2 weeks rads
2 weeks anesthesiology
2 months FP
1 month cardio
1 month pulm/critical care
2 months peds EM
3 months adult EM
1 month psych
2-3 months board prep and vacation/interviews

So, by the halfway point of your 3rd year, you begin to see what you like, and don't like.
The easiest residency to get a spot in is Psychiatry (sorry psych guys) the most difficult is ortho or dermatology followed by EM and radiology.
Now, of course there is the DO only match...which is far less competative and is in primarily DO hospitals (mostly in Mich, Ohio, NY, NJ, PA, etc). I did the ACGME match, and I did feel a bit of discrimination...not alot though. I'm going to a great program in Ohio (Wright State Univ).
I found my self using ALOT of PT based stretches/excercises and postural corection in the Emerg. Dept and FP. The biggest problem with manipulation is that if you are doing a MD (ACGME) rotation...then you can't do manipulation. You obviously can't do anything your attending is not proficient with...and if you do it with out asking...trouble.
 
DCDO: How did you like LACC? I graduated from Palmer in '94 as well. Good year. How did you find your experiences in DO school compared to LACC? Do you plan on staying on the west coast? I've been to San Fran before, but that's been my only west coast experience. Very different lifestyle from the East coast, where I grew up. I'm NOT looking forward to the basic science stuff again but can't wait for the clinical rotations.

happy clown: I absolutely don't expect to use any manipulation during residency as I plan on doing mine in the Air Force. Using manipulation will probably be a post-AF modality. I will probably go for flight surgeon and I don't see whipping out my chiro table on the tar mac. Did you find that you had to do some tightrope walking so as to not step on any attending's toes. I've heard that it can be trying at times, to say the least. What did you think of your ob/gyn and gen surgery rotations? I've heard that surgery residents have an ungodly on-call schedule. Where the boards tough? Did you take both the COMPLEX and USMLE's? I have to take both for the AF which is why I'm hoping to get into IU. I'm much more aligned with the DO philosophy but I don't feel like jumping through all the extra hoops to do the same things as MD's. Have you read The Intern Blues yet? Great book, sucky year.

TB
 
Treybird,

LACC was pretty tough as far as DC schools go, and they were very science and rehab-inclined. Much harder than Cleveland CC as far as I know. In fact, several students transferred to a now defunct straight DC school because LACC was too "medical." It is a good place for conservative NMS oriented practitioners.

Even so, medical school was much harder. The tests were more difficult, and there weren't tons of old tests floating around, which was a good thing. Also, the competition is obviously higher. That said, you will definitely have an edge over other students since you've had to do basic sciences, and the history/physical stuff will come to you a lot quicker.

In retrospect, MD school probably would have been a better idea for me, as I didn't really learn anything in the manipulation/musculoskeletal realm that I didn't already know. I suspect this will probably be even more so for you since you have 4 years more experience than I do. However, I wouldn't want to trade the classmates I have for any others.
Taking both sets of boards is a good idea if you are considering a competitive specialty or are interested in being in California. I would take COMLEX first and then the USMLE about a week or so later, because the USMLE will be the more important test. The COMLEX can be a "dry run" of sorts. Studying for the 2 isn't any different other than needing a particular blue review book for OMM, which is a quick read.

Good luck.
 
I took the USMLE THEN the COMLEX...oddly enough, I got the same COMLEX grade on both steps one and two.

Surgery was surgery, ya know if you hate it you hate it, if you like it you like it.
OBGYN was awful.
Ortho was cool, but the residents were pretty tired.

Manipulation was new to me in DO school...but I could have taught the postural and many aspects of the Muscle Energy (PNF) sections. The orthopedic musculoskeletal exam WAS taught by me as part of test prep...I know my orthopedics. But that has been my contention...most manipulative evaluation techniques have such poor inter-rater reliability, that at many times I thought it was total "non science" fluff. But, it was an easy "A".
 
DCDO: I had a friend who went to Palmer and then the DO school in St. Louis and he said pretty much the same thing that the tests were harder. But he also said that it was alot easier b/c of his prior training. I hope so. I'll be going for my MBA as well so I hope that I don't have to kill myself with the basic science stuff. I've not heard that LACC was too medical but everyone has their own thing I guess. Some may have even thought that Palmer was too science, who knows. When I took my NY state boards I met some people from LACC. We had a pretty good time on Long Island. It was during the Jets training camp (at Hofstra U.) and we got to watch them a little on breaks. I will so not miss taking Chiro boards. Did you know that it costs close to $900 to take part 4? Screw that. They didn't have it when I graduated but my girlfriend is an RN and it cost her like $175 to take her RN board. I think we're getting shafted on that deal. Where's TUCOM? I'm with you, though. I'm really not looking forward to the manipulation classes again. I just want to nail down my clinical stuff and move on. From what I understand, DO's manipulate completely backwards from how we adjust. If Chiros do it black, DO's do it white. Plus they use a lot more muscle energy stuff than I do. Did you take a board review for the two boards or did you just study on your own? Have you had to take any national OMM practical exam like we did as Chiros? Are you doing the one year Osteopathic internship? What a pain-in-the-ass. Aren't there like 5 states that won't allow you a license unless you've done a 1-yr DO internnship? Did you find the COMLEX and USMLE's harder than parts 1 & 2 of the Chiro boards? I tool the Irene Gold board reviews and that really made it easier. I didn't take a board review for the MCAT but I know I could have done better if I had. We'll see.

Happy Clown: Did you find that the EM residency was very competitive? Isn't Wright State in OH? Did you do the one year DO internship? Does anybody do that anymore? What have you heard about CCOM, KCOM and UMDNJ-SOM? Is UHS in Des Moines, IA? Gotta love those easy "A" classes. I don't have much fear of the neurology as we were hit pretty hard with that in DC school, much more than orthopedics. I would have to say that the neurology classes were some of the hardest, but the best. If neurology wasn't so depressing than I would have considered it.

TB
 
I have read through all the threads here and would like to give Treybird some backup. I am a 2nd year Chiropractic student at NUHS (NCC) and can assure everyone that the curriculum is EXTREMELY INTENSE. We go to school year round with no more than 2 weeks off at a time. Although the program only takes 3 1/2 years, it is actually a 5 academic year program.

With that said, all Chiropractic schools are private; therefore need students tuition to keep the school running. This often leads to schools accepting some real questionable characters. It is these people who often perform the oddball procedures referred to in one post. Another way many schools recruit students is the no bachelors degree requirement (NUHS is the only school to my knowledge that requires a BS). I think this is absolutely rediculous for many reasons. Completing an undergraduate degree makes you a more well rounded and responsible person. I can't imagine graduating from Chiropractic school at 23 and being let out into the world to practice. I also don't know how many posters on this forum are aware of the straight/mixer issue in Chiropractic. Straight chiropractors are only concerned with adjusting spines, no matter the complaint. They are not interested in performing a history or physical/neuro exams. These are probably the docs who stroke out patients during cervical adjustments due to not recognizing the warning signs. By the way, the incidence of this is 1 in 2 million cervical adjustments- much lower than probably all surgical and pharmaceutical complications. I digress.. Many of these "straight" chiro schools are under probation for their lack of proper basic science education. Now, on the complete opposite side of the spectrum are the "mixers". We are tought in school to be primary care physicians. Now this does not mean we have the same level of training as an allopathic primary care doc, but it is damn close. We learn all relevant diagnosic tests, lab work, rehab, X-Ray, and something we blow allopaths away in- extensive classwork in nutrition.

Now, I have absolutely nothing against allopathic physicians. I visit my MD often, and I have to reservations about anyone visiting one. However, for certain conditions, there is very little or nothing that traditional medicine can do. What do the allopaths do with a patient with chronic neck/back pain? Probably give them anti-inflammatories and refer them to orthopedic surgery. This should be the absolute last resort for all patients. Chiropractors have proven they can treat many forms of musculoskeletal disorders, so why not just accept that? It is true that there was little evidence on the efficacy of chiropractic in past decades, but believe me, this is changing. NUHS has completed two multi-million dollar studies on back and neck pain in the last year. These grants came from the NIH- Now what would be the rational for giving a chiropractic school 2 multi million dollar grants if the NIH did not believe chiropractic is effective? As Treybird indicated earlier, Palmer is also undergoing many large grant research projects.

Well, I'll get off my soap box now. I welcome any comments-
niugrad
 
By the way, the scope of practice in Illinois for DC's states:
"The treatment of human ailments without the use of drugs and without operative surgery, as per the Illinois Medical Practice Act"
niugrad
 
I really really really don't want to discuss about the treatment approach to chronic neck pain. The medical differential is enormous and obviously includes more than musculoskeletal etiologies (oncology, ENT, psychiatric, rheumatological). And I really don't think you want to debate "blowing the allopaths away" regarding nutrition, ordering labs, or ordering diagnostic tests. I have stood through pimp sessions that would make your toes curl up.

Trey,
Emergency Medicine is in the top 5 for competative residencies (read Isserson's Guide to Getting a Residency)...that will help you nail down very helpful information about each specialty.

No, I am not doin the AOA internship, I do not agree with the philosophy and it offers no added benefit to a 30+ year old resident. I took both the USMLE and COMLEX board exams and obviously found them EXTREMELY challenging and I know people who failed one or the other. Praise God I don't have to take step one again!
UHS is in Kansas City MO.
All the "big" DO programs are great...each have individual problems. The only programs I would have reservations about are LECOM, Pikesville, and the newest program in development in Virginia. But all have rigorous standards to uphold and EVERYONE must pass all 3 steps of the COMLEX to be licensed...as well as complete a residency. Personally, the most challenging classes were biochemistry, pharmacology, and pathology. Gross anatomy was just time consuming.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Tori's manbitch:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Treybird:
• Did you take both the COMPLEX and USMLE's? •••••It's COMLEX.•••••But slightly complex too..
 
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niugrad: Thanks for th backup, but where were you three post pages ago when I needed you?? Nonetheless, good to have you aboard...even if you are at National...ha ha, just kidding. We're all brothers here (and sisters, JenMac). Keep hope alive.

Happy Clown: I'll check out Isserson's Guide. Is it something I can get at Border's? I'll be a 38+ year old resident by the time I get to that stage and I don't feel like pissing around with that AOA internship either. Do you think that the trend is for that to disappear soon? Do you know how not doing it will limit your choices of practice? I do anticipate Pharm being a pain-in-the-ass b/c I've never had it before. Biochem is just time consuming. I've had it in college and Chiropractic school so we'll see. Not looking forward to memorizing all that crap again. I've never once had to recall the citric cycle to one patient to date. I'm not a big fan of histology or microbio either. Did you have any genetics classes? What did you hate about your ob/gyn rotation?

acurarte: Right on, Freudian slip. Some people just can't sit back and enjoy the grand paradox opting instead for getting lost in the details. Then again, some people are just incredibly anal.

TB
 
As long as the AOA is around I'm sure the internship will be too. But not doing it will only limit you in the 4 or 5 states that require the AOA internship. I'm not doing it either. There are residencies that are dual certified.

The COMLEX/USMLE were A LOT harder than the DC board exams. I took a review course for part 1 but it was a huge waste of money, and I stopped attending after a few sessions. There are good enough review books out there, at least for part 1.

NIUGRAD, I hate to burst your bubble, but DC school is not adequate primary care physician training. It might seem like it at the time, but it really doesn't compare. Portal-of-entry yes, but not primary care.
 
dcdo: I can't even remember the DC boards since I took them 10 years ago (God has it been that long???). Why did you stop going to the review? Was it expensive? Do most students do better with the review than without? Do you feel pretty confident in your primary care skills now? Do you feel like you can handle most things that walk through your door? Are you still adjusting patients? And lastly, do you know specifically which states require the AOA internship? Sorry about the questions. Just trying to take it all in and since you've done both I can get a lot more perspective from you.

TB

P.S. Anybody know anything about KCOm and it's reputation (i.e. respect from the profession)
 
I felt the review was basically just slow basic lectures, not any better than reading a good book on your own. Maybe it's a matter of learning styles, as I'm sure there were people who liked it. It is expensive, around $600-900 if I recall.

My primary care skills are far better now. Do I feel ready for anything that walks in? Just basic stuff, there's a lot more than meets the eye with many people. I certainly couldn't go out there now. I have used manipulation for some patients in outpatient rotations. Just as important though, DC school gave me a good grounding in diagnosing NMS conditions.

I don't know the 5 states, but somebody will probably chime in here somewhere.
 
Kirksville is a great school and, of course, is in the same state as UHS...where I went.

There is a book called " A DO's guide to getting an MD residency: DO's eat their young" and it will go into depth about side-stepping the silly antiquated AOA intership rule. In 10 years, I would bet that law will be null and void anyway...in at least 3 of the 5 states. It serves only the well being of the Hospitals and the AOA...NOT the resident/student/physician/patients. (Fla, PA, MI, OK, WV are the big 5)
Isserson's Guide can be found at any Medical Bookstore and can be ordered via internet or at the book store itself. I have both books, and if you send me a check for $25 I will send them to you. Seriously...not kidding.
 
DCDO: Are you in your internship now? How does that work? Are you canstantly researching stuff and is it more of a learn as you go kind of thing. In other words, you don't read up on malaria until you have a case. Do the attendings give you reading assigments and then test you or what? How does it work in residency? At least you have the beach, even if you never get to see it.

Mr. happy clown: I agree that the AOA internship is nothing but a self-serving pain-in-the-ass, and, as usual, FL goes right along with it. FL and NJ seem to be the hardest when it comes to jumping through hoops for a license. I hope it becomes null and void. You don't see other states reversing themselves and adding themselves to the list, do you? Aren't some programs starting to combine the AOA interneship into the regular internship? Would you recommend an MD residency over a DO residency? Is there a difference, and if so, in what way? Does it only matter if you're competing for a specialty outside of primary care? Have you heard anything about military residencies? Easier? Harder?
Thanks for the offer on the books but I will probably wait a few years before I get them so the info will be updated for me when I'm ready. I won't be seeing an internship for another 4 years. I've written down all the books you've recommended though. Have you treid selling them on e-bay?

TB.

P.S. Does anyone else, who has time to watch TV, thins that Scrubs rules?? I LOVE that show, and Elliot is hot, ion a neurotic way. Dr. Cox is hilarious. Are most attendings that bad?
 
No states will ever reverse themselves, most likely states will revoke the AOA internship law sometime in the future...or make it easier to gain reciprocity.

As for internship, you will always have alot of reading to do, as well as presentations. In my residency, there are meetings 1-2 x's/wk for 4 hours each and journal club once a month. THere is grand rounds daily, depending on the service you are on. And of course, the daily pimp sessions which serve to motivate one to read on a nightly basis. THough, one may not read up on malaria, you should have ample justification why you order certain tests and medications...shotgun methods are absolutely frowned upon (ordering a chem 14 when a chem 7 will do...or just ordering a potassium level).

As for my decision to do an allopathic residency, I just chose the best residency for me. I wish to pursue some research and learn in a large tertiary care center that is university affiliated and is not financially burdoned. Also, without the AOA internship, I am cutting my residency by one year...which would be enough to allow for a one year fellowship.

"Scrubs" is loosely based upon the book "House of GOd", and the interns on the show act like they are straight outta high school...so I avoid it. The book is a Must read.
 
I start on June 24th
 
I read The House of God and saw the movie (circa 1978). It was ok. I enjoyed The Intern Blues much better. It had essentially the same themes as The House of God but these were journal entries made by 3 peds interns. I enjoyed it much better b/c it wasn't fictionalized with literary license. Ever read it? The author is Robert Marion, M.D.. Yea, Scrubs is silly, but that's why I like it. Something tells me you take life waaaaaay to seriously sometmies. Type-A much?

Once you become board certified, is it easy to move from state to state, as far as reciprocity goes? What are daily pimp sessions and a journal club? Do you actually find any time to sleep at all? I'm wondering if I should just do all my sleeping now before school begins. Where would you like to do your fellowship? Sports Med, correct?

TB
 
Pimp sessions are just the "fun" question-answer times between you and your attending or whomever. I dread them, but I'm used to them.
Journal club is when residents read and discuss recent journal articles. Discuss the weakness of the studies and debate their conclusions.
As far as sleep...well I like it, that is why I am doing EM...NO CALL when you are on the EM service!! Great.
Fellowship location is undecided...I just got engaged, so there are one other person to consider from this point on!!
 
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Sounds wonderful. And you have time to sleep and see your family when?? Yea, I can see how pimp sessions would be a drag depending on who's running it and who the residents are with you. If you have a group that just asks the most inane questions it can be annoying. How many journal articles are you expected to read a week? Which journals do you like? Does EM have a high burnout rate? I assume you work in the ER. I don't know if I could handle the gore. We'll see. Does radiology have a difficult residnecy, time-wise. What makes it so difficult? Did you do a radiology residency?

TB
 
I forgot to ask, what are prelim and transitional programs? Are they necessary? Do they count towards your PGY-1 or are they pre-PGY-1? If so, what's the point of doing one?

TB
 
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Let the chiropractors zap patients with needless X-rays so that they can develop Papillary Carcinoma of the Thyroid!!! <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> J/K

I'm a fourth year at Westernu/COMP and few of my classmates are going to use OMT in their practice. My class is full of future Radiologists and Anesthesiologists cuz that's where the you can still make over 200K start. Damn...Dr. Still would be pissed of.

Unfortunately, I'll be doing a very non-osteopathic anesthesiology residency at Tufts University in Boston. Oh well... Life goes on.

Yo man.... DOctor begins with the letters D.O.
 
Trey,

a transitional year or preliminary med year is only one year (PGY1) and is necessary for some residencies (radiology, PM&R, Anesth, or any osteopathic residency). Most EM programs (allopathic) do not require the transitional year, it is straight PGY1-3 in most cases (some are 1-4 or 2-4).
Radiology is very competetive, and is a pretty cool residency...it also offers a nice life outside of the hospital. I did 2 weeks of radiology alone, and it was great. Of course, you are bombarded with radiology in most other specialties also...especially EM.
EM has changed alot over the past fiew years, as fewer IM docs man the ED and more board certified EM docs come into play. The burnout rate for EM docs is probably no worse than any other field, and one of the pluses with EM is the "no call" policy which allows for more "at home" time. Each field has burnout, and I would venture a guess that IM has the highest dissatisfaction.

The journals I get are:
Annals of EM
Academic EM
Journal of the AMA
Journal of the AOA
Journal Watch (covers articles from all over)
The Consultant
Post Graduate Medicine
Physician and Sports Medicine
 
I agree with happy clown guy...

Of the ER docs that I have run into at a county hospital, the FP and IM trained ER docs always seemed mor STRESSED OUT than the Board-Certified ER docs. (Cuz they bit off more than they can Chew)
There is a turf war going on between ER and FP. ER is trying to shut out FPs in the er by making Board certification a must to work down in the ER.

FPs fight back by making ER docs pass the FP boards to work in the clinic when they burn out.

the problem is.... ER docs trained at EM residencies don't burn out as often as FP trained ER docs.

Once again the FP is the Bitch of the system.(PA's and NP"S got them cornered)
 
Happy:

Are you starting to feel confident in EM? How long have you been doing your residency? I should hear from IU by the end of next week. They meet on Fri to decide my fate. What the hell, it's only the rest of my life. I guess in the long run it won't make a difference. Is your fiance in medicine? I just got engaged as well. She's an RN. Do some ER docs come at it from FP? Don't some FP work at like RediMeds on the weekend? Do you plan on moonlighting once you get board certified? When do you take part 3 of your boards? Is that COMLEX and USMLE as well? Here's a simple question. If you came up on the scene of a car accident, and you were the only one around, would you feel confident that you could handle the situation and stabilize the patient until the EMS arrived?

TB

P.S. Looks like most people have dropped out of this room. Anybody else out there??? Voyeurs!!!
 
I have so much more to learn...a ton. EM is great fun, but knowing what to do in every situation is impossible. I look forward to everyithing coming together.
In the past, some FP's "manned" small ED's but mostly they were IM guys manning the ED's in rural hospitals. THere has been major pressure by the American College of Emergency Physicians and the American Acadamy of Emergency Medicine to allow ONLY board certified/residency trained doctors in the Emergency Dept. this allows for greater quality and more $$ for these types of docs. At the same time it puts a crunch on moonlighting in the ED. FP guys get the "clinic" but EM guys need the ED.
Nope, my fiance has nothing to do with medicine, this makes me extremely happy! It provides for an escape...hopefully someday we will own a business together (wipe the tears from your eyes).
 
P.S. Looks like most people have dropped out of this room. Anybody else out there??? Voyeurs!!!

No one else is posting on this board because it's no longer a discussion. It's just a Q&A between a pre-med (and a very neurotic pre-med at that) and some MS IV's. Boring.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Freeeedom!:
•??? did they need your approval or something?•••••No, just saying that we're not joining in on the discussion because it's gone to the mundane Q's of "Where should I do my residency?" "Should I take the USMLE?" Blah, blah, blah.
 
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Ponyboy: Let's discuss. What do you want to talk about? I'll talk to you, but I'm not going to get into mud slinging again. If you have an open mind, then let's talk. If you've already got a closed mind on the subject and you're just looking to "slam a Chiropractor", then forget it. it's pointless. Sorry we've been so boring but I didn't see you pipe in with any questions. And I don't see that gathering as much info as you can, so you're prepared to make excellent decisions regarding the rest of your life, as being neurotic. Happy Clown has experience, and I want to know what it is.

Freeeeeeeedom!!! Amen.

Happy: They say it takes about 5 years of being in practice, at least for Chiros, to get to the point where you feel confident to the point that you handle anything that walks in the door. I would imagine it just takes time for you to see the same things over and over again to the point of feeling like you can handle 99% of what walks in the door. Yea, it's a good feeling when it all comes together. What kind of business do you guys want to own? Used CD store? A Subway shop?

TB
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Treybird:
•Ponyboy: Let's discuss. What do you want to talk about? I'll talk to you, but I'm not going to get into mud slinging again. If you have an open mind, then let's talk. If you've already got a closed mind on the subject and you're just looking to "slam a Chiropractor", then forget it. it's pointless. Sorry we've been so boring but I didn't see you pipe in with any questions. And I don't see that gathering as much info as you can, so you're prepared to make excellent decisions regarding the rest of your life, as being neurotic. Happy Clown has experience, and I want to know what it is.

Freeeeeeeedom!!! Amen.

Happy: They say it takes about 5 years of being in practice, at least for Chiros, to get to the point where you feel confident to the point that you handle anything that walks in the door. I would imagine it just takes time for you to see the same things over and over again to the point of feeling like you can handle 99% of what walks in the door. Yea, it's a good feeling when it all comes together. What kind of business do you guys want to own? Used CD store? A Subway shop?

TB•••••
 
about the business stuff....I heard you can make a lot of money if you own nail shops or strip clubs....
 
I guess I see others points about the Q and A. If you want to send a private message Trey, feel free.

Well, I don't think I would open a strip club, I would hate to clean the bathrooms.

But I am considering opening a cafe or bar/lounge in a few years...when the timing is right.
 
Trey: I never slammed chiropractic. Every time I've posted, I've only refuted arguments that you made against allopathic medicine.

In regards to med school, relax. It's much easier if you let things figure out themselves. It makes things much more pleasant for you and the people around you.

In terms of being able to treat everything that walks through the door: the most important thing is to be able to start on the diagnostic algorithm path. Once you're on the path, you can take the time to figure out what it is and how you would treat it. (this is, of course, after the ABC's). In many places where we've been given a lot of responsibility (ER, family med clinics), I have seen third year medical students perform very well and often in accordance with what the attending would do. This isn't to say that we know everything (and we are no where near the level of a resident or attending) but we are comfortable with a large variety of problems.
 
Ponyboy: I'm cool. Most of my questions are answered, I think. It just seems like in medicine you can almost "make your own major" so to speak. You have so many options and so many different ways of accomplishing things. It's great that you can do that but like anything else when you're on the other side it seems like a bigger deal than it is. Believe it or not, I'm not a neurotic person. But, I figure if I have an ear I might as well ask some of the questions I've had from what i've read and heard. I remember the diagnostic algorithm path with my Chiro training. Same thing, albeit less complicated. I remember that it took time to find my style and get comfortable with a routine. I know that it will be the same way in medicine and I look forward to that.

I don't have grudges against allopathic medicine, obviously, or I wouldn't be going into medicine. But it is egotistical and arrogent of medicine to attack Chiropractic while there are surgeries and drugs in medicine that are experimental and dangerous too. In other words, medicine has no business pointing fingers. If we can agree on that, than I'm cool. I don't think Chiropractic is perfect, and more research needs to be done, but that goes for both sides. Let's point out the weakness of both professions, if that's what we're going to concentrate on. I'd rather concentrate on the positive aspects of both, but whatever. As I said before, Chiropractic has not had the funding for the research needed until recently. Hopefully that will change.

Happy Clown: Thanks for your help.
 
Hello out there......(chirp, chirp).........(chirp, chirp)......nothing but the crickets.
 
I have to say that Chiroprators do provide a good serivce, and can help. However, as a paramedic I have gone on calls for heart attack patients where there was a supposed "Doctor" on scene, when in truth the "Doctor" was just a chiropractor. If a man having a heart attack could be cured by an adjustment, then I would agree that Chiropractors are legitimately Doctors. This is obviously not the case. In fact Paramedics are forbidden by law to relinquish patient care to any individual with less Legally Recognized Medical Training then they have, and in the two states where I have worked, a Chiropractor does not meet this criteria. So if a Paramedic with one year of training can't relinquish patient care to a Chiropractor but can to a Physician (DO or MD) of any specialty, then a Chiropractor is definately no doctor of medicine. In my opinion, the free market economy simply created schools for people who just want to learn about OMT and related subjects; they are called chiropractic colleges. No matter what the rhetoric, until Chiropractors are given DEA numbers, and training in "Organic Illnesses", they will never be considered doctors. To me it seems silly to say that because a DC can read x-rays and MRI's that a DC has received comparable training to that of a physician. Knowing how to read an x-ray is worthless without the background knowledge of organic systems, disease pathologies, and all that crappy biochem that isn't in Chiropractic school.

And if it was the same, why go to medical school?
 
Mire,

I think you are a little confused. You are using the word "doctor" as if it were synonymous with medical physician. I'm sure you are aware that there are many different types of doctorate degrees. I think it is probably common error of the uneducated to think that the word "doctor" pertains to medical physicians only.
Also, I don't recall anyone stating that a chiropractor could treat a heart attack victim with an adjustment--where did you get that silly idea? And maybe you should look into the chiropractic curriculum and see what classes are included in their training bfore you speak about them. I know that you didn't, or else you would know that they have classes in physical and clinical diagnosis, pathology, and of course, biochemistry. In the future, it may be wise to actually research a topic before you write about it--especially if it is negative criticism--because when your wrong, it really puts your credibility into question.
 
With all due respect, I believe you misread my post. My point is simply that chiropractors are no more doctors of medicine then a doctor of philosophy. Not to take away from their medical training, but I am saying that you simply can't compare the two educations; they are too dissimilar. DC's are a very specialized subset of people who earn a doctorate level degree in a discipline that does not incorporate the necessary fields of study required to equate them with physicians. Secondly, my point about the heart attack victim is that when I arrived on scene the Chiropractor tried to assume patient care. He did this saying, "its ok I'm a doctor." This is not only inappropriate, but illegal for a chiropractor to do. Simply put, Chiropractors do not have equivelent training to Physicians. Therefore, they should not think of themselves as Primary Care Doctors. And if I am so misinformed about the DC curriculum then why is that they are not considered Physicians with all the rights and privaleges of an individual who has completed a program that incorporates said disciplines as mentioned in my previous post? I will tell you why...Because it is not the same thing!!! And even if some schools do cover this material, it doesn't change the facts of the situation. Most Chiropractors understand their role in medicine, which is important, but a rose need not call itself a tree simply because it grows in the same garden. I am not assigning worth to either discipline, and I am most likely restating what has allready been said. I am only adding my experience to the fray. I apologize for offending anyone who reads this. That is not my intention. In fact, I was a patient of a DC for a long time, and I sincerely believe that his care was beneficial, appropriate, and professional.
 
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If a man having a heart attack could be cured by an adjustment, then I would agree that Chiropractors are legitimately Doctors. This is obviously not the case.....then a Chiropractor is definately no doctor of medicine....until Chiropractors are given DEA numbers, and training in
"Organic Illnesses", they will never be considered doctors. To me it seems silly to say that because a DC can read x-rays and MRI's that a DC has received comparable training to that of a physician. Knowing how to read an x-ray is worthless without the background knowledge of organic systems, disease pathologies, and all that crappy biochem that isn't in Chiropractic school

Doesn't sound like Dmon misread what you wrote. You were pretty clear to me, arrogant and condescending as well. First of all, Chiropractors are NOT doctors of medicine, I think we can all agree with that. We never claimed to be. We're doctors of Chiropractic, with enough training in basic daignosis to recognize when something is beyond our scope of practice and refer that patient out. We don't have to put a name on it, we just have to know where to send them. We are portals into the healthcare system, esp. when dealing with populations that "hate going to their doctor", such as the Amish. If Chiros weren't adequately trained, many people who avoid allopathic or osteopathic care, but trust Chiros, would be in a world of hurt if their Chiro didn't refer them when they needed it.

Now, neuromusculoskeletally we are adequately trained on a doctor level to treat those conditions within our scope and, again, refer those that are outside of our scope, despite what you think. You seem to think that WE think we're medical doctors. No one here ever said we were. And Dmon's right, go sit in on a chiropractic radiology class or sit in on our radiology report classes before you decide to piss around judgement on what YOU consider legit or not. Try not to look down your sarcastic nose at us as being inferior to you. We're equal but different. We serve different functions within the healthcare system. Just ask the many MDs who do refer to a DC when they relaize that some things are even beyond their control.
 
Mire,
You are right on buddy! If you really want to get technical, why should a chiropractic degree be a doctorate anyway? In Texas, you can get into chiropractic school with 60 hours of college and a pulse. So how does adding four years to this add up to a doctorate? Hell, this hardly qualifies as a Masters in most institutions. If this were the case, a PA like myself should have earned a doctorate right? I went to 6 total years of school also before going to medical school. And I guess we should be allowed to go by the title Doctor PA right? NO!!! Because we are not physicians!!! I went to eat Sushi last night and there was a clinic right next door called HEALTHCHOICE FAMILY CLINIC. The name Dr. XXXXX was printed on the door, and words like "Master Whiplash Certification", and "Pain Disorders" was also on the door. NOWHERE on the door, or sign did it say that this was a chiropractic clinic, and this is simply the case of a chiropractor trying to pass himself off as a physician. Anyone could mistake this place for a real medical clinic, and this is just wrong. There was however one dead giveaway that this was a chiropractic clinic though, and that was the fact that it was located in a strip center. You never see chiros anywhere else do you? Ever looked up the list of docs in a professional building outside a hospital and found a DC listed? You can take up for DC's all day long, but as long as you have so many of them misrepresenting the profession and calling themselves doctors DC's will never gain nationwide respect. And as a former paramedic, I had a run in or two with a chiropractor trying to call himself doc as well on a scene (usually an MVA). I feel sorry for the legitimate DC's out there who have to face an uphill battle daily due to the overwhelmingly large number of bad DC's out there. DC's have their place, but if you had enough DO's you wouldn't even need them. That is reality, like it or not.
 
In Texas, you can get into chiropractic school with 60 hours of college and a pulse

And that's different from Lake Erie Osteopathic College how???

So how does adding four years to this add up to a doctorate?

Ah, the ignorant never cease to amaze. 5 years, bubba, not 4. 10 semesters through the summers. In case you need a calculator, that's 3 1/3 years, chronologically. I have 9 years of school and I would say that's a little more than your overwhelming 6. By the way, where does it say on the med school app that a degree is required?? Seems to me that you don't need a degree, just the required pre-reqs.

a PA like myself should have earned a doctorate right?

I'm sure you'd like to think so. Man, that just reeks of bitter jealousy. Have you tried to take the MCAT yet? Do you even meet the pre-req's for med school with your PA training? Instead of just dreaming about being a doctor, go ahead and take the MCATs. See how ya do, bubba. Then you wouldn't have such hatred seething in your heart. Can I have an amen, brother??

You can take up for DC's all day long, but as long as you have so many of them misrepresenting the profession and calling themselves doctors DC's will never gain nationwide respect.

We already do, bubba, just not with you. All I care about are my patients and what they think. And I think I garner mucho respect from the ones who've already been to their docs, pumped with drugs and are still in pain, 4 weeks out of work already. We don't need your respect becuase it isn't worth anything to me. All you do is hurt yourself. Big bad paramedic. I suppose you like to call yourself a doctor when no one's looking right?? C'mon, admit it. You look in the mirror with your little white coat on and wonder what it would be like to be a Chiropractor. To succeed where others have failed. Admit it, bubba. It's time to come out of the closet. 😎

DC's have their place

Mine's right outside the Failed Low Back Surgery clinic, across the street from the Completely Screwed Up That Carpal Tunnel Surgery office complex, down the street from the Oops! We Should Have Sent Them To The Chiro building. :clap:
 
Whoa now treybird!!!

I just have one question for you. If as a chiropractor you can do so much, and basically have the same diagnostic skills as a doctor why are you going to medical school? Sincerely, I am not trying to condescend. You are probably an excellent DC, but you seem very content with what you allready know, and how much school you allready have. Why go to medical school? It would appear to me that your passionate defense of chiropractics has revealed some kind of self loathing within in you. Maybe deep down you know that being a Chiropractor can't fill the void that only a legitimate medical education can.
 
All I can think to say is that just because you have one example of Dr. XXXXX who is a quack, and an example of a school with horribly low admission requirements, doesn't mean a whole lot. I worked for a DC in a *bonafide* office building, and NUHS in IL requires a Bachelor's degree. There are my examples. But then again, they are not representative of the whole. You guys are telling us (and everyone else on this thread by the 6th page...) things we already know as far as scope of practice, own worst enemy, blah blah blah blah. Fact is, we are still here, going strong, and probably going to continue to be the thorn in your side, letting you know we actaully possess a skill that you don't. Especially because you put in so much energy to put us down. (and don't get started on all your superiorities....we have already acknowledged them or previoulsy fought that battle). And if DO's could wipe out our practice, I think it would have happened by now. Fact is, DO's don't go to DO school to learn to adjust, and few use it in practice. Even if they do, we still receive more training....I could go on and on (and on) but it seems SO REDUNDANT! However, I have to say right on Trey. Your energy for this debate astounds me! Keep it up bro!
 
This thread is getting repetitive. It has been established that:
1)The academic qualifications of matriculants to medical school are, on average, greater than their chiropractic counterparts. (study cited several pages ago)

2)Medical schools covers a wider breadth of medical science and is more rigorous than chiropractic school.

3) Chiropractors are not medical doctors and are not qualified to treat diseases outside of certain musculoskeletal complaints.

4) Chiropractic has been shown to be effective for the treatment of lower back pain.

5) To date, quality outcome-based research is not available to prove the effectiveness of chiropractic on other diseases.

We should move on in the discussion.
 
Treybird, if you were not so busy salivating over the chiropractic debate you might have seen me conversing on the forum's other threads. Then you would have seen that I took the MCAT, was accepted to multiple medical schools, and will start in August. And don't call me Bubba just because most of your patients are named that. I also find it comical that you worked your butt off to find one medical school that accepts someone after 60 hours, but could you tell me across the board who has more education entering professional school, prechiro or premed? The truth is that chiropractic is synonymous with "distrust", "questionable", and often "out there!". At least I have the balls to admit that my profession is nowhere near the level of a doctorate, but you are plain arrogant. You really never did resond to my statement regarding the fact that chiros misrepresent themselves all the time. What about the example in my post where the word chiropractic was not even on the door or sign? I don't doubt that DC's offer a worthy service, but I just doubt that they all do. Is there some kind of adjustment to remove a foot out of your mouth by the way?
 
I just read what Mire wrote, and I am still smiling. How true that must be. Anyone know the CPT code for adjustment of foot from mouth? And Treybird, know matter what you say, chiro school is 4 years. You can add up summers, Christmas breaks, and the Vietnamese New Year for all I care, but everyone knows it is four years. And everyone knows that a lot of pre-chiros get in with the basic 60 credits where I beg you to show me a medical student who did the same thing. And in case you didn't know, many medical schools go all year round with a few weeks off here and there, but physicians don't go around saying that it took them 5 years to finish med school if you include study hours past 1AM. Bottom line, 9 years of education is way more than you should have done to get done with DC school. I might agree it could take 7-8, but anyone who did it in 9 had a lot of free time. Don't make assumptions Treybird about people before you emit such a long statement with so many bubba inclusions. Got that foot past the 3rd molar yet?
 
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