Online non pre-req courses

[Dr.Kitty]

I know the general consensus is not to take online pre reqs because it will limit the number of schools you are able to apply to, but what about taking non pre req courses online? Would taking non pre req courses online hurt my chances? I want to do this not because it is any "easier" than regular courses, it's to free up my schedule with a scribing position I have been offered that requires at least two weekdays since the clinic isn't open on the weekends. Since I want to take 18 hours this semester, taking traditional classes won't allow my schedule to be that flexible. I'll also mention I have taken plenty of online courses already (non pre reqs), and if not an issue, most of the online classes I would be taking would be Psych related since that's my major & other subjects like ethics and anthropology. Any advice for my particular situation?

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[efle]

I'd triple check that your university allows you to use online credits towards your major.

Other than that, worst case is the med schools ignore those credits, but as long as you have the prereqs and good GPA in your university courses I don't know of any issues.

@gonnif might know best

 

[ShallCallYouSquishy]

a few medical schools have required prereqs in social sciences and humanties; many school, if not most medical schools are requiring or recommending psych and sociology coursework. While the online coursework may be acceptable to a medical school, it does not mean that it makes you competitive. I would be judicious of how much undergraduate coursework you do online and how that may impact your chances at medical school.

And as @elfe says, you need to be cognizant of how these online courses will apply to your major.

How the hell would they (any med school) know it was an online course unless you told them? No undergrad school that I've ever seen in California notates this.

Your transcript says "English 101" whether you took it on campus or online.

 

[candbgirl]

If you have already taken "plenty of online courses already" why are you suddenly asking about it? As efle suggested, triple check on how many online classes you can use for your major and maybe get that in writing?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Dr.Kitty]

If you have already taken "plenty of online courses already" why are you suddenly asking about it? As efle suggested, triple check on how many online classes you can use for your major and maybe get that in writing?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

My whole degree can be done online if I wanted to. I'm suddenly asking about it because I never knew taking online classes would ever be an issue. I just so happen to be lucky enough to never have taken a pre-req online because I like going to lab in person. Your comment did nothing to the discussion of how it will impact my application to medical schools. Thanks.

 

[Dr.Kitty]

For a profession that highly promotes a strong code of ethics, your question on its face is abhorrent and is not an attitude I would expect from a prospective physician.

I will continue to answer this question over and over again and again. There has been a long running debate between medical schools and undergraduate schools on the notation of online course. Medical schools want to know which courses they are while the undergraduate schools, under the philosophy that our name is on the course and the course should be as good as on the classroom version, so we are not going to notate this. However, recent changes in how AMCAS reviews and verifies transcripts that makes it automatic that courses will be identified as online. AMCAS now uses NSCH (National Student Clearing House) database to verify transcripts against their nearly complete system of college course catalogs to review the content via official description. In additional, most transcripts via the course number hold the section number which in turn will show class meeting hours, schedule or will note online, which, NSCH will pull for most schools. Medical schools are starting to utilize this as well during the pre-matriculation when, after acceptance, you must submit transcripts directly to the medical school for verification of prerequisite fulfillment and other due diligence items (even though AMCAS has done this, it is the medical school that ultimately is responsible for your acceptance and awarding of the degree). I would say in 3-5 years, every school will be doing this and will know automatically if a course is online or classroom.

Additionally, the moment you apply to any individual school, you explicitly agreeing to all their requirements and adherence admissions requirements and to applicant and student policies. Yes, you are legally under their student handbook the moment you apply. Within every student handbook/rule book, there will be a rule about misrepresentation of your application is subject to offer of acceptance being rescinded. This would mean even as a matriculated student you could be thrown out of school with no legal recourse. What a risk to take over something that if openly admitted to at pre-matriculation, can be cleared up with waiver or other scenario. I am not sure I would want to be treated by a physician who would take such risks where the medical profession has a conservative culture of practice.

Thank you for your input. I was actually under the impression by others that in the near future medical schools won't really care about online classes because a lot of students nowadays choose to watch lectures at home and many of them don't like the "traditional" setting when it comes to lecture, but your comment about the NSCH really put things into perspective. I'm definitely going to be more hesitant towards online credits now, but do you think undergrad institutions might try to get around the course number listing? I mean, could they even do such a thing? It's interesting to see this clash between undergrad institutions and med schools.

 

[efle]

I'm definitely going to be more hesitant towards online credits now, but do you think undergrad institutions might try to get around the course number listing? I mean, could they even do such a thing?

They're always going to have to mention if it is online in their course catalogs so that students will be able to see what is online! They'd have to start hiding their entire catalogs from the clearing house somehow.

When you take the online version of a class, do you go and sit for proctored exams? This is the only real difference I can see, I was one of the people that just stayed home watching recorded lectures for my prereqs, the only thing I attended were the giant closely monitored exams.

 

[Dr.Kitty]

They're always going to have to mention if it is online in their course catalogs so that students will be able to see what is online! They'd have to start hiding their entire catalogs from the clearing house somehow.

When you take the online version of a class, do you go and sit for proctored exams? This is the only real difference I can see, I was one of the people that just stayed home watching recorded lectures for my prereqs, the only thing I attended were the giant closely monitored exams.

Well, actually I go to a small 4 year and in our catalog that lists every course available it does not say whether a course is offered online not. Once you go search for classes, that's when you'll see the course number and if it's offered solely online, both online and in person, etc. Maybe that's what you meant by catalog? I did have to take my final exam in person for some, but it's not very common.

 

[partypantss]

I just absolutely don't understand the issue with online courses.. It was literally the exact same thing as the lecture version except you watched the recorded lectures rather than going to the lectures.. The tests/ quizzes were exactly the same (literally from the same Q bank.) I just don't get why med schools might be ignoring my Micro class just because I said I took it online.. It was the same exact course!

 

[efle]

It was the same exact course!

Did you take the exams at home under instruction not to cheat, or in a proctored classroom setting? The only challenge to online classes I can come up with is that the validity of self-administered tests might be questionable

 

[efle]

Well, actually I go to a small 4 year and in our catalog that lists every course available it does not say whether a course is offered online not. Once you go search for classes, that's when you'll see the course number and if it's offered solely online, both online and in person, etc. Maybe that's what you meant by catalog? I did have to take my final exam in person for some, but it's not very common.

You're quite the exception in this case, most schools publish a pdf of exactly the same names/codes/descriptions that students see during registration

 

[Dr.Kitty]

You're quite the exception in this case, most schools publish a pdf of exactly the same names/codes/descriptions that students see during registration

They have the pdf of the name, course number and descriptions, but I find it interesting that they don't have the CRN (custom register number), which is how medical schools would be able to identify the exact type of classroom setting courses I have taken were in. The CRN is only listed when you look up courses. But to be fair, I haven't seen how my transcripts look like, so they could have the CRN there. I think i'll order one to see how they look like after my first semester.

 

[Saifa]

I took online versions (still through my university) of introductory biology and statistics for scheduling purposes. I always figured my performance in other "real" classes such as calculus and cell/mol biology would make it easy to explain. I assumed I would have a much harder time justifying two semesters of sketchy online organic chemistry when everything else was done traditionally.

 

[partypantss]

Did you take the exams at home under instruction not to cheat, or in a proctored classroom setting? The only challenge to online classes I can come up with is that the validity of self-administered tests might be questionable

My school had proctored computer exam rooms that most LECTURED classes used for exams. I have never taken an exam "at home"🤣. Literally zero difference in any of my online classes vs their lectured counter part.. I went to a very large state school if that matters.

 

[efle]

My school had proctored computer exam rooms that most LECTURED classes used for exams. I have never taken an exam "at home"🤣. Literally zero difference in any of my online classes vs their lectured counter part.. I went to a very large state school if that matters.

yeah see this should be = the class

 

[Dr.Kitty]

I took online versions (still through my university) of introductory biology and statistics for scheduling purposes. I always figured my performance in other "real" classes such as calculus and cell/mol biology would make it easy to explain. I assumed I would have a much harder time justifying two semesters of sketchy online organic chemistry when everything else was done traditionally.

Have you applied to medical schools yet?

 

[Saifa]

Have you applied to medical schools yet?

Negative, sorry.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Did you take the exams at home under instruction not to cheat, or in a proctored classroom setting? The only challenge to online classes I can come up with is that the validity of self-administered tests might be questionable

So we are expected to have the honor to annotate online courses, but we can't be trusted to not have cheated in our online courses?

Most of my exams were at home and timed through matlab. The ones that weren't strictly math exams went through the plagiarism checkers, which were very sensitive.

I just find it weird that they will accept online courses if they so readily question the integrity of the student taking them.

 

[efle]

So we are expected to have the honor to annotate online courses, but we can't be trusted to not have cheated in our online courses?

Most of my exams were at home and timed through matlab. The ones that weren't strictly math exams went through the plagiarism checkers, which were very sensitive.

I just find it weird that they will accept online courses if they so readily question the integrity of the student taking them.

Well, would you see any issue with the MCAT becoming an exam that people could take with a time limit from the comfort of their own home?

I don't really see how honor comes into accurate course annotation, being online or with a lab or upper level or pass/fail...it's all just info that should be readily available to someone reviewing a transcript.

Something like a writing course where you turn in assignments electronically and they can be checked for plagiarism wouldn't worry me that much. It's more the BCPM stuff where easy access to notes, the internet, or even assistance from others just makes it seem impossible to really recreate the university testing style.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Well, would you see any issue with the MCAT becoming an exam that people could take with a time limit from the comfort of their own home?

Yes, but I also see how they aren't really the same thing.

I don't really see how honor comes into accurate course annotation, being online or with a lab or upper level or pass/fail...it's all just info that should be readily available to someone reviewing a transcript.

I was referring to @gonnif's post that saying med schools wouldn't know if a course was online is an abhorrence and not becoming of a physician.

Something like a writing course where you turn in assignments electronically and they can be checked for plagiarism wouldn't worry me that much. It's more the BCPM stuff where easy access to notes, the internet, or even assistance from others just makes it seem impossible to really recreate the university testing style.

Most of my exams had such strict time limits that if you had to look up stuff on the internet or your notes for more than one or two problems, you probably wouldn't finish the exam let alone do well.

Some people don't have a choice but to take courses online. I wouldn't take prereqs online because I don't think taking an online lab is remotely the same. But my online math courses were definitely more difficult than the ones I took in a physical classroom, the tests included.

I get the concern. But I don't get why schools even bother accepting them if they consider them all bottom barrel and question if the student cheated simply because it's an online course.

 

[ShallCallYouSquishy]

Frankly I was more annoyed at the caviler attitude that the "how hell would they know" comment as it implied they wont know if I dont tell them and I am sure hell aint gonna tell them

Hey buddy! I'm that guy. Let's talk, mmmkay?


Before we begin, check your God-like SDN status at the door and hold on to your valet ticket. I couldn't care less that freshman everywhere clamor for your opinion like bugs to a light. And true, true, maybe one day I'll really need your input and regret you...... but I really doubt it.


Now enough fluff and down to business! So here's the thing- I'm new to this site but not new to life. I don't know you and you don't know me... so for you to make a snap judgement about my ethics or my future ability to cut it as a physician from *literally* one sentence is the very epitome of a malignantly poor attitude.

Here ye, here ye! Allow me to return the "snap judgement" favor you've delt and recap for a moment... we're two seconds in and in my mind you're already that doc who gets a million negative "he couldn't be bothered to listen to me and two days later I had to go to the ED for XXX that he missed" reviews.

How'd that make you feel? Not so great, right? That some random guy (or gal) out there on the interwebs would just come along and kick you in that magnificent crotch without even getting to know ya or appreciating the fact that you were just innocently trying to do the same to them!


And while you and I are at it, simmer down there Judgy McJudgersson. The question was a real one and the incredulity was deliberate - having just come back from a meeting with the administrators of my institution, I can definitively state that they don't transmit any data to any clearing house or other entity (transcripts included) that denotes whether or not the class was taken on-campus or online. Add to that the fact that their course catalog data sets for past academic years is only available to the "public" (aka those w/o an active university login) for the current year and the two past academic years and the question rings even more true.

Oh and here's another ingredient for the Mamma's Flame Stew you and I are cooking up... the Director of Records personally said this (and I quote) : "Hmmm, you know I've actually never been asked that! My answer would be no, they wouldn't be able to tell. They can see the course info in the online catalog if it's still there but there isn't a list of sections numbers in that resource. And it's the course section numbers that identify the particulars of a class- who teaches it, when it's taught, in what classroom or online. I guess they could call Records and ask but what school adcom / admin is going to wait on hold for 35 minutes just to ask that? Where are you applying to anyway, (my_name_here)? The University of WeOnlyAdmitWhiteSuperHeroesWithHugeGenitalia??? And even if you were applying there, why would they care? Honestly If they're so naive about the current state of academia as to think that online classes at an already prestigious and accredited institution are not acceptable then you shouldn't even give them the time of day". 😍

Chancellor of our institution, at the same Military Honors Luncheon that this conversation took place at, overhears the Director of Records getting worked up and walks over. DoR fills him in on my question and Chancellor immediately demands to know what school would asking such a thing. I begin to say "Well sir, on SDN I read that... "

And that's all I managed to get out before he laughed hard and exclaimed, "Ohhh. Ha! Those quacks! What a miserable bunch. Our PreMed advisors spend half their day undoing the damage that ****ing website does to people. As long as it isn't online Chemistry or the likes, which we don't offer very much on purpose, you'll be fine. If they can't accept that, walk away. You're better than them!".

Do keep in mind that this is a Top 20 Undergrad institution (Source: 2015 US News & World Report rankings) and not some backwoods po'dunk shill.


Tl;Dr... you're so wrong.


Or in the words of the great Dr. Cox...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong;
You're wrong!
You're wrong!
You're wrooooooonnnnnnggggggg!

 

[doctorbob23]

When I applied they just cared that you didn't take your pre-reqs online. Any other class is fine. 1 or 2 classes won't hurt you but don't get your entire degree online

 

[Endoxifen]

I don't mean to draw from OP, but I'd like some advice on the same topic. I'm moving next semester to my college's medical school (hours away from the main campus). I'm doing my honors thesis work there and to keep up with my gen eds (French 2), I'm going to take the course online. Do you think this will be frowned upon? Will an explanation suffice?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Frankly I was more annoyed at the caviler attitude that the "how hell would they know" comment as it implied they wont know if I dont tell them and I am sure hell aint gonna tell them

Got it!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Hey buddy! I'm that guy. Let's talk, mmmkay?


Before we begin, check your God-like SDN status at the door and hold on to your valet ticket. I couldn't care less that freshman everywhere clamor for your opinion like bugs to a light. And true, true, maybe one day I'll really need your input and regret you...... but I really doubt it.


Now enough fluff and down to business! So here's the thing- I'm new to this site but not new to life. I don't know you and you don't know me... so for you to make a snap judgement about my ethics or my future ability to cut it as a physician from *literally* one sentence is the very epitome of a malignantly poor attitude.

Here ye, here ye! Allow me to return the "snap judgement" favor you've delt and recap for a moment... we're two seconds in and in my mind you're already that doc who gets a million negative "he couldn't be bothered to listen to me and two days later I had to go to the ED for XXX that he missed" reviews.

How'd that make you feel? Not so great, right? That some random guy (or gal) out there on the interwebs would just come along and kick you in that magnificent crotch without even getting to know ya or appreciating the fact that you were just innocently trying to do the same to them!


And while you and I are at it, simmer down there Judgy McJudgersson. The question was a real one and the incredulity was deliberate - having just come back from a meeting with the administrators of my institution, I can definitively state that they don't transmit any data to any clearing house or other entity (transcripts included) that denotes whether or not the class was taken on-campus or online. Add to that the fact that their course catalog data sets for past academic years is only available to the "public" (aka those w/o an active university login) for the current year and the two past academic years and the question rings even more true.

Oh and here's another ingredient for the Mamma's Flame Stew you and I are cooking up... the Director of Records personally said this (and I quote) : "Hmmm, you know I've actually never been asked that! My answer would be no, they wouldn't be able to tell. They can see the course info in the online catalog if it's still there but there isn't a list of sections numbers in that resource. And it's the course section numbers that identify the particulars of a class- who teaches it, when it's taught, in what classroom or online. I guess they could call Records and ask but what school adcom / admin is going to wait on hold for 35 minutes just to ask that? Where are you applying to anyway, (my_name_here)? The University of WeOnlyAdmitWhiteSuperHeroesWithHugeGenitalia??? And even if you were applying there, why would they care? Honestly If they're so naive about the current state of academia as to think that online classes at an already prestigious and accredited institution are not acceptable then you shouldn't even give them the time of day". 😍

Chancellor of our institution, at the same Military Honors Luncheon that this conversation took place at, overhears the Director of Records getting worked up and walks over. DoR fills him in on my question and Chancellor immediately demands to know what school would asking such a thing. I begin to say "Well sir, on SDN I read that... "

And that's all I managed to get out before he laughed hard and exclaimed, "Ohhh. Ha! Those quacks! What a miserable bunch. Our PreMed advisors spend half their day undoing the damage that ****ing website does to people. As long as it isn't online Chemistry or the likes, which we don't offer very much on purpose, you'll be fine. If they can't accept that, walk away. You're better than them!".

Do keep in mind that this is a Top 20 Undergrad institution (Source: 2015 US News & World Report rankings) and not some backwoods po'dunk shill.


Tl;Dr... you're so wrong.


Or in the words of the great Dr. Cox...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong;
You're wrong!
You're wrong!
You're wrooooooonnnnnnggggggg!

Well you certainly told him.

Also, you forgot a line of "wrongs."

 

[Saifa]

Hey buddy! I'm that guy. Let's talk, mmmkay?


Before we begin, check your God-like SDN status at the door and hold on to your valet ticket. I couldn't care less that freshman everywhere clamor for your opinion like bugs to a light. And true, true, maybe one day I'll really need your input and regret you...... but I really doubt it.


Now enough fluff and down to business! So here's the thing- I'm new to this site but not new to life. I don't know you and you don't know me... so for you to make a snap judgement about my ethics or my future ability to cut it as a physician from *literally* one sentence is the very epitome of a malignantly poor attitude.

Here ye, here ye! Allow me to return the "snap judgement" favor you've delt and recap for a moment... we're two seconds in and in my mind you're already that doc who gets a million negative "he couldn't be bothered to listen to me and two days later I had to go to the ED for XXX that he missed" reviews.

How'd that make you feel? Not so great, right? That some random guy (or gal) out there on the interwebs would just come along and kick you in that magnificent crotch without even getting to know ya or appreciating the fact that you were just innocently trying to do the same to them!


And while you and I are at it, simmer down there Judgy McJudgersson. The question was a real one and the incredulity was deliberate - having just come back from a meeting with the administrators of my institution, I can definitively state that they don't transmit any data to any clearing house or other entity (transcripts included) that denotes whether or not the class was taken on-campus or online. Add to that the fact that their course catalog data sets for past academic years is only available to the "public" (aka those w/o an active university login) for the current year and the two past academic years and the question rings even more true.

Oh and here's another ingredient for the Mamma's Flame Stew you and I are cooking up... the Director of Records personally said this (and I quote) : "Hmmm, you know I've actually never been asked that! My answer would be no, they wouldn't be able to tell. They can see the course info in the online catalog if it's still there but there isn't a list of sections numbers in that resource. And it's the course section numbers that identify the particulars of a class- who teaches it, when it's taught, in what classroom or online. I guess they could call Records and ask but what school adcom / admin is going to wait on hold for 35 minutes just to ask that? Where are you applying to anyway, (my_name_here)? The University of WeOnlyAdmitWhiteSuperHeroesWithHugeGenitalia??? And even if you were applying there, why would they care? Honestly If they're so naive about the current state of academia as to think that online classes at an already prestigious and accredited institution are not acceptable then you shouldn't even give them the time of day". 😍

Chancellor of our institution, at the same Military Honors Luncheon that this conversation took place at, overhears the Director of Records getting worked up and walks over. DoR fills him in on my question and Chancellor immediately demands to know what school would asking such a thing. I begin to say "Well sir, on SDN I read that... "

And that's all I managed to get out before he laughed hard and exclaimed, "Ohhh. Ha! Those quacks! What a miserable bunch. Our PreMed advisors spend half their day undoing the damage that ****ing website does to people. As long as it isn't online Chemistry or the likes, which we don't offer very much on purpose, you'll be fine. If they can't accept that, walk away. You're better than them!".

Do keep in mind that this is a Top 20 Undergrad institution (Source: 2015 US News & World Report rankings) and not some backwoods po'dunk shill.


Tl;Dr... you're so wrong.


Or in the words of the great Dr. Cox...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong;
You're wrong!
You're wrong!
You're wrooooooonnnnnnggggggg!

I know medical advice is not permitted on SDN, but God, do I feel sick.

 

[Gurby]

When I applied they just cared that you didn't take your pre-reqs online.

They care that you don't take pre-req's online, but do they explicitly state that you can't, generally? I'm trying to figure out the most efficient way to take OChem 2 this Spring prior to matriculation.

 

[doctorbob23]

They care that you don't take pre-req's online, but do they explicitly state that you can't, generally? I'm trying to figure out the most efficient way to take OChem 2 this Spring prior to matriculation.

It varies with each school just like AP credits. The info is on the msar

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

Did you take the exams at home under instruction not to cheat, or in a proctored classroom setting? The only challenge to online classes I can come up with is that the validity of self-administered tests might be questionable

Ironic considering that some med schools use self-administered online exams now (looking at you Mt. Sinai)

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

For a profession that highly promotes a strong code of ethics, your question on its face is abhorrent and is not an attitude I would expect from a prospective physician.

Well it just wouldn't be SDN without someone immediately jumping to conclusions about someone's ability as a future physician based on a single post...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

As I said previously, AMCAS has used the offical college course catalog description for basis of content and classification of courses amassing a large paper collection of them. After trying to develop its own system to systemically access these beginning at the same time it went to an online applicationin 2000, it has instead turned to the National Student Clearing House which maintains its own database of college catalogs for use with numerous federal, state and private educational groups(such as states college associations), for automating transcript verification. Since many universities interface with the NSCH, including automated transcript services, and many schools include class/section number with course number, this creates a mechanism for identifying online classes.

Additionally, as I said previously, since medical school do not check for prerequisites until you have been accepted during the prematriculation phase, having a hundred or two hundred students to check, the vast majority that will be quite straight foward, having just a dozen or so students with issues that need to further investigated arent really much of an issue.

Just out of curiosity, do they ask if a course you took was online? I've never applied so I don't know. It just seems like a weird thing to even be in a position to lie about.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

As I said previously the implication that a prospective physician would start their career unethically by implying that he/she would not inform a medical of something they have explicitly and implicitly attested is abhorrent to me. I stand by my statement as to the attitude of such a person

I feel you, but we are talking about the disclosure of non-prerequisite online courses, possibly the most insignificant thing in their application. Your response read as if they were lying about a felony charge or something. Just came off as a little harsh.