Online Pre Med lab courses

[samisab786]

immunology is not a prereq for med school so it doesn't really generate the same issues raised in this thread.

I was thinking about taking an online Ochem class through UC Berkeley because it is very hard for me to commute to Berkeley's campus and also Berkeley's extension classes are not always offered at the university itself.

I don't know about labs since you actually have to do stuff, but why would lecture classes via online learning be deemed unworthy? My chemistry lecture is SO boring. I almost fall sleep in that class. I feel like I could just read the book at home and learn just as much, perhaps even more. What if taking an online class might help us learn even better? I thought school was about LEARNING...not about sticking to standards. Berkeley extension offers a proctored final, so it's not like you can open-book yourself through the whole class.

And those who have taken Berkeley extension online courses, does the word "online" appear on your transcript?

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[notdeadyet]

And those who have taken Berkeley extension online courses, does the word "online" appear on your transcript?

Mine did.

I have no interest in getting into the debate about the value of online learning. I worked in interactive learning for a number of years and have pretty strong feelings about their value.

But whether or not you learn well online is irrelevant. It's a question of how med schools will receive it. For a class or two, you'll be fine.

Most schools I talked to, when asked, said they would not accept online learning for prerequisites. Some would. Most would not.

You can still do online learning for prereqs and get accepted to medical school. You're just narrowing down your list of options to a much smaller subset of schools.

You can also show up to your interview in a tee-shirt and jeans (you rebel, you). You may get accepted.

But in general, avoid any actions that reduce your odds of acceptance. The odds are already long. You'll meet lots of independent, progressive, rebellious thinkers in medical school. But all of them were smart enough to pick their battles. Missing out on becoming a doctor because of a philosophical stance on online learning is dumb beyond words.

Best of luck to all in their application cycle.

 

[samisab786]

Mine did.

I have no interest in getting into the debate about the value of online learning. I worked in interactive learning for a number of years and have pretty strong feelings about their value.

But whether or not you learn well online is irrelevant. It's a question of how med schools will receive it. For a class or two, you'll be fine.

Most schools I talked to, when asked, said they would not accept online learning for prerequisites. Some would. Most would not.

You can still do online learning for prereqs and get accepted to medical school. You're just narrowing down your list of options to a much smaller subset of schools.

You can also show up to your interview in a tee-shirt and jeans (you rebel, you). You may get accepted.

But in general, avoid any actions that reduce your odds of acceptance. The odds are already long. You'll meet lots of independent, progressive, rebellious thinkers in medical school. But all of them were smart enough to pick their battles. Missing out on becoming a doctor because of a philosophical stance on online learning is dumb beyond words.

Best of luck to all in their application cycle.

No, I know what you are saying. I understand that medical schools are probably filtering out the students who take online courses/community college courses because they are not certain if the amount of preparedness these courses will give will match with the rigor of what is needed to participate in med school and there certainly is no efficient way of measuring if a community college/online course teaches better than a university level course. I'm just contemplating on my summertime options. I really get bored when I have nothing to do in the summer and knowing how busy I'll be during the school year, I wanted to offset some of my courseload so that it doesn't become oversly science-heavy for a single semester, so I guess I'll just figure out a way to work around that.

Thanks for yo insight . Yeah, I am sort of a rebel but not like a jeans-and-dirty-clothes-on-an-interview rebel.

 

[notdeadyet]

there certainly is no efficient way of measuring if a community college/online course teaches better than a university level course.

You're fine with community college courses. There are two med schools that don't accept them. Go for it. But most med schools do not accept online learning for prereqs. Avoid.

 

[student1799]

Mock on, Mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau;
Mock on, Mock on, 'tis all in vain.
You throw the sand against the wind,
And the wind blows it back again.
And every sand becomes a Gem
Reflected in the beams divine;
Blown back, they blind the mocking Eye,
But still in Israel's paths they shine.
The Atoms of Democritus
And Newton's Particles of light
Are sands upon the Red sea shore,
Where Israel's tents do shine so bright

W. Blake

Your technocratic obsession with the labs notwithstanding, I will enter medical school on my own terms.

Last Samurai

I'll see your Blake, and raise you a Shelley:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

In other words, beware of hubris.

 

[bobat]

Which two med schools don't accept community college courses?
Also would it look bad to take calculus as an online course?

 

[riverjib]

Does anyone have any experience with the online pre med lab courses at ccconline.org ? The schedule flexibility of the online courses is why I am looking. As far as can tell they should satisfy any premed requirements.

Thanks

Huh? How can you do a chemistry lab online? CC's are great for BCPM classes, especially if you plan to transfer and "prove" your CC classes were worthwhile by achieving similar grades in upper-level classes. But online labs sound sketchy at best. I'd consult with multiple medical schools before deciding to spend your money and time taking this gamble.

 

[riverjib]

Maybe they send you a kit or something..lol. However I don't know how one would get the reagents. I can't just go to Safeway and ask for BSA.

But you can go to Safeway and get non-fat milk, which is what we use to block in our lab

Seriously, I'd advise you to take ALL BCPM classes in a real classroom and lab setting. Everything else is up to you and your pre-med adviser, but be careful.

 

[NTF]

I take your words, QofQuimica, as the throwing of the gauntlet. Very well, nothing will give me more satisfaction than to post of my successes on this forum. Untill then, I will follow the only path open to me in spite of the naysayers.

Last Samurai

Oh the melodrama!

Not sure if it was worth resurrecting this thread but it was entertaining to read nonetheless. Hopefully, LastSamurai made it to med school and mellowed out a bit.

 

[QofQuimica]

Oh the melodrama!

Not sure if it was worth resurrecting this thread but it was entertaining to read nonetheless. Hopefully, LastSamurai made it to med school and mellowed out a bit.

I had forgotten about this thread. You're right; it's too bad LS never came back to tell us what happened.

All kidding aside, if anyone out there is contemplating online prereqs, please seriously reconsider. That is not the kind of thing that an adcom would look upon positively, *especially* if you're trying to overcome poor UG grades. You must always remember who your audience is when you apply to medical school. There are basically three types of people who compose an adcom: academic MDs, PhD researchers, and medical students. Since medicine tends toward the conservative side, you are not likely to find many advocates among the first group. This will be particularly true for the senior MDs who, as it is, think that we med students have things "too easy" compared to how it was back in their day. The second group will laugh your app right into the trash. From a scientist's perspective, you can't truly learn science without spending time in the lab. The third group may or may not have some sympathy for you, but you can't count on that. In my experience, many times student adcoms can be just as hard, or even harder, on applicants than faculty adcoms are.

At my school, the adcom frowns upon CC classes, but will consider them if you have taken subsequent higher level science courses at a four-year school, gotten good grades in all of these classes, and done well on the MCAT. However, the farther off the beaten path you go, the higher the bar will be raised. Again, medicine is a conservative profession. If you want to be a maverick and do your own thing instead of following the beaten path most of the time, you may want to reconsider whether medicine is the best career choice for you.

 

[futureboy]

I looked at the University of New England in Maine. It offers online prereqs with labs. The classes are actually offered through their medical school, which I believe is a DO school. For the labs, they send you the chemicals/lab kit in the mail. You take the tests on campus or in front of a local proctor. It sounds like an intriguing option because I've already completed some, but not all, of my prereqs and labs at a brick and mortar 4-year university. I probably won't do it, though, for the reasons stated above.

 

[DPT2DO]

Regarding the classes at Univ of New England, I took 2, 4-credit pre-req courses online there. I'm simultaneously taking the rest of the pre-req's + upper levels at harvard extension. I crammed everything together so that I could apply this upcoming year while still working full time, and hopefully the 2 online courses don't kill my chances. I feel that they were very good quality (even the labs), and have earned A's in everything, both online and harvard ext classes. I understand that this will probably hurt me, but hopefully a great MCAT + the rest of my app will make up for it. I'll report back in about a year...

 

[lovemesomeTJ]

Hi, Q of Quimica.

I've been taking classes here and there at community college. All of my sciences have been taken live (only took Anatomy and Micro at CC-level, and not to fulfill pre-reqs; all other sciences taken at 4-year undergrad), but I wonder if med schools would count courses I've taken online and at CC-level against me (like English, which I would like to take this coming semester)? They're not to fulfill pre-reqs; just for personal enjoyment and to cut costs.

Any thoughts?

 

[futureboy]

Regarding the classes at Univ of New England, I took 2, 4-credit pre-req courses online there..

Do the UNE classes show up on your transcript as being online?

 

[futureboy]

One would think med schools should accept the UNE classes as because they're offered by another med school...maybe someday.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi, Q of Quimica.

I've been taking classes here and there at community college. All of my sciences have been taken live (only took Anatomy and Micro at CC-level, and not to fulfill pre-reqs; all other sciences taken at 4-year undergrad), but I wonder if med schools would count courses I've taken online and at CC-level against me (like English, which I would like to take this coming semester)? They're not to fulfill pre-reqs; just for personal enjoyment and to cut costs.

Any thoughts?

Just to make sure I understand: you've taken most of your coursework, including all the science prereqs, at a four-year school. Plus you've taken some additional classes just for fun at a CC. Assuming you've done well in all of your classes and on the MCAT, no, I don't think a few CC classes will matter. Where people run into a problem sometimes is when they take most or all of their prereqs at a CC. Couple that with no subsequent higher-level coursework at a 4-yr school, so-so grades, and/or a so-so MCAT, and then you've got a less than ideal situation.

I'm not sure about whether taking English at a CC would matter to any adcoms, because many med schools do require English as a prereq. However, I think it would probably matter less since many schools, including mine, allow substitution with HS AP credit, other writing-intensive courses, etc. If you want to be on the safe side, you may want to contact a few of the schools you plan to apply to so that you can confirm that an online English class would satisfy their requirement. Best of luck to you.

 

[shtupnski]

Has anyone had success with the UNE Post Baccalaureate Sequence?

 

[dawgbone]

For what it's worth -- this from a top 5 admissions office:

We wouldn't recommended any on-line course work. The difficulties in balancing work and academics is nothing new to admission committees and while some disciplines are moving towards a greater understanding and acceptance of internet-based/on-line study, medical schools have not necessarily advanced to a place where on-line courses are embraced. Whether or not that is fair is up for debate but it's not something we would encourage at this particular point in time.

I think that's an accurate summary of the preponderance of opinions from competitive med school adcoms.

 

[jl lin]

Online LAB courses?! That is the end! I have enough difficulty accepting the idea of online courses for lecture- or reading-based subject matter. I cannot conceive of an online lab course having anywhere near the educational value of a real-live classroom setting. I guess we all do what we have to, but...do you really HAVE to go this route?

Best,
NYM

See, I agree about the labs; b/c there is just something about being in a real life lab with others--even the smells. lol

As for other online courses, well, I've taken some, and when they said writing intensive, you better believe they were. You researched and wrote you but off or you won't get crap for a grade. You must constantly participate and do so in a particular way (strict rubrics), or you will not get credit for the participation.

I have to say that some online courses are tougher than just showing up to class and sitting there and then doing the homework, some projects, and tests. Seriously. I think it depends on the course and how rigorous it is. Some professors take their courses way serious, and they will not just hand out some grade. Academic honesty is huge too. You are required to sign your life away and do other things to ensure integrity. They also have anti-plagarism software that sifts through you work.

These kinds of courses tend to cost some money too.

 

[jl lin]

For what it's worth -- this from a top 5 admissions office:

We wouldn't recommended any on-line course work. The difficulties in balancing work and academics is nothing new to admission committees and while some disciplines are moving towards a greater understanding and acceptance of internet-based/on-line study, medical schools have not necessarily advanced to a place where on-line courses are embraced. Whether or not that is fair is up for debate but it's not something we would encourage at this particular point in time.

I think that's an accurate summary of the preponderance of opinions from competitive med school adcoms.

Again, I think this is most applicable to say, serious hard science courses with labs.

Other courses do exceptionally well using this format, and they often include documentary as well as real time interaction.

 

[wagmanager]

Just around how many upper level science courses does one need to do to prove their academic prowess ?

 

[mafunk]

The schools I've called accept online. One online program that is specifically designed for PreMeds is University of New England.

Their classes are extremely well organized, have lab and I feel like I'm learning.

 

[Laji]

How the heck does that even work??? Do-it-at-home gel electrophoresis??? Do you have to buy your own micropipettes??? I could see doing some lectures on line, but lab by its very nature is supposed to a class where you learn by doing experiments, well, IN A LAB!!!!

I knew someone who was taking on-line biology w/ lab and yes, she had to rent a microscope and they shipped her half of a pig that she had to keep in her fridge for the duration of the course.

 

[jl lin]

Oh and I forgot to mention with re: to this particularly worn topic. . .

 

[gonnif]

Since this issue has generated enough questions from premedical students, prehealth advisors, and admissions offices, the MSAR (medical school admissions requirements) now has noted which schools will and will not accept online courses for the required prerequisite courses. In the two page format that summarizes each allopathic medical school, it notes on the very top of the right hand page under

"Premedical Coursework
On-line courses accepted in fulfillment of prerequisites: Yes/No"

 

[jd221b]

Since this issue has generated enough questions from premedical students, prehealth advisors, and admissions offices, the MSAR (medical school admissions requirements) now has noted which schools will and will not accept online courses for the required prerequisite courses. In the two page format that summarizes each allopathic medical school, it notes on the very top of the right hand page under

"Premedical Coursework
On-line courses accepted in fulfillment of prerequisites: Yes/No"

Do you know what version of MSAR this first shows up in?

 

[gonnif]

Do you know what version of MSAR this first shows up in?

it is in the 2011-2012 MSAR
it was not in the 2009-2010
I do not have the 2010-2011 to check

So it was last year at the earliest but likely just this year

 

[LegendaryPunk]

I really enjoy reading threads that span multiple years. It's uplifting to read advice from people who were obviously pre-meds when the topic originally started, but now have the status of Medical Student or Resident; gives a little more credability to their words of wisdom.

It is also somewhat telling when people make a bold statment along the lines of, "I'm forging a new path and doing things MY way," - and still hold the Pre-Med label. I know that is far from the best way of knowing whether they succeeded or not (could leave the boards, not update status etc.), but I think on some level it further proves the point that breaking new ground in the admissions process is a difficult task.

 

[jl lin]

I really enjoy reading threads that span multiple years. It's uplifting to read advice from people who were obviously pre-meds when the topic originally started, but now have the status of Medical Student or Resident; gives a little more credability to their words of wisdom.

It is also somewhat telling when people make a bold statment along the lines of, "I'm forging a new path and doing things MY way," - and still hold the Pre-Med label. I know that is far from the best way of knowing whether they succeeded or not (could leave the boards, not update status etc.), but I think on some level it further proves the point that breaking new ground in the admissions process is a difficult task.

LP (Oh cool. So now I'll think of you as a lumbar puncture. lol), this topic has been more than the ole "Are DO's really as much physicians as MDs?" argument. (God it pains me to look at those threads.)

At the end of the day, it is only when you walk the particular path that you MAY be able to appreciate +s and -s.

Gonnif hit it right. You have to research the particular schools.

For me, I say, yet again, other courses, depending upon the school, can be fine for online; but when it comes to the lab sciences, just go on campus.

You have to make the right kind of connections for LORs.

Also, most of the labs are better when you are working in a group (or with a partner) in a real lab setting. (Although some lab partners will drive you a little nuts, and you'll end up fantasizing about taking the whole thing online.)

Virtual labs can only go so far. If it weren't for those things, depending on the school and the programs, I know I would be totally open.



I have taken online courses that were way more involved and required a lot more work than those where you walk or drive to class on campus.

See, for discussion and interaction, for example, they have to make things up (compensate for what is felt you'd be missing by not actually getting into your car, wasting gas and time, and sitting in the classroom with other classmates.) So, what do they do? Well instead of you listening to some slub/s get into a discussion with the prof or whomever, you have to go the extra mile of making contributions in writing (really equals more work, but often are well worth it). (Also there is realtime discussions that are scheduled where you use headsets and talk with others--This will probably move to something like class skype for more places in the future.)
Anyway, those written DP contributions have to meet certain standards and meet certain deadlines. There are rubrics for them.

So you can go to some "regular" classes and do the assignments and tests and projects and get a grade, but with the kinds of courses I've taken, you can't get away with zero to little participation without losing serious pointage. You must intelligently address the topics at hand, weaving in pertinent points, following the rules of good writing, citing sources properly, etc, and generating some intelligent interaction in order to get an "A" on that aspect of your grade.

In other words, you can get great test grades, etc, but b/c of not meeting the specific discussion rubrics, you will not get an "A" in the course.

Now compare that with going to class, doing your work and tests, and letting the slub/s do all the interactions. You could cruise through that, text message on the slide (lol), visit the inside of your eyelids, and still get an "A" in the course.

So anyone that dares to tell me that some of the online courses are easy and not respectable gets an ignorance slap in my book. Yes, it is school dependent as well.

But, once more, I think it is risky taking the pre-req sciences w/ labs online. Now if it is hybrid, where the labs are on campus, that is different.

So even if you get an "OK" from a medical school on this, it is still risky. And there seems to be enough risk already in the whole process.

Jusy my final thoughts on the well worn topic.

And no. I am not checking my grammar or style or any of that.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

So even if you get an "OK" from a medical school on this, it is still risky. And there seems to be enough risk already in the whole process.

This. x1000.

You do what you absolutely have to do, but given the option you take the path that keeps the most doors open. Period. Its tough enough to get in; self-inflicted wounds should be avoided.

 

[EdLongshanks]

This. x1000.

You do what you absolutely have to do, but given the option you take the path that keeps the most doors open. Period. Its tough enough to get in; self-inflicted wounds should be avoided.

I'm glad someone resurrected this thread. It is interesting to see a repetition of the same arguments that Q, ScottishChap, and Law2Doc argued against 5 years ago, when they were pre-med. Those who made the pro-online argument all of those years ago are still pre-med.

 

[jl lin]

I don't remember taking you off of ignore, but whatever.

If that comment was directed toward me; guess what dude? I wasn't here five years ago.

Even if I had been, you are so *&%^(^$@ jugmental to presume to know what is going on with people and their lives.

I don't care how old you are. You are going to face some humble pie one day. I hope you eat it and grow.

Finally, regardless of my position on online schooling (it depends, as I said, pay attention), I have agreed repeatedly that people should take the appropriate sciences and labs on campus or at least do hybrid.


So you actually enjoy trying to rub people the wrong way. Medicine is going to be a huge eye openner for you. Trust me on that one. I'd take it to the bank.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I don't remember taking you off of ignore, but whatever.

If that comment was directed toward me; guess what dude? I wasn't here five years ago.

Even if I had been, you are so *&%^(^$@ jugmental to presume to know what is going on with people and their lives.

I don't care how old you are. You are going to face some humble pie one day. I hope you eat it and grow.

Finally, regardless of my position on online schooling (it depends, as I said, pay attention), I have agreed repeatedly that people should take the appropriate sciences and labs on campus or at least do hybrid.


So you actually enjoy trying to rub people the wrong way. Medicine is going to be a huge eye openner for you. Trust me on that one. I'd take it to the bank.

jl - chill out. There is specific discussion above his post talking about the people advocating for online classes, and it isn't you. Your initiate-umbrage-alarm needs a calibration.

 

[jl lin]

jl - chill out. There is specific discussion above his post talking about the people advocating for online classes, and it isn't you. Your initiate-umbrage-alarm needs a calibration.

Take a private poll on some and the judgmental factor.


What's more, the dude is so often presuming to make negative innuendos about the lives of others. He has done with me and SEVERAL others.

True is true. Why does he have to make presumptions about others personally? He doesn't know their lives? It's wrong and his judgmentalism is going to be a problem.

One word makes it clear: Condescending.

No kindness is done there with ignoring it.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Take a private poll on some and the judgmental factor.


What's more, the dude is so often presuming to make negative innuendos about the lives of others. He has done with me and SEVERAL others.

True is true. Why does he have to make presumptions about others personally? He doesn't know their lives? It's wrong and his judgmentalism is going to be a problem.

One word makes it clear: Condescending.

No kindness is done there with ignoring it.

Something about a pot and kettle, jl. Put ELS back on ignore and carry on. There's nothing to see here.

 

[jl lin]

Something about a pot and kettle, jl. Put ELS back on ignore and carry on. There's nothing to see here.

No pot and kettle at all. I try not to judge other peoples' lives and such.

People know I am not a judgmental arse.


Done that before you replied back.




Judgmentalism has NO place in medicine and caring for sick people.

Don't show favoritism or whatever.

His judgmentalism is beyond irksome and people know it.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think the OP's question has been more than adequately beaten into the ground. Closing.