Open Carry

[UscGhost]

---

Members do not see this ad.

There are many more dangerous recreational activities that guns.

Not in terms of total number of deaths

 

[arkgal]

Not in terms of total number of deaths

Can you cite evidence? Death rates are a more accurate way to compare activities.

-Fewer than 100 firearm related fatalities in hunting per year
-Most hunting deaths are related to tree stands
-According to the statistics, hunting is safer than golf.
-About 120 dirt bike riders die annually

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://westfordma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2430/Hunting-Is-Safer-Than-Golf-and-Most-Other-Activities-PDF&ved=2ahUKEwigk9XbptiQAxUN78kDHZXOEtoQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2RQWKlmVDmdozqlqpX9uVg

Drop in hunting accidents shows safety is everything | Penney & Associates - Personal Injury Lawyers

Hunting is one of America’s favorite outdoor recreational activities. With around 15 million hunting license holders, it’s a lifestyle, sport, way of obtaining food, and sometimes also a source of income that brings people together across the country. In 2021, the number of hunting licenses...

www.penneylawyers.com

Hunting Is Safe: A Look at Hunting Versus Other Activities

Hunting Is Safe: A Look at Hunting Versus Other Activities - Hunting is not dangerous. Here are common activities with greater risks...

huntingleases.basecampleasing.com

The Dangers of Dirt Biking and Off-Roading Reported

The thrill of the open trail and the rush of adrenaline draw countless riders of dirt bikes and all-terrain vehicles (ATVs) to Kern County's rural and

www.chainlaw.com

 

[Southpaw]

We disagree the bar was “low” in Weavers case.

I certainly don’t disagree with the BLM movement in response to a cop literally murdering a man in broad daylight. I am a huge proponent of individual rights, including the right to assembly if that wasn’t obvious. However, I certainly disagree with the violence associated with BLM protests as explained in the previous post.




I really don’t understand this logic. Sovereignty exists in the inherent rights of the people. If you are waiting around for the government to tell you if and when and how to exercise your rights, democracy is not for you.



I guess they could? But, talk about an irrational fear. That literally doesn’t happen. 250 years and we have a handful of instances where 2A has arguably been used against tyranny in the US. Probably because lawful gun owners are by definition law abiding, and rational people. They understand the checks usually work, and there are avenues for justice that are usually available. They own guns in part as a passive check to keep the system on the rails. God forbid if it ever goes off the track, they can use them in that case too.

It’s a dangerous place, needing to prove to someone why you need certain rights. Thank God that’s not the way it works in practice, for now.

This is a good post, thank you. I wonder what your thoughts are on violent arrests on American citizens by ICE/Border Patrol in Evanston? Are we only seeing the after effects of a non peaceful assembly? Would ICE/Border Patrol question their tactics if these peaceful assemblers exercising their first amendment rights were armed and made it known they’re armed? Curious as to your thoughts. Surely you can guess I believe ICE and Border Patrol have crossed the line in an extreme manner.

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Do you own a firearm? Maybe you should look up the requirements to lawfully own one.

You said all legal guns owners are rational(ill leave that go) and law abiding. Are you trying to be difficult or what?

Stephen paddock was he law abiding?
You're just saying whatever you want now

Tyranny this and weaver that, all legal. 2a do whatever you want. Vague stuff

 

[arkgal]

Found this timely article in my newsfeed. It's am interesting hypothesis. Maybe explains the line between right wing extremism and gun use. I removed the pay wall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/04/briefing/at-the-gun-range.html?unlocked_article_code=1.yk8.7KsU.zP8ms5ZOoSyx&smid=nytcore-android-share

 

[arkgal]

I wasn't being serious about right wing extremism and gun use, btw. The article pertains to blast waves created with indoor gun range use. The writer is a gun owner.

"The data showed that smaller-caliber guns can pose a danger pretty quickly, and that large-caliber civilian rifles delivered a blast wave that exceeds what the military says is safe for the brain. Indoor ranges, designed to make shooting safe, can worsen blast exposure, they discovered.

And to show what happens when you fire a large-caliber rifle, he hung a sheet of silk chiffon fabric alongside the prone body of the shooter. (“I spent way too much time in fabric shops in the garment district looking for that,” he said.) Seen in real time, nothing really happens. When he slowed the film, though, the illustration tells a whole story: A powerful wave runs through the fabric when the firing pin hits the cartridge, all but enveloping the shooter’s skull in 7.6 pounds per square inch of concussive pressure.

How harmful are those concussive waves on the body? Scientists have yet to answer that clearly, though the military considers some of them unsafe. A recently retired Army blast safety researcher told Dave that repeated blast exposures, however small, may cause damage. “Stretch a rubber band a hundred times and it bounces back, but there are microtears forming,” he said. “The 101st time, it breaks.”"

Target Shooting Could Be Causing Brain Injuries. We Measured the Danger.

The Times tested the blast waves of several popular civilian guns at an indoor range and found that repeated firing could add up to potentially harmful exposure.

www.nytimes.com

 

[UscGhost]

Can you cite evidence? Death rates are a more accurate way to compare activities.

-Fewer than 100 firearm related fatalities in hunting per year
-Most hunting deaths are related to tree stands
-According to the statistics, hunting is safer than golf.
-About 120 dirt bike riders die annually

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://westfordma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2430/Hunting-Is-Safer-Than-Golf-and-Most-Other-Activities-PDF&ved=2ahUKEwigk9XbptiQAxUN78kDHZXOEtoQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2RQWKlmVDmdozqlqpX9uVg

Drop in hunting accidents shows safety is everything | Penney & Associates - Personal Injury Lawyers

Hunting is one of America’s favorite outdoor recreational activities. With around 15 million hunting license holders, it’s a lifestyle, sport, way of obtaining food, and sometimes also a source of income that brings people together across the country. In 2021, the number of hunting licenses...

www.penneylawyers.com

Hunting Is Safe: A Look at Hunting Versus Other Activities

Hunting Is Safe: A Look at Hunting Versus Other Activities - Hunting is not dangerous. Here are common activities with greater risks...

huntingleases.basecampleasing.com

The Dangers of Dirt Biking and Off-Roading Reported

The thrill of the open trail and the rush of adrenaline draw countless riders of dirt bikes and all-terrain vehicles (ATVs) to Kern County's rural and

www.chainlaw.com

Well, i guess it depends on how you define hunting and recreation

Guns are unique in that their primary use is hunting other people.

Also, the existence of golf clubs and dirt bikes in the home doesn't increase your risk of dying from those things.

Its like owning a cobra. Sure, you may be highly trained and you enjoy looking at a cobra through the glass...but owning one certainly puts everyone in that house at risk.

Good thing the founders didn't add a right to bear cobras.. otherwise we would be dealing with that nonsense too

 

[DocMcCoy]

I can walk in a gun shop tomorrow and in a relatively short amount of time, walk out with a gun. No license needed, no training required, no questions asked. The only requirement is a federal background check - If that's the high bar you are referring to, it's an awfully low bar to gun ownership.

Disagree. If you walk into a gun store, you provide a photo ID, you are 18 (or 21), you aren’t a prohibited person, and you pass a background check at a bare minimum. For what other rights do you do the same?

 

[UscGhost]

Disagree. If you walk into a gun store, you provide a photo ID, you are 18 (or 21), you aren’t a prohibited person, and you pass a background check at a bare minimum. For what other rights do you do the same?

You can buy a gun in a private sale with none of those requirements

What other rights kill 50k people per year and injure countless more

 

[DocMcCoy]

I wasn't being serious about right wing extremism and gun use, btw. The article pertains to blast waves created with indoor gun range use. The writer is a gun owner.

"The data showed that smaller-caliber guns can pose a danger pretty quickly, and that large-caliber civilian rifles delivered a blast wave that exceeds what the military says is safe for the brain. Indoor ranges, designed to make shooting safe, can worsen blast exposure, they discovered.

And to show what happens when you fire a large-caliber rifle, he hung a sheet of silk chiffon fabric alongside the prone body of the shooter. (“I spent way too much time in fabric shops in the garment district looking for that,” he said.) Seen in real time, nothing really happens. When he slowed the film, though, the illustration tells a whole story: A powerful wave runs through the fabric when the firing pin hits the cartridge, all but enveloping the shooter’s skull in 7.6 pounds per square inch of concussive pressure.

How harmful are those concussive waves on the body? Scientists have yet to answer that clearly, though the military considers some of them unsafe. A recently retired Army blast safety researcher told Dave that repeated blast exposures, however small, may cause damage. “Stretch a rubber band a hundred times and it bounces back, but there are microtears forming,” he said. “The 101st time, it breaks.”"

Target Shooting Could Be Causing Brain Injuries. We Measured the Danger.

The Times tested the blast waves of several popular civilian guns at an indoor range and found that repeated firing could add up to potentially harmful exposure.

www.nytimes.com

Yet we ban suppressors, for “reasons”.

 

[DocMcCoy]

You can buy a gun in a private sale with none of those requirements

What other rights kill 50k people per year and injure countless more

Legally it’s the same bar sans the background check. And I think those should be mandatory in all sales.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Also, the existence of golf clubs and dirt bikes in the home doesn't increase your risk of dying from those things.

Most certainly does, as do cars, and motorcycles, and table saws, and steak knives, etc. it’s been discussed already.

 

[UscGhost]

Most certainly does, as do cars, and motorcycles, and table saws, and steak knives, etc. it’s been discussed already.

And guns kill more people than all of those combined

 

[PpfSuxTube]

I've used mass transit almost exclusively in the last 5 major cities I went to, Tokyo, San Francisco 3 times over the last year, NYC, and BWI to DC Maryland and back with the MARC train and metro.

Despite the utility of a car, it's a wonder people get behind the wheel without any thought. That to me is irrational.

Well that's it then. The case for guns is closed

 

[DocMcCoy]

This is a good post, thank you. I wonder what your thoughts are on violent arrests on American citizens by ICE/Border Patrol in Evanston? Are we only seeing the after effects of a non peaceful assembly? Would ICE/Border Patrol question their tactics if these peaceful assemblers exercising their first amendment rights were armed and made it known they’re armed? Curious as to your thoughts. Surely you can guess I believe ICE and Border Patrol have crossed the line in an extreme manner.

I’m inclined to agree there certainly appear to be instances where Feds are crossing the line. And without saying one justifies the other, some of these are just the after effects of non peaceful protests as well.

I personally think something akin to the deacons for defense and justice, an ORGANIZED, DISCIPLINED, ARMED, resistance, could be a good fit for an appropriate use of 2A.

With a few caveats.

They would have to somehow re-gain control of the narrative. Right now I don’t think the anti-ICE sentiment is seen as peaceful. All opposition is framed in violence, and the media isn’t helping. Take away messaging in the wake of some of the bigger protests like Boston and LA, was broken windows and stuff on fire. People are turned off to the assault of ICE agents enforcing illegal immigration policies that were largely supported. But, the polling is flipping so maybe that is good news.

Large liberal cities are soft targets for tyranny (and ironically gun violence) BECAUSE of strict gun laws. What would make it so difficult to amass armed protestors is that you can’t functionally exercise 2A in cities like LA, Boston, and Chicago. Open carry bans, lack of stand your ground laws, low gun ownership, preclusion of many types of common use firearms, etc., inherently making these things crimes. It would logically make sense that organizing a group of armed protestors would be much more feasible if they are legally allowed to carry guns at the protests.

I certainly think a couple hundred organized civilians with AR15s, backed by favorable 2A jurisdictions, standing in armed solidarity and vigilance outside the local Home Depot’s, would have an effect on the way ICE is handling policing of migrants in those areas, without firing a shot. It isn’t a coincidence there aren’t a lot of high profile federal operations in these areas for many reasons, this included.

If I had any doubts as to whether ICE has become an agent of tyranny... Tell me, is this woman justified in using 2A to check government tyranny?

About as good as case as I’ve seen so far. Maybe even legally justified in the right context. It’s Chicago, which isn’t an accident. Lot less risk of running into a bunch of armed citizens for ICE to have to deal with. It’s easier to get away with tyranny when you don’t have to worry about those things.

 

[Southpaw]

I’m inclined to agree there certainly appear to be instances where Feds are crossing the line. And without saying one justifies the other, some of these are just the after effects of non peaceful protests as well.

I personally think something akin to the deacons for defense and justice, an ORGANIZED, DISCIPLINED, ARMED, resistance, could be a good fit for an appropriate use of 2A.

With a few caveats.

They would have to somehow re-gain control of the narrative. Right now I don’t think the anti-ICE sentiment is seen as peaceful. All opposition is framed in violence, and the media isn’t helping. Take away messaging in the wake of some of the bigger protests like Boston and LA, was broken windows and stuff on fire. People are turned off to the assault of ICE agents enforcing illegal immigration policies that were largely supported. But, the polling is flipping so maybe that is good news.

Large liberal cities are soft targets for tyranny (and ironically gun violence) BECAUSE of strict gun laws. What would make it so difficult to amass armed protestors is that you can’t functionally exercise 2A in cities like LA, Boston, and Chicago. Open carry bans, lack of stand your ground laws, low gun ownership, preclusion of many types of common use firearms, etc., inherently making these things crimes. It would logically make sense that organizing a group of armed protestors would be much more feasible if they are legally allowed to carry guns at the protests.

I certainly think a couple hundred organized civilians with AR15s, backed by favorable 2A jurisdictions, standing in armed solidarity and vigilance outside the local Home Depot’s, would have an effect on the way ICE is handling policing of migrants in those areas, without firing a shot. It isn’t a coincidence there aren’t a lot of high profile federal operations in these areas for many reasons, this included.



About as good as case as I’ve seen so far. Maybe even legally justified in the right context. It’s Chicago, which isn’t an accident. Lot less risk of running into a bunch of armed citizens for ICE to have to deal with. It’s easier to get away with tyranny when you don’t have to worry about those things.

Can’t disagree with a single thing you wrote. Thanks.

 

[rowsdower88]

I’m inclined to agree there certainly appear to be instances where Feds are crossing the line

https://www.reddit.com/r/law/s/tWZD0IgelB

For anyone curious, apparently these clips were cited by the Oregon Dept of Justice as evidence of excessive force used by ICE.

 

[arkgal]

Well, i guess it depends on how you define hunting and recreation

Guns are unique in that their primary use is hunting other people.

Also, the existence of golf clubs and dirt bikes in the home doesn't increase your risk of dying from those things.

Its like owning a cobra. Sure, you may be highly trained and you enjoy looking at a cobra through the glass...but owning one certainly puts everyone in that house at risk.

Good thing the founders didn't add a right to bear cobras.. otherwise we would be dealing with that nonsense too

That's a fair argument. Though I've almost been hit by people on bicycles buzzing by on trails.

 

[arkgal]

Disagree. If you walk into a gun store, you provide a photo ID, you are 18 (or 21), you aren’t a prohibited person, and you pass a background check at a bare minimum. For what other rights do you do the same?

That's a bare minimum. A bar the vast majority of US citizens can meet. It's easier than getting a driver's license, which is also a pretty low bar.

 

[pgg]

You can buy a gun from a private seller without the background check at all

Depends on the state. Many require private sales to be done through a dealer, with background checks.

The full story is more complex. Private interstate sales are illegal at the federal level, and all sales to prohibited persons are illegal. I understand that not everyone cares about nuance.

There are holes in the background check process in some states. Closing those holes could be part of a reasonable compromise.

Speaking of being reasonable, and compromising, can you tell me what gun control you'd be willing to repeal or give up, in exchange for nationwide universal background checks?

 

[pgg]

Yet we ban suppressors, for reasons.

Among the reasons suppressors were included in the 1934 NFA (i.e. taxed to make them prohibitively expensive for poor people) is because hungry people were poaching meals with them.

They've never really been a tool of criminals and assassins.

 

[Southpaw]

https://www.reddit.com/r/law/s/tWZD0IgelB

For anyone curious, apparently these clips were cited by the Oregon Dept of Justice as evidence of excessive force used by ICE.

Absolutely disgusting abuse of power. All Americans should stand against this. The first attack very well may have caused a cervical spine injury/TBI/serious head trauma.

Real tough when 20 armed federal agents put their full force on an unarmed American citizen.

I’d be lawyering up lickety split.

By the way, Orange Snowflake has said ICE/BP haven’t acted harsh enough.

 

[DocMcCoy]

That's a bare minimum. A bar the vast majority of US citizens can meet. It's easier than getting a driver's license, which is also a pretty low bar.

The VAST majority of US citizens should be able to meet the requirements. A drivers license is not a rights enumerated in the constitution.

If we agree that rights are subject to regulation and not absolute, then is it not also true that the 2nd amendment is by far the most regulated?

 

[UscGhost]

The VAST majority of US citizens should be able to meet the requirements. A drivers license is not a rights enumerated in the constitution.

If we agree that rights are subject to regulation and not absolute, then is it not also true that the 2nd amendment is by far the most regulated?

It should be even more regulated. Its the only amendment that kills 50k people per year

 

[DocMcCoy]

It should be even more regulated. Its the only amendment that kills 50k people per year

The 21st kills quite a few more. That was passed knowing full well the dangers of alcohol, and after a total ban by the 18th proved totally ineffective 🤔.

Where is your push to re—appeal and get rid of the 21st amendment? Consuming alcohol has no measurable benefit to society and costs many lives, right?

 

[UscGhost]

The 21st kills quite a few more. That was passed knowing full well the dangers of alcohol, and after a total ban by the 18th proved totally ineffective 🤔.

Where is your push to re—appeal and get rid of the 21st amendment? Consuming alcohol has no measurable benefit to society and costs many lives, right?

Because alcohol isn't as much of a problem, and it generates more economic and tax revenue. More people drink than own guns, and cause less deaths

DUIs are a problem..so I wouldn't mind the eventual use of devices to detect impaired drivers in some fashion. Outside of DUIs, alcohol isnt generally involved in homicides to the extent that guns are. If someone wants to drink themselves into liver failure, so be it..guns are more problematic

A ban on alcohol sales is much more difficult to enforce. Its pretty easy to make your own liquor. Difficult to make your own guns and ammo

Alcohol itself isnt becoming more dangerous (drinking is down significantly) vs guns (becoming more lethal)

 

[DocMcCoy]

Ooof, pretty weak my friend.

Because alcohol isn't as much of a problem, and it generates more economic and tax revenue. More people drink than own guns, and cause less deaths

That isn’t correct. Look at alcohol related deaths per year again… and tell me it isn’t a problem, more so than guns.

Guns are a multiple billion dollar industry as well… you don’t mind killing that industry?

A ban on alcohol sales is much more difficult to enforce. Its pretty easy to make your own liquor. Difficult to make your own guns and ammo

You sure about that? No actuality a repeal of the 2nd amendment would end up much like the 18th, for all the same reasons.

Wow. You don’t mind 100 thousand people drinking themselves to death per year, not to mention the strain on healthcare, but 20k suicides is where you draw the line, lol. Got it.

Not your best argument. 100k+ deaths per year and just a shrug. Ok.

How about smoking/vaping? 500K deaths a year? Surely we should universally ban it right? Hell there isn’t even an amendment protecting it. Talk about low hanging fruit.

Why don’t the alcohol and tobacco deaths, which are an order of magnitude greater, bother you like the guns?

You put the F in ATF.

 

[UscGhost]

Ooof, pretty weak my friend.





That isn’t correct. Look at alcohol related deaths per year again… and tell me it isn’t a problem, more so than guns.

Guns are a multiple billion dollar industry as well… you don’t mind killing that industry?




You sure about that? No actuality a repeal of the 2nd amendment would end up much like the 18th, for all the same reasons.

Wow. You don’t mind 100 thousand people drinking themselves to death per year, not to mention the strain on healthcare, but 20k suicides is where you draw the line, lol. Got it.

Not your best argument. 100k+ deaths per year and just a shrug. Ok.

How about smoking/vaping? 500K deaths a year? Surely we should universally ban it right? Hell there isn’t even an amendment protecting it. Talk about low hanging fruit.

Why don’t the alcohol and tobacco deaths, which are an order of magnitude greater, bother you like the guns?

You put the F in ATF.

We have an epidemic of people killing each other cigarettes and beer bottles do we?

Leading cause of death in minors is what again? Oh yea, guns.

Yes, making guns and ammo at home is immensely more difficult than Homebrewing

If a gun took 20+ years to kill someone from cirrhosis...i would worry less about it

I do however, think medical insurance and the government shouldn't cover cigarette and alcohol related diseases. Or tax it heavily to pay for the costs to society..that would effectively get rid of most of its consumption over the next couple generations.

 

[pgg]

Because alcohol isn't as much of a problem,

Hooo boy

and it generates more economic and tax revenue. More people drink than own guns, and cause less deaths

Alcohol causes faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more morbidity and mortality than guns do.

From the CDC: 178,000 per year

Compared to guns: under 50,000 total, a majority of which were suicides.

But honestly, those are rookie numbers! Let's get serious and add tobacco! 480,000 deaths per year! Something else that provides zero "benefit to society" and causes absolutely massive amounts of death and illness. There's no enumerated right to smoke in the Bill of Rights.

DUIs are a problem..so I wouldn't mind the eventual use of devices to detect impaired drivers in some fashion.

Interesting. What sort of devices? How intrusive a device would you tolerate in your own life?

Outside of DUIs, alcohol isnt generally involved in homicides to the extent that guns are. If someone wants to drink themselves into liver failure, so be it..guns are more problematic

It's quite interesting that you've dismissed alcohol's self-inflicted harm as irrelevant.

Can I assume that you're now going to dismiss the self-inflicted harm of suicide by gun as irrelevant to the gun control discussion? Right there, we can dismiss the majority of "gun-related deaths" as irrelevant.

Right?

A ban on alcohol sales is much more difficult to enforce. Its pretty easy to make your own liquor. Difficult to make your own guns and ammo

Not a bit. 3D printers have gotten quite good. And cheap.

Inexpensive hobby CNC mills can make metal receivers and other parts. Some simple designs can get most of the way there with a drill press (and patience).

By some reports, homemade guns (i.e., "ghost guns") now account for a large percentage of guns used in crimes - two estimates Google just found for me were 10% in Boston and 30% in California. Obviously if nearly 1/3 of criminals in the state of California are using them, they can't be that hard to make.

It's quite easy to make ammunition. A cheap $300 starter kit with a reloading press will get it done. I've personally made in excess of 100,000 rounds of ammo in my own home over the last decade or so.

I have a more capable CNC mill on the higher end of what hobbyists typically own. I've made AR15 lower receivers with it, starting with nothing more than a brick of solid 7075 aluminum.

Alcohol itself isnt becoming more dangerous (drinking is down significantly) vs guns (becoming more lethal)

You're right, guns have a very long way to go to catch up to alcohol and tobacco.



For the record, I oppose all forms of prohibition of substances people use to get drunk, high, or feel good. I favor legalization of ALL currently illegal drugs, because the societal harms of prohibition are so high, and I value personal freedom more than I value some foggy societal interest in dubiously-useful attempts to prevent people from hurting themselves.

What I think we should do to reduce injury, illness, and death from self-inflicted behaviors could fill another thread, but none of it depends on prohibition / making stuff illegal.

 

[pgg]

I do however, think medical insurance and the government shouldn't cover cigarette and alcohol related diseases. Or tax it heavily to pay for the costs to society..that would effectively get rid of most of its consumption over the next couple generations.

It's an awfully slippery slope to start denying health care to people with self-inflicted disease.

Unless you're a kid, just about every injury or health problem is related to poor choices. Alcohol. Tobacco. Driving too fast. Not wearing a seat belt. Not wearing proper PPE 100% of the time at work. Falling off a ladder that wasn't being used properly. Eating unhealthy food. Not getting enough sleep.

Unless you're a kid with cancer, if you're in a hospital it's because you, someone responsible for you, or someone who didn't like you, made poor choices. That's life.

Maybe we could just agree to take care of all sick and injured people, without regard to how they got sick or injured or whose fault it was.

 

[UscGhost]

Hooo boy



Alcohol causes faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more morbidity and mortality than guns do.

From the CDC: 178,000 per year

Compared to guns: under 50,000 total, a majority of which were suicides.

But honestly, those are rookie numbers! Let's get serious and add tobacco! 480,000 deaths per year! Something else that provides zero "benefit to society" and causes absolutely massive amounts of death and illness. There's no enumerated right to smoke in the Bill of Rights.



Interesting. What sort of devices? How intrusive a device would you tolerate in your own life?



It's quite interesting that you've dismissed alcohol's self-inflicted harm as irrelevant.

Can I assume that you're now going to dismiss the self-inflicted harm of suicide by gun as irrelevant to the gun control discussion? Right there, we can dismiss the majority of "gun-related deaths" as irrelevant.

Right?



Not a bit. 3D printers have gotten quite good. And cheap.

Inexpensive hobby CNC mills can make metal receivers and other parts. Some simple designs can get most of the way there with a drill press (and patience).

By some reports, homemade guns (i.e., "ghost guns") now account for a large percentage of guns used in crimes - two estimates Google just found for me were 10% in Boston and 30% in California. Obviously if nearly 1/3 of criminals in the state of California are using them, they can't be that hard to make.

It's quite easy to make ammunition. A cheap $300 starter kit with a reloading press will get it done. I've personally made in excess of 100,000 rounds of ammo in my own home over the last decade or so.

I have a more capable CNC mill on the higher end of what hobbyists typically own. I've made AR15 lower receivers with it, starting with nothing more than a brick of solid 7075 aluminum.



You're right, guns have a very long way to go to catch up to alcohol and tobacco.



For the record, I oppose all forms of prohibition of substances people use to get drunk, high, or feel good. I favor legalization of ALL currently illegal drugs, because the societal harms of prohibition are so high, and I value personal freedom more than I value some foggy societal interest in dubiously-useful attempts to prevent people from hurting themselves.

What I think we should do to reduce injury, illness, and death from self-inflicted behaviors could fill another thread, but none of it depends on prohibition / making stuff illegal.

As i said, if someone wants to make a concerted effort over 20+ years to drink themselves to death, thats not my concern in terms of strict regulations. They have ample opportunity to change their behavior..they can go to rehab. As a society, we should discourage it through taxes, etc, but its a personal choice

Gun suicide is absolutely a problem, as it only takes a brief moment of despair or anger...and its over.

Ghost guns are different than 3d printed ones. They are plastic, unreliable , less accurate, and kore dangerous to use. Most ghost guns are made from gun parts ordered separately and assembled.

I can brew alcohol at home with $15 in supplies from the grocery store. Little bit different than running a cnc mill out of your barn lol. Very few have the skill to do that, let alone the space, materials and desire. And goodluck keeping the feds from raiding an illegal home gun shop if that was a priority. Otherwise, you would expect to see just as many gun crimes in countries that have much stricter gun laws, after all, those criminals can just make their own guns there too right?

And for the record, i never said we have to make guns illegal. So i wouldn't make cigs or alcohol illegal either.

Problem is, the maga gun nuts just want to flood the streets with unlimited guns

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Why are the pro gun guys trying to make this topic about alcohol? You can start a new thread about that

 

[DocMcCoy]

Why are the pro gun guys trying to make this topic about alcohol? You can start a new thread about that

Just exposing your upside down and backwards thinking. Carry on bud!

 

[UscGhost]

Why are the pro gun guys trying to make this topic about alcohol? You can start a new thread about that

Because they are as addicted to their guns as alcoholics are to to their next drink

 

[DocMcCoy]

We have an epidemic of people killing each other cigarettes and beer bottles do we?

Yes we have an epidemic of people dying from alcohol, tobacco, and drugs that is far greater than the gun violence epidemic. The stats don’t lie.

Leading cause of death in minors is what again? Oh yea, guns.

Pivot and deflect. Pivot and deflect.

Yes, making guns and ammo at home is immensely more difficult than Homebrewing

Man sometimes you just have to admit you don’t know what you are talking about. My home brews suck, my home built guns all work just fine.

FGC-9 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Myanmar Rebels Rely on 3D Printed Guns to Fight Military Junta - 3DPrint.com | Additive Manufacturing Business

When a German-Kurdish gun designer posted his designs for a semi-automatic pistol on DEFCAD, did he realize that his FGC-9 gun design would wind up being printed in huge numbers...

3dprint.com

If a gun took 20+ years to kill someone from cirrhosis...i would worry less about it

I can’t even. More than 10 times as many deaths don’t bother you because they kill more slowly than guns?

Risk of misuse, public safety, personal freedom arguments are the same in these cases. There is no moral coherence in what you are saying. It’s merely tribal alliance to irrational left wing ideology.

Ghost guns are different than 3d printed ones. They are plastic, unreliable , less accurate, and kore dangerous to use. Most ghost guns are made from gun parts ordered separately and assembled.

You sound like a liberal trying to explain what an assault rifle is. Just stop.

And for the record, i never said we have to make guns illegal. So i wouldn't make cigs or alcohol illegal either.

Uh huh. Motte and Bailey. Review your arguments over the thread and tell me what reasonable conclusion one would make regarding your stance on guns. You would make a great politician for your party.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Because they are as addicted to their guns as alcoholics are to to their next drink

TL;DR

Alcohol kills far more people every year than firearms, yet the left isn’t screaming for prohibition or common sense alcohol laws. That’s not addiction, it’s pointing out selective outrage.

It’s about ideological consistency. If saving lives is the goal (which is the overarching claim for needing to limit 2A) the same logic has apply to every cause of preventable death, not just the politically convenient ones, or you just sound like a tool.

 

[UscGhost]

Yes we have an epidemic of people dying from alcohol, tobacco, and drugs that is far greater than the gun violence epidemic. The stats don’t lie.



Pivot and deflect. Pivot and deflect.



Man sometimes you just have to admit you don’t know what you are talking about. My home brews suck, my home built guns all work just fine.

FGC-9 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Myanmar Rebels Rely on 3D Printed Guns to Fight Military Junta - 3DPrint.com | Additive Manufacturing Business

When a German-Kurdish gun designer posted his designs for a semi-automatic pistol on DEFCAD, did he realize that his FGC-9 gun design would wind up being printed in huge numbers...

3dprint.com

I can’t even. More than 10 times as many deaths don’t bother you because they kill more slowly than guns?

Risk of misuse, public safety, personal freedom arguments are the same in these cases. There is no moral coherence in what you are saying. It’s merely tribal alliance to irrational left wing ideology.



You sound like a liberal trying to explain what an assault rifle is. Just stop.



Uh huh. Motte and Bailey. Review your arguments over the thread and tell me what reasonable conclusion one would make regarding your stance on guns. You would make a great politician for your party.

As usual, off on pretty much everything you said.

The weapon is a mix of fabricated 3D printed parts, easily manufactured metal pressure-bearing parts, and readily available springs, screws, nuts and bolts. The total cost of production, assuming the user already owns a 3D printer, is less than US$500.[5][6]

Yup sounds just as easy as buying some sugar, yeast, a container and some tubes. Pretty sure humans have been doing it for thousands of years

Not sure how guns being the leading cause of death in minors is a deflect. How come alcohol and cigs arent since you seem them as greater threats apparently?

See many homicides using cigs and beer bottles do we?

Mass killings with cigs and beer?

Lots of violent robberies, assaults with beers and cigs?

Walk down the street at night and afraid someone will hit you with a pack of Virginia slims?

 

[DocMcCoy]

As usual, off on pretty much everything you said.

Nope pretty spot on. You opened this can of worms now you are drowning in it.

The weapon is a mix of fabricated 3D printed parts, easily manufactured metal pressure-bearing parts, and readily available springs, screws, nuts and bolts. The total cost of production, assuming the user already owns a 3D printer, is less than US$500.[5][6]

Easily and cheaply built requiring little to no experience.

But way to miss the forest for the trees.

They are currently being manufactured in third world counties to resist tyrannical regimes.

Yup sounds just as easy as buying some sugar, yeast, a container and some tubes. Pretty sure humans have been doing it for thousands of years

10 minutes on the intent and a trip to your local hardware store. The guns and the homebrew.

Not sure how guns being the leading cause of death in minors is a deflect. How come alcohol and cigs arent since you seem them as greater threats apparently?

See many homicides using cigs and beer bottles do we?

Mass killings with cigs and beer?

Lots of violent robberies, assaults with beers and cigs?

Walk down the street at night and afraid someone will hit you with a pack of Virginia slims?

Not me, the stats. You have to explain to me how 50,000 deaths is the bigger threat than 500,000, apparently.

Only the homicides matter now? Ok we can move the goal posts to give you a shot I guess. You could use a win right now. But, drug and alcohol related traffic fatalities trump gun violence deaths in that regard too, sorry.

Mass shootings. What percent of gun violence deaths are these again? Less than 1%?

Remind me again, how more laws and restrictions on law abiding gun owners going to help those robbery and assault numbers?

 

[UscGhost]

Nope pretty spot on. You opened this can of worms now you are drowning in it.




Easily and cheaply built requiring little to no experience.

But way to miss the forest for the trees.

They are currently being manufactured in third world counties to resist tyrannical regimes.



10 minutes on the intent and a trip to your local hardware store. The guns and the homebrew.




Not me, the stats. You have to explain to me how 50,000 deaths is the bigger threat than 500,000, apparently.

Only the homicides matter now? Ok we can move the goal posts to give you a shot I guess. You could use a win right now. But, drug and alcohol related traffic fatalities trump gun violence deaths in that regard too, sorry.

Mass shootings. What percent of gun violence deaths are these again? Less than 1%?

Remind me again, how more laws and restrictions on law abiding gun owners going to help those robbery and assault numbers?

Lol.

Well, i am sure next you will be saying that we shouldn't have any gun controls because we dont control sugar intake either. Millions die from diabetes and CAD after all. So why control guns when sugar kills more people right?

Heck, all these kids dying from gun violence actually reduces the number of deaths from CAD and diabetes...they dont even live that long!

In your mind, guns would thus actually reduce the numbers of deaths from these other causes. Genius! Probably should just give them a gun at birth. Keep em safe from alcoholism and cigs.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Well, i am sure next you will be saying that we shouldn't have any gun controls because we dont control sugar intake either. Millions die from diabetes and CAD after all. So why control guns when sugar kills more people right?

Why would I advocate for any such thing? Surely isn’t consistent with anything I’ve posted thus far. But thanks for more points. Why is your outrage selectively focused on guns with the plethora of examples now of things that are far more deadlier?

The argument has been centered around gun deaths as why we need to further restrict 2A. Without even touching on the reasons for 2A, gun deaths pale in comparison to other preventable causes. You have yet to adequately defend why the left is fixated on the guns. A billion dollar industry with strong lobbyists, a protection under the constitution, a ubiquitous presence, strong historical ties, and 100 million + proponents. Seems like there is readily available low hanging fruit to go after besides the guns. Not to mention, the lefts “common sense” plan which does very little to actually address the deaths.

Because it isn’t nearly as much about safety as it is about control.

In your mind, guns would thus actually reduce the numbers of deaths from these other causes. Genius! Probably should just give them a gun at birth. Keep em safe from alcoholism and cigs.

Three logical fallacies in one statement. That has to be some kind of record.

 

[UscGhost]

Why would I advocate for any such thing? Surely isn’t consistent with anything I’ve posted thus far. But thanks for more points. Why is your outrage selectively focused on guns with the plethora of examples now of things that are far more deadlier?

The argument has been centered around gun deaths as why we need to further restrict 2A. Without even touching on the reasons for 2A, gun deaths pale in comparison to other preventable causes. You have yet to adequately defend why the left is fixated on the guns. A billion dollar industry with strong lobbyists, a protection under the constitution, a ubiquitous presence, strong historical ties, and 100 million + proponents. Seems like there is readily available low hanging fruit to go after besides the guns. Not to mention, the lefts “common sense” plan which does very little to actually address the deaths.

Because it isn’t nearly as much about safety as it is about control.





Three logical fallacies in one statement. That has to be some kind of record.

Just putting your logic into words...not surprised it doesn't make sense

But hey, i am sure all the political violence that you (and the rest of maga) have been so concerned about lately must be due to alcohol and cigs. Not the guns of course

I guess Trump was lucky the shooter didnt have a pack of cigs and a Bud light on him instead...no chance of survival

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Just exposing your upside down and backwards thinking. Carry on bud!

No you are deflecting

 

[pgg]

No you are deflecting

Is that ... a "I know you are but what am I" rebuttal?

🙂

 

[pgg]

As usual, off on pretty much everything you said.

The weapon is a mix of fabricated 3D printed parts, easily manufactured metal pressure-bearing parts, and readily available springs, screws, nuts and bolts. The total cost of production, assuming the user already owns a 3D printer, is less than US$500.[5][6]

Yup sounds just as easy as buying some sugar, yeast, a container and some tubes. Pretty sure humans have been doing it for thousands of years

I think you are underestimating how much money, time, and effort a lot of homebrewers are investing. 🙂

It's a continuum, of course. On one end you've got prison inmates fermenting orange juice in toilets, and the other end you've got middle aged guys with lots of disposable income who are on the level of Walter White and his meth cooking.


Functional homemade guns are pretty easy to make. I'm going to guess you've never made a gun at home. Yet you've got two people in this thread who have done it, telling you how easy it is ... and you're still arguing about how hard it is. I think you don't understand because you're emotionally invested in not understanding.


It appears part of your argument is that "ease of acquisition" is a bad/impractical reason to ban alcohol. (I agree.) The same argument easily applies to guns.

 

[pgg]

@UscGhost you never responded to my post asking you specific questions about your ideas for gun control.

I'll repost it here. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

----

Thanks for responding -

Background checks

No quarrel there, provided they are efficient and low cost.

Red flag laws

Devil's in the details there. So long as there's due process, penalties for knowingly false reports, and prompt return of confiscated firearms if the concerns are not proven, I could agree with some forms of red flag laws.

Straw purchases

Straw purchases are already illegal. What do you mean here?

trade shows

You mean universal background checks?

Limits on bump stocks,

What kind of limits? That's vague.

ghost guns,

What kind of limits?

ammunition and high powered weapons stockpiling

What kind of limits?

How do you define "high powered"?

What is a "stockpile" and how is a person who owns 10 or 50 guns more dangerous than a person with 2 guns?

Lots of possible options.

If the goal is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals...then do that

It's already illegal for felons to own guns. What exactly are you proposing we change?

 

[UscGhost]

I think you are underestimating how much money, time, and effort a lot of homebrewers are investing. 🙂

It's a continuum, of course. On one end you've got prison inmates fermenting orange juice in toilets, and the other end you've got middle aged guys with lots of disposable income who are on the level of Walter White and his meth cooking.


Functional homemade guns are pretty easy to make. I'm going to guess you've never made a gun at home. Yet you've got two people in this thread who have done it, telling you how easy it is ... and you're still arguing about how hard it is. I think you don't understand because you're emotionally invested in not understanding.


It appears part of your argument is that "ease of acquisition" is a bad/impractical reason to ban alcohol. (I agree.) The same argument easily applies to guns.

Yes two people who happen to have machining tools at home, knowledge of how to make them. Because you can pick those up at a local grocery store eh?

Most ghost guns are made from kits of premade parts.

16” 300 Blackout AR-15 Rifle Build Kit

Shooting steel case ammunition through our products voids ALL warranties!!! Legal Restriction: Durkin Tactical is currently using a third party vendor to verify the legality of our parts.

www.durkintactical.com

Hardly the same as making it from scratch

Homebrew is basic. Making it taste good is an optional challenge. You can buy a kit for $50 on amazon. Or just use regular sugar, yeast, etc

Or just do it like they have for thousands of years.

 

[UscGhost]

@UscGhost you never responded to my post asking you specific questions about your ideas for gun control.

I'll repost it here. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

----

Thanks for responding -


No quarrel there, provided they are efficient and low cost.


Devil's in the details there. So long as there's due process, penalties for knowingly false reports, and prompt return of confiscated firearms if the concerns are not proven, I could agree with some forms of red flag laws.


Straw purchases are already illegal. What do you mean here?


You mean universal background checks?


What kind of limits? That's vague.


What kind of limits?


What kind of limits?

How do you define "high powered"?

What is a "stockpile" and how is a person who owns 10 or 50 guns more dangerous than a person with 2 guns?


It's already illegal for felons to own guns. What exactly are you proposing we change?

The exact details are beyond this level of discussion.

Its like talking about speed limits. When gun nuts want no limits at all.... discussing whether the limit should be 65 or 75 is getting ahead of ourselves

 

[PpfSuxTube]

Is that ... a "I know you are but what am I" rebuttal?

🙂

No one has yet explained why guns/2a arent the reason the US has by far the highest gun murder/suicide rate in the developed world. Its probably the booze. And suicides dont matter apparently. But at the tyrants are at bay.

Man those tyrants

 

[DocMcCoy]

Yes two people who happen to have machining tools at home, knowledge of how to make them. Because you can pick those up at a local grocery store eh?

Most ghost guns are made from kits of premade parts.

16” 300 Blackout AR-15 Rifle Build Kit

Shooting steel case ammunition through our products voids ALL warranties!!! Legal Restriction: Durkin Tactical is currently using a third party vendor to verify the legality of our parts.

www.durkintactical.com

Hardly the same as making it from scratch

Homebrew is basic. Making it taste good is an optional challenge. You can buy a kit for $50 on amazon. Or just use regular sugar, yeast, etc

Or just do it like they have for thousands of years.

Again, it’s not hard. 3rd world countries are building them to fight tyrannical regimes (because the regimes took their guns away).

Yes a fully functional (and highly reliable) ar 15 can be built with a parts kit and a lower receiver (the actual firearm). Let’s say I agree and say the practice should be banned. How are you going to regulate springs, steel and plastic? Functionally what does that look like?

You realize there are hundreds of 3D printing gun files that require no or very few readily available metal parts? You going to ban the internet too? You going to squash the 1st amendment in your crusade against the 2nd, chasing those deaths that pale in comparison to other preventable causes?

 

[DocMcCoy]

But hey, i am sure all the political violence that you (and the rest of maga) have been so concerned about lately must be due to alcohol and cigs. Not the guns of course

The stats are the stats man. Make your selective outrage make sense?

No one has yet explained why guns/2a arent the reason the US has by far the highest gun murder/suicide rate in the developed world. Its probably the booze. And suicides dont matter apparently. But at the tyrants are at bay.

We have the most guns and the most diverse population. Nobody is denying that. Nobody here is saying we can’t do anything about it. We differ SIGNIFICANTLY in what and how it should be done.

We also have the highest rate of drug overdose deaths of developed countries.

One of the highest rates of incarcerated citizens.

Highest obesity rate of high income countries.

One of the highest suicide rates of high income countries.

Heart disease is our leading cause of death.

Highest healthcare costs.

Highest consumer debt.

Prescription drug use.

Energy waste.

All these things matter, in many ways much more than the guns. Why do guns get all of your attention?

Despite all of this we are still largely the envy of the world. (Largest total immigrant population in the world).