Opiates, Benzos, and PCPs

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Dansk2011

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I unfortunately joined a practice in Colorado that sees primarily Medicaid (was lied to in every regards about the practice including payer mix on top of many other issues and am leaving in about 2 months). It seems like almost every patient that is referred to me is on opiates, benzos, and often times a stimulant prescribed by the primary cares and they are expecting me to take over prescribing opiates. You would think that in the current landscape of medicine physicians and mid-levels (most primary care mid-levels I encounter are clueless and a liability to their patients and themselves) would know better than doling out meds like candy, especially to a population so at risk for abuse and addiction. Is this an issue everywhere or just in the state that I am currently practicing? I rarely saw this where I trained for fellowship.
 
I unfortunately joined a practice in Colorado that sees primarily Medicaid (was lied to in every regards about the practice including payer mix on top of many other issues and am leaving in about 2 months). It seems like almost every patient that is referred to me is on opiates, benzos, and often times a stimulant prescribed by the primary cares and they are expecting me to take over prescribing opiates. You would think that in the current landscape of medicine physicians and mid-levels (most primary care mid-levels I encounter are clueless and a liability to their patients and themselves) would know better than doling out meds like candy, especially to a population so at risk for abuse and addiction. Is this an issue everywhere or just in the state that I am currently practicing? I rarely saw this where I trained for fellowship.
If you are leaving just tell everyone no. Just say no!
 
It's all by me too. The pain guys write opiates, but alone with multi-modal therapy. PCPs write Benzo, opiates, Soma, THC in conjunction and when they don't get better or he/she gets cold feet, they dump. Also I routinely see 3 month scripts for Xanax 1mg TID (270 tabs) with a refill along with Tramadol 2tabs QID for 3 months (720 tabs) with a refill. Welcome to the real world.
 
I give the patients a letter to give to their other prescriber that I am happy to prescribe appropriate meds once they have been weaned off the benzos.

I got referred a patient who was on Valium, xanax, soma and ambien. How she managed to walk without face-planting is beyond me.
 
I give the patients a letter to give to their other prescriber that I am happy to prescribe appropriate meds once they have been weaned off the benzos.

I got referred a patient who was on Valium, xanax, soma and ambien. How she managed to walk without face-planting is beyond me.

could be a local distributor...
 
I also see this combos almost daily in my new referrals. PCP usually says something like "I can't write opioids anymore, but I will continue bzd." Even on marketing meetings I get asked if we will Rx to people on benzos and I usually get an annoyed look when I say no. It was way worse in FL though, but I also had a very high medicaid population. I still never get why they think they can't do any opiod management, but will write Benzo to everyone with anxiety without needing to see psych.
 
I also see this combos almost daily in my new referrals. PCP usually says something like "I can't write opioids anymore, but I will continue bzd." Even on marketing meetings I get asked if we will Rx to people on benzos and I usually get an annoyed look when I say no. It was way worse in FL though, but I also had a very high medicaid population. I still never get why they think they can't do any opiod management, but will write Benzo to everyone with anxiety without needing to see psych.

benzos don't alert the feds (YET!), opiates do.
 
I honestly feel that the primary cares are overwhelming responsible for continuing to fuel the epidemic (both opiates and benzos) and obviously had a big part to play in our current crisis. My wife is a psychiatrist and they have the same issue with benzos and PCPs. From what I understand, psychiatrists very rarely write for chronic benzos anymore except for extreme cases. How can the pcps justify it as they have such little training in pain and/or psychiatry?
 
I honestly feel that the primary cares are overwhelming responsible for continuing to fuel the epidemic (both opiates and benzos) and obviously had a big part to play in our current crisis. My wife is a psychiatrist and they have the same issue with benzos and PCPs. From what I understand, psychiatrists very rarely write for chronic benzos anymore except for extreme cases. How can the pcps justify it as they have such little training in pain and/or psychiatry?

Patient satisfaction scores.


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Chronic Benzo and opioids are sure way to generate steady revenue
 
I get notifications via email all the time from the state of Georgia about patients with concomitant BZD and opiates.
 
Here as well, I spend a lot of time going over the warnings and recommendations. I give patients a chance to wean, they can choose one or the other. They likely all despise me and I am at peace with that.
How are you all doing with THC in CO? It was just made legal "medically" here. Attracts much of the Medicaid population.
 
Here as well, I spend a lot of time going over the warnings and recommendations. I give patients a chance to wean, they can choose one or the other. They likely all despise me and I am at peace with that.
How are you all doing with THC in CO? It was just made legal "medically" here. Attracts much of the Medicaid population.
The THC is a whole other issue. About 99.9% of the Medicaid population tests positive for it here in CO. I’d prefer to not give them meds but the practice I joined flipped their policy and now allows prescribing to patients who test positive. Another reason I’m leaving. I think it’s a big liability. I’m fine with it being legal and people using it much like alcohol but don’t sit here and tell me it’s for pain when you are also taking Valium 5 mg TID and are also on 200+ MME via the PCP.
 
Polypharm is bad in my area. I finished residency (Family Medicine) in 2012 and have already noticed a substantial improvement since then. All it takes is a few who will write everything and anything (usually older docs) to totally screw up a town. Here, it was several family docs and psychiatrists. 1 went to prison, a few others have retired. The younger family docs are much more strict. My first few years of building my practice were interesting to say the least.

I honestly don't understand the logic. Polypharm makes people LESS stable and MORE likely to be a PITA/demanding to your front office staff. They're also more likely to refer their unstable peers to come and see you. Words you'll never hear from these patients: "yeah doc, things are great, life is good and I'm really just here for my 4 mo f/u. "

Pretty soon, that's all your practice is and then you're really a target for the DEA. Who the hell wants that?
 
It's not just CO. THC is "legal" in many states. FWIW, just because anything is legal doesn't mean you write opiates.
 
We talked about your situation on the phone a week or so ago -- again, it sounds horrible and I hope something(hopefully nearby!) opens up for you.

If you're sure you're leaving, I wouldn't worry about burning referral bridges. In Pain management, literally everything we do is elective so you don't face any license or legal repercussions by saying no. It'll make your life hell for the next little bit as the practice managers won't be happen -- but screw 'em. Perhaps rather than prescribing them controlled substances yourself you can use the encounter to "provide recs" and send them back to the PCP with advice on a rapid taper regimen?
 
DEA is not cool with THC so whatever your state says is irrelevant for your DEA registration survive-ability.

DEA stance varies based on legality of THC in your state. If legal I have seen them on record recommend treating it as you would EtOH
 
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DEA stance varies based on legality of THC in your state. If legal I have seen them on record recommend treating it as you would EtOH
Its ok. Until it is not ok. You want to take that risk? Ask them to put it in writing.
 
It's not just CO. THC is "legal" in many states. FWIW, just because anything is legal doesn't mean you write opiates.
Exactly. Alcoholics don’t get opioids either
 
I give the patients a letter to give to their other prescriber that I am happy to prescribe appropriate meds once they have been weaned off the benzos.

Smart move. The letter is how it’s done. If I see more then 1 controlled substances, I let the PCP know it’s dangerous. (Benzo+opioid = death; stimulants =more pain, OIH, cardiac safety for procedures; and so forth)
I used to take on this craziness and thought I can change the world. Man, have I learned a lot. Because of my background, I would get dumped benzo/opioid combos all the damn time. And the patients would have really severe disease processes, in which I wouldn’t/couldn’t perform interventions. Anyways, since I’m not fresh out, I guess I can be a bit more picker or just more luckier then some pain docs with less options.
 
It’s bad in my area too. Benzos are the go to for insomnia here in the elderly population which drives me nuts. I make them choose either the benzo or opioid. I’m always surprised when they stick with the benzo and their pain is not quite as bad before the ultimatum. Benzodiazepines should be schedule II
 
I get a decent amount of Klonopin TID and Adderall. Not elderly, usually 45 yo M with spondylosis and axial pain.
 
  • Miranda Levy
9 NOVEMBER 2019 • 6:00 AM Telegraph. UK

He listened with sympathy to the story of how I’d discovered my husband wanted to call time on our marriage, and then my distress had plunged me headlong into disabling insomnia. He agreed that I needed a bit of extra help, so ‘upped’ my antidepressant and prescribed me a tranquilliser called clonazepam – part of the benzodiazepine drug family, aka ‘benzos’.

The clonazepam initially bought me some snatched periods of sleep, and a pleasant fuzziness in the hours in between. But this relief didn’t last. At my first follow-up, the consultant increased the prescription. I think he then upped it again over the phone (my memories of that time are a bit blurry). Then I had the knotty problem of needing and wanting more, but also knowing that Benzos Are Bad, and I should probably come off them.

There then followed over five years of dependence, abuse (I hadn’t ever had any problems with alcohol or recreational drugs, and haven’t since) and horrible, horrible withdrawal symptoms when I did decide to come off. I couldn’t sleep, either. After a long struggle, I finally came off the benzos entirely in 2015, and suffered a period of after-effects that included agoraphobia and an inability to read a book or even type. I now believe these were lingering symptoms known as ‘protracted withdrawal’. From around February this year, I gradually started to feel healthy again, and tried to look forward and put my lost decade behind me.

Until two months ago, when a front-page news story caught my eye. ‘At Last, Action To Beat Pills Crisis,’ shouted the headline. It was about the findings of Public Health England, an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care, calling for the Government to help people whose lives have been blighted by prescription drugs including antidepressants, tranquillisers and painkillers. Key recommendations were a helpline, tougher guidelines on prescribing, and acknowledgement that withdrawal from antidepressants can cause health problems.

According to the review, 11.5 million patients in England have received one or more prescriptions in the past 12 months for at least one of a class of five potentially addictive drugs. These are: antidepressants, opioid painkillers, benzodiazepines (tranquillisers such as Valium, which is diazepam), gabapentinoids for neuropathic pain and ‘z-drugs’ for insomnia. And 17 per cent of the adult population were prescribed antidepressants between 2017 and 2018.

This was big news, especially the official acknowledgment of antidepressant withdrawal effects. Suddenly, they came blinking into the sunlight: the ‘middle-class’ prescription addicts who for years had been called attention-seeking by their GPs, with ‘medically unexplained symptoms’. Also vindicated were the sympathetic psychiatrists who’d been seen as outliers with a vendetta against pharmaceutical companies.

I was astonished to realise there were so many women who had suffered in a similar way. And, yes, most of them were women.

‘The main sufferers of prescription-medication withdrawal are white women over the age of 45,’ says Dr David Healy, a professor of psychiatry at Bangor University and author of 20 books including Pharmageddon. For some reason this is not adequately explained in the psychiatric literature.

‘We know how to put people on these drugs, we just don’t know how to get people off them,’ says Healy. ‘The Public Health England statistics hide a serious story. Yes, there are 7.3 million prescriptions a year for antidepressants, but many of these are repeats.’ Twenty years ago, he says, most people went to their GP with a ‘clean slate’. ‘Now many are on something, and it’s often a psychotropic drug they just can’t give up,’ he says. ‘I’m not anti-medication – I think drugs have their place but patients need to know the risks.’

So these ‘discontinuation symptoms’ (as they used to be euphemistically called) are real? ‘Oh yes,’ says Healy. ‘Put it this way, if the factories that make these drugs blew up tomorrow, we’d have a serious problem.’


Rebekah Hock was prescribed the antidepressant venlafaxine CREDIT: SOPHIE HARRIS-TAYLOR
Prescription-pill addiction is one of the biggest health issues of the day, he says. Healy has been warning about the dangers of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) – a class of antidepressant prescribed as a ‘first-line treatment’ – since the early 1990s. That was the time when SSRIs such as Prozac were being marketed as the drugs that made you ‘better than well’.

‘GPs handed SSRIs out willy-nilly,’ he says. ‘They were seen as preferable to Valium, as something that was non-addictive, “I can’t get into trouble taking them.”’

It transpired that people were staying on SSRIs as it was simply too unpleasant to quit. ‘Some have been on antidepressants for decades because when they stop, they feel worse,’ says Dr Healy.

People like Rebekah Hock, 36, a wedding dress designer from Leeds. Rebekah’s doctor put her on venlafaxine after a late miscarriage, followed by a traumatic birth with her son Oskar. ‘I hadn’t had any mental health problems before Oskar was born,’ she says. ‘But when he was three months old, I was still tearful, not sleeping, not able to bond with him. My GP referred me to the Perinatal Clinic at Leeds General Infirmary.’

The psychiatrists there diagnosed Rebekah with ‘postnatal anxiety’ and put her on venlafaxine, a serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor (SNRI), another fairly commonly prescribed type of antidepressant. ‘The only things I remember them saying were that the pills may affect my libido, which was the last thing on my mind at the time, and to talk to my GP if I wanted to stop,’ she says.

Rebekah felt she improved on the drug. ‘My confidence came back. I started socialising and exercising again. But after about 18 months my husband suggested that, given I was doing so well, maybe I should come off it. I went to my GP, who suggested I immediately halve my dose. I followed her advice, and didn’t feel too bad, actually.’ But when Rebekah started cutting back on the remaining half, she realised it was ‘too much’.

‘I walked into my doctor’s surgery, took one look at her, and burst into tears,’ she says. ‘My anxiety had come back much worse than before. I felt sick and shaky. I couldn’t eat – I lost half a stone in a month, and I was only 8st to begin with. I can’t think what else it could have been, but withdrawal from the antidepressant.’

After my phone call with Rebekah, she sent me a list of her withdrawal symptoms from venlafaxine. They included depression, uncontrollable crying, anger and an inability to eat or sleep. ‘I had suicidal thoughts,’ she said. ‘I even considered how to do it. Only focusing on my son and my husband stopped me from doing it.’

Antidepressants are the most widely prescribed drug in the Public Health England report, but there are still doctors, including the psychiatrist I saw, who prescribe other drugs – specifically benzodiazepines – more than they should. The risks of dependence and withdrawal symptoms from benzos have been well known for decades.

The official take from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) is: ‘Benzodiazepine hypnotics should be used only if insomnia is severe, disabling or causing the person extreme distress. The lowest dose that controls symptoms should be used for a maximum of four weeks, and intermittently if possible.’

Benzos work differently to antidepressants, in that you actively crave them. As happened to me, many patients quickly become tolerant to their prescribed dosage, then take more than the label on the box dictates to achieve the same effect, which means they run out early, and have a gap between the last pill and the next prescription. Monday mornings would see me hopping from foot to foot outside the chemist’s, praying the pharmacist wasn’t delayed by a traffic jam.

I initially tried coming off the benzos with outpatient advice from a specialist psychiatrist. The withdrawal effects – unbearable anxiety, sweating, nausea – were so severe that I couldn’t continue. I did some research online and chose a rehab clinic whose website declared it had experience in helping people off prescription pills.

When I arrived, they said, ‘We’ve only had one like you before.’ I stayed six weeks at £2,000 a week. Sick and miserable, I left on less than half the dose I’d gone in with, but felt a failure – I didn’t really ‘get’ the 12-step programme, nor identify with the stories of the other addicts.

And here’s the crux of the problem: where do people like me go for help? Because – apart from a few websites, undermanned helplines and an online DIY reduction programme called The Ashton Manual – there isn’t much out there at the moment.

Anne* is 41 and a former HR administrator. She hasn’t worked since 2012 because of problems with pregabalin, a nerve painkiller increasingly prescribed for anxiety, and one of the ‘big five’ (see box on previous page). ‘When I was trying to come off pregabalin I felt so isolated,’ she says. ‘No one really talked about prescription-pill addiction, and hardly anyone had heard of this drug. I had nowhere to go, and at times I wanted to die.’



Anne was prescribed pregabalin for severe anxiety related to work, as well as chronic joint pain. ‘The doctor wanted to try me on a new drug,’ she says. ‘I didn’t ask many questions – I trusted her. The first pill worked like a dream: I felt “back in my body”, my pain lessened and my agitation disappeared.’

The second course didn’t work nearly as well. ‘Even so, I stayed on it for about six months. Then, one day, I decided there wasn’t much point taking it: I wanted to be drug-free. So I just stopped. And suddenly, I was in hell.’

Anne was soon hit with terrible stomach cramps. ‘I couldn’t get off the loo,’ she says. ‘I had night sweats, and I couldn’t sleep. I didn’t know what was going on. It took me two weeks to go back to the doctor because I couldn’t think straight. But, finally, I twigged it must be something to do with stopping the pregabalin.’

Anne’s GP told her she’d been on such a small dose that she couldn’t possibly be suffering from withdrawal symptoms, that it had to be a relapse in her original mental-health condition. (I’ve heard doctors say this quite a lot.) Anne persisted. In the end, her GP sent her away with a tiny dose of pregabalin.

‘As soon as I started taking it, I felt better,’ she says. ‘I then began opening the capsules, dividing up the powder and taking smaller and smaller quantities over a period of two weeks. I felt absolutely dreadful, but at least I was in control.’ Anne has now been drug-free for almost six years. ‘But I still don’t feel right,’ she says. ‘I feel jittery and on edge, in a way I never did before taking the pregabalin. My joint pain is still there. I don’t want to be a scaremonger, but that’s my experience.’

The problem, says Dr Healy, is that the medical profession doesn’t really know what to do with prescription-drug users. ‘We don’t have much of an idea,’ he says. ‘There’s no reliable way to get off. Tapers can help many people stay safe, but not everyone.’



A ‘taper’ is, as it sounds, a gradual reduction programme, where the medication is cut down in increments until the user is off it completely. Professor Heather Ashton of Newcastle University was responsible for the eponymous manual, available online, which up to now has been the go-to resource for people withdrawing from benzos. Some ex-sufferers are campaigning on social media for the NHS to offer ‘taper strips’ – prescribed and readily packaged decreasing doses that exist in Holland.


Marion Brown, a retired therapist based in Helensburgh, near Glasgow, has made it her vocation to help people withdrawing from prescription medicines. ‘There’s no funding to research this problem, because scientific studies are funded by drugs companies,’ she says. ‘And the forms used by GPs to log “medically unexplained symptoms” are paid for by pharmaceutical manufacturers.’

Back in 2013, a client asked Marion to set up a social-media network to help sufferers; @recover2renew began on Twitter in 2015. But ‘we’re just a small group’, she says. ‘The best resource is an American one, theinnercompass.org.’ Similarly, Healy is on the team behind rxisk.org, a website that supports people dependent on prescription drugs. So what of the Public Health England report? ‘I welcome it, it’s good to have,’ says Healy. But helplines and guidelines do not help unless there’s a general acceptance that this is a serious issue. At the moment I’m not sure we have that. A survey last month by the mental-health charity Mind showed that four in five of those asked had not been told the potential side effects of their medication.



Healy would like to see properly funded research into how and why certain drugs create dependency. ‘For example, most studies only last for 12 weeks,’ he explains. ‘We need an examination of the longer-term effects of antidepressants and allied medication. Of why people become addicted, and how to taper effectively. Tapering doesn’t work for everyone – some patients still have severe withdrawal symptoms.’

In the meantime, there are the survivors. We are still here, but at a cost. Anne sufferers from chronic fatigue, and cannot go out in crowds. So terrified is Rebekah of suffering postnatal depression and needing venlafaxine again, she’s unsure about whether to have another baby. I suffered a nine-year dent in my career, lost my job as a magazine editor and gained a stack of weight. Would these things have happened anyway? Of course, it can be argued that they were down to our ‘original condition’.

But when the thousands of people suffering from prescription-pill addiction finally feel brave enough to step out of the shadows, these stories will become harder to ignore.
 
Happens everywhere. I still see lots of irrational polypharmacy. Offer no opiates as it violates cdc and fda guidelines.

Actually the CDC guidelines do not recommend against opiates- the guidelines are just a rational means of prescribing IF one chooses to do so. 90 mg max, 50 mg if on benzos. Of course, the evidence to support opiates for chronic pain is absent or poor at best.

If you do prescribe, you are certainly taking an additional risk. I just got contacted that I am being sued for a patient that had 3-4 back surgeries for whom I prescribed 5mg hydrocodone tid for a number of years with good UDS, ORT, contract, ect. She committed suicide a couple of years ago and the family sued just under the statute of limitations. Its not clear whether she used the meds to commit suicide or not. However, one must accept that such things can happen, even if one follows the "rules". Lawsuits don't bug me- it is just a risk of our field. Thankfully it does not happen very often.

ALWAYS check the payer mix before joining a practice. In general, you never want over 50% Medicare and 5% Medicaid at the worst (if one is paying the overhead and you are in private practice). Your overhead is the same, regardless of the payer mix, and a bad payer mix can make you broke very fast.
 
Actually the CDC guidelines do not recommend against opiates- the guidelines are just a rational means of prescribing IF one chooses to do so. 90 mg max, 50 mg if on benzos. Of course, the evidence to support opiates for chronic pain is absent or poor at best.

If you do prescribe, you are certainly taking an additional risk. I just got contacted that I am being sued for a patient that had 3-4 back surgeries for whom I prescribed 5mg hydrocodone tid for a number of years with good UDS, ORT, contract, ect. She committed suicide a couple of years ago and the family sued just under the statute of limitations. Its not clear whether she used the meds to commit suicide or not. However, one must accept that such things can happen, even if one follows the "rules". Lawsuits don't bug me- it is just a risk of our field. Thankfully it does not happen very often.

ALWAYS check the payer mix before joining a practice. In general, you never want over 50% Medicare and 5% Medicaid at the worst (if one is paying the overhead and you are in private practice). Your overhead is the same, regardless of the payer mix, and a bad payer mix can make you broke very fast.

To make it clear. I was stating in patients coming in on BZD:

11.Clinicians should avoid prescribing opioid pain medication and benzodiazepines concurrently whenever possible.
 
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ALWAYS check the payer mix before joining a practice. In general, you never want over 50% Medicare and 5% Medicaid at the worst (if one is paying the overhead and you are in private practice). Your overhead is the same, regardless of the payer mix, and a bad payer mix can make you broke very fast.

How does one find this information?
 
To make it clear. I was stating in patients coming in on BZD:

11.Clinicians should avoid prescribing opioid pain medication and benzodiazepines concurrently whenever possible.

I misinterpreted what you said. Certainly you are correct. However, the guidelines do discourage, but not preclude, the administration of narcotics with benzos at doses of 50 mg morphine equivilents.

That being said, I think that most providers, as noted in the guidelines, discourage the co-administration of benzos and narcotics at any doses.
 
How does one find this information?

Their billing person will have all that data- you just need to ask for it when you are checking into a practice. The providers usually have a fairly inaccurate picture of their payer mix and are many times surprised when presented with the objective data. When you are there, also check a schedule for the day and count how many patients are over 65 (there is your medicare number), and take a look periodically in the waiting room to get an idea of how many Medicaid patients they are seeing. Patients do not like to travel far, so a practice close to a poorer area will get those patients, while a suburban location will tend to attract those patients. Another rough way to get a feel for the payer mix is to ask the front desk gal (they have to take in the information) what the relative payer mix is- they will know.

I had my office manager give me a breakdown of revenues and expenses every month, with a breakdown of absolute and percentage revenues from all the payers, as well as "write offs" for the month, relative to monthly overhead expenses. If they tell you they don't have that data, turn and run- everyone has it.

When you ask for the printed payer mix information, make sure you ask for the documented mix for the PRIMARY insurance, as sometimes they will "cheat" and list a medicare patient with secondary commercial in the class of the commercial payer, which is a complete false representation of their payer mix. Likewise with Medicaid administration by private insurers, they will not list them as primary Medicaid.

Also, always ask what their top four commercial insurance plans are and what the reimbursement is for something simple, like a lumbar epidural, which is an easy and uniform 62323 code with which you can get an idea of the "medicare multiplier" for those plans. If most of their commercial plans are less than 3X medicare, turn and run. It doesn't matter what your % of commercial payers is if they don't pay crap. Also check the percentage of workman's comp auto/casualty patients. Different states reimburse quite differently for comp- unless it pays VERY WELL, it is not worth the effort, as they take more time and rarely get better anyway. The auto casualty bills will be negotiated down if a final settlement has not been made, and you end up getting less than you thought you would. Ask what the annual revenue is, per provider, for "non clinical" income (quality plans, IMEs, medical director, attorney payments, ect). Sometimes the guys make a pile of cash through other sources, which is not accurately reflected in their total income, such that most people assume ALL of a provider's income comes from direct patient care.

Lastly, ask for the overall gross and net annual revenues, as well as the breakdown of overhead expenses (lease, employees, equipment leases, supplies, ect) so you have a very clear idea of clinic overhead and what your expected overhead may be.

If someone won't provide the data, turn and run.
 
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I get a decent amount of Klonopin TID and Adderall. Not elderly, usually 45 yo M with spondylosis and axial pain.

You have suddenly discovered why so many of your patients cannot sleep at night.

Additionally, I am shocked by the number of patients who have used Ambien for decades and dose SSRIs and SSNRIs at night, instead of the morning. No wonder they are crazy and can't sleep.
 
You have suddenly discovered why so many of your patients cannot sleep at night.

Additionally, I am shocked by the number of patients who have used Ambien for decades and dose SSRIs and SSNRIs at night, instead of the morning. No wonder they are crazy and can't sleep.
Its not unusual for certain SSRIs to be mildly sedating
 
Their billing person will have all that data- you just need to ask for it when you are checking into a practice. The providers usually have a fairly inaccurate picture of their payer mix and are many times surprised when presented with the objective data. When you are there, also check a schedule for the day and count how many patients are over 65 (there is your medicare number), and take a look periodically in the waiting room to get an idea of how many Medicaid patients they are seeing. Patients do not like to travel far, so a practice close to a poorer area will get those patients, while a suburban location will tend to attract those patients. Another rough way to get a feel for the payer mix is to ask the front desk gal (they have to take in the information) what the relative payer mix is- they will know.

I had my office manager give me a breakdown of revenues and expenses every month, with a breakdown of absolute and percentage revenues from all the payers, as well as "write offs" for the month, relative to monthly overhead expenses. If they tell you they don't have that data, turn and run- everyone has it.

When you ask for the printed payer mix information, make sure you ask for the documented mix for the PRIMARY insurance, as sometimes they will "cheat" and list a medicare patient with secondary commercial in the class of the commercial payer, which is a complete false representation of their payer mix. Likewise with Medicaid administration by private insurers, they will not list them as primary Medicaid.

Also, always ask what their top four commercial insurance plans are and what the reimbursement is for something simple, like a lumbar epidural, which is an easy and uniform 62323 code with which you can get an idea of the "medicare multiplier" for those plans. If most of their commercial plans are less than 3X medicare, turn and run. It doesn't matter what your % of commercial payers is if they don't pay crap. Also check the percentage of workman's comp auto/casualty patients. Different states reimburse quite differently for comp- unless it pays VERY WELL, it is not worth the effort, as they take more time and rarely get better anyway. The auto casualty bills will be negotiated down if a final settlement has not been made, and you end up getting less than you thought you would. Ask what the annual revenue is, per provider, for "non clinical" income (quality plans, IMEs, medical director, attorney payments, ect). Sometimes the guys make a pile of cash through other sources, which is not accurately reflected in their total income, such that most people assume ALL of a provider's income comes from direct patient care.

Lastly, ask for the overall gross and net annual revenues, as well as the breakdown of overhead expenses (lease, employees, equipment leases, supplies, ect) so you have a very clear idea of clinic overhead and what your expected overhead may be.

If someone won't provide the data, turn and run.
I appreciate your experience and willing to share this information Hawkeye, it's a boon to all of us. I wonder, however, if your information is dated. In my area, commercial rarely, if ever, pays 3x Medicare. Medicaid is about 50% Medicare. In other offices in my company in other states, I'm told commercial BCBS is 70% Medicare because they have a virtual monopoly in the state and Medicaid pays close to Medicare rates. These numbers are highly variable and Commercial is moving towards an Evicore based denials with Medicare based payments.
 
Its not unusual for certain SSRIs to be mildly sedating

It's directly related to the amount of anticholinergic activity.

Fluoxetine tends to have very little anticholinergic activity and tends to be more "activating" as a result. Paroxetine, conversely, has more anticholinergic effects and tends to be more sedating.
 
I appreciate your experience and willing to share this information Hawkeye, it's a boon to all of us. I wonder, however, if your information is dated. In my area, commercial rarely, if ever, pays 3x Medicare. Medicaid is about 50% Medicare. In other offices in my company in other states, I'm told commercial BCBS is 70% Medicare because they have a virtual monopoly in the state and Medicaid pays close to Medicare rates. These numbers are highly variable and Commercial is moving towards an Evicore based denials with Medicare based payments.
My area is similar to what you describe - 2 commercial payors dominate and consequently pay garbage. In some cases lower than Medicare rates. Oddly enough the Medicaid private contractor pays better than Medicare. WC is a little better but not enough to balance out the paperwork. Hawkeye was scaring me a bit, making me wonder if I really should run from my current area.
 
My area is similar to what you describe - 2 commercial payors dominate and consequently pay garbage. In some cases lower than Medicare rates. Oddly enough the Medicaid private contractor pays better than Medicare. WC is a little better but not enough to balance out the paperwork. Hawkeye was scaring me a bit, making me wonder if I really should run from my current area.
Really shouldn’t accept less than Medicare. We average 150% on contracted plans.
 
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I appreciate your experience and willing to share this information Hawkeye, it's a boon to all of us. I wonder, however, if your information is dated. In my area, commercial rarely, if ever, pays 3x Medicare. Medicaid is about 50% Medicare. In other offices in my company in other states, I'm told commercial BCBS is 70% Medicare because they have a virtual monopoly in the state and Medicaid pays close to Medicare rates. These numbers are highly variable and Commercial is moving towards an Evicore based denials with Medicare based payments.
Rates vary by locale, discussion is on point. Thanks @hawkeye2009
 
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