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LookingAhead

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  1. Pre-Veterinary
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I am new to this forum but I wanted to see what everyone thought about a particular subject. I know that all veterinarians are for animal welfare and totally against animal rights. But I just got accepted into veterinary school and I am for animal rights. I understand that we will be using animals for teaching and I am ok with that. Human doctors use human bodies for teaching. I am not an extremest or anything, but I really want to know how hard this will make life for me in Vet school.
 
Hrmmm I would avoid blanket statements like "all vets are against animal rights" because you will always find exceptions to every rule. In addition I think most vet students and vets look at this issue very broadly and use a lot of different types of ideas when deciding their own morals and values.

Not only that but animal welfare and animal rights are not mutually exclusive concepts. Many vets, scientists, legislatures and the public use a combination of ideas about welfare and rights when making decisions about animal health and well being.
 
First, why don't you tell us what your definition of animal rights is?

All animals should have the same rights as people do. I personally do not see what separates people and animals. I want to be a vet that does not consider animals as property but as equals. I do not eat any animal products. Animals deserve better then what people give them.
 
All animals should have the same rights as people do. I personally do not see what separates people and animals. I want to be a vet that does not consider animals as property but as equals. I do not eat any animal products. Animals deserve better then what people give them.

:corny:
This thread will be a must-read...
 
My two cents:

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and that's exactly what they are, opinions, not facts or lies. But research it extensively before you make that opinion. It's a hotly debated topic, with some pretty radical viewpoints on either side! One (of the many) fuzzy line that is drawn is pet ownership/caretaking. Most animal rights agendas don't like it... Which doesn't leave much for a career in vet med. Juuust something to consider! Good luck in whichever view point you decide! =)
 
My two cents:

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and that's exactly what they are, opinions, not facts or lies. But research it extensively before you make that opinion. It's a hotly debated topic, with some pretty radical viewpoints on either side! One (of the many) fuzzy line that is drawn is pet ownership/caretaking. Most animal rights agendas don't like it... Which doesn't leave much for a career in vet med. Juuust something to consider! Good luck in whichever view point you decide! =)

Yes, like I said I am not an extremist of anything. I just lean more towards the animal rights views then the animal welfare views. Of course there are crazies on both sides and I try to avoid that. But I have already been accepted to a vet school and I plan on going and making a career out of it. I think I will just be a little different them most people in my class.
 
All animals should have the same rights as people do. I personally do not see what separates people and animals. I want to be a vet that does not consider animals as property but as equals. I do not eat any animal products. Animals deserve better then what people give them.


I would like to say I totally agree with this, it's just that society makes the reality of this pretty difficult. I would like to strive toward this view, but then again I do eat meat...no one is perfect I guess.

As far as vet school, you should really look into the different schools, I think some programs may have mostly eliminated live animal use, especially with the technology available today. I know that Iowa state is one of the only schools left that still does terminal surgeries
 
Just playing devil's advocate here but you said that animals should have the same rights as humans. So animals should have the right to vote, be tried in a court of law, etc.? I think it is important to strive for treating animals with respect but saying they should have equal rights as humans is pushing it.
 
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Just playing devil's advocate here but you said that animals should have the same rights as humans. So animals should have the right to vote, be tried in a court of law, etc.? I think it is important to strive for treating animals with respect but saying they should have equal rights as humans is pushing it.

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What about elective surgery? What if a cat tells you not to remove that benign tumor?

Voting age ... do you count literal years or dog/cat years?

What determines citizenship?

Can an elephant run for office?

Can you operate on an animal without an SSN? Do they have to show ID? What if they're not insured?
 
Just playing devil's advocate here but you said that animals should have the same rights as humans. So animals should have the right to vote, be tried in a court of law, etc.? I think it is important to strive for treating animals with respect but saying they should have equal rights as humans is pushing it.

In a lot of countries people do not have the right to vote or be tried in a court of law. When I say rights I'm referring to the natural rights not legal rights of all humans. Mostly that animals should be considered as individuals and not property.
 
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What about elective surgery? What if a cat tells you not to remove that benign tumor?

Voting age ... do you count literal years or dog/cat years?

What determines citizenship?

Can an elephant run for office?

Can you operate on an animal without an SSN? Do they have to show ID? What if they're not insured?

In all seriousness ("An Elephant Runs For Office" sounds like it could be a children's book, ahahaha), where DO animal rights activists/advocates draw the line?
 
As far as vet school, you should really look into the different schools, I think some programs may have mostly eliminated live animal use, especially with the technology available today. I know that Iowa state is one of the only schools left that still does terminal surgeries


Good point to look into this!

I don't know about most schools, but of the schools I interviewed at, I asked about terminal surgeries and they still do them (Purdue & Minnesota)
 
In a lot of countries people do not have the right to vote or be tried in a court of law. When I say rights I'm referring to the natural rights not legal rights of all humans. Mostly that animals should be considered as individuals and not property.

Ok then, what are their natural rights? You say they should be considered as individuals, what do you mean by this? I consider my dogs' individual needs and what not but I still consider them my property.
 
Ok then, what are their natural rights? You say they should be considered as individuals, what do you mean by this? I consider my dogs' individual needs and what not but I still consider them my property.

All I can say is that if you are for animal welfare then maybe you should research a little on animal rights. I don't think you can really take a side of argument if you do not even know what the other side is. I feel like many people are for animal welfare just because vet school told you to think that way. I really do not have time to go into over the points of an entire argument especially when all you have to do it type in animal rights into google.

On the other hand. I kind of got my answer. Some people in vet school will disagree with me and some will have no clue what animal rights even is. Thats ok I just want to be prepared. I don't try to change peoples minds or preach what I think is morally right. And I guess there are some vets out there who think the same way. Not every vet can possibly be the same.
 
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👍

What about elective surgery? What if a cat tells you not to remove that benign tumor?

Voting age ... do you count literal years or dog/cat years?

What determines citizenship?

Can an elephant run for office?

Can you operate on an animal without an SSN? Do they have to show ID? What if they're not insured?

Way to mock the OP. You guys are rude. Just because someone is a little naive, doesn't mean you have to jump down their throat.

Personally, I believe that animals shouldn't be defined as "objects" when it comes to the law, and I'm all for harsher punishments when it comes to animal cruelty and neglect. Doesn't that fall under the rights catagory more so than the welfare catagory? Maybe it's a mixture of both? And I bet you will find a lot of vets that will agree with you there.

Personally, I don't think it's okay to keep wild (undomesticated!!!) animals im captivity just for people's pleasure (zoos, marine parks, etc). It's a little different if the animal is injured and cannot be returned to the wild. Surely, if I have my way, there would be no zoos or marine parks, but hey, I could live with that.

It's one thing to believe in something and take all the steps to avoid going against your views (not owning pets, not eating animals, not taking medications that were tested on animals, etc), but you gotta pick your battles. Maybe you should ask the OP WHY he/she doesn't agree with owning animals? If it's for the reason that a lot of humans don't treat their animals well, then going into veterinary medicine is one way to help tackle that problem in your own little way.

I also find it hilarious that everyone here is like OMG ANIMAL RIGHTZ NOOOO, THEY WON'T LET YOU IN IF YOU BELIEVE THAT CRAP... and well... somebody got in.
 
What about euthanasia? This is obviously something every vet will or has dealt with. You can not put a suffering human "to sleep" (another topic all together) but could you do it for an animal that is suffering from a terminal disease? Or an animal that has such horrible behavioral problems that it is a threat to humans? Just curious...
 
Ok now you are getting personal. How do you know I haven't done my research into the subject? I researched both sides of this argument pretty thoroughly before my interviews last year so that I could form an opinion. I am not the kind of person who just forms an opinion without considering each side. You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. All I did was ask what you considered natural rights. My opinion on what is a natural right might be different than yours. That is why I asked.
 
What about euthanasia? This is obviously something every vet will or has dealt with. You can not put a suffering human "to sleep" (another topic all together) but could you do it for an animal that is suffering from a terminal disease? Or an animal that has such horrible behavioral problems that it is a threat to humans? Just curious...

Actually in many countries human euthanasia is well practiced. Even in the United States several states have laws that allow human euthanasia under certain circumstances. I do not think I would put an animal to sleep just because it was bad. And my vet has done the same. One client came in with a 1 year old dog that had peed on her floor. She wanted it put to sleep for the crime. My vet said hell no. Every situation is different but I think that I will just have to do what I think is right in each different case.
 
All I can say is that if you are for animal welfare then maybe you should research a little on animal rights. I don't think you can really take a side of argument if you do not even know what the other side is. I feel like many people are for animal welfare just because vet school told you to think that way. I really do not have time to go into over the points of an entire argument especially when all you have to do it type in animal rights into google.

On the other hand. I kind of got my answer. Some people in vet school will disagree with me and some will have no clue what animal rights even is. Thats ok I just want to be prepared. I don't try to change peoples minds or preach what I think is morally right. And I guess there are some vets out there who think the same way. Not every vet can possibly be the same.


WHen you type animal rights into google, PETA comes up.

PETA believes-

-horses should not be used by human at all (not even for pleasure riding)
-no zoos, aquariums, etc
-no animal research (even if it leads to medical advancements)
-veganism (cows, pigs, etc should not be used, and therefore should be allowed to die out as species because there is no natural place in our world for them anymore)
-there should be no working dogs (no seeing eye dogs, rescue dogs, etc)
-I could go on and on


So are you the one that really understands animal rights? What exactly do you plan to do as a veterinarian to avoid going against animal rights? Hug puppies all day? Remember, you can't support anything that might use animal research to get results (such as flea/tick products, medication trials, etc)
 
Ok now you are getting personal. How do you know I haven't done my research into the subject? I researched both sides of this argument pretty thoroughly before my interviews last year so that I could form an opinion. I am not the kind of person who just forms an opinion without considering each side. You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. All I did was ask what you considered natural rights. My opinion on what is a natural right might be different than yours. That is why I asked.

Natural rights is an idea that is well written about. Here ya go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights
 
WHen you type animal rights into google, PETA comes up.

PETA believes-

-horses should not be used by human at all (not even for pleasure riding)
-no zoos, aquariums, etc
-no animal research (even if it leads to medical advancements)
-veganism (cows, pigs, etc should not be used, and therefore should be allowed to die out as species because there is no natural place in our world for them anymore)
-there should be no working dogs (no seeing eye dogs, rescue dogs, etc)
-I could go on and on


So are you the one that really understands animal rights? What exactly do you plan to do as a veterinarian to avoid going against animal rights? Hug puppies all day? Remember, you can't support anything that might use animal research to get results (such as flea/tick products, medication trials, etc)

Whoa I never said I was a part of PETA. Many are extremists in my opinion and I would not want to be associated in something like that. I do agree with some of there statements like there should be no zoos and circus type things. Wild animals are just that. Wild animals. We should leave them alone and not try to bring them into the human world. And as I said before I don't eat meat and stay away from animal products- so ya. Cows, pigs, and chickens are useless for me. Do I think that people should not own animals? No. But the way some people treat animals makes me sick. When you start using your animals profit or entertainment I just can not agree with it morally. So I guess I am not 110% animal rights. But a lot of things they say I agree with. Not everything, I just go with what I think is morally right.
 
Natural rights is an idea that is well written about. Here ya go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights

I don't have an opinion one way or another about animal rights; but I will say that the wikipedia entry says, "Likewise, different philosophers and statesmen have designed different lists of what they believe to be natural rights"

So, I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to ask you to define what rights you consider to be natural/your criteria for deciding that. Even though the concept of natural rights is well defined, the specific list of what rights are natural is different depending on whom you talk to.
 
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Okay, from your own link:
The existence of natural rights has been asserted by different individuals on different premises
All that was asked was what is YOUR definition of natural rights, since even according to your own link, the definition varies.

ETA: Damnit Robdude, you beat me to my point! 😛
 
Whoa I never said I was a part of PETA. Many are extremists in my opinion and I would not want to be associated in something like that. I do agree with some of there statements like there should be no zoos and circus type things. Wild animals are just that. Wild animals. We should leave them alone and not try to bring them into the human world. And as I said before I don't eat meat and stay away from animal products- so ya. Cows, pigs, and chickens are useless for me. Do I think that people should not own animals? No. But the way some people treat animals makes me sick. When you start using your animals profit or entertainment I just can not agree with it morally. So I guess I am not 110% animal rights. But a lot of things they say I agree with. Not everything, I just go with what I think is morally right.

The first thing that most people think of when they think of animal rights is PETA-so then that's just an example of reactions you'll get from people in the veterinary community. You need to have an idea of where you stand on each of these issues and why specifically you feel that way.
 
Actually in many countries human euthanasia is well practiced. Even in the United States several states have laws that allow human euthanasia under certain circumstances. I do not think I would put an animal to sleep just because it was bad. And my vet has done the same. One client came in with a 1 year old dog that had peed on her floor. She wanted it put to sleep for the crime. My vet said hell no. Every situation is different but I think that I will just have to do what I think is right in each different case.

I had to put my 1 yr old mix breed to sleep because of behavior. We went to three different types of trainers, and two behaviorists, one a veterinary behaviorist. He had extreme possession aggression to the point where you could not go into a room where he was eating or he would attack you. My roommate had to beat him off of my arm once because I got too close to him when he was eating and he attacked me. I don't believe in euthanizing animals because they pee on the floor, but if it is my safety or theirs, I have to choose mine.

Unfortunately I think the term "animal rights" is too ambiguous. I would reason to believe that all vets, vet students and pre-vets are on some level for the ethical treatment of animals. So on some level, we are all for some type of animal rights - they have the right to be properly cared-for and not abused. But I personally could not say that I value a human life equally to an animal's life - sorry. If I were to walk downstairs and find my house on fire with my dogs and a complete stranger all passed out from smoke, I would probably save the human. I would mourn like hell for the loss of my dogs, and thinking about it even depresses me, but that completely ridiculous scenario is just to show that I can't put humans and animals together. Just my 2 cents since the OP did ask for our opinions, but you know what they say about those...just like ***holes, we all have them and they all stink.
 
I don't have an opinion one way or another about animal rights; but I will say that the wikipedia entry says, "Likewise, different philosophers and statesmen have designed different lists of what they believe to be natural rights"

So, I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to ask you to define what rights you consider to be natural/your criteria for deciding that. Even though the concept of natural rights is well defined, the specific list of what rights are natural is different depending on whom you talk to.

You want a specific list of what I think my natural rights are? Sorry I'm not a philosopher and I do not have a specific list... but I am sure if you look it over you can get the reoccurring theme and get a basic idea of the difference between natural rights and legal rights. I am really not going into that further.
 
If you're not willing to explain your own position, you have no right to get mad when people judge you based on their perceptions of your opinion. Animal rights has very specific connotations, and if you're not willing to specify what you believe, it's not unreasonable for us to believe that you believe typical animals rights positions.
 
I guess I'm not 100% clear on what animal rights are since I thought a fundamental concept was that they should not be pets, even domesticated animals, because domestication was a human process. Is that the case? And this is not your view I can see. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and you have gotten into vet school (congrats!) but it may be best to say you sit somewhere in between animal welfare and animal rights, because thats what it seems to me. You wouldn't want people to form opinions about you because they have one definition of animal rights and you have another.
 
Actually in many countries human euthanasia is well practiced. Even in the United States several states have laws that allow human euthanasia under certain circumstances. I do not think I would put an animal to sleep just because it was bad. And my vet has done the same. One client came in with a 1 year old dog that had peed on her floor. She wanted it put to sleep for the crime. My vet said hell no. Every situation is different but I think that I will just have to do what I think is right in each different case.

I have thought about this too.... the way I see it though (burn me at the stake if you wish 😉) is that the ONLY reason I would lean toward euthanizing an animal at an owner's ridiculous whim is because clients like that (depending on where you live sometimes) can insist on taking matters into their own hands and the more humane (relative term) way out would be to peacefully euthanize, rather than have it be shot to death or some other violent end.

Case in point: I have worked at a clinic where the neighbor beat the dog to an oblivion with a metal bat because the dog kept getting into their farm and riling up the animals, to the point where we HAD to euthanize because of the brain damage. The dog was 1 year old.


I feel the same way about ear and tail dockings. I won't do it in my practice. That is a rule I resolved long ago after I worked in a clinic that wouldn't do it. I feel it is an unnecessary practice and cruel to the dogs, for purely aesthetic purposes.
 
I had to put my 1 yr old mix breed to sleep because of behavior. We went to three different types of trainers, and two behaviorists, one a veterinary behaviorist. He had extreme possession aggression to the point where you could not go into a room where he was eating or he would attack you. My roommate had to beat him off of my arm once because I got too close to him when he was eating and he attacked me. I don't believe in euthanizing animals because they pee on the floor, but if it is my safety or theirs, I have to choose mine.

Unfortunately I think the term "animal rights" is too ambiguous. I would reason to believe that all vets, vet students and pre-vets are on some level for the ethical treatment of animals. So on some level, we are all for some type of animal rights - they have the right to be properly cared-for and not abused. But I personally could not say that I value a human life equally to an animal's life - sorry. If I were to walk downstairs and find my house on fire with my dogs and a complete stranger all passed out from smoke, I would probably save the human. I would mourn like hell for the loss of my dogs, and thinking about it even depresses me, but that completely ridiculous scenario is just to show that I can't put humans and animals together. Just my 2 cents since the OP did ask for our opinions, but you know what they say about those...just like ***holes, we all have them and they all stink.

I totally agree with your decision to put down your animal. What if that dog got out and attacked a small child or seriously injured someone? But it is the same in human society, if some one is a danger they are removed from society. I guess the term animal rights is pretty broad and ambiguous. I guess all students and vets should just do what they think is morally right. Your opinion is always going to be challenged no matter where you stand. I just know now more what to expect in vet school.
 
If you're not willing to explain your own position, you have no right to get mad when people judge you based on their perceptions of your opinion. Animal rights has very specific connotations, and if you're not willing to specify what you believe, it's not unreasonable for us to believe that you believe typical animals rights positions.

By no means am I mad :laugh:

I am reading everything with an open mind and trying to look at it from a new angle. I think the poster before was just confused on the difference between natural rights and legal rights. Do I have a specific list of natural rights. no... sorry. I just don't. But you can understand the basic theme of natural rights if you just look at it. You don't really need to create a specific list...
 
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If you're not willing to explain your own position, you have no right to get mad when people judge you based on their perceptions of your opinion. Animal rights has very specific connotations, and if you're not willing to specify what you believe, it's not unreasonable for us to believe that you believe typical animals rights positions.

True. This was an awfully heated topic to start and then say:

I really do not have time to go into over the points of an entire argument especially when all you have to do it type in animal rights into google.

If that was the case, why didn't you just google animal rights yourself, without posting on a veterinary discussion forum? Its not a discussion when you brush off an argument with a statement like that after no one agrees with you? These people are just as strong in their convictions as you are in yours, except they will pull out the examples. It wouldn't take a lot of time to cite examples of what your beliefs are. It is very cowardly to strike up a debate, then brush it off with "I don't have time to debate" after people don't necessarily agree with you (which I'm SURE you had to have known would probably happen on a forum like this). I am not trying to offend you, I'm just saying it shows nothing when you pose a question that has pre-formed notions in society, and have really honestly given NO examples or leads as to your thinking, then when people lump you into the extremist thinking you say that's not how you meant it to go, but again, they have no way of knowing WHAT you were meaning.
 
By no means am I mad :laugh:

I am reading everything with an open mind and trying to look at it from a new angle. I think the poster before was just confused on the difference between natural rights and legal rights. Do I have a specific list of natural rights. no... sorry. I just don't. But you can understand the basic theme of natural rights if you just look at it. You don't really need to create a specific list...

If you are talking about me, you are incorrect. I know the difference between legal and natural rights. All I asked was what your definition was because it could be different than mine. As mentioned before, philosophers have different opinions on what qualifies as a natural right and what doesn't. I was just trying to see if we differed or not. Just because I ask you to define something, it doesn't mean I don't understand what you are talking about. I was just wanting to know where you stood.
 
All I asked was what your definition was because it could be different than mine. As mentioned before, philosophers have different opinions on what qualifies as a natural right and what doesn't.

Exactly. My own personal definition of "natural rights" would include freedom - which would put pet ownership right out the door. So working from my own definition, if someone says they believe in the natural rights of animals, and they don't specify what those natural rights are, I'm going to assume they're against all forms of animal ownership.
ETA: To clarify, Lookingahead, I'm not saying you're against animal ownership, I'm just saying where my own definition would lead me
 
Hey, how about staying on topic.

OP wants to know about how their view will affect them in vet school.

If you can defend a reasonable view, distance yourself from extremists, and are willing to put up with argumentative people then you will be fine. Based on your responses I think that is the case.

Adcoms may be wary if you mention your general views without being more specific as most people tend to define the animal rights movement by the extremists you seem to disagree with. You should have a reasonable response to the issue of working with people who you disagree with philosophically (food animals, working animals, lab animal research etc).

Personal I think what you are thinking of animal rights is not in line with what the animal rights movement is proposing. You have a more moderate position somewhere between animal welfare and animal rights.

Good luck.
 
Actually in many countries human euthanasia is well practiced. Even in the United States several states have laws that allow human euthanasia under certain circumstances. I do not think I would put an animal to sleep just because it was bad. And my vet has done the same. One client came in with a 1 year old dog that had peed on her floor. She wanted it put to sleep for the crime. My vet said hell no. Every situation is different but I think that I will just have to do what I think is right in each different case.

Um. There's only two states that have assisted suicide laws, and they're right next to each other - WA, and OR. That's it. Not "several". It is RIDICULOUSLY limited and extremely hard to go through. You have to be terminal, with less than six months to live, and it has to be documented in multiple places. It's nothing like veterinary euthanasia. They only have MAYBE a couple hundred people go through the programs each year - I did a paper on this about two months ago.
 
You want a specific list of what I think my natural rights are? Sorry I'm not a philosopher and I do not have a specific list... but I am sure if you look it over you can get the reoccurring theme and get a basic idea of the difference between natural rights and legal rights. I am really not going into that further.

Nope, I couldn't care less.

(Please don't take that as an insult, I don't mean any disrespect)

But, if you are going to have a conversation, debate or argument about X it's really important that people all know what X is. Particularly when you are telling people they need to do research before they form an opinion on X.
 
Here’s my humble 2-cents: As you said, in vet school you will find people that don’t feel the same way or don’t understand what AR is, but remember there will likely be others that DO feel the same way. You will be surrounded by all kinds. I think the important thing to remember is to treat others who do not agree or who do not understand with the same respect you would like to be treated with for your views. You do that and you’ll be fine no matter what.
 
Whoa I never said I was a part of PETA. Many are extremists in my opinion and I would not want to be associated in something like that. I do agree with some of there statements like there should be no zoos and circus type things. Wild animals are just that. Wild animals. We should leave them alone and not try to bring them into the human world. And as I said before I don't eat meat and stay away from animal products- so ya. Cows, pigs, and chickens are useless for me. Do I think that people should not own animals? No. But the way some people treat animals makes me sick. When you start using your animals profit or entertainment I just can not agree with it morally. So I guess I am not 110% animal rights. But a lot of things they say I agree with. Not everything, I just go with what I think is morally right.

I think of anyone here, I would probably get your viewpoint the most and share your views.

As for wild animals, though, I have more experience than most. I work hard everyday to help wild animals, it is my life. I am a wildlife rehabilitator. If you feel wild animals should remain that way and not bring them into the human world, what are your thoughts on wildlife rehab? I feel like you that wild animals should remain wild, but I am all in favor of doing everything I can to help them, which I would guess you are too, so I'd watch general statements. I am not OK with just letting nature take its course and leave orphaned squirrels to die or an injured animal to be eaten by something else. If there is something I can do, I will! The main reason I feel so strongly about wildlife rehab is that nearly all (as in 90% or more) of the cases that come in are wild animals in need of help because of something that humans caused. For example, squirrels are orphaned when their mom is hit by a car, animals get hit by cars, baby rabbits and other animals get attacked by stray cats, people think animals are orphaned and try to help them, only making things worse and now the animal that was fine needs help. The list goes on and on. So, for me, wildlife rehab is a way I can give back to animals and make up for some of the harm that we (including me) as humans have done.

As for keeping wild animals, I am against zoos and aquariums (odd for me to say that since my dream job from age 5 to 18 was to be a killer whale trainer at Sea World) the way they are now because of the new view of wildlife I have through my work as a rehabber. I would create a different kind of zoo though, not get rid of them altogether. There are so many cases of wildlife that comes in for rehab that for one reason or another cannot go free. Although I feel most of these animals should be euthanized because they are not well suited for life with humans, there are many many cases of animals blind in one eye, missing a leg, neurological, so many other issues where they cannot live in the wild again but they could have an awesome life in a zoo or somewhere where they will be safe and cared for. I think each case would need to be evaluated for the animals temperment and this may just be a personal view, but I'd also take into account how much life in the wild the animal experienced and how it dealt with living in a cage. I personally could never keep an adult songbird or raptor that came in that stopped it from flying. For me, once a bird has soared, that is something that shouldn't be taken from them and if it is, I would opt to euthanize.

I am also for breeding programs for endangered wildlife, so I would incorporate some of that work into zoos. So, I would favor a different kind of zoo, which would probably only work out in the ideal world that doesn't exist, but that would be the only kind of zoo I could really be in favor of. Although, I do think that especially now, we need something to get kids out there to experience animals and if going to a zoo is the only way, I might be in favor.

And I am in favor of getting rid of the meat industry 🙂, but I would have farm type places where people could pay to visit. I personally love pigs and goats and like going to farms to see them. Plus, I don't have a problem with people keeping horses and riding them or showing them, as long as they care for them properly.

I think you should avoid general statements.
 
I think you should avoid general statements.

👍

Keep going people! This is such a great distraction from studying for an exam in 2 hours (yikes).

Lets stir up that pot some more!!!

More talk about zoos! What about zoos that do animal research to try to increase genetic diversity to save species from extinction (ie. big cats)??? This includes invasive testing on captive-bred animals...

What aaaaaaaabout terminal surgeries?? Experience is the best teacher, simulations get it pretty good, but are never an eqaul match to the real deal. Watching cardiac arrest on a live, beating heart... Yes, it's extremely sad and I can definitely wait till the day to experience it, but can simulations really teach you the same thing / feelings / experiences that live work does? And will it prepare you the best when this happens to you in real life (which it most likely will)?

:beat:

Discuss!!!! I love it! Where's the popcorn????
 
But, if you are going to have a conversation, debate or argument about X it's really important that people all know what X is. Particularly when you are telling people they need to do research before they form an opinion on X.

Seriously, you can't just be like "I think animals should have natural rights attributed to them, discuss" and then not define what your idea of natural rights is.

Like others, I'd consider personal freedom from ownership to be a natural right. So I believe that in countries where people are permitted to be owned by another person, there is a violation of human rights going on.

Along the same lines, it makes no sense to say "I don't mean legal rights" and then cite the differences in legality between our country and another.

There can't be any reasonable discussion if you aren't actually participating and sharing your own views.

edit: directed at the OP, agreeing with Robdude
 
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