opinions

[squirrelsrule]

---

Members do not see this ad.

For that reason, I said that it is no sadder to raise a dog for a terminal surgery than it is to raise an animal for research or for food. As long as these animals have their basic rights fulfilled (freedom from EXCESSIVE hunger, thirst, pain, and exposure, as long as those freedoms do not interfere with human freedoms, which will always supersede animal freedoms) they have no ability to extrapolate that their life will end what a human might consider prematurely--they have no concept of that. This is also the same reason that I believe it is terribly, terribly cruel to keep a companion animal alive for weeks when it is suffering so that "family can say goodbye." That animal cannot understand that it is suffering so that it can see its owners again, or play with a bone one last time (which is probably doesn't want to do, because it's miserable)--a human could make a conscious choice that suffering is acceptable if the human is able to achieve some goal. An animal does not understand this. It understands only that it hurts, and that the people who have always taken care of it before don't seem to notice that it hurts, and that animal doesn't understand. Just writing that makes me upset, and I've seen more than my share of this in the SA hospital where I work.

Treat animals like animals. To treat them like humans is cruel.

I would agree with that. It makes me mad when people wait so long and leave their animal suffer to get more time with them or to let someone say goodbye. I totally agree that the animal doesn't understand and is not enjoying the extra time at all. It is cruel and selfish and makes me sick.

And I agree that it is no worse for an animal to be bred for terminal surgery than for research or for food. They are all sad in my opinion. The food animals are usually in a herd or group so they have eachother to bond with and are probably pretty happy, but the research animals and the terminal surgery animals lives are not anywhere near as good as a companion animals life. So, maybe the food animals I wouldn't be so against (although I wish they got to just live their full lives, I agree that that is purely a human thing to learn to deal with and that the animals do not know). The research and terminal surgery animals, though, do not have a good life in my opinion. In my opinion an animal needs more than food and water and safety to be happy. They need companionship, love, and attention to truly be happy. My main issue is why breed animals for the purpose of terminal surgery when there are tons of animals euthanized in the US already in shelters that could have been used. I am not opposed to the idea, I agree that there is no better way to learn than to experience the situation with a live animal, but why breed animals for the purpose when there are many already there that could serve the purpose.

 

[l2vet]

I would agree with that. It makes me mad when people wait so long and leave their animal suffer to get more time with them or to let someone say goodbye. I totally agree that the animal doesn't understand and is not enjoying the extra time at all. It is cruel and selfish and makes me sick.

And I agree that it is no worse for an animal to be bred for terminal surgery than for research or for food. They are all sad in my opinion. The food animals are usually in a herd or group so they have eachother to bond with and are probably pretty happy, but the research animals and the terminal surgery animals lives are not anywhere near as good as a companion animals life. So, maybe the food animals I wouldn't be so against (although I wish they got to just live their full lives, I agree that that is purely a human thing to learn to deal with and that the animals do not know). The research and terminal surgery animals, though, do not have a good life in my opinion. In my opinion an animal needs more than food and water and safety to be happy. They need companionship, love, and attention to truly be happy. My main issue is why breed animals for the purpose of terminal surgery when there are tons of animals euthanized in the US already in shelters that could have been used. I am not opposed to the idea, I agree that there is no better way to learn than to experience the situation with a live animal, but why breed animals for the purpose when there are many already there that could serve the purpose.

I would agree with you that it would be *more* ethical to use those animals already slated for euthanasia in shelters, etc. It may also save money and serve a purpose, as it is quite expensive to raise animals in a research setting, not only with all the care you have to provide, but the many certifications you have to maintain, inspections that must be passed, and so on.

However, I hesitate to say that all "companion" animals have a better life than all "research" animals. Disregarding even animals that are abused or neglected either through willful cruelty or ignorance on the part of owners, what about dogs that have lived their entire lives (often young ones found with a mother as pups) in a shelter, with maybe hundreds of constantly barking dogs, in a concrete cage with a blanket if they're lucky? I would say many research animals have a better life than this. I know this is the minority, but it's just something to think about. /devil's advocate

Basically what I'm saying is that it is not inherently UNethical to raise an animal for a terminal surgery. But as you said, there may be better ways of going about it.

 

[sumstorm]

not all research animals are housed solo. also, not all animals are purpose bred for educations purposes. Ours come from shelters and rescue groups. However, all our terminal surgeries are optional.

stating that their lives are bad because of X, and not being aware that X isn't necessarily happening perpetuates miscommunications.

I wish we saw dogs as usable for food, or would sell them to countries that do so. better than than the absolute waste of overpopulation euthanasia. I'd rather see an animal be used than wasted.

 

[breenie]

Sumstorm brings up a good point about individual variation and ability to handle certain diets.

Northern Europeans handle milk/lactose better than many Asian people due to GENETIC differences. My step-mother (who is Chinese) loves milk just as much as I do, but I can chug it by the gallon while she can only manage about half a glass. Someone can take exception to this example in that it shows that people "evolved" to handle dairy and that it wasn't "originally" what people were meant to do, but I think it's illustrative. Different populations handle and utilize nutrients differently than others due to genetic variation-- and that most certainly could play a role in people's ability to handle vegetarianism.

 

[nyanko]

Northern Europeans handle milk/lactose better than many Asian people due to GENETIC differences. My step-mother (who is Chinese) loves milk just as much as I do, but I can chug it by the gallon while she can only manage about half a glass. Someone can take exception to this example in that it shows that people "evolved" to handle dairy and that it wasn't "originally" what people were meant to do, but I think it's illustrative.

Meant to do or not, the fact that the mutation that allows lactase expression into adulthood tends to be a strong selective pressure is actually a pretty good sell FOR the consumption of animal products.

 

[squirrelsrule]

not all research animals are housed solo. also, not all animals are purpose bred for educations purposes. Ours come from shelters and rescue groups. However, all our terminal surgeries are optional.

stating that their lives are bad because of X, and not being aware that X isn't necessarily happening perpetuates miscommunications.

I wish we saw dogs as usable for food, or would sell them to countries that do so. better than than the absolute waste of overpopulation euthanasia. I'd rather see an animal be used than wasted.

I should mention that I do not have any idea about these terminal dogs or anything. All I have heard is what I heard from a vet I shadow that went to Tennessee and told me about the beagles raised for terminal surgery. It broke my heart to even hear about it. I guess I just see pictures in my mind of these little pups living in kennels and then one day they go off for the surgery and never wake up. Not the kind of life I'd wish on any little pup. Of course, the actual situation may be quite different. Maybe they all grow up together and someone takes them home? I do not know. I'd imagine that would be quite hard, I know I couldn't take home animals that were going to be operated on and euthanized soon. I just couldn't emotionally handle that as much as I think they deserve that love and attention, I couldn't get attached to animal after animal destined to die soon. I think that most people would feel that way, so there would be that emotional distancing with them and they would pick up on that. Again, these are all assumptions, I don't really know what actually goes on.

I agree, I wish we made better use of the animals currently on the planet. If they need to be euthanized because there aren't homes for all of them, at least use them for a purpose.

 

[breenie]

Meant to do or not, the fact that the mutation that allows lactase expression into adulthood tends to be a strong selective pressure is actually a pretty good sell FOR the consumption of animal products.

I am all about consumption of dairy and very thankful for the bounty of lactase I have. Mmmm. Cheese.

 

[l2vet]

I wish we saw dogs as usable for food, or would sell them to countries that do so. better than than the absolute waste of overpopulation euthanasia. I'd rather see an animal be used than wasted.

+9001. Seriously.

 

[awaring1]

I think perhaps one of the reasons that I have been able to do so well on a vegetarian diet is that I have never in my life eaten meat. My mom didn't even eat meat while she was pregnant with me. If I ever eat meat by accident I get very ill. (I accidentally ate biscuits made with lard before Christmas and I spent the whole holiday on the bathroom floor.) I of course assume that I have mistakenly come across stuff like chicken in restaurants before but I know I can not handle any solid meat. My body is obviously "different" in some slight way.

Who wants to study me? Could make for a great paper! I'll offer up to the highest bidder. 🤣

 

[Packen]

In regards to some of these posts on welfare and what is proper care for research, educational, food animals, etc, I think that people who are looking to make careers in the veterinary field should be careful of the level of anthropomorphism that they allow. The need for things like "love" are human needs, not animal needs. The idea of being completely fulfilled is also a human concept. Anthropomorphic tendencies can jade one's thinking: the puppy is not being spiteful, it is repeating a learned behavior. The cow doesn't know it is going to slaughter b/c it watched a "friend" disappear yesterday, most likely novel stimuli elicited a fear response. When looking to increase animal welfare, we should seek to address abnormal behaviors created by living conditions, not behaviors that we view as pitiful or unhappy - in the long run that will create much better environments based on the science of the actual animal and not our own feelings.

In the veterinary field, compassion is necessary - meaning one should feel badly for animals that are treated poorly or animals that are in pain. But on the other hand anthropomorphism can be detrimental to one's psyche and ultimately it is an incorrect way of addressing the behaviors of animals (see Houpt, Overall, Beaver, Dunbar and even Grandin for references on the folly of anthropomorphism).

 

[Dsmoody23]

Can I say how ridiculous this statement is? People have been eating meat since they could kill it, and this obesity epidemic is recent to the last 30 years, at max.

High cholesterol, blood pressure, obesity, heart disease and various cancers are all linked to regular EXCESSIVE meat consumption.

Most people have absolutely no concept just how small a serving of meat is, what the fat or lean content is of a particular cut, and how many calories is in it.

Meat has become a staple of the American diet, rather than the luxury or addition that it once was. There are plenty of people out there that have bottomed out their cholesterol and BP and not only still eat meat, but still eat RED meat. They just don't eat veritable truckloads of it every day, like the average American does.

Everything in moderation, including moderation.
--Julia Child

So... it's a totally ridiculous statement because it's true in our culture?

'Linked' doesn't present meat eating as the primary cause, but it is connected across the board.

If you took a sample of American eaters and switched their protein from animal to plant-based, those conditions and diseases would be dramatically reduced.

On a broad basis. Not in Sumstorm's kitchen in 1998. Or in an igloo.

It's also much more efficient ecologically. And alleviates unneeded suffering. And reduces dependence on foreign oil. And every time you eat a hamburger an angel dies.

 

[awaring1]

And every time you eat a hamburger an angel dies.

 

[l2vet]

So... it's a totally ridiculous statement because it's true in our culture?

It's a totally ridiculous statement because it's not true. EXCESSIVE meat consumption has been key in the increasing prevalence of those conditions, not any consumption of meat at all.

If you took a sample of American eaters and switched their protein from animal to plant-based, those conditions and diseases would be dramatically reduced.

If you took a sample of American eaters and reduced their protein consumption to recommended levels, as well as increased their activity levels to appropriate levels instead of leaving them completely sedentary, these conditions and diseases would be dramatically reduced. I find it ridiculous that I should be expected to assume that the ONLY way to stay healthy is to entirely eliminate meat. That is simply false.

It's also much more efficient ecologically. And alleviates unneeded suffering. And reduces dependence on foreign oil. And every time you eat a hamburger an angel dies.

I hate angels.

 

[awaring1]

I hate angels.

This thread = best ever.

👍

 

[BlacKAT33]

i was told i was missing a great thread here, i cant believe i missed 4 pgs of this! too much to catch up on, but had some great laughs tonight 🙂

 

[EllieGirl89]

I hate angels.

I love hamburgers.

Looks like we're going to do some Heavenly damage in Columbus this fall.

 

[projekt]

To give you an idea of what it is like in vet school, I asked a friend of mine to comment, and she graciously did. (Thanks, friend!).

I have definitely felt very much in the minority being an animal rights supporter (activist, if you may) in vet school. I was personally shocked at the few number of vegetarians (only a handful in each class) and the complete lack of vegans (I'm the only one in all of the classes). Being vegan, I definitely have been different and not had much support. I always have to miss out on the free lunches because there is hardly ever a vegan option.

It's apparently not a big deal and she has a thick skin and can take the jokes.

I personally do have a problem with animals dying for the sole purpose
of my education.

Georgia has a terminal surgery class that is part of the core curriculum. There was not enough time for her to propose an alternative that didn't involve killing an animal. She did, however, do the legwork to make an alternative available to future classes.

That was probably the hardest part of all of vet school
for me and I found very little support from my classmates. Many of
the were downright rude about it.

She felt a lot of pushback from the faculty about the alternative but it has proved popular enough, with 5 students in the class behind us taking it.

Other than that, I haven't had too many issues. I do encounter small
things on a day to day basis- close-mindedness and things that we're
taught that I ethically don't agree with. But for the most part, I
just accept that it's the way some people do it and that I don't have
to do it that way and we can all get along. I would definitely
encourage anyone who is passionate about animal rights to go to vet
school. Helping animals is my passion and this is the way that I feel
like I can help the most. If you feel like you're being wronged-
fight it. Make the place better than when you got there.

I couldn't say it better myself. I hope this helped you!

 

[Cautionary Tail]

I hate angels.

All of them?

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

And I agree that it is no worse for an animal to be bred for terminal surgery than for research or for food. They are all sad in my opinion. The food animals are usually in a herd or group so they have eachother to bond with and are probably pretty happy, but the research animals and the terminal surgery animals lives are not anywhere near as good as a companion animals life. So, maybe the food animals I wouldn't be so against (although I wish they got to just live their full lives, I agree that that is purely a human thing to learn to deal with and that the animals do not know). The research and terminal surgery animals, though, do not have a good life in my opinion. In my opinion an animal needs more than food and water and safety to be happy. They need companionship, love, and attention to truly be happy. My main issue is why breed animals for the purpose of terminal surgery when there are tons of animals euthanized in the US already in shelters that could have been used. I am not opposed to the idea, I agree that there is no better way to learn than to experience the situation with a live animal, but why breed animals for the purpose when there are many already there that could serve the purpose.

Just some comments/food for thought.

We used to do terminal sx at our school with purpose bred dogs. Before that we used dogs that the local humane society was going to be euthanizing anyway. We had to stop thanks to PETA individuals(I'm serious, not being sarcastic and I DO know my facts on that) protesting the crap out of it -- but purpose bred dogs were ok. WTF. We now do neither. Not sure hwo I feel yet ... do I want to do my first TPLO and splenectomy on a client's dog? Would I want someone doing their first splenectomy on my dog? not sure... but I see both sides.

The purpose bred dogs were treated just like our research animals. And while no, they don't go home and sleep in bed with you, they are provided with more than the bare bones. You have to justify before an IACUC board why you house any animal (even a mouse) by itself at our institution and get it approved. They are also required to be provided with at least two forms of enrichment (toys etc.) per dog and we have a club dedicated to providing companionship to these dogs and taking them out for walks, play time etc.

I'm not attacking you, just wanted to provide some more insight and food for thought. I used animals for my PhD thesis research -- while I hated it and I cried on more than one occasion, I also support proper use of research animals and think at this point it's necessary if we want to find treatments, cures, etc. for some diseases.

I have a huge problem with people who are against any use of resarch animals (not saying this is you) and don't walk the walk if they talk the talk. THey are certainly are entitled to their opinion, but IMHO they should not be using the drugs, the treatments, the cures that those animals brought to us. Again, that was me on a soapbox, not attacking you. 🙂

 

[Dsmoody23]

It's a totally ridiculous statement because it's not true. EXCESSIVE meat consumption has been key in the increasing prevalence of those conditions, not any consumption of meat at all.


If you took a sample of American eaters and reduced their protein consumption to recommended levels, as well as increased their activity levels to appropriate levels instead of leaving them completely sedentary, these conditions and diseases would be dramatically reduced. I find it ridiculous that I should be expected to assume that the ONLY way to stay healthy is to entirely eliminate meat. That is simply false.


I hate angels.

When 'excessive' consumption is the societal norm, it's not all that excessive anymore. And, after some reading, I find it interesting that the cut off for increasing the risk of heart disease is anything more than 9 servings per week. Or unhealthy triglyceride levels start kicking in after 1.5 servings per week.

Equally, what is the 'recommended' level of meat consumption? I feel like you're getting your baseline consumption numbers from the Hamburglar.

Lets look at it from a cost/benefit perspective.

What are the actual benefits, aside from personal preference?

And we've already listed the costs.

 

[HopefulAg]

If you took a sample of American eaters and switched their protein from animal to plant-based, those conditions and diseases would be dramatically reduced.

Just curious but, on what information are you basing this claim? I wasn't aware that a strand of amino acids from meat was inferior to a strand of amino acids coming from plants.

When 'excessive' consumption is the societal norm, it's not all that excessive anymore.

What do you consider excessive? It's hard to have a worthwhile debate with such words as 'excessive'. Use units please.

 

[mydogTuck]

I'm just curious about those that don't eat animal products...vegans and such... why? I can totally understand being against slaughtering in cruel and inhumane ways, don't know anyone who isn't against that, but is THAT the reason or is it just that animals are being eaten? Because that part's quite natural. Doesn't a lion hunt down a zebra? A bird eat a worm? Just wondering, so I guess this question is really for anyone who has pretty strong feelings against animal product consumption.

 

[nyanko]

HopefulAg: I think the point of that was not differences in the protein itself, but that the other nutrients that accompany the meat-based protein are likely to include more saturated fats and cholesterol, whereas that is not as likely for the plant-based protein.

 

[HopefulAg]

HopefulAg: I think the point of that was not differences in the protein itself, but that the other nutrients that accompany the meat-based protein are likely to include more saturated fats and cholesterol, whereas that is not as likely for the plant-based protein.

I could buy that, but should we really do away with a whole system because some people don't have personal responsibility and manage themselves well? Sounds like a societal issue we need to fix rather than just using a band-aid by banning meat.

 

[nyanko]

Not IMO, and another thing is that avoiding saturated fats and cholesterol isn't necessarily going to protect anybody from obesity or associated problems - excess carbohydrates are also stored as fat as we all know (promoting fat storage along the way), and certainly play a role in insulin resistance and Type II diabetes development.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Just curious but, on what information are you basing this claim? I wasn't aware that a strand of amino acids from meat was inferior to a strand of amino acids coming from plants.



What do you consider excessive? It's hard to have a worthwhile debate with such words as 'excessive'. Use units please.

That's the point. The amino acids are the same, mostly.

But when you get them from plants, you don't get a heaping helping of trigylcerides and hormones and garbage.

My metric for excessive is 'meat.'
L2vet's metric for excessive is 'anything more than 7lbs of bacon.'

 

[awaring1]

I'm just curious about those that don't eat animal products...vegans and such... why? I can totally understand being against slaughtering in cruel and inhumane ways, don't know anyone who isn't against that, but is THAT the reason or is it just that animals are being eaten? Because that part's quite natural. Doesn't a lion hunt down a zebra? A bird eat a worm? Just wondering, so I guess this question is really for anyone who has pretty strong feelings against animal product consumption.

If all farms were family owned and I knew where my meat came from and how it was treated I would probably eat meat. If I lived 100 years ago where each town had a respected butcher and meat was a part of the diet and not the staple of the diet, I would probably eat meat.

I know there are ways to buy local, homegrown beef and such but to me it is not worth sacrificing my identity for the occasional local-steak.

Also, I do not like the thought of killing and eating animals. I understand the food chain and I will never judge people for their eating habits but it's just not something I want to do. In this day and age it is so simple to avoid meat that if it's something I don't want to do, I don't have to.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

My metric for excessive is 'meat.'
L2vet's metric for excessive is 'anything more than 7lbs of bacon.'

I hardly think that's fair or accurate.

 

[NStarz]

I don't know why we can't have a discussion/debate without resulting to name calling and sarcasm 😕😕

 

[Dsmoody23]

I'm just curious about those that don't eat animal products...vegans and such... why? I can totally understand being against slaughtering in cruel and inhumane ways, don't know anyone who isn't against that, but is THAT the reason or is it just that animals are being eaten? Because that part's quite natural. Doesn't a lion hunt down a zebra? A bird eat a worm? Just wondering, so I guess this question is really for anyone who has pretty strong feelings against animal product consumption.

My issue with the whole meat industry is that it's just not necessary anymore.

At this point in human development, with the rate that population is growing on the planet, it's just not a viable option for feeding people economically.

I'm not weak-knee'd about suffering. I can rationalize necessary suffering, in research or poor economies where meat is a dietary must. But at this point, with what we know about diet and nutrition, killing animals to eat is just wasteful and gratuitous.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I don't know why we can't have a discussion/debate without resulting to name calling and sarcasm 😕😕

Christ.

It's a joke.

We don't need to be dead-serious in here in order to learn things from each other.

And thin skin is not an attribute we're going to want to cultivate where we're headed.

Wade in, little buddy.

 

[awaring1]

For the record if I ever ate meat the first things I would eat would be bacon and chicken wings. They are really the only thing that I feel I miss out on and actually makes my mouth water...


mmmm.... bacon....

 

[l2vet]

Let's see here.

I love hamburgers.

Looks like we're going to do some Heavenly damage in Columbus this fall.

Can we do hellish damage instead? I hate angels 😡

All of them?

My metric for excessive is 'meat.'
L2vet's metric for excessive is 'anything more than 7lbs of bacon.'

Ok, all of them except that one.

Christ.

It's a joke.

We don't need to be dead-serious in here in order to learn things from each other.

And thin skin is not an attribute we're going to want to cultivate where we're headed.

Wade in, little buddy.

See above. THAT was a joke. What you're doing is not very funny, and not just to me.

When 'excessive' consumption is the societal norm, it's not all that excessive anymore. And, after some reading, I find it interesting that the cut off for increasing the risk of heart disease is anything more than 9 servings per week. Or unhealthy triglyceride levels start kicking in after 1.5 servings per week.

Equally, what is the 'recommended' level of meat consumption? I feel like you're getting your baseline consumption numbers from the Hamburglar.

Lets look at it from a cost/benefit perspective.

What are the actual benefits, aside from personal preference?

And we've already listed the costs.

For starters, there are MANY more allergies to plants and nuts than there are to meats. I have heard of... well no meat allergies personally, and it is rare for them to occur in general, most often occuring in allergies to milk protein, which is not meat at all. I know someone who is allergic to milk (different from lactose intolerance). On the other hand, I know several people allergic to all manner of plant and plant protein products, everything from peanuts to tree nuts to carrots to celery (both part of the ragweed family) to strawberries and more. Meat provides an alternative.

Personal preference is important, as well. It also provides a use for what would otherwise be a huge waste of product from the leather and byproducts industry (think the bison hunts that left the skinned, de-tongued carcass lying to rot in the sun).

That's the point. The amino acids are the same, mostly.

But when you get them from plants, you don't get a heaping helping of trigylcerides and hormones and garbage.

Please explain which meat you're talking about. That's simply not true either, not only for all meats, but for most of them.

 

[Dsmoody23]

For the record if I ever ate meat the first things I would eat would be bacon and chicken wings. They are really the only thing that I feel I miss out on and actually makes my mouth water...


mmmm.... bacon....

I miss buffalo wings so much.

And any kind of steak.

It's almost painful sometimes.

 

[awaring1]

I miss buffalo wings so much.

And any kind of steak.

It's almost painful sometimes.

Steak never appealed to me, but pretty much anything fried and crispy looks yummy.

 

[breenie]

I'm going to make an SDN parody one of these days...

 

[Dsmoody23]

For starters, there are MANY more allergies to plants and nuts than there are to meats. I have heard of... well no meat allergies personally, and it is rare for them to occur in general, most often occuring in allergies to milk protein, which is not meat at all. I know someone who is allergic to milk (different from lactose intolerance). On the other hand, I know several people allergic to all manner of plant and plant protein products, everything from peanuts to tree nuts to carrots to celery (both part of the ragweed family) to strawberries and more. Meat provides an alternative.

Personal preference is important, as well. It also provides a use for what would otherwise be a huge waste of product from the leather and byproducts industry (think the bison hunts that left the skinned, de-tongued carcass lying to rot in the sun).

How does an allergy to a specific plant substance correlate to health problems linked to an entire food group?

Also, if you're using meat as an alternative to strawberries, you're doing it wrong.

 

[l2vet]

How does an allergy to a specific plant substance correlate to health problems linked to an entire food group?

Also, if you're using meat as an alternative to strawberries, you're doing it wrong.

Sweet jesus. Meat is an alternate protein source.

Please answer my question.

 

[rosyreef]

I killed an angel tonight and it was delicious.

 

[l2vet]

I killed an angel tonight and it was delicious.

Mmmm, bacon angels. Good with pancakes.

 

[awaring1]

I killed an angel tonight and it was delicious.

I feel like their meat would be tough with all that flapping.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Sweet jesus. Meat is an alternate protein source.

Please answer my question.

Your question about which type of meat i'm talking about?

All of them.

Do we have any livestock people in the room that can talk a bit about the hormones they use to bulk up cows and chickens in factory farms?

 

[squibby]

great show in here guys

(popcorn is covered in butter-flavored bacon grease and salted with ground angel wings)

 

[sumstorm]

I know there are ways to buy local, homegrown beef and such but to me it is not worth sacrificing my identity for the occasional local-steak.

I definitly think you should be able to eat how you want to eat. I think it is interesting that you ID that as a key part of your identify.

I'm pretty picky about meat; most of it comes from a farmer's market or my parent's farm (which is all private sale.) I admit I have become slightly less selective in vet school.

 

[LookingAhead]

In regards to some of these posts on welfare and what is proper care for research, educational, food animals, etc, I think that people who are looking to make careers in the veterinary field should be careful of the level of anthropomorphism that they allow. The need for things like "love" are human needs, not animal needs. The idea of being completely fulfilled is also a human concept.

I think that people underestimate animals. What about dolphins, elephants, and primates? They are considered animals but they have also been documented showing feelings which many consider only animal feelings. Like when elephants find a dead friend and they hang around for days. Time would be better spend finding food or water but instead the elephant seems to be mourning the loss of a friend or maybe even family member. What about dolphins who are known to help other injured dolphins find food and even help them to the surface to breath. Primates and dolphins are documented to display culture. I believe that animals have more emotions then people believe. It is impossible to know what a dog is thinking because we cannot communicate with them so if you are not completely sure then why assume they don't have feelings? Just questions I am not trying to say you are wrong or anything.

To give you an idea of what it is like in vet school, I asked a friend of mine to comment, and she graciously did. (Thanks, friend!).



It's apparently not a big deal and she has a thick skin and can take the jokes.



Georgia has a terminal surgery class that is part of the core curriculum. There was not enough time for her to propose an alternative that didn't involve killing an animal. She did, however, do the legwork to make an alternative available to future classes.



She felt a lot of pushback from the faculty about the alternative but it has proved popular enough, with 5 students in the class behind us taking it.



I couldn't say it better myself. I hope this helped you!

I am so glad there are other veterinary students who feel the same way I do. I kinda assumed there were but this makes me feel so much better.

 

[rosyreef]

Do we have any livestock people in the room that can talk a bit about the hormones they use to bulk up cows and chickens in factory farms?

No added hormones in poultry.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Subbing meat out of a diet is probably one of the cheapest and easiest ways to improve your health. High cholesterol, blood pressure, obesity, heart disease and various cancers are all linked to regular meat consumption.

But, yeah. Humans don't need meat at all, and are probably worse off with it in the standard diet.

(This is probably it's own thread, but it does tie in, on some level.)

It depends on what you sub it with. There are plenty of non-meat things out there that are farrrr worse for your health than meats. It really is a matter of what kind of meat/non-meat you eat, and how that meat/non-meat is prepared. You can be a very healthy meat eater you know...

I went veg for 6 years or so and my health went to ****. It's because I replaced my meat with cheese and carbs (most of which were deep fried). Healthy vegetarian foods was really disgusting to me, whereas healthy meat foods were perfectly fine. So I went from a healthy meat diet to very bad meat-free diet.

 

[awaring1]

I think it is interesting that you ID that as a key part of your identify.

As I said, I was raised by two vegetarians. I was 100% the ONLY vegetarian in my entire high school and that was a big deal to people. I don't think it defines who I am but I feel like it is a part of me. My parents never stopped my brother or I from eating meat but we both remained veggie once we moved out. My brother is not really an animal guy (he didn't even know the names of our horses in our backyard til he was like 17) but he stuck with veggie because it was who he was and how he was brought up. It has never brought either of us great stress so there was never any need to change it.

When you are raised as vegetarian meat just isn't appealing. It is not a temptation you have to fight because you never really acknowledged it as food. When my brother was 3 or 4 there was an activity in pre-school to "circle was was good to eat" on a picture and he crossed out the tire, the pencil and the hot dog.

I said I would eat bacon because holy god do I love fried food. I have never tried veggie bacon but if it was crispy and greasy I bet I would love it.

 

[bbeventer]

great show in here guys

(popcorn is covered in butter-flavored bacon grease and salted with ground angel wings)

Right with you squibby

 

[breenie]

Do we have any livestock people in the room that can talk a bit about the hormones they use to bulk up cows and chickens in factory farms?

Why don't you? Are you referring to an implant?

Most 'factory farms' aren't bulking up cows, though-- mostly steers and heifers. 😉