Optometry AND Med school?

[tiGa]

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Hey all,
I met an OD/MD (went to med school first) who spoke about the advantages of going through both programs (not each individual program). I was wondering if anyone here has gone through both and if so, what were your motivations? Thanks!

 

[cjensen20]

excuse my ignorance...but why would anyone want to do that?😕

 

[tiGa]

excuse my ignorance...but why would anyone want to do that?😕

Haha, well, that's why I posted 🙂

The doctor I spoke to said that eyes are minimally touched upon in med school and residency was more surgery oriented so he felt that the optometry classes helped supplement the basics for his surgeries. Plus, he definitely wanted to do surgery which wouldn't be possible in most places w/o an MD.

 

[Commando303]

Haha, well, that's why I posted 🙂

The doctor I spoke to said that eyes are minimally touched upon in med school and residency was more surgery oriented so he felt that the optometry classes helped supplement the basics for his surgeries. Plus, he definitely wanted to do surgery which wouldn't be possible in most places w/o an MD.

Completing an O.D. and an M.D. (residency in ophthalmology) program might help one to form a stronger basic knowledge of the eyes and the various things that can go on with them to, but to do so simply for the sake of information is absurd. You'd likely gain the clinical knowledge you desire, as you work, and no one should wish to endure the financial burden of completing both programs if he or she can avoid doing so. Of course, if you're an optometrist, and you want to perform full surgical procedures on the eye, you have little choice but to pursue an M.D. or a D.O. (then hope for an ophth. residency), but to go the other way makes no sense (for example, work alongside an O.D. who can teach you about binocular issues, if you're an O.M.D. interested in the area).

 

[tiGa]

Completing an O.D. and an M.D. (residency in ophthalmology) program might help one to form a stronger basic knowledge of the eyes and the various things that can go on with them to, but to do so simply for the sake of information is absurd. You'd likely gain the clinical knowledge you desire, as you work, and no one should wish to endure the financial burden of completing both programs if he or she can avoid doing so. Of course, if you're an optometrist, and you want to perform full surgical procedures on the eye, you have little choice but to pursue an M.D. or a D.O. (then hope for an ophth. residency), but to go the other way makes no sense (for example, work alongside an O.D. who can teach you about binocular issues, if you're an O.M.D. interested in the area).

Yes, for me, it'd be going the other way around (OD then add MD) so I originally I thought it would be weird to add an OD but the way he talked about it brought me around to his point of view so I was wondering if anyone else had any other reasons than the ones he gave. I'm not sure if it's very logical but he believed that the experience made him a better doctor for his patients.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yes, for me, it'd be going the other way around (OD then add MD) so I originally I thought it would be weird to add an OD but the way he talked about it brought me around to his point of view so I was wondering if anyone else had any other reasons than the ones he gave. I'm not sure if it's very logical but he believed that the experience made him a better doctor for his patients.

There was an OD/MD ohtho resident (OD first) who used to post here but I haven't seen him in over a year. If I remember correctly, he went back to med school because he wanted to be able to do more than his OD degree would allow him.

 

[cjensen20]

my thoughts are...if one wanted to do that much schooling, just get a PhD instead and continue as a researcher or a professor...but to do both...is beyond me...so wait he was a MD first? then an OD?

I bet he did well in OD school after already done an MD.

my thoughts are again...if you want to work with eyes either be an OD, or be an OMD. However, I could understand someone going from an OD to a OMD...because they wanted more and didnt have a choice, and had realized after the fact...but an MD to an OD?!?

if you havent made a decision either way yet OD or OMD...dont try to pursue both, pick one or the other.

This doctor has definitely taken a route less traveled. im sure he/she has his/her reasons, but my opinion is that its not a solid investment of your time or money to do both

 

[Shnurek]

MD first and then OD after, wow never heard of that before. That is definitely rare but I can see why some people might want to do this. It could boost their chances of getting into an OMD residency, if they could not get in originally. That person would be a great asset to the profession of Optometry as a representative.

 

[Veritas23]

MD first and then OD after, wow never heard of that before. That is definitely rare but I can see why some people might want to do this. It could boost their chances of getting into an OMD residency, if they could not get in originally. That person would be a great asset to the profession of Optometry as a representative.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP's post. Someone who's seen both sides of things. Imagine them completing an Optician's training afterward too just to have it all under their belt...! (Joking of course).

 

[tiGa]

OOo, I didn't think of that! The doc didn't say anything about that but I guess he probably wouldn't. 😛 That's what made me curious, I can think of why an OD wanted to add an MD to practice SX but not the other way around. Although, I am curious to see if anyone has anything else to add as to why you would do either. I wonder if being an OD will help you get into med school... my current grades are nowhere near what I was pulling in undergrad and I was a double major with multiple leadership positions on campus~

 

[Shnurek]

I wonder if being an OD will help you get into med school... my current grades are nowhere near what I was pulling in undergrad and I was a double major with multiple leadership positions on campus~

I heard the SUNY is hard. Perhaps harder than what is necessary in relation to what ODs can actually do in New York State (no injections, no orals, no surgery, etc.) It would make more sense to have more competitive schools in states with a greater scope of practice for ODs as more competent individuals are needed to cope with a greater toolkit. But hey, not everything can be perfect 🙂

 

[Visionary]

There was an OD/MD ohtho resident (OD first) who used to post here but I haven't seen him in over a year. If I remember correctly, he went back to med school because he wanted to be able to do more than his OD degree would allow him.

That would be Vtrain. Care to chime in, if you're out there, Vtrain?

Seems strange to do med school, ophthalmology residency, then optometry school. The other way around makes more sense. Aside from strengthening your optics, specs, and CLs exposure (areas that optometry school does far better than any ophthalmology residency), I don't see gaining anything (other than additional debt) with that path.

 

[Commando303]

I heard the SUNY is hard. Perhaps harder than what is necessary in relation to what ODs can actually do in New York State (no injections, no orals, no surgery, etc.) It would make more sense to have more competitive schools in states with a greater scope of practice for ODs as more competent individuals are needed to cope with a greater toolkit. But hey, not everything can be perfect 🙂

S.U.N.Y. Optometry is one of the more difficult O.D. institutions to get into, but I don't know their curriculum is more demanding than any other school's.

 

[Shnurek]

Hey guys, just some fast facts from SUNY: http://www.sunyopt.edu/about/IRP/FS/FastFacts.pdf (Date Revised: 02/11)

 

[Commando303]

Hey guys, just some fast facts from SUNY: http://www.sunyopt.edu/about/IRP/FS/FastFacts.pdf (Date Revised: 02/11)

What's the point of posting this promotional brochure, here?

 

[Shnurek]

What's the point of posting this promotional brochure, here?

Because SUNY is awesome 🙂 Shows the board pass rates and it is relevant as we were just speaking about SUNY. Also I think the OP goes to SUNY judging by the location.

 

[Commando303]

Because SUNY is awesome 🙂 Shows the board pass rates and it is relevant as we were just speaking about SUNY. Also I think the OP goes to SUNY judging by the location.

You haven't even begun there, yet... 🙄.

 

[Shnurek]

Thanks Captain Obvious.

 

[Veritas23]

Hey guys, just some fast facts from SUNY: http://www.sunyopt.edu/about/IRP/FS/FastFacts.pdf (Date Revised: 02/11)

Post de-railed. I wish the OD/MD doc was still on these boards!

 

[Shnurek]

lol me too

 

[mclem222]

I know 4-5 people who have done it the other way OD then MD...interesting to do it that way...not sure why one would do it that way....would love to hear from that person what their reasoning was

 

[tiGa]

Haha, good catch Shnurek. I do go to SUNY.

I can only speak of SUNYopt because I haven't gone through any other program, but... I know that I'm planning to leave NY to practice in a state with a lot more rights so I'm really thankful that I get to learn how to do injections, suture, trabs, etc. even if we don't get to practice the techniques a lot. We learn about everything that any state can do as of now because we have to know them for boards. But you're absolutely right that for those staying in NY (unless you're in a VA), it's frustrating to think that you're 'wasting' all this time learning and studying all the things you won't be able to do in the near future. :/ I know that coming in, some first years tend to think that way, but hey, you want to know everything so you can make the most informed decision for your patients, right? That thinking generally tends to wear off by second year anyways.

We also have a transfer student in our class from another school who says the class workload is pretty comparable but on the other hand, I have friends at other optometry schools who are able to go out more than us so, it's a toss up.

Going back to the topic... I'm really not sure if the OD/MD had gone through OMD before OD... I guess I just kind of assumed that he took a straight shot from MD-> OMD so I never bothered to ask. :/

Anyways, good luck Shnurek. I'm glad you're realistic about our workload and so passionate about our school! 🙂 Hope to see you around soon~

 

[Shnurek]

Thanks! I am glad to know I will be learning all these extra techniques that are not allowed to be performed yet in NYS. Commando you want NY externship so bad then go ahead I'll give you my spot in 3 years lol

 

[KHE]

Haha, good catch Shnurek. I do go to SUNY.

I can only speak of SUNYopt because I haven't gone through any other program, but... I know that I'm planning to leave NY to practice in a state with a lot more rights so I'm really thankful that I get to learn how to do injections, suture, trabs, etc. even if we don't get to practice the techniques a lot. We learn about everything that any state can do as of now because we have to know them for boards. But you're absolutel

Ok class....

Who cam tell us the flaw in this persons rationale here?

 

[CarpeDeom]

While I share your sentiment, interest in going to a state with a wide scope, what KHE is trying to point out is... you can have the best scope out of all the states if you can't get paid for it (medical insurance plans) than the scope is essentially worthless. I feel that the more students who get involved with pushing for the rights of ODs to be more standardized across the country---more students get informed about the realities of scope differences across the country----we can rally for real change and medical plans may start to really accept ODs across the country for some more of these "advanced procedures" as well. So for all you pre-optoms out there, get involved in your legislatively active groups when you get to school---We are making great strides but there is a lot of work to be done and as students we have a unique ability to appeal for change to those who can help.

 

[thecgrblue]

Ok class....

Who cam tell us the flaw in this persons rationale here?

*raises hand*

It doesn't matter unless you can get paid, i.e. get on insurance panels!!!!

 

[Shnurek]

What's the best way to get onto medical insurance panels?

 

[namams]

What's the best way to get onto medical insurance panels?

Go to med school. Mwahahaha. Sorry, I couldn't resist. 😀

I'm an optometry student btw...just saying so this thread doesn't take a turn for the worse.

 

[KHE]

*raises hand*

It doesn't matter unless you can get paid, i.e. get on insurance panels!!!!

Well done!

Two gold stars for you.

 

[Shnurek]

Well for now I am happy where I am. There are always going to be people better off than you. You go to Caribbean med school, the american med students will be better than you, you go to american med school, you become an internist, and the specialists are better than you. You become a neurologist, the neurosurgeons will be better than you. You become a neurosurgeon and be all that you can be and pretty much before you know it, you may ask yourself, where did my 20's and 30's go??? That's how I see it anyways.

 

[tiGa]

Well done!

Two gold stars for you.

For me, I'm not necessarily learning about these techniques so I can do them and get paid. Rather, I think it's important for you to know the ins and outs of these techniques so that when you refer your patients out, you know what you're sending them out for and what complications you're watching out for. In addition, as a patient, I'd highly appreciate it if the doctor doing the pre or post op can tell me the facts and walk me through the procedure. Sure, you could just memorize everything but you'd probably miss details you wouldn't have noticed unless you performed it yourself once or twice.

 

[thecgrblue]

For me, I'm not necessarily learning about these techniques so I can do them and get paid. Rather, I think it's important for you to know the ins and outs of these techniques so that when you refer your patients out, you know what you're sending them out for and what complications you're watching out for. In addition, as a patient, I'd highly appreciate it if the doctor doing the pre or post op can tell me the facts and walk me through the procedure. Sure, you could just memorize everything but you'd probably miss details you wouldn't have noticed unless you performed it yourself once or twice.

The comment wasn't directed towards whether you should learn a technique or not based on if you can get paid for it. You should know every technique you could potentially be responsible for or you probably won't pass the boards.

The point of what KHE is saying is that the scope of practice that you are given in a state doesn't matter one bit if you can't get on insurance panels in that state to pay you for doing the procedure.

 

[KHE]

For me, I'm not necessarily learning about these techniques so I can do them and get paid. Rather, I think it's important for you to know the ins and outs of these techniques so that when you refer your patients out, you know what you're sending them out for and what complications you're watching out for. In addition, as a patient, I'd highly appreciate it if the doctor doing the pre or post op can tell me the facts and walk me through the procedure. Sure, you could just memorize everything but you'd probably miss details you wouldn't have noticed unless you performed it yourself once or twice.

Respectfully, I'd disagree.

While you obviously have to know the complications, you don't need to know the ins and outs of the surgery itself.

There's no need to "walk your patients through the procedure." That's the surgeons job and that's what he or she is paid for.

 

[Renova]

Hey all,
I met an OD/MD (went to med school first) who spoke about the advantages of going through both programs (not each individual program). I was wondering if anyone here has gone through both and if so, what were your motivations? Thanks!

Just out of curiosity, did that individual get his/her MD in the United States? I have heard of foreign medical graduates coming to the US and going back to school to pursue careers in other healthcare professions rather than going the rigmarole of applying for an American residency (or after unsuccessfully applying).

 

[Commando303]

Respectfully, I'd disagree.

While you obviously have to know the complications, you don't need to know the ins and outs of the surgery itself.

There's no need to "walk your patients through the procedure." That's the surgeons job and that's what he or she is paid for.

I respectfully disagree with that respectful disagreement: I feel it's important for doctors of optometry to have a thorough understanding of "all" (i.e., as many as they can) things pertaining to the eye, including surgerical procedures, and not just a "technical" knowledge of the potential complications they could encounter in a patient who comes in for a post-op.–care visit.

 

[namams]

I respectfully disagree with that respectful disagreement: I feel it's important for doctors of optometry to have a thorough understanding of "all" (i.e., as many as they can) things pertaining to the eye, including surgerical procedures, and not just a "technical" knowledge of the potential complications they could encounter in a patient who comes in for a post-op.–care visit.

I respectfully disagree with that respectful disagreement of the initial respectful disagreement. While we should try to know as much as we can, we can't possibly know the ins and outs of what a surgeon is going to do without actually doing a residency in surgery. (I'm not talking about a YAG or something like that) The surgeon might have to change what she/he's doing in the middle of a surgery due to unforeseen circumstances; therefore, he or she should be the one explaining things to the patient.

We should know all of the complications of surgeries and how to manage/treat them to provide optimal post/pre-op care.

 

[KHE]

I respectfully disagree with that respectful disagreement: I feel it's important for doctors of optometry to have a thorough understanding of "all" (i.e., as many as they can) things pertaining to the eye, including surgerical procedures, and not just a "technical" knowledge of the potential complications they could encounter in a patient who comes in for a post-op.–care visit.

Well I'll respectfully ask then what you mean when you say "a thorough understanding of all things pertaining to the eye" particularly as it relates to surgical intervention.

 

[Commando303]

Well I'll respectfully ask then what you mean when you say "a thorough understanding of all things pertaining to the eye" particularly as it relates to surgical intervention.

I mean O.D.s should be as familiar as they reasonably can be with ocular procedures, including surgical: the technologies with which they're conducted, how exactly they're carried out, what can go wrong — not just what's achieved, but the process by which it is attempted. The main separation, I believe, between an optometrist and an ophthalmologist, in this regard, ought to be what either does, not what either knows.

 

[Shnurek]

I mean OD's do pre-op and post-op so there's nothing wrong with knowing what happens during the operation. Just watch a video on youtube or something.

 

[MR1]

Haha, good catch Shnurek. I do go to SUNY.

I can only speak of SUNYopt because I haven't gone through any other program, but... I know that I'm planning to leave NY to practice in a state with a lot more rights so I'm really thankful that I get to learn how to do injections, suture, trabs, etc. even if we don't get to practice the techniques a lot. We learn about everything that any state can do as of now because we have to know them for boards. But you're absolutely right that for those staying in NY (unless you're in a VA), it's frustrating to think that you're 'wasting' all this time learning and studying all the things you won't be able to do in the near future. :/ I know that coming in, some first years tend to think that way, but hey, you want to know everything so you can make the most informed decision for your patients, right? That thinking generally tends to wear off by second year anyways.

We also have a transfer student in our class from another school who says the class workload is pretty comparable but on the other hand, I have friends at other optometry schools who are able to go out more than us so, it's a toss up.

Going back to the topic... I'm really not sure if the OD/MD had gone through OMD before OD... I guess I just kind of assumed that he took a straight shot from MD-> OMD so I never bothered to ask. :/

Anyways, good luck Shnurek. I'm glad you're realistic about our workload and so passionate about our school! 🙂 Hope to see you around soon~

What do you mean by this? Are you actually getting to do a Trab on someone, also suture?, suturing what exactly?

Really just curious here.

 

[mclem222]

I think it is very difficult to "know" the surgery well enough to explain it to a patient (covering yourself medico-legally) unless you are the actual surgeon. Different surgeons use different techniques and though you can have a general explanation of what the procedure is or what is needed there is no way I can explain a dacryocystorhinostomy the same way an oculoplastic surgeon can.

 

[thiaeyemd]

I respectfully disagree. To say that both individuals know how to do the procedure and only one "does" it is not correct. I am an oculoplastic surgeon. I have never done a Lasik procedure though I have done it on a pigs eye. I know how it basically works, the steps etc.. but to say that the only thing that separates me from a cornea specialist is me "doing it" is absurd. I would have to walk the path of doing the procedure to know how to do it period and know the intricacies of it in the steps. In the steps of an external levator resection in ptosis repair, one of the steps is exposing the levator aponeurosis. When I was a fellow it took me a long time to properly understand what that meant...not only conceptually but also from a physical point of view. These simple phrases to describe surgical steps and knowing the details of what those steps mean are vastly different. I remember one of my general surgery buddies telling me once that he was told by a senior surgeon " I want you to anteriorize the ohmentum" He himself had listed it as a step of the procedure when asked about it minutes earlier but he realized right there "Well what the hell does that mean? "Just wanted to comment on that comment.

 

[Shnurek]

I agree, performing a surgery is much harder than simply knowing how the surgery is performed. There are many variations in tissues and unexpected complications that can come up that can only really be assessed by many many hours of practice beforehand.

On another note, I hope the Kentucky OD's establish an appropriate residency to teach OD's to do the laser procedures correctly. Even though it is not scalpel surgery and with the help of machines now it may be easier, proper practice is still critical.