Oral Boards Should Die

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woopedazz said:
Brah, you entered with a rant about how exams/those who administer them are racist. Strong agenda.

I reckon the powers that be look fondly upon all examinees as the colourless cash cows we are.
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Sorry I doubt this was intentional but the irony is just too much. Just to clarify, not all users of this site are male (or brah's as you put it).

For what it's worth, I agree with your second point.

Y'all have a good night. You've given me a lot to think about when I go to work tomorrow.
 
Only color the board sees is green. Not sure why everyone is up in arms about the cost. My practice reimbursed me for it. Did nobody else get reimbursed?
 
AnonJKL123 said:
Yikes - I see I hit a nerve with some of you. Sorry if what I wrote was hard to hear or offended you. Cognitive dissonance is always a difficult thing to recognize and harder still to overcome.

Just as a thought experiment then, maybe some could try the following:

Step 1: Imagine trying to study for a board exam while hospitalized yourself or with a first degree relative dying of COVID in the hospital
Step 2: Ask any minorities/under-represented physicians in your practice (if there are any) how many got COVID or had close family members die of COVID in last year and compare the average number reported by non-minorities
Step 3: Maybe realize that COVID didn't affect everyone equally this past year
Step 4: Maybe consider the possibility that fewer minorities will sit for/pass boards during a pandemic where, statistically speaking, they or their close relatives are more likely to get infected and/or die. The option of waiting an extra year to sit for boards is a tempting alternative but remember that this also carries significant consequences for many (can't get reimbursed by insurance, can't make partner, etc)

I would be happy to try any alternative thought experiments. I would legitimately like to be wrong about this since I too will have to exist within this system for the rest of my career. Like every system, it gets exactly the results it is designed to get.

Also, I seriously doubt the ABA will cease to exist or change its ways on the basis of a single internet post. So don't worry, I'm sure your collective futures and system are safe.

That said, thank you for responding. I will always respect someone else's right to a different opinion.
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The race difference that exists for COVID-19 infections is due to socioeconomic differences. Poorer communities are more likely to work in jobs with higher exposure to the public, and they cannot stay home and work from home.

trying to paint minority race physicians as higher risk that other physicians is insane. Tertiary care centers see the most amount of Covid anyway, so many patients get funneled to a large academic center, so even if you worked in a underserved area or hospital I’m not sure it makes a difference.
 
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AnonJKL123 said:
Yikes - I see I hit a nerve with some of you. Sorry if what I wrote was hard to hear or offended you. Cognitive dissonance is always a difficult thing to recognize and harder still to overcome.

Just as a thought experiment then, maybe some could try the following:

Step 1: Imagine trying to study for a board exam while hospitalized yourself or with a first degree relative dying of COVID in the hospital
Step 2: Ask any minorities/under-represented physicians in your practice (if there are any) how many got COVID or had close family members die of COVID in last year and compare the average number reported by non-minorities
Step 3: Maybe realize that COVID didn't affect everyone equally this past year
Step 4: Maybe consider the possibility that fewer minorities will sit for/pass boards during a pandemic where, statistically speaking, they or their close relatives are more likely to get infected and/or die. The option of waiting an extra year to sit for boards is a tempting alternative but remember that this also carries significant consequences for many (can't get reimbursed by insurance, can't make partner, etc)

I would be happy to try any alternative thought experiments. I would legitimately like to be wrong about this since I too will have to exist within this system for the rest of my career. Like every system, it gets exactly the results it is designed to get.

Also, I seriously doubt the ABA will cease to exist or change its ways on the basis of a single internet post. So don't worry, I'm sure your collective futures and system are safe.

That said, thank you for responding. I will always respect someone else's right to a different opinion.
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If you can find the time to write this nonsense on SDN you can find the time to study....
 
dannyboy1 said:
Only color the board sees is green. Not sure why everyone is up in arms about the cost. My practice reimbursed me for it. Did nobody else get reimbursed?
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I did get reimbursed for it out of my CME money (I still don't know when I'm going to actually take it). But it's not like it's free money - it's $2400 I could have used for a conference, books, electronic equipment, etc.
 
This is bologna, please stop with the race thing.

While this exam is tough and stressful, I agree with the previous post that it made me a better anesthesiologist. But would never wanna go through that again 😛
 
DocVapor said:
I did get reimbursed for it out of my CME money (I still don't know when I'm going to actually take it). But it's not like it's free money - it's $2400 I could have used for a conference, books, electronic equipment, etc.
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My practice (an AMC) said that they reimburse all costs related to credentialing. Board certification is needed (eventually) to maintain credentials. I put in for it and got reimbursed. Was not taken out of my education account.
 
Exam is stupid and pointless. Plenty of good anesthesiologists fail the first time, plenty of awful ones pass the first time.
Only thing that makes you excellent is your personal dedication to your craft
 
AnonJKL123 said:
It's time for the ABA to be exposed as the source of systemic bias and institutional racism that it is. To think that exams administered this year (when minority/underprivileged groups have been much more likely to be personally affected by COVID) won't yield an unusually high percent of failures among minority/underprivileged candidates is absurd. The ABA should have cancelled the applied exam like the rest of the world but instead hid behind the tired "but it's for patient safety" excuse. Anyone who watched David Warner or Mark Keegan ramble on about "ensuring the virtual exam experience is just as robust as year's past" and/or the ABA's hideously smug "You Got This!" videos, knows that the ABA is about as expert on the topic of diversity and inclusion as a cardboard box.

For those who had their exams cancelled at the last minute this year, the ABA willfully created a special kind of hell within a hell. They couldn't cancel the exam outright as this would have created a nasty little control group which could then have been used to expose the subterfuge of board certification in general. Instead, they held held us hostage for over a year while they worked out a way to keep the charade going.

While some think this is about the money, I honestly don't think money matters much to a bunch of late career white guys... I think it's the easy access to funding, endless publications, and captive pool of research subjects that the ABA board doesn't want to give up. For a bunch of self-congratulatory know-it-alls, any threat to legacy will be fiercely opposed, no matter what the human cost.
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SaltyDog said:
Sounds like someone didn’t do so hot on their oral boards.
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The only thing Ive gathered from this thread is that only 25% of polled physicians believe oral boards should continue.
 
T-burglar said:
If the exam made you a better anesthesiologists then that’s only because it forced you to read something for once . (A big problem with doctors in general )
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I dunno about you but I read a **** load. Did so in college, med school, residency and fellowship.
 
I read a lot as well. Very few people near the top of their class got there by “not reading anything“.
To suggest that the only reason that the exam makes you better is because it “forced you to read something for once” is kind of something that a tool would say.
 
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TeslaCoil said:
I dunno about you but I read a **** load. Did so in college, med school, residency and fellowship.
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Blockit said:
I read a lot as well. Very few people near the top of their class got there by “not reading anything“.
To suggest that the only reason that the exam makes you better is because it “forced you to read something for once” is kind of something that a tool would say.
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dont think they meant everyone... there are definitely people who stop reading after residency, or barely even read in residency..
 
Im
Blockit said:
I read a lot as well. Very few people near the top of their class got there by “not reading anything“.
To suggest that the only reason that the exam makes you better is because it “forced you to read something for once” is kind of something that a tool would say.
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I’m not just suggesting it
 
T-burglar said:
If the exam made you a better anesthesiologists then that’s only because it forced you to read something for once . (A big problem with doctors in general )
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This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a while. I read a ton during residency and even got in the top 10% in all ITEs and both basic and advanced exams. I still think studying for the oral boards made me a better anesthesiologist. Anyone can pass a multiple choice exam... oral exam is entirely different. Your comment is obnoxious. In my experience, people who are against this exam (IMHO) are usually against it because they didn’t take it yet and are frustrated that they still have to study after residency. Almost everyone I’ve talked to after having taken it have agreed it was probably the most useful exam. Maybe the discussion should be is both a basic and advanced exam necessary? And can the oral boards be competed before finishing training. But to infer that people who benefited from the exam only because they hadn’t read before is *****ic... you are aware they must have passed the written before?
 
MikeMerk-MtS said:
This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a while. I read a ton during residency and even got in the top 10% in all ITEs and both basic and advanced exams. I still think studying for the oral boards made me a better anesthesiologist. Anyone can pass a multiple choice exam... oral exam is entirely different. Your comment is obnoxious. In my experience, people who are against this exam (IMHO) are usually against it because they didn’t take it yet and are frustrated that they still have to study after residency. Almost everyone I’ve talked to after having taken it have agreed it was probably the most useful exam. Maybe the discussion should be is both a basic and advanced exam necessary? And can the oral boards be competed before finishing training. But to infer that people who benefited from the exam only because they hadn’t read before is *****ic... you are aware they must have passed the written before?
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Actually, Im not mad that I still have to take it. Im mad that I cant take it until 2 years after finishing residency during this z**** pandemic, and I DONT EVEN DO OR ANESTHESIA! Im in pain medicine! Also the money grabs are definitely getting on my nerves. Basic-$800 Advanced-$800 Pain boards-$1800 Orals boards-$2400 Prep for oral boards- $2800. Im sorry but its ridiculous. Also why is the first time pass rate only 85%? You mean these greedy SOBs actually charge 15% of people $2400 TWICE? I wonder what percentage takes it THREE times. Ridiculous. When you combine the shakedown with the fact that I cant take the damn exam and move on with my life for another YEAR its absolutely stupid. And OSCE? Please with the Fuggin OSCE. What an insult.
 
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TeslaCoil said:
Actually, Im not mad that I still have to take it. Im mad that I cant take it until 2 years after finishing residency during this z**** pandemic, and I DONT EVEN DO OR ANESTHESIA! Im in pain medicine! Also the money grabs are definitely getting on my nerves. Basic-$800 Advanced-$800 Pain boards-$1200 Orals boards-$2400 Prep for oral boards- $2800. Im sorry but its ridiculous. Also why is the first time pass rate only 85%? You mean these greedy SOBs actually charge 15% of people $2400 TWICE? I wonder what percentage takes it THREE times. Ridiculous. When you combine the shakedown with the fact that I cant take the damn exam and move on with my life for another YEAR its absolutely stupid. And OSCE? Please with the Fuggin OSCE. What an insult.
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People pay for prep for oral boards?
 
T-burglar said:
Exam is stupid and pointless. Plenty of good anesthesiologists fail the first time, plenty of awful ones pass the first time.
Only thing that makes you excellent is your personal dedication to your craft
Click to expand...

The oral board isn't meant to test your knowledge. They could have made it into a Q and A session but the grab bag session is actually only a small part of thr scoring. The oral board is meant to test your adaptability, your ability to deal with stress, and your capacity to convey your thoughts into coherent words. Many people suck at communication. Book smarts isn't everything. Yes the oral boards are important. I don't know about thr osce though...
 
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TeslaCoil said:
Actually, Im not mad that I still have to take it. Im mad that I cant take it until 2 years after finishing residency during this z**** pandemic, and I DONT EVEN DO OR ANESTHESIA! Im in pain medicine! Also the money grabs are definitely getting on my nerves. Basic-$800 Advanced-$800 Pain boards-$1200 Orals boards-$2400 Prep for oral boards- $2800. Im sorry but its ridiculous. Also why is the first time pass rate only 85%? You mean these greedy SOBs actually charge 15% of people $2400 TWICE? I wonder what percentage takes it THREE times. Ridiculous. When you combine the shakedown with the fact that I cant take the damn exam and move on with my life for another YEAR its absolutely stupid. And OSCE? Please with the Fuggin OSCE. What an insult.
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Right, and I agree with the cost issue. But that has nothing to do with the validity of the test or its importance in training. Maybe it should be free... sure. But IMHO it's still a valid exam.
 
TeslaCoil said:
Actually, Im not mad that I still have to take it. Im mad that I cant take it until 2 years after finishing residency during this z**** pandemic, and I DONT EVEN DO OR ANESTHESIA! Im in pain medicine! Also the money grabs are definitely getting on my nerves. Basic-$800 Advanced-$800 Pain boards-$1200 Orals boards-$2400 Prep for oral boards- $2800. Im sorry but its ridiculous. Also why is the first time pass rate only 85%? You mean these greedy SOBs actually charge 15% of people $2400 TWICE? I wonder what percentage takes it THREE times. Ridiculous. When you combine the shakedown with the fact that I cant take the damn exam and move on with my life for another YEAR its absolutely stupid. And OSCE? Please with the Fuggin OSCE. What an insult.
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So you graduated residency in 2020, signed up for the oral boards last year and paid but can't take it until 2022?
 
coffeebythelake said:
The oral board isn't meant to test your knowledge. They could have made it into a Q and A session but the grab bag session is actually only a small part of thr scoring. The oral board is meant to test your adaptability, your ability to deal with stress, and your capacity to convey your thoughts into coherent words. Many people suck at communication. Book smarts isn't everything. Yes the oral boards are important. I don't know about thr osce though...
Click to expand...
No it isn’t, it’s a cram and spew exam just in oral format . If you can’t communicate enough to pass about a certain point it’s because you either didn’t cover it or can’t remember the necessary knowledge .
 
GassYous said:
So you graduated residency in 2020, signed up for the oral boards last year and paid but can't take it until 2022?
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Correct. I still dont even have a date. My friend is a second year pain attending and he is finally just now taking his oral boards. I’ll be writing pain boards well before and they wont release my pain board score until after I pass oral boards. Pretty sure this is the mess everyone is in for 2020-2021.
 
T-burglar said:
No it isn’t, it’s a cram and spew exam just in oral format . If you can’t communicate enough to pass about a certain point it’s because you either didn’t cover it or can’t remember the necessary knowledge .
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Eh. There is no cramming needed. The concepts are basic. Way way less knowledge tested compared to the written board
 
TeslaCoil said:
Correct. I still dont even have a date. My friend is a second year pain attending and he is finally just now taking his oral boards. I’ll be writing pain boards well before and they wont release my pain board score until after I pass oral boards. Pretty sure this is the mess everyone is in for 2020-2021.
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I called the ABA and most likely we will be taking it between July - October of this year via zoom (again not confirmed). I just hope they don't schedule so close to the pain boards in September but that can very well happen. Studying for both is hard but I would recommend to start early and just get both test over with.
 
AnonJKL123 said:
It's time for the ABA to be exposed as the source of systemic bias and institutional racism that it is. To think that exams administered this year (when minority/underprivileged groups have been much more likely to be personally affected by COVID) won't yield an unusually high percent of failures among minority/underprivileged candidates is absurd. The ABA should have cancelled the applied exam like the rest of the world but instead hid behind the tired "but it's for patient safety" excuse. Anyone who watched David Warner or Mark Keegan ramble on about "ensuring the virtual exam experience is just as robust as year's past" and/or the ABA's hideously smug "You Got This!" videos, knows that the ABA is about as expert on the topic of diversity and inclusion as a cardboard box.

For those who had their exams cancelled at the last minute this year, the ABA willfully created a special kind of hell within a hell. They couldn't cancel the exam outright as this would have created a nasty little control group which could then have been used to expose the subterfuge of board certification in general. Instead, they held held us hostage for over a year while they worked out a way to keep the charade going.

While some think this is about the money, I honestly don't think money matters much to a bunch of late career white guys... I think it's the easy access to funding, endless publications, and captive pool of research subjects that the ABA board doesn't want to give up. For a bunch of self-congratulatory know-it-alls, any threat to legacy will be fiercely opposed, no matter what the human cost.
Click to expand...
Dude or duddette, this is America. Every institution at the top is full of a bunch of late career White guys who CARE a s hit TON about money. That’s how this country was built.
The bias is there for sure in every field. These people aren’t thinking of how minorities could possibly be affected more, they are thinking about making MONEY. Maybe you need to send them a letter explaining to them how you think minority physicians are suffering more and won’t likely do as well as before and see what happens. Likely nothing. I for one haven’t thought about it and I am a minority physcian but am not at all involved in academics.
I don’t want to call it institutional racism as much as lack of foresight on how this is affecting new grads.
Whatever the case, it needs to go.
 
Justice4all said:
Mine was 3WM and one Asian female. Last thing on my mind was the composition of the examiners. It was just another obstacle to being finished with all the exams since MCAT.
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I had a black and white one. Was excited but apprehensive about the black one because they can often be the toughest to their own. Not out of meanness but necessity.
 
coffeebythelake said:
Eh. There is no cramming needed. The concepts are basic. Way way less knowledge tested compared to the written board
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I'm quoting this because it was bumped. This is absolutely correct. The exam covers the basics, even the basics of the specialties. Orals are more a "communications exam" than anything and quite honestly that's what the Ho course teaches you to do. Everyone on here knows how to approach and treat most situations, but the examiners want you to be able to communicate it clearly like a person with MD after their name.

I'm not opposed to it as it further legitimizes the field against all the "wannabes" but I do agree that it can be conducted in a better way in this here 21st century, ie virtually, etc. Same with all the other exams/recertifications we waste money on.
 
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I feel like oral boards are a right of passage. A miserable expensive right of passage.
 
I had to go through it so everyone else should have to too. The nightmares finally stopped after I found out I passed.
 
I think oral boards are great for proving that someone can calmly and logically explain the reasoning behind their anesthetic plans and how they would deal with complications as they arise. Written boards are just the last in a long line of standardized multiple choice tests we started in undergrad. Oral boards are a unique and valuable tool to ensure that board certified anesthesiologists are more than just someone that can pick the correct answer on a multiple choice test.

I personally spent far less time studying for oral boards than I did for written boards. Oral boards are more about just being able to explain your logic, not cramming every single piece of trivia into your head.
 
CRNAs don’t take oral boards so why should we? Right?

If it wasn’t for the oral boards, I would never have had the chance to have….er ummm…stimulating shop talk with Kevin Tremper and Warren Zapol😉
 
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The vast majority of specialties which still have oral boards are those that are highly specialized and/or have significant acuity. I don’t think it behooves us to remove anesthesiology from the “life or limb” decision-making group and throw us in with the “let me titrate your outpatient norvasc from 5 to 10” group.
 
vector2 said:
The vast majority of specialties which still have oral boards are those that are highly specialized and/or have significant acuity. I don’t think it behooves us to remove anesthesiology from the “life or limb” decision-making group and throw us in with the “let me titrate your outpatient norvasc from 5 to 10” group.
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No problem, then remove the osce and cut the price in half. OSCE is 100% useless in my eyes.
 
nimbus said:
CRNAs don’t take oral boards so why should we? Right?

If it wasn’t for the oral boards, I would never have had the chance to have….er ummm…stimulating shop talk with Kevin Tremper and Warren Zapol😉
Click to expand...

Ha

I interviewed with Kevin Tremper. Good guy.
 
TeslaCoil said:
No problem, then remove the osce and cut the price in half. OSCE is 100% useless in my eyes.
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No argument there. But I think first the ACGME has to do their job and prevent all these HCA style non academic residencies from popping up. If there were better standardization in the quality of training programs/ case logs, the osce would be superfluous.
 
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