Oral Boards Should Die

[TeslaCoil]

Im just going to say it. Given the current state of affairs, and trends among other specialties, the anesthesia oral boards need to go away. Forever. Id rather give that money to the PAC. Just sayin.

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[deleted162650]

Sounds like someone didn’t do so hot on their oral boards.

 

[anbuitachi]

completely agree. id rather donate 3000$ to pac. support our cause. than be doing osce exams,

 

[anbuitachi]

also i think if it is to continue. it should be virtual forever. no reason to go to NC, especially for west coast people. messed up time zone, take multiple days off, and down 1000$ for flight/hotel. not worth

 

[TeslaCoil]

Sounds like someone didn’t do so hot on their oral boards.

I havent taken them and they're telling me it may be a year or two.... F that.

 

[linkin06]

I see value in oral boards, I see no value in OSCE

 

[GassYous]

They just canceled step 2 cs. Worthless exam, I already know how to wash my hands and speak English.

 

[anbuitachi]

Rather they make soe 2400 and be done with it. 4 hrs is too much. and to think they want to keep adding onto the OSCE... just look at their plans. something new every year in 2021/2022

 

[fittipaldi1of1]

I havent taken them and they're telling me it may be a year or two.... F that.

Did you graduate 2020? I’m waiting for my date..

 

[Katheudontas parateroumen]

It would be an absolute miracle if they decided to forgo the SOE. Would be so great. I assume they are just stamping approval for those people that just guinea pig the online format this past months or so.

 

[zizzer]

The oral board exam feels like the most useful exam to evaluate somebody out of any I've ever taken in my life. It seems hard, and I'm not excited about it, but it is definitely more useful to evaluate who can safely anesthetize patients than any other evaluation I can think of.

 

[anbuitachi]

The oral board exam feels like the most useful exam to evaluate somebody out of any I've ever taken in my life. It seems hard, and I'm not excited about it, but it is definitely more useful to evaluate who can safely anesthetize patients than any other evaluation I can think of.

this is true. need to 100% get rid of basic (just a money grab), and get rid of OSCE. are there ANY other specialties with a four part board exam?

 

[dannyboy1]

The oral board exam feels like the most useful exam to evaluate somebody out of any I've ever taken in my life. It seems hard, and I'm not excited about it, but it is definitely more useful to evaluate who can safely anesthetize patients than any other evaluation I can think of.

Yes. But everyone who is taking these exams have already been giving anesthesia independently for at least 1 year. Strange to “evaluate” at this point. But $$$$....

 

[anbuitachi]

Yes. But everyone who is taking these exams have already been giving anesthesia independently for at least 1 year. Strange to “evaluate” at this point. But $$$$....

well yea, and many people practice entire life without board certification =\
i know a few who trained abroad (europe etc), who did fellowship and stuff here, but are not allowed to take the board exam here bc didnt do residency... they are mostly pretty competent from my experience

 

[chocomorsel]

The oral board exam feels like the most useful exam to evaluate somebody out of any I've ever taken in my life. It seems hard, and I'm not excited about it, but it is definitely more useful to evaluate who can safely anesthetize patients than any other evaluation I can think of.

I have situational/public speaking anxiety and quite frankly I am surprised I passed it.
I failed the OSCE in medical school twice but have never had problems with written exams.
So I disagree that it "feels like the most useful exam to evaluate somebody of any" as I suspect there are plenty of people like me who get nervous and can't articulate in front of an audience, but know their stuff and work just fine otherwise.
This kind of profession probably has tons of people like that.

I just found out my old school buddy has been practicing almost ten years without board certification. Interesting.

 

[GassYous]

It is a money grab and becomes meaningless as it is basically mandatory and mid level providers steal our terminology to describe their educational journey. "Dr. Sharon DNP CRNA is a board certified, fellowship trained nurse anesthesiologist blah blah blah". Although their "board certification" is a joke, their "doctorate" is a kumbaya circle of feelings and their "fellowship" is a weekend course taught by other clueless mid levels.

 

[secretasianman]

I actually think there is tremendous value in the oral boards for developing communication skills and clinical judgement. We are physicians. Just because the other professions keep lowering the bar of admission doesn’t mean we should.

 

[Ronin786]

Completely disagree. OSCE deserves to be thrown off a cliff, but the oral boards are definitely worth more than all the BS standardized tests they make us go through.

 

[pgg]

Every OSCE that I've ever done in my life seemed arbitrary, artifical, and silly - even by the low expectations I have for simulations in general. At least with sims there's some feedback and self improvement to be had. An OSCE is all the lameness of a sim with none of the upside, plus potential negative consequences for a career.

That said, I think there's value to the oral boards. They should stay.

 

[Katheudontas parateroumen]

Oral boards makes sense as the best way to assess competency. An impartial expert in the field with the least amount of bias possible is able to probe and test the decision making of someone. However, like others have said, there is definite performance anxiety with these things. I do think a combination of oral boards and multiple choice makes sense. Maybe as combined score with equal weight. The basic exam is totally worthless for sure. The osce sounds incredibly dumb. “Speak to a surgeon about cancelling a case”. Like seriously? So dumb. Does any other specialty have stuff like this???

 

[bigdan]

I thought (and continue to think) there is tremendous value in oral board examination, especially if we consider that until that point, all we have to do get through the certification pathway is guess the right answer among a multitude of options presented to us, vis-a-vis multiple choice testing.

It could be worse: my wife did Ob/Gyn training & certification (which includes oral boards examination) followed by REI training & certification (which includes oral boards examination). Imagine if our fellowships required oral boards...is there a "shoot myself in the head" emoji?

 

[Thepassageofgas]

IMHO: oral boards great for scenarios where you don’t have time to think (codes, airway emergencies, etc). However, i do think it’s odd to include more-obscure pathology (if i don’t treat kids routinely, why do i need to have all the types of TEFs memorized?)...if you did wind up in a case like that, you’d look it up. I don’t think there’s any shame in that.

 

[pgg]

It could be worse: my wife did Ob/Gyn training & certification (which includes oral boards examination) followed by REI training & certification (which includes oral boards examination). Imagine if our fellowships required oral boards...is there a "shoot myself in the head" emoji?

Surgical oral boards are a different animal. If we spent a year collecting cases we had to present and defend to some examiners over the course of several hours, that would be painful ... and valuable. Cost and manpower to do that for the massive unwashed hordes of new anesthesiologists every year makes that impossible though.

 

[anbuitachi]

Surgical oral boards are a different animal. If we spent a year collecting cases we had to present and defend to some examiners over the course of several hours, that would be painful ... and valuable. Cost and manpower to do that for the massive unwashed hordes of new anesthesiologists every year makes that impossible though.

what if we do cataracts all day and only cataracts. fun oral boards??

itd be funny if they have osce on surgery oral boards and the scenario is talk to anesthesiologist who wants to cancel your case

 

[chocomorsel]

I thought (and continue to think) there is tremendous value in oral board examination, especially if we consider that until that point, all we have to do get through the certification pathway is guess the right answer among a multitude of options presented to us, vis-a-vis multiple choice testing.

It could be worse: my wife did Ob/Gyn training & certification (which includes oral boards examination) followed by REI training & certification (which includes oral boards examination). Imagine if our fellowships required oral boards...is there a "shoot myself in the head" emoji?

They could change it to fill in the blank or answer in written form what you would do kind of questioning. So as to make it tougher and not multiple choice.
Would much rather have that than orals.

 

[chocomorsel]

Im just going to say it. Given the current state of affairs, and trends among other specialties, the anesthesia oral boards need to go away. Forever. Id rather give that money to the PAC. Just sayin.

Why can’t they do this via zoom or something. In a testing center of some sort.

 

[chocomorsel]

Surgical oral boards are a different animal. If we spent a year collecting cases we had to present and defend to some examiners over the course of several hours, that would be painful ... and valuable. Cost and manpower to do that for the massive unwashed hordes of new anesthesiologists every year makes that impossible though.

WTH does that even mean?
LMAO
Is that how they do their cases? They collect them and present them? I thought they just collected them to show that they are doing well rounded cases.

 

[abolt18]

WTH does that even mean?
LMAO
Is that how they do their cases? They collect them and present them? I thought they just collected them to show that they are doing well rounded cases.

I believe they submit a list of their cases and the board selects a certain amount of cases they want to review. The surgeon then has to gather all the info about those cases to review. They then have to sit and discuss the selected cases in detail and defend their choices. Maybe I'm wrong but that was my understanding.

 

[vector2]

I think they still have to submit case logs but I don’t think their cases are used for their orals anymore

 

[abolt18]

I think they still have to submit case logs but I don’t think their cases are used for their orals anymore

View attachment 329266

Indeed.

Appears ortho still does it the old way.

"Case Lists | ABOS" Case Lists | ABOS

 

[Drwine]

IMHO oral boards are still relevant and should be the last exam we take. MOCA is just a way for those in academia to create an annuity. Passing them demonstrates a thought process and ability to explain it that will be used throughout your career. I joke that I pass my oral exam in my practice at least weekly.

 

[TeslaCoil]

Okay. To everyone who thinks oral boards aren't a money grab, think about $20 million per year in revenue. They are most definitely a money grab. I agree the oral part is a “valid” exam, but the pandemic and the backup it has caused, as well as the fact that other specialties are trending away from oral boards makes me frustrated as a constipated $hit that they’re still torturing us with this nonsense.

 

[pgg]

I confess a little pandemic schadenfreude to see that beautiful new ABA facility sit idle. Wonder what the lease payment is on all that space and OSCE equipment.

 

[vector2]

I confess a little pandemic schadenfreude to see that beautiful new ABA facility sit idle. Wonder what the lease payment is on all that space and OSCE equipment.

Lol, I'm pretty sure the ABA is gonna find a way for you and me and every other diplomate to somehow eat their pandemic losses...

 

[MirrorTodd]

Lol, I'm pretty sure the ABA is gonna find a way for you and me and every other diplomate to somehow eat their pandemic losses...

How much of the ppp loan money did they get last year?

 

[pgg]

Lol, I'm pretty sure the ABA is gonna find a way for you and me and every other diplomate to somehow eat their pandemic losses...

You're surely right. I just gave them money for another year of MOCA last week.

 

[AnonJKL123]

It's time for the ABA to be exposed as the source of systemic bias and institutional racism that it is. To think that exams administered this year (when minority/underprivileged groups have been much more likely to be personally affected by COVID) won't yield an unusually high percent of failures among minority/underprivileged candidates is absurd. The ABA should have cancelled the applied exam like the rest of the world but instead hid behind the tired "but it's for patient safety" excuse. Anyone who watched David Warner or Mark Keegan ramble on about "ensuring the virtual exam experience is just as robust as year's past" and/or the ABA's hideously smug "You Got This!" videos, knows that the ABA is about as expert on the topic of diversity and inclusion as a cardboard box.

For those who had their exams cancelled at the last minute this year, the ABA willfully created a special kind of hell within a hell. They couldn't cancel the exam outright as this would have created a nasty little control group which could then have been used to expose the subterfuge of board certification in general. Instead, they held held us hostage for over a year while they worked out a way to keep the charade going.

While some think this is about the money, I honestly don't think money matters much to a bunch of late career white guys... I think it's the easy access to funding, endless publications, and captive pool of research subjects that the ABA board doesn't want to give up. For a bunch of self-congratulatory know-it-alls, any threat to legacy will be fiercely opposed, no matter what the human cost.

 

[Urzuz]

It's time for the ABA to be exposed as the source of systemic bias and institutional racism that it is. To think that exams administered this year (when minority/underprivileged groups have been much more likely to be personally affected by COVID) won't yield an unusually high percent of failures among minority/underprivileged candidates is absurd. The ABA should have cancelled the applied exam like the rest of the world but instead hid behind the tired "but it's for patient safety" excuse. Anyone who watched David Warner or Mark Keegan ramble on about "ensuring the virtual exam experience is just as robust as year's past" and/or the ABA's hideously smug "You Got This!" videos, knows that the ABA is about as expert on the topic of diversity and inclusion as a cardboard box.

For those who had their exams cancelled at the last minute this year, the ABA willfully created a special kind of hell within a hell. They couldn't cancel the exam outright as this would have created a nasty little control group which could then have been used to expose the subterfuge of board certification in general. Instead, they held held us hostage for over a year while they worked out a way to keep the charade going.

While some think this is about the money, I honestly don't think money matters much to a bunch of late career white guys... I think it's the easy access to funding, endless publications, and captive pool of research subjects that the ABA board doesn't want to give up. For a bunch of self-congratulatory know-it-alls, any threat to legacy will be fiercely opposed, no matter what the human cost.

it’s ridiculous rants like this that lead to people not taking actual examples of institutional racism and bias seriously.

It’s a money grab, plain and simple. Don’t make it something it’s not.

 

[ChiDO]

Ortho boards are case defense. Submit cases during a specific time period. MDs 6 month window, DOs 2 year window.

Most MDs will avoid outlier cases or avoid doing anything controversial in that window.

The board chooses 20 cases, then on ten of them you have to defend your choices, support with literature, and answer questions.

At least it's cases you already did 🤷

 

[Justice4all]

Agree with urzuz. Money grab but the cases are not foreign. With close to 90% pass rate on first attempt, the cases should be able to be defended by any anesthesiologist.

 

[Blockit]

My opinion may be unpopular, as I took and passed the oral boards 16 years ago. I was profoundly apprehensive and nervous prior to it, I took it very seriously. And yes I had to fly to Florida from the upper Midwest for one day to do it. I had a total of four examiners, and one of them was a complete tool.
however, what I can say is that the process of studying for the exam and drilling into my head the right things to do for various situation made me a better anesthesiologist. I was never smarter as an anesthesiologist and the intellectual side of it than the week after my oral boards 😁
Since then I’ve acquired a vast amount of experience and additional knowledge, but I still look back on the oral boards as something that I’m glad that I did.

 

[abolt18]

It's time for the ABA to be exposed as the source of systemic bias and institutional racism that it is. To think that exams administered this year (when minority/underprivileged groups have been much more likely to be personally affected by COVID) won't yield an unusually high percent of failures among minority/underprivileged candidates is absurd. The ABA should have cancelled the applied exam like the rest of the world but instead hid behind the tired "but it's for patient safety" excuse. Anyone who watched David Warner or Mark Keegan ramble on about "ensuring the virtual exam experience is just as robust as year's past" and/or the ABA's hideously smug "You Got This!" videos, knows that the ABA is about as expert on the topic of diversity and inclusion as a cardboard box.

For those who had their exams cancelled at the last minute this year, the ABA willfully created a special kind of hell within a hell. They couldn't cancel the exam outright as this would have created a nasty little control group which could then have been used to expose the subterfuge of board certification in general. Instead, they held held us hostage for over a year while they worked out a way to keep the charade going.

While some think this is about the money, I honestly don't think money matters much to a bunch of late career white guys... I think it's the easy access to funding, endless publications, and captive pool of research subjects that the ABA board doesn't want to give up. For a bunch of self-congratulatory know-it-alls, any threat to legacy will be fiercely opposed, no matter what the human cost.

Pretty strong allegations. Anything to back them up?

 

[anbuitachi]

@AnonJKL123
to be fair, on my exam, i had 3 examiners. one white, one asian, one black... at least they have diversity. or maybe it was just me

 

[Justice4all]

Mine was 3WM and one Asian female. Last thing on my mind was the composition of the examiners. It was just another obstacle to being finished with all the exams since MCAT.

 

[GassYous]

It's time for the ABA to be exposed as the source of systemic bias and institutional racism that it is. To think that exams administered this year (when minority/underprivileged groups have been much more likely to be personally affected by COVID) won't yield an unusually high percent of failures among minority/underprivileged candidates is absurd. The ABA should have cancelled the applied exam like the rest of the world but instead hid behind the tired "but it's for patient safety" excuse. Anyone who watched David Warner or Mark Keegan ramble on about "ensuring the virtual exam experience is just as robust as year's past" and/or the ABA's hideously smug "You Got This!" videos, knows that the ABA is about as expert on the topic of diversity and inclusion as a cardboard box.

For those who had their exams cancelled at the last minute this year, the ABA willfully created a special kind of hell within a hell. They couldn't cancel the exam outright as this would have created a nasty little control group which could then have been used to expose the subterfuge of board certification in general. Instead, they held held us hostage for over a year while they worked out a way to keep the charade going.

While some think this is about the money, I honestly don't think money matters much to a bunch of late career white guys... I think it's the easy access to funding, endless publications, and captive pool of research subjects that the ABA board doesn't want to give up. For a bunch of self-congratulatory know-it-alls, any threat to legacy will be fiercely opposed, no matter what the human cost.

wtf is this craziness
This is like cancel eminem level crazy

 

[AnonJKL123]

Pretty strong allegations. Anything to back them up?

Yikes - I see I hit a nerve with some of you. Sorry if what I wrote was hard to hear or offended you. Cognitive dissonance is always a difficult thing to recognize and harder still to overcome.

Just as a thought experiment then, maybe some could try the following:

Step 1: Imagine trying to study for a board exam while hospitalized yourself or with a first degree relative dying of COVID in the hospital
Step 2: Ask any minorities/under-represented physicians in your practice (if there are any) how many got COVID or had close family members die of COVID in last year and compare the average number reported by non-minorities
Step 3: Maybe realize that COVID didn't affect everyone equally this past year
Step 4: Maybe consider the possibility that fewer minorities will sit for/pass boards during a pandemic where, statistically speaking, they or their close relatives are more likely to get infected and/or die. The option of waiting an extra year to sit for boards is a tempting alternative but remember that this also carries significant consequences for many (can't get reimbursed by insurance, can't make partner, etc)

I would be happy to try any alternative thought experiments. I would legitimately like to be wrong about this since I too will have to exist within this system for the rest of my career. Like every system, it gets exactly the results it is designed to get.

Also, I seriously doubt the ABA will cease to exist or change its ways on the basis of a single internet post. So don't worry, I'm sure your collective futures and system are safe.

That said, thank you for responding. I will always respect someone else's right to a different opinion.

 

[GassYous]

Who are you even? Why are you ruining this thread with your agenda?

 

[AnonJKL123]

Who are you even? Why are you ruining this thread with your agenda?

Not my intention. Happy to leave and let the discussion proceed in a different direction.

 

[woopedazz]

Not my intention. Happy to leave and let the discussion proceed in a different direction.

Brah, you entered with a rant about how exams/those who administer them are racist. Strong agenda.

I reckon the powers that be look fondly upon all examinees as the colourless cash cows we are.

 

[abolt18]

Yikes - I see I hit a nerve with some of you. Sorry if what I wrote was hard to hear or offended you. Cognitive dissonance is always a difficult thing to recognize and harder still to overcome.

Just as a thought experiment then, maybe some could try the following:

Step 1: Imagine trying to study for a board exam while hospitalized yourself or with a first degree relative dying of COVID in the hospital
Step 2: Ask any minorities/under-represented physicians in your practice (if there are any) how many got COVID or had close family members die of COVID in last year and compare the average number reported by non-minorities
Step 3: Maybe realize that COVID didn't affect everyone equally this past year
Step 4: Maybe consider the possibility that fewer minorities will sit for/pass boards during a pandemic where, statistically speaking, they or their close relatives are more likely to get infected and/or die. The option of waiting an extra year to sit for boards is a tempting alternative but remember that this also carries significant consequences for many (can't get reimbursed by insurance, can't make partner, etc)

I would be happy to try any alternative thought experiments. I would legitimately like to be wrong about this since I too will have to exist within this system for the rest of my career. Like every system, it gets exactly the results it is designed to get.

Also, I seriously doubt the ABA will cease to exist or change its ways on the basis of a single internet post. So don't worry, I'm sure your collective futures and system are safe.

That said, thank you for responding. I will always respect someone else's right to a different opinion.

I was only asking if you have any ACTUAL of evidence to support these claims?

I'm trying to read your post and understand it carefully. But my impression is that you are stating that the institution and examiners are racist because... They are asking everyone to take the test despite the pandemic regardless of race or gender. Right?

Is there any evidence of a higher failure rate amongst minorities since this pandemic started?