Organic Chemistry...Ouch!

[tristan]

Ouch....this was the class(organic II...spring 2002) that i studied like hell...i stayed up many nights and ended up getting an A which shocked me because i was aiming for a C only. I hated my lab professor because he would leave us alone most of the time..and we were pretty much clueless at all the times depsite copying pre-lab from previous semesters(don't tell me you didn't do this because you would be lying)I still have nightmaresp ) and it is why i am creating this thread. Alot of my classmates flunked(this one girl attached an 1-hour long audio during evaluations...i think she was flunking from the begining).

------Can you guys share your experiences?
----- Do we really need ethers, spectras, amines and so in pharmacy?
-----Is there more general chemisty material or organic material in phamarcy school?


trist

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[Brill]

I always hear bad things about organic chemistry, but I actually found it to be fairly easy. I think this can mainly be attributed to the fact that I had a great professor.

 

[dgroulx]

I'm in Organic II right now and I do not enjoy it. Synthesis is kind of fun, but I hate drawing mechanisms. I also get different reactions mixed up at times, forget which solvent goes with what, etc. I have my second exam tomorrow, but haven't had much study time. All told, I have 3 exams this week and 2 more tomorrow. Next week is spring break and I am ready for it. I get to relax and write two research papers.

 

[Triangulation]

Yeah I'm with Brill. I effin' love o-chem. Once it clicks everything makes sense (basically once you've got a firm grasp of nucleophilic attack everything starts falling into place and it becomes pretty fun.) I honestly think it would be the best class for a student of any major to take. It requires that you consider options that initially don't make sense. It really engenders outside-the-box thinking, at least I think.

You might as well like it too, bc you're gonna see plenty of it in pharm school

As far as 'will we need it' i worked at a pharmaceutical for a summer and all of our QC analysis was done with IR and NMR.

The lab techniques come up a lot in indurstry (HPLC, GC, etc)

 

[dgroulx]

Originally posted by Triangulation


You might as well like it too, bc you're gonna see plenty of it in pharm school

During my interview at Florida, they told me I would not see any more organic chemistry in pharm school. At least, not multi-step synthesis. I can see using IR and NMR, but those are a piece of cake. It's just data analysis, not blatant memorization (which I hate).

 

[Triangulation]

I guess schools do it different ways. UCSF pharm students have told me that you can expect to see plenty of it. My personal opinion is you should see plenty of it considering the field we're going into. A lot of drug mechanics are variations on o-chem principles that you're gonna need to go over again.

Not to say that if you don't like o-chem you're toast. I just think that it's a very necessary component and that it'd be nice if you liked the concepts. We'll find out soon.

 

[Nocsag56]

I hated O.Chem at first because it baffled me. But once I became comfortable with the various functional group (ethers, esters, cooh's and oh's) and finally caught onto the Sub/Elim rxns -- it made the rest digestable.

My advice for anyone who is struggling or will struggle thru it -- don't get discouraged. Plough through that sucker. (It could be worse = It could be P.Chem)

Will we need it in the future?

More immediately - likely yes if the school (ie: UCSF) curriculum involves taking another O. Chem course.

In general - likely yes -- since we are in the business of knowing drugs. Knowing general molecularity and active sites might make it all the more interesting when you learn those top 200 drugs.

Cheers.
-nocsag56

 

[tristan]

What do you mean by "those top 200 drugs".

Are you say saying that during pharmacy school, students must memorize the mechanism, synthesis, structure, chem/physical properties of the top 200 drugs available in the market?

 

[dgroulx]

I suppose it depends on the program. The schools I've applied to have more biochemistry than organic. Also, I thought there would be a lot more general chemistry, than organic. Things like rate laws, calculating metabolic rates for drug dosages and compounding all draw from general chemistry.

If I was going to manufacture drugs, then I could see the need for more organic. I'm taking biochemistry right now and it has some organic basics like functional groups and neucleophillic attacks, but none of the memorizing of reactants. Instead, I memorize enzymes.

 

[LSUMED2006]

Where I attended pharmacy school, we had 1 semester of intense biochem and 4 semesters of organic medicinal chemistry. While we did relatively little actual synthesis reactions, a strong understanding of organic chemistry was a must. I must say, the professor who taught 2 1/2 semesters of the courses was truly the best teacher, displaying the most mastery of a subject, I have ever seen. (The man would enter class with only a box of chalk, no notes, and proceed to draw from memory every structre of every drug he mentioned and describe the SARs of the drugs in the most orderly fassion I could ever imagine. I do think that without much trouble he could draw the structure of basically ANY drug one could imagine and proceed to discuss the mechanism of action along with the SAR.)

These OMC classes enable pharmacists to have an understanding of the true mechanisms of drugs and be exposed to material concerning them that NO other health professional has been exposed to (MDs included). Drugs are simply no longer a block on a 2-d diagram binding to a receptor. They become 3d structures; one no longer views morphine as a square binding to a mu receptor. One can now see where and what type of interactions it has with the mu subtypes as well as would be able to predict what effect altering the binding sites would have on the potency of the drug.

Organic chemistry is tough for most people, and so is OMC. However, they are not usually taught in the same manner. Organic simply provides a necessary foundation to begin to understand drugs on a molecular level. It certainly is not easy being forced to recognize/memorize (at least for the test!) the structure of hundreds of drugs; however, IMHO it is one of the most satisfying courses in pharmacy school. Understanding the WHY of drug pharmacology makes learning the pharmacology of the top 200 drugs MUCH easier.

To answer your other question, there is a good bit of general chemistry as well as pchem (refering to the kinetics and such) in the various kinetics classes you will take in pharmacy school.

Hope this helps.
Jason

 

[dgroulx]

Thanks, Jason. That helps a lot. I made an A in Organic I and will probably make an A in Organic II. I understand it and am good at it. I just don't care for it as much as general chemistry.

 

[Nasim288]

I am applying to Pharm school and expect to attend in the fall of 2004. I already have a BS in Biology with an overall GPA of 3.11 and a transfer GPA of 3.68. I took OChem I and II and received C's in both classes and A's in the labs. It wasn't that I didn't get it, I was working a ton and had financial trouble on my mind my last 2 years of college. (Filed for bankruptcy) I feel that I have a good grasp of the subject but I am unable to retake the classes due to my current career. I travel a great deal and work 14 hours a day and often work weekends. With all this said, do I have a good shot of getting in to Pharm school and how will they look at my OChem grades?

I do have a year and few months of clinical and DNA research experience as well as 4 years of experience as an EMT when I was much younger. I have switched careers and now work in the technology industry, for the money, but feel a calling back to the medical field. Should I even waste my time applying? I plan to apply to 2 schools, MCP in Boston I believe and UOP because of the 3 year programs and my age: 29.

 

[LSUMED2006]

I definitely don't think that you have hurt your chances of entering pharmacy school. If it is brought up, simply explain your situation concerning the C's in organic. You have a very strong back ground (research, emt, etc.), and this will certainly make your a desireable canidate.

Jason

 

[phar]

Nasim288
-I think you have a good chance of getting accepted. Organic chemistry is a "weed out" class, getting a C in the class is a job well done. Plus, your degree will be very helpful. Why did you file for bankruptcy? Most professionals jobs, pharmacy, medicine and so on...do look at your credit report before they hire you.

 

[Triangulation]

Hey Nasim. Puyallup, huh? I went to U-Dub for undergrad, Seattle rocks!!!

I agree with the others. You've still got a great chance. Try and beef up your CV with pharmacy volunteer work, and if you can find a night class that fits the pre-reqs you might want to take it, so you can demonstrate that you can handle coursework now.

Good luck.

 

[Nasim288]

Thanks to all for the replies and the information. To PHAR, I know that employers check a persons credit report prior to hiring but I have gotten past that before. Currently, I work for the number 1 consulting firm in the world, Accenture, and I worked around the credit check. Besides, an employer cannot deny employment due to bad credit, only conditionally employ a person and conduct a 6 month to one year probation period.

Secondly, Triangulation, I am originally from Vallejo, CA and yes the Pacific Northwest is ok. From your experience in this pharmacy thing, how expensive is it to live in San Francisco and go to school there? It has been a while since I lived in HP, hunter's point, and jack london square in Oakland as well as the Crest in Vallejo and I don't remember how expensive it was. I know California is crazy priced but it has been 16 years since I lived there and at 15, you never know how much everything really is: rent, food, etc.

Thanks for the replies you guys.