orgo-what is it exactly?

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Nvr Ending Jrny

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Ok so im in chem 101 right now (2nd year ugrad....decided to go premed before this semesteR). so far it's not bad at all and I assume it will become much harder later this semester and in chem 102. my question is about orgo. what do you cover in orgo? what makes it so difficult for lots of people? if you get a B in chem 101 or 102 does that most likely mean you have no chance at an A in orgo (Assuming u tried your hardest in both)? What about the lab? Is orgo lab difficult compared to chem lab?

basically a general picture on orgo/orgo lab is what i'm looking for.

p.s.- i plan to take chem 102 over the summer.

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Orgo is a lot of information pushed into a really small time span. It'll probably the first course like it for you, which is why a lot of people have trouble with it. From a chemistry perspective, difficulty in general chem is not an indicator of how good you are at orgo. Two completely different sets of concepts between more mathematical and physical chemisry to more organic chemistry.
 
Organic is nothing like Gen Chem. It is based on Molecular Orbital Theory, and like everything else, kinetics and thermodynamics. It is an extremely conceptual course that requires some minor memorization. If you do bad in gen chem you can ace orgo...I have friends that got C's in gen. chem. and A's in organic.. It is a totally different way of thinking. I would not stress about organic...i found it extremely easy (it is not a blowoff here either) and I am no Einstien!



Anymore questions feel free to IM me at AIM SN Rocpen321.


Best,

Rocco
 
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Organic is the chemistry of carbon-containing molecules (alcohols and such)

The two are really completely different. Inorganic or General or whatever most of you guys take is more mathematically-based. Organic is more concept/memorization as you have to work through reaction mechanisms by showing how reactants exchange electrons with other molecules.

An example would be a Grignard-type reaction, where an organometallic compound extends the carbon chain on an aldeyde. You would be expected to know the products, reagents, and mechanism for most of these reactions.

It really is a pain, but not really that difficult.
 
Within General Chemistry, there is a mixture of concepts and rote memorization.

However, with O-Chem, it is like memorizing a cookbook; literally.
 
Nvr Ending Jrny,

The strict definition of organic chemistry is the chemistry of compounds containing carbon. Carbon is nifty because it can make four nice neat little bonds to things. (sp3!) This allows to you make huge molecules with it, like plastics and persons.

If you are in Chem 101 right now, you are probably covering some concepts that will be very useful to you in understanding organic chemistry. Though they are usually taught as very different sorts of classes, they are both chemistry classes, and hence not as mutually exclusive as they are often made out to be, in my opinion.

I am in the second semester of Organic right now, so I am not the ultimate authority, but I think I've isolated a few reasons why people think it is such a hard subject. As was previously mentioned, yes, it is a lot of information in a short amount of time. Your professor might spend 5-10 minutes talking about something that it took you hours, or days to understand. Another challenging aspect is the interconnectedness of ideas -- from day one, you will need to know and use almost everything you learn in a cumulative fashion, and in some cases apply it in novel ways. (If your professor is, shall we say, imaginative.)

There are some students, I suppose, who do fine just memorizing things. But if your course is like mine, your professor is not going to give you chances on the test to just rattle off reactions you know. (Well, maybe a few.) He will ask you questions that force you to apply a number of ideas in concert. You're gonna have to memorize a lot of stuff, don't get me wrong, but you're going to have to think plenty too. To some it comes naturally, to m-- er, I mean to other people, it may not.

If there is one thing you'll surely cover in general chem that is surely going to be useful in organic it is... (drum roll)...

ACID/BASE -- This is huge. Study acids and bases, speficially the Lewis definition. Get used to the idea of angry electrons doing a 'drive-by' on the positively charged part of another molecule. Get used to the idea of a one molecule stealing an H+ from something else that doesn't want it as bad. (Sort of like a gunner ruining the curve, brutalizing a slacker.) Know what electronegativity is and how it contributes to acidity. Also, realize that a conjugate base is an ion -- and therefore, the more the ion is able to handle/distribute its charge, the more stable it is, the more likely it is to exist! Sorry, maybe this is too much.

Memorize this now and repeat it over and over:

"An acid will donate a proton to the conjugate base of any acid with a higher pKa."

Also useful:

Molecular Geometry. The shape of something is very important to how it behaves.

Lewis Structures/Formal Charges. Get used to drawing a lot of things. Taking notes in organic class is like drawing a long cartoon of molecules slapping each other around and having little adventures.

Thermochemistry... this is more of an abstract thing, but it really is all about free energy and stability of end products and the activated complex and all of that jazz. You will be thinking a lot in organic 'hmm.. what is going to happen here?'. Not saying you'll be sitting there and calculating delta H or delta G for a given reaction, but knowing something about the stability of reactants vs stability of products might be useful when you are sitting there agonizing over whether something is going to go SN2 or E2... wait, it isn't going to help you at all, scratch that.

The length and scatter-brained nature of this message should tell you that it is also possible for organic to drive you insane. Don't worry, this is normal, and it is actually kind of fun. Just because you start mentally rotating every solid object you see, and pretending that a certain part of it is the chiral center and there are four things hanging off of it, does not mean you cannot function normally in society. Just don't go to the DMV and ask the lady at the counter if anyone has ever told her that her eyeglasses are meso. I know this from experience.

My study partners and I have figured it out, taking physics and organic chem together over the course of the last year. With organic, it is all about putting in the time. Put in as many hours as you can. Wish I could say the same for physics, for as we theorize, if you don't get it, you are SOL. (Not a chemistry acronym.)

Another note. I've heard that organic chem is a lot like med school, in as much as you need to learn a bunch of concepts and apply them all together, and there is a ton of information and it all comes very fast. Any med students out there who care to corroborate this theory, please feel free.

About organic lab: It is really cool. If you like working in general chem lab, that is, you like sitting around waiting for stuff, you don't mind the fog in the goggles, you enjoy the odors and head rushes, you are going to have a blast. It isn't any harder than gen chem lab, just more involved. And the glassware looks cooler.

I'd like to add to this already loquacious message, but I have to go study organic.

P.S. I don't know why, but it bothers me when people call it 'orgo'. Where is the other 'o'? Maybe 'orga'.
Sincerely yours,
asp
 
orgo is your worst nightmare, during the day.
 
Just a quick note to say not to worry about organic. I am currently finishing a master's degree in organic chemistry which is what my research is based on. If you work hard you will be fine. This course makes a great deal of sense if you give it a chance. The resoning skills you will develope as a result of your hard work will pay off dividends. I made A's in organic in undergraduate which is why I decided to further my graduate studies in this area. Please note I am not an exceptional student, just determined. With good study habits you will be fine.👍
 
it's definitely not what people make it out to be. it's tough to get an A+ in the class, and if you have a couple gunners in your class (or the dreaded sniper), it will make you feel stupid and you will loathe the class.

don't let it all 'get to you'. just keep your cool and you'll do fine.
 
Organic Chemistry.. what you need to know:

1) It's BORING
2) It's BORING
3) It's BORING
4) It's a lot of BORING information
5) You'll never really need 95% of the information given
6) It's BORING
 
Originally posted by Nvr Ending Jrny
Ok so im in chem 101 right now (2nd year ugrad....decided to go premed before this semesteR). so far it's not bad at all and I assume it will become much harder later this semester and in chem 102. my question is about orgo. what do you cover in orgo? what makes it so difficult for lots of people? if you get a B in chem 101 or 102 does that most likely mean you have no chance at an A in orgo (Assuming u tried your hardest in both)? What about the lab? Is orgo lab difficult compared to chem lab?

basically a general picture on orgo/orgo lab is what i'm looking for.

p.s.- i plan to take chem 102 over the summer.


95% perspiration; 99% memorization. Yeah, as you can see, there is no math....
 
memorization? it's like 5%! it's all thinking!


(unless memorizing is the only thing gunners are able to do...)
 
Hey Nvr Ending Jrny ;

Take everyone's experience, including what i say as a grain of salt man. Organic Chemistry is as hard as you make it and how good of a professor you have. If you go into it with the right attitude, and you have a competant professor, you should have no problems at all.

As many have stated OChem is the chemistry of molecules containing carbon. Which is the basis of what goes on in Biochemistry, etc. You go from mainly chugging numbers in General Chem, and start to "solve problems". If you have A and B, how can you make C, D, E, and F. Most of the course builds up your basic knowledge on how to get to those products and why things happen qualitatively (most of the time) An example would be how you can make glucose from certain compounds in the body, or make those certain compounds from glucose.

As for lab, you pretty much do the reactions you learn in lecture. Personally i think its just one big cooking class.

I have heard MANY stories about OChem from friends and classmates.

a) Its boring
b) I hate it
c) OChem was way better than GChem!
d) Eh...it wasn't as bad as i thought.

Pretty much its as hard as you make it, and as fun as you think it is. I personally don't think its a good idea to hype up the difficulty of OChem in your mind and go in concerned that this is the most horrible class ever. You might find it is something that you enjoy, or you might think its not too bad, or god forbid, you may find out that it is the most horrific thing ever.

You might ask how i feel about it? Well let me put it this way. In highschool, i swore i'd never take chemistry ever again. I sludged through General Chem...and decided it was tedious, but interesting. Went into OChem thinking this was the pre-med annihilator.....yea whatever. I loved it. Learned a lot, had fun in lab, and made many cool compounds. So fun that i took another year of OChem. I'm no chemistry major though, but it was fun to learn all that stuff. Having learned that one shouldn't be fearful of classes where other people have negative views about, i went into Physical Chemistry knowing that it will be challenging but not disaterous. Truth be told, PChem was indeed hard, but it wasn't a horrific experience either.

My point is, yes grades are important, but one has to have fun. The road ahead is long, and if we dread, complain and fear classes, we're only working against ourselves in the end. If you have fun in a class, you're more motivated to learn, which means you're likely to do better in it from my point of view. Like i said, your attitude going into classes like OChem will more than likely determine how well and how much you will enjoy the class.

Anyway, good luck with Ochem!
 
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Organic chemistry is a LOT of memorizing. There are concepts as well, but which way things go or which concept prevails in a particular situation is very often only determinable via memorizing. Pushing electrons does have a conceptual/theoretical basis, but there are many steps along the way in any particular reaction mechanism that are essentially not derivable without having memorized that some particular factor prevails over another at that moment.
 
orgo isnt really that much memorizing at all, people who end up memorozing it just arent too bright or efficient.

btw - it isnt hard either. It may be hard for a premed class but that isnt saying much. It absoluletly does not stack up against upper level math or physics courses.
 
Originally posted by MDTom
Within General Chemistry, there is a mixture of concepts and rote memorization.

However, with O-Chem, it is like memorizing a cookbook; literally.

You seriously don't have to memorize anything. Most of chemistry including O-Chem is conceptual. If you want to you can be like the dumb kids and just memorize. I suggest learning the basics and the rest should follow. As for the cookbook thing, real Chef's don't memorize. They have basic cooking knowledge and from there they rely on their intuition. p.s. O-Chem is nothing like med school classes. All you need to do in med school is memorize things. It is all about association. Anyone who thinks O-Chem is a good assessment of how well you will do in the first two years is an idiot. As
 
p.s. no offense to MDTom I think you are brilliant. I was just adding my feelings to the matter. Good luck with apps MDTom and thanks for the WTF quote.
 
Originally posted by MDTom
Within General Chemistry, there is a mixture of concepts and rote memorization.

However, with O-Chem, it is like memorizing a cookbook; literally.

umm not true at all.

this could have been the way you might have studied for ochem...and i guess many students try and do it this way.

ochem is an amazing class (and i know that i am in the minority). i guess it depends on who teaches it to you but i had 3 amazing professors. most of the people above who have posted on the basics on ochem are correct.

if you did bad in gchem it doesnt mean you will do bad in ochem. i did bad in gchem cause i felt that was more memorization than anything...i aced all my ochem classes because it was more conceptual and applying your knowledge to seeing how things work in carbon chemistry.
 
Originally posted by jlee9531
... i did bad in gchem cause i felt that was more memorization than anything...i aced all my ochem classes because it was more conceptual and applying your knowledge to seeing how things work in carbon chemistry.

jlee we might actually agree on something. I honestly think when students learn the basics of electron orbitals and energy levels in gen chem it is 100% memorization. Teaching this info to freshman is like explaining multiplication to a five year old who doesn't know how to add. If you can't see the picture all you can do is memorize. The same with O-Chem. If you truly cannot internalize the info, you will end up memorizing like everyone else and ultimately doing poorly on the final. The last thing you want to do is have 10,000 flash cards with rxns the night before the final. You're only digging your grave deeper.
 
we got to bring index card "cheat" sheets to our exams. it sucks when you cram a huge synthesis rxn on it, and then cant read it during the test.
its memorizing, its concepts, its both. it depends on your teacher. with crappy boring teacher = c. with good boring teacher = b+
the problem with orgo, most teachers are weirdos. mine rode his bike to class and tucked his pants into his socks so they wouldnt get caught in the chain. he never untucked them during class. and he happened to look like, and have the same name as, a character in the Chicken Run movie.
 
i personally thought my ochem professor was attractive and funny.

made me wanna try harder in her class 😉
 
Originally posted by Chrisobean
it depends on your teacher. with crappy boring teacher = c. with good boring teacher = b+ the problem with orgo, most teachers are weirdos.

That is probably why you don't have any acceptances. p.s. if you think orgo is for weirdos wait until you take med classes. Seriously, pathologists are weirder than orgo prof.
 
Organic Chemistry is be-all-end-all course that will determine your future...

As a physician: how competent you are
As a medical student: how well you do
As a husband/wife: how good you are in bed
As a human being: how personable you are
As an academic: how smart you are
As a _______: how ____ you are
 
Originally posted by BigRedPingpong
Organic Chemistry is be-all-end-all course that will determine your future...

As a physician: how competent you are
As a medical student: how well you do
As a husband/wife: how good you are in bed
As a human being: how personable you are
As an academic: how smart you are
As a _______: how ____ you are

agreed 👍
 
"orgo- what is it exactly?"

Is that a philosophical question?

Stanford or bust.
 
thanks to everyone that responded to my post. i'm glad i was able to see the two different perspectives (memorization vs more concepts/ideas/bigger picture). I hope I can take the latter approach because my memorization skills are decent but nothing great. My main issue with memorization is that if something is interesting I will memorize it instantly. If something is boring I have a very hard time remembering it. Sometimes I appreciate my brain for working in this way but at other times I'm sure you can all understand why I hate it.

On a side note this semester has been hell so far. 19 credits (3 of them MS1 level class), volunteering twice a week, pledging for a fraternity, bunch of other bull**** that I don't feel the need to type out. Okay i'm done venting. thanks for the replies once again.
 
as a chem major, I have to agree that the teacher can make it or break it for you.

I got B's both semesters of orgo, but when I took advanced graduate level orgo, I was getting A's on the tests cause I had a fantastic teacher the first half and it was very conceptual. Like which reaction would proceed faster and why. Ended up with an A- in the end cause the second half just had an ok orgo teacher who tested more on memorization than on concepts (or more specifically, felt like he was dealing with more memorization so I started doing memorizing for tests, which obviously didn't work out as well as studying concepts).
 
Originally posted by Rendar5
when I took advanced graduate level orgo

Are you a masochist??!!! I can't imagine anything more hideous.
 
Originally posted by ATPase
Are you a masochist??!!! I can't imagine anything more hideous.

hey atpase....haha i took advanced ochem as well. it was lovely. the class was cool cause it was for people who just really loved ochem and we had a great time studying partying...it was nice.

its not THAT bad haha.
 
jlee - and I thought you were cool! J/K

I'm impressed that you could take advanced o-chem (or orgo as we call it in the Southeast.) But to enjoy it? You are a strange one, indeed! 🙂
 
I swear that orgo can be really interesting with the right professor. And that's coming from a B orgo student. The advanced class was about reaction mechanisms much moreso than it was about learning about the different types of reactions. Like everything from the full year of orgo, then they teach you the details of it.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
95% perspiration; 99% memorization. Yeah, as you can see, there is no math....

There have been repeated posts on how Ochem requires so much memorization. THis is false. If you understand the basic concepts, minimal memorization is needed. Every reaction in Ochem is based off of about 5 general reactions. If you understand those there is nothing to memorize.
 
I always liked the mechanisms.

jlee and Rendar doing advanced orgo:
:hardy:


Me + advanced orgo =
+pissed+
 
Originally posted by bokermmk
There have been repeated posts on how Ochem requires so much memorization. THis is false. If you understand the basic concepts, minimal memorization is needed. Every reaction in Ochem is based off of about 5 general reactions. If you understand those there is nothing to memorize.

This is incredibly true, ochem just keeps repeating itself. If you understand the concepts ochem is built upon then everything will follow. Sure, there is some memorization but for the most part ochem is about applying general rules of chem over and over again (resonance, carbocations, etc)
 
i overheard this girl in my class pronounce carbo cat ion as "carbocayshun"
 
Originally posted by Chrisobean
i overheard this girl in my class pronounce carbo cat ion as "carbocayshun"

I guess that would be the noun form of the verb "to carbocate." :laugh:
 
Just my 2 cents- I was a B student in orgo because I have trouble with rotating objects in space- yet I thought it was a lot of fun and made some friends. And it's certainly important to the understanding of biochem.
🙂
 
Originally posted by jlee9531
umm not true at all.
...it depends on who teaches it to you but i had 3 amazing professors.

Exactly, it depends on the teachers. Unfortunately it wasn't until a year later that when I took P-Chem, the O-Chem stuff became more intuit. So yes, it definately does matter the professor that teaches it.

Imagine going all the way through O-Chem, and managing to get straight A's no less with still no conceptual understanding of HOMO's and LUMO's. EEK!!! Thank God my P-Chem professor was there to clear that problem up with me.
 
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