Ortho 2020 chances

[bachelor1]

Hey everyone, I am applying ortho next year and will be first class to be part of AOA-ACGME merger. What do you guys think my chances for ortho as a whole are? My USMLE step 1 was 228 and COMLEX level 1 was 660. thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[alprazoslam]

Hey everyone, I am applying ortho next year and will be first class to be part of AOA-ACGME merger. What do you guys think my chances for ortho as a whole are? My USMLE step 1 was 228 and COMLEX level 1 was 660. thanks!

According to NRMP it’s not excellent for anybody. 660 might be ok for former AOA. 228 is not going to be super helpful. Assuming you will be competing with several people with 700+ for former AOA spots

 

[bachelor1]

According to NRMP it’s not excellent for anybody. 660 might be ok for former AOA. 228 is not going to be super helpful. Assuming you will be competing with several people with 700+ for former AOA spots

thanks for your input

 

[alprazoslam]

thanks for your input

Yeah it’s just that red so popular for so many spots. Even if somebody’s made 290/900 and built a children’s hospital in Africa it’s not a for sure thing to get ortho

 

[QueenJames]

Shoulda gone MD bruh.

 

[sab3156]

Hey everyone, I am applying ortho next year and will be first class to be part of AOA-ACGME merger. What do you guys think my chances for ortho as a whole are? My USMLE step 1 was 228 and COMLEX level 1 was 660. thanks!

The fact that the merger will be "official" by 2020 does not matter. It has already effectively occurred, whether or not it is "official". AOA programs this past year were participating in both the MD and DO match. Some programs filled half with MD, half with DO. Others took all MD. It will likely get worse next year for DOs. A 228 is not only way below average for Ortho, but it is also below the national average of all people taking Step 1.

You really have your work cut out for you. I hope you have a strong research background with plenty of publications under influential faculty who might be able to get you some interviews. My friend from a highly regarded, top MD school received only a few interview invites this past year to Ortho programs, since he had zero research. He matched, and considers himself lucky to have done so. The name of his school was enough to carry him. DOs don't have that luxury.

 

[alprazoslam]

thanks for your input

Yeah it’s just that red so popular for so many spots. Even if somebody’s made 290/900 and built a children’s hospital in Africa it’s not a for sure thing to get ortho

The fact that the merger will be "official" by 2020 does not mean that this past year was basically very similar as some AOA programs were participating in both the MD and DO match. Some programs filled half with MD, half with DO. Others took all MD. It will likely get worse next year for DOs. A 228 is not only way below average for Ortho, but it is also below the national average of all people taking Step 1.

You really have your work cut out for you. I hope you have a strong research background with plenty of publications under influential faculty who might be able to get you some interviews. My friend from a highly regarded, top MD school received only a few interview invites this past year to Ortho programs, since he had zero research. He matched, and considers himself lucky to have done so. The name of his school was enough to carry him. DOs don't have that luxury.

Who needs ortho when we can BLT broken hips back in place. They just don’t want us in ortho bc they know we got the real voodo and gonna take all their patients

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

The fact that the merger will be "official" by 2020 does not mean that this past year was basically very similar as some AOA programs were participating in both the MD and DO match. Some programs filled half with MD, half with DO. Others took all MD. It will likely get worse next year for DOs. A 228 is not only way below average for Ortho, but it is also below the national average of all people taking Step 1.

You really have your work cut out for you. I hope you have a strong research background with plenty of publications under influential faculty who might be able to get you some interviews. My friend from a highly regarded, top MD school received only a few interview invites this past year to Ortho programs, since he had zero research. He matched, and considers himself lucky to have done so. The name of his school was enough to carry him. DOs don't have that luxury.

It certainly will be challenging for him, but his 228 USMLE and Comlex score make him solid for quite a few Gen Surg places.

I just had a lunch convo with a PD in one of the surgical specialties. Your personality and ability to function in a team environment trump all factors once you pass the baseline board scores. This can prove to be challenging bc a lot of med students are just socially challenged.

 

[Preston Garvey]

It certainly will be challenging for him, but his 228 USMLE and Comlex score make him solid for quite a few Gen Surg places. From there, he can specialize into a few ENT, Vascular, and Urology fellowships.

I just had a lunch convo with a PD in one of the surgical specialties. Your personality and ability to function in a team environment trump all factors once you pass the baseline board scores. This can prove to be challenging bc a lot of med students are just socially challenged.

There is no such thing as ENT and urology fellowships after general surgery. ENT, uro, ortho, and neuro are stand alone residencies.

 

[sab3156]

It certainly will be challenging for him, but his 228 USMLE and Comlex score make him solid for quite a few Gen Surg places.

Yeah, maybe Gen Surg is more realistic for OP.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

Not good at all; ortho is pretty much done for DOs

 

[alprazoslam]

Not good at all; ortho is pretty much done for DOs

Don’t whisper this to oms1 classes you’d flood the building with tears

 

[NVO]

Don’t whisper this to oms1 classes you’d flood the building with tears

i wonder if ortho gunners will still exist

 

[alprazoslam]

i wonder if ortho gunners will still exist

Yeah they will. We still have derm and PRS gunners with below average stats.


You know how reasonable people are lol

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

Don’t whisper this to oms1 classes you’d flood the building with tears

I just feel bad for the 2019 and 2020 kids who started DO school without knowing the full implications of the merger on residency placement and career options. We were fed a fat lie.

 

[Spectreman]

You kids need to calm down.

 

[Rekt]

You kids need to calm down.

Why? They're entirely correct. COMLEX is over with for competitive specialties. You want to match ortho as a DO you need >250s

 

[sab3156]

Why? They're entirely correct. COMLEX is over with for competitive specialties. You want to match ortho as a DO you need >250s

I know you know this, but it is important to also emphasize for all the DO pre-meds that it also has a lot to do with outstanding research quantity and quality, and great letters from big name faculty, or applying for competitive specialties is going to be a bad time.

There are people in my school who think they just need to get a 260 on Step 1 and then all the neurosurgery/ortho/ophtho/derm programs are going to be wide open for them. These are people who sat around at home all summer after MS1 and "relaxed", and have no future plans for research. I thought medical schools are supposed to guide their students... oh wait...

 

[sunshinefl]

Shoulda gone MD bruh.

Man are you the new @sab3156??

PS-I already had this thought and then noticed he/she was your only comment like so far

PPS-I didn’t @ you sab to instigate you, I just decided it was better than subtweeting you.

 

[sab3156]

Man are you the new @sab3156??

PS-I already had this thought and then noticed he/she was your only comment like so far

PPS-I didn’t @ you sab to instigate you, I just decided it was better than subtweeting you.

The man speaks the truth so I guess it is a compliment. Thanks.

I just think some people want to give and receive advice that is based on the real world and not the matrix. Sorry if it is offensive.

 

[sunshinefl]

The man speaks the truth so I guess it is a compliment. Thanks.

I just think some people want to give and receive advice that is based on the real world and not the matrix. Sorry if it is offensive.

Not offensive but just not useful at that point. Why didn’t you go MD?

 

[sab3156]

Not offensive but just not useful at that point. Why didn’t you go MD?

This thread is about a person asking specifically about applying ortho. But great question. Really relevant.

And to be honest, it is a useful (and very accurate) answer if you don't take it literally but instead look at the meaning, which is "you have a low chance of matching with those stats as a DO."

 

[QueenJames]

Man are you the new @sab3156??

PS-I already had this thought and then noticed he/she was your only comment like so far

PPS-I didn’t @ you sab to instigate you, I just decided it was better than subtweeting you.

IDK who sab is. I'm sure I have run into him/her on these forums at times though.

But nah. I'm the Queen.

And my job is to keep it as real as possible on these boards.

I could really care less about "hurting" feelings because if somebody gets butthurt over what I say on the internet... then chances are they will still get butthurt in person when an attending who is much more honest says it to their face.

I'm doing God's work over here my guy.

I've been on these forums for a while and time after time have seen people like OP and ran into "Chances at *blank* as a DO?" threads

And honestly... EVERYTHING is MUCH easier as a MD.

It's the truth.

There's no shame in it.

So people can take the truth for what it is.

If people get butthurt, then so be it lol

Instead of looking at my words, look at the intent behind them.... which is to say "You have a hell of a battle and you better know somebody who knows somebody if you want to do Ortho as a D.O.".

Many D.O. schools do not have their actual home institutions for their students to do all of their rotations in.

Many D.O. schools do not have solid chances for their students to do research and actually publish.

Many D.O. schools push the COMLEX over STEP prep all day and lie to their students when they tell them they should only take one over the other and PDs will accept one over another.

This isn't the right recipe for a student who wants to do competitive things like Ortho.

Things are just harder for a D.O.

Things that are almost near impossible for an average MD student to obtain will sure as hell be a no-no for a D.O. to get.... unless they have a connection to a program and mommy and daddy donated millions to the hospital or their PD is their uncle.

It's not fair but that's life.

 

[sunshinefl]

This thread is about a person asking specifically about applying ortho. But great question. Really relevant.

And to be honest, it is a useful (and very accurate) answer if you don't take it literally but instead look at the meaning, which is "you have a low chance of matching with those stats as a DO."

IDK who sab is. I'm sure I have run into him/her on these forums at times though.

But nah. I'm the Queen.

And my job is to keep it as real as possible on these boards.

I could really care less about "hurting" feelings because if somebody gets butthurt over what I say on the internet... then chances are they will still get butthurt in person when an attending who is much more honest says it to their face.

I'm doing God's work over here my guy.

I've been on these forums for a while and time after time have seen people like OP and ran into "Chances at *blank* as a DO?" threads

And honestly... EVERYTHING is MUCH easier as a MD.

It's the truth.

There's no shame in it.

So people can take the truth for what it is.

If people get butthurt, then so be it lol

Instead of looking at my words, look at the intent behind them.... which is to say "You have a hell of a battle and you better know somebody who knows somebody if you want to do Ortho as a D.O.".

Many D.O. schools do not have their actual home institutions for their students to do all of their rotations in.

Many D.O. schools do not have solid chances for their students to do research and actually publish.

Many D.O. schools push the COMLEX over STEP prep all day and lie to their students when they tell them they should only take one over the other and PDs will accept one over another.

This isn't the right recipe for a student who wants to do competitive things like Ortho.

Things are just harder for a D.O.

Things that are almost near impossible for an average MD student to obtain will sure as hell be a no-no for a D.O. to get.... unless they have a connection to a program and mommy and daddy donated millions to the hospital or their PD is their uncle.

It's not fair but that's life.

While true it will be very difficult with those stats as a DO and possibly better as an MD, it’s still not useful because:

1-Not everyone gets a choice in MD vs DO.
2-They might not have known they wanted ortho going in, thus hurt by DO.
3-Even if they had an MD option and knew they wanted ortho but still went DO, time travel isn’t possible and they already made those choices.

 

[QueenJames]

While true it will be very difficult with those stats as a DO and possibly better as an MD, it’s still not useful because:

1-Not everyone gets a choice in MD vs DO.
2-They might not have known they wanted ortho going in, thus hurt by DO.
3-Even if they had an MD option and knew they wanted ortho but still went DO, time travel isn’t possible and they already made those choices.

I see where you are coming from but in today's day and age... we have the internet.

We have emails and programs we can look at and we can directly message people.

We have reports to look into that outline the scores people need... what degrees these applicants hold... and everything else that is needed to enter a specific specialty.

Everybody that I know who is currently an Orthopedic surgeon CAME INTO med school knowing these things.

OP should have done the legwork before coming to med school and understood fully what he was/is up against.

I'm not saying it's OP's fault for not knowing he kinda shot himself in the foot by going DO... but it is what it is.

But like you said... the choice he made is the one he made.

So make due with what you got but don't be upset that you don't get ortho and have a backup plan.

I still stand by my comment.

If you want to do ortho or any uber surgical specialty... GO MD. You will still have to kick ass BUT it's much easier and less hurdles for you to jump through as a MD than as a DO.

I could care less though man.

If OP wants to apply Ortho once he gets there and doesn't match... no sweat off of my back.

If he does do it successfully, then good for him for getting what he wanted.

All I'm saying is that MD is better than DO when it comes to situations like this.

 

[Neopolymath]

On one hand, the merger is a devastating time to be a DO student that is ambitious. On the other hand, it's great because I hear sooooo much less about people at my school obnoxiously shooting for surgical subs that not only don't have the special resume required but invariably don't know a god damned thing about surgery or working hard in the first place. I'm not saying everyone needs to have a background in surgery or something like I do, but it would be cool if these people didn't just say they wanted to be a surgeon because they shadowed one for 2 hours during a couple knee scopes and like to work out. These people haven't even worked a 12 hour shift much less 28 in their lives. 3rd year is going to be hilarious for these people breaking and coming back to reality alone.

 

[alprazoslam]

On one hand, the merger is a devastating time to be a DO student that is ambitious. On the other hand, it's great because I hear sooooo much less about people at my school obnoxiously shooting for surgical subs that not only don't have the special resume required but invariably don't know a god damned thing about surgery or working hard in the first place. I'm not saying everyone needs to have a background in surgery or something like I do, but it would be cool if these people didn't just say they wanted to be a surgeon because they shadowed one for 2 hours during a couple knee scopes and like to work out. These people haven't even worked a 12 hour shift much less 28 in their lives. 3rd year is going to be hilarious for these people breaking and coming back to reality alone.

Yeah they base their choice off salary and Which ones sounds coolest as an intro to chicks at the bar.


Maybe a “I tore my ACL in junior league soccer omg ortho or bust” here or there

 

[Neopolymath]

Yeah they base their choice off salary and Which ones sounds coolest as an intro to chicks at the bar.


Maybe a “I tore my ACL in junior league soccer omg ortho or bust” here or there

Former division 9 athlete who just needs to grind lol

 

[alprazoslam]

Former division 9 athlete who just needs to grind lol

Can’t blame them I mean psych might get a trickle but “I’m an orthopedic surgeon” brings in the monsoon

 

[KeikoTanaka]

If you score 242+ on the USMLE, do great on rotations, have great research experience, why would you not have a chance at some ortho residency? Isn't the average USMLE score for ortho 241?

 

[Lexdiamondz]

If you score 242+ on the USMLE, do great on rotations, have great research experience, why would you not have a chance at some ortho residency? Isn't the average USMLE score for ortho 241?

Because doing all of those things make you average, not competitive.

Also, the Ortho average is 248. The average unmatched USMD who applied Ortho is 240 - higher than the average matched EM, Anesthesia, Gen surg, OBGYN or IM applicant. Just food for thought - your margin for error applying Ortho is razor thin.

 

[alprazoslam]

The match rate for 750+ comlex and like 260 usmle was In the 60s. It’s not a for sure thingfor anybody. Esp not 230 peeps

 

[FistLength]

I know you know this, but it is important to also emphasize for all the DO pre-meds that it also has a lot to do with outstanding research quantity and quality, and great letters from big name faculty, or applying for competitive specialties is going to be a bad time.

There are people in my school who think they just need to get a 260 on Step 1 and then all the neurosurgery/ortho/ophtho/derm programs are going to be wide open for them. These are people who sat around at home all summer after MS1 and "relaxed", and have no future plans for research. I thought medical schools are supposed to guide their students... oh wait...

Can't be emphasized enough. The days when DO's can snub research are quickly coming to an end. The competitive specialties have no shortage of high scoring board scores. DO's will do well to find out a name in the field and spend time with them for a letter. The best advice I got was from a PD who told me where to rotate based on the quality of LOR he has seen. Paid off huge on interviews when I had a big name write a letter, everyone mentioned it on my interviews, and I ended up matching at that program.

 

[FistLength]

Many D.O. schools do not have solid chances for their students to do research and actually publish.

Many D.O. schools push the COMLEX over STEP prep all day and lie to their students when they tell them they should only take one over the other and PDs will accept one over another.

This isn't the right recipe for a student who wants to do competitive things like Ortho.

Things are just harder for a D.O.

Things that are almost near impossible for an average MD student to obtain will sure as hell be a no-no for a D.O. to get.... unless they have a connection to a program and mommy and daddy donated millions to the hospital or their PD is their uncle.

It's not fair but that's life.

Wanted to comment on the research bit, which you are 100% correct, it is harder for DO's to get research, but its not an excuse for a driven student. Just to elucidate, I had to drive to another state (2-3 hours daily) my summer/Christmas/thanksgiving break to do research because no major institution near me would offer me a volunteer based research position. I was going to quit at some point because the dismal odds applying as a DO, but as my mentor said "You can't make up for tenacity", and he was right.

 

[QueenJames]

Wanted to comment on the research bit, which you are 100% correct, it is harder for DO's to get research, but its not an excuse for a driven student. Just to elucidate, I had to drive to another state (2-3 hours daily) my summer/Christmas/thanksgiving break to do research because no major institution near me would offer me a volunteer based research position. I was going to quit at some point because the dismal odds applying as a DO, but as my mentor said "You can't make up for tenacity", and he was right.

Well of course nothing is an excuse to people who REALLY REALLY REALLLY want to do something.

The question then becomes, "is it worth it?"

I can't answer that.

So good for you man. Keep fighting the good fight for your dreams.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I would say the chances are pretty low now with the merger. They will have enough competition with 240+ USMLE that a 228 will be overlooked. The 660 would have been great one year earlier.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

Just to put things into perspective Plainview's Ortho program took 4 MDs this year and 2 DOs.

 

[sab3156]

Just to put things into perspective Plainview's Ortho program took 4 MDs this year and 2 DOs.

Damn, and only gonna get worse from here on out.

 

[hbslax4]

Just to put things into perspective Plainview's Ortho program took 4 MDs this year and 2 DOs.

Don’t think using this stat (or similar stats for Broward) is that great of an indicator for what will happen in the future. You have to remember these programs would have had to convince DO’s to forgoe the DO match in order to get one of their spots through the MD match.

 

[DrMcLovin]

Hey everyone, I am applying ortho next year and will be first class to be part of AOA-ACGME merger. What do you guys think my chances for ortho as a whole are? My USMLE step 1 was 228 and COMLEX level 1 was 660. thanks!

Work and study hard on rotations at prior AOA programs, have ortho research, and good LOR’s. With those boxes checked you will have a good chance. This year I knew people with your comlex who went both matched and unmatched. It really comes down to fit with the program & work ethic once the other boxes are checked.

The sky isn’t falling but you will have to grind it out just like everyone else. You have zero chance in current ACGME ortho with your USMLE score but I can guarantee our program and many others will not take an MD who didnt rotate over a DO who rotated and made a good impression.

We’ve had about 10 students come through our program so far and its obvious who will get a spot somewhere vs who wont. I also have no idea about anyone’s board scores or research at this point. Most DO ortho programs have very different criteria for picking residents vs MD programs. I wouldnt put to much weight on the self hating DO students that are so vocal on SDN. They definitely wouldnt get a spot with all the complaining they do.

 

[gensurghopeful]

Would a 228 USMLE score be good for internal med residency in high profile cities like Detroit or Chicago?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Would a 228 USMLE score be good for internal med residency in high profile cities like Detroit or Chicago?

Sure. Maybe not University of Chicago, but UIC shouldn't be a problem.

 

[2021Doctor]

Just to put things into perspective Plainview's Ortho program took 4 MDs this year and 2 DOs.

I am not happy to read this.
Is there a site or forum to find out what is happening in general with the former AOA programs?

 

[alprazoslam]

Since when is Detroit a high profile city lmao

 

[gensurghopeful]

Since when is Detroit a high profile city lmao

You clearly aren't a city kid. Stick to your bubble.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Don’t whisper this to oms1 classes you’d flood the building with tears

OMS1 and half my class is coming in saying theyre interested in ortho haha

 

[QueenJames]

OMS1 and half my class is coming in saying theyre interested in ortho haha

Watch half of them change their mind to FM, EM, IM, Peds, and Psych in the next year and a half or so.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Watch half of them change their mind to FM, EM, IM, Peds, and Psych in the next year and a half or so.

I cant wait. In the meantime,

 

[ChiDO]

OMS1 and half my class is coming in saying theyre interested in ortho haha

We had about 50-70 (10 years ago) during my first year show up to the Ortho meeting. After a semester that number dropped to about 30 as people got weeded out. Ultimately I think we matched 8-10. Every semester and step 1 weeds people out.

 

[alprazoslam]

Watch half of them change their mind to FM, EM, IM, Peds, and Psych in the next year and a half or so.

Usually there’s a huge surg in interest mid to late July of second year in fm and im. Not sure what causes it