ortho chances

[tradkeke]

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Hey all, not ready to apply yet just had quick question.

Finished 3 rotations so far and got HP in all. Surgery is one of them, I'm hoping that as the year goes on I can eek up into Honors territory for a few (I've been on the cusp every time). Just wondering how bad does a HP in surgery will look? None of my experiences were in ortho and I haven't done an elective yet.

 

[A Ryan Seacrest Type]

Hey all, not ready to apply yet just had quick question.

Finished 3 rotations so far and got HP in all. Surgery is one of them, I'm hoping that as the year goes on I can eek up into Honors territory for a few (I've been on the cusp every time). Just wondering how bad does a HP in surgery will look? None of my experiences were in ortho and I haven't done an elective yet.

Don't sweat it, its not that big of a deal. Good performance on aways will fix that.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Don't sweat it, its not that big if a deal. Good performance on aways will fix that.

I like this guy.

 

[star field]

Feels like yesterday I was doing this for medical school apps...


Current Status: MS3, soon to be MS4 applying this upcoming cycle
School: ~ T10 medical school with T10 ortho program
Step 1: 258
Step 2: Taking early summer (anticipate 260+)
Clinical: 5/6 core rotations = honors, 1 HP in obygyn. Excellent comments throughout
Research: 2 ortho pubs (one first author), 2 under submission (both ortho) --> all leading to ~ 10-12 "research experiences" overall
AOA: won't know until summer, but anticipate given stats + solid leadership/volunteering


I think I'm pretty OK for ortho, but just don't know how to think of myself in terms of applicant "tiers" for where I should target for aways and then ERAS.

Also, random Q: Do I need to have additional rotations on my app (like EM/neuro) before ERAS is due? I will only have the core 6 roations plus 3 ortho rotations since my school scheduled me for EM/neuro way after ERAS is due.

 

[JJacobsDO152]

^why do people post stuff like this?

 

[MICKY MANTLE]

Feels like yesterday I was doing this for medical school apps...


Current Status: MS3, soon to be MS4 applying this upcoming cycle
School: ~ T10 medical school with T10 ortho program
Step 1: 258
Step 2: Taking early summer (anticipate 260+)
Clinical: 5/6 core rotations = honors, 1 HP in obygyn. Excellent comments throughout
Research: 2 ortho pubs (one first author), 2 under submission (both ortho) --> all leading to ~ 10-12 "research experiences" overall
AOA: won't know until summer, but anticipate given stats + solid leadership/volunteering


I think I'm pretty OK for ortho, but just don't know how to think of myself in terms of applicant "tiers" for where I should target for aways and then ERAS.

Also, random Q: Do I need to have additional rotations on my app (like EM/neuro) before ERAS is due? I will only have the core 6 roations plus 3 ortho rotations since my school scheduled me for EM/neuro way after ERAS is due.

Stats and 3 Ortho away rotations all appear solid (pubs not great), however, you left out any mention of LORs, which so many underestimate. LORs are critical, especially having letters from well-known people in the ortho field. Good luck next year.

 

[JJacobsDO152]

Feels like yesterday I was doing this for medical school apps...


Current Status: MS3, soon to be MS4 applying this upcoming cycle
School: ~ T10 medical school with T10 ortho program
Step 1: 258
Step 2: Taking early summer (anticipate 260+)
Clinical: 5/6 core rotations = honors, 1 HP in obygyn. Excellent comments throughout
Research: 2 ortho pubs (one first author), 2 under submission (both ortho) --> all leading to ~ 10-12 "research experiences" overall
AOA: won't know until summer, but anticipate given stats + solid leadership/volunteering


I think I'm pretty OK for ortho, but just don't know how to think of myself in terms of applicant "tiers" for where I should target for aways and then ERAS.

Also, random Q: Do I need to have additional rotations on my app (like EM/neuro) before ERAS is due? I will only have the core 6 roations plus 3 ortho rotations since my school scheduled me for EM/neuro way after ERAS is due.

there's no applicant "tiers". not sure you seem to understand how the match process works. you're going to get plenty of interviews and are more than just "ok". if there's anything i'd work on it would be your selfesteem and level of confidence.

 

[star field]

Appreciate the comments...mostly.

There are obviously not hard and fast applicant tiers, but to suggest that applicants shouldn't have an idea of where they stand to be competitive (ex. should shoot for T20s vs. shoot for T20-40s vs. shoot for community programs only, etc) would be silly. My question was just trying to get an idea of where I should focus my energy/time for the single away rotation my school is allowing and subsequent ERAS applications in terms of my true competitiveness.

As for LORs, I'm not entirely sure on where I stand. One will be from my PD (who I know well, did research with, etc.). Another will be a chair letter (who I will work with during a home ortho rotation), and the third is unknown/average at this point. Appreciate the reminder that these are more important than students sometimes realize!

 

[RetakeGlory]

My school takes step after M3 and based on how we make our schedule, we could take it in 2021 or 2022, meaning we can take it at a time when we would get a score or just a Pass or Fail. I was wondering what the consensus would be on what would be best?

Me, and everyone else I've talked to, agrees it would be best to have a score. My big question is though, at what point would a pass be better than a score? i.e If I was getting 230s on my practice test should I just switch it and take the pass? 240s? With the average around 250 it got me wondering. Obviously, my goal would be to take it scored and get a great score, this would only be in worst case scenario if I wasn't hitting my goal scores.

For reference/context, average app, top 20 school.

 

[myth_20]

Are candidates still expected to do 2-3 away rotations in ortho? Or are programs going by AAMC guidelines restricting us to one?

 

[star field]

Are candidates still expected to do 2-3 away rotations in ortho? Or are programs going by AAMC guidelines restricting us to one?

I would expect that most programs are following the CPA guidelines and restricting students to only one away rotation unless you do not have a home program. That's what my institution is doing (coastal university program).

 

[FutureDoc1088]

My school takes step after M3 and based on how we make our schedule, we could take it in 2021 or 2022, meaning we can take it at a time when we would get a score or just a Pass or Fail. I was wondering what the consensus would be on what would be best?

Me, and everyone else I've talked to, agrees it would be best to have a score. My big question is though, at what point would a pass be better than a score? i.e If I was getting 230s on my practice test should I just switch it and take the pass? 240s? With the average around 250 it got me wondering. Obviously, my goal would be to take it scored and get a great score, this would only be in worst case scenario if I wasn't hitting my goal scores.

For reference/context, average app, top 20 school.

See the article below. No one knows what's better since this is all new, but having a high step score would look better than a pass. A pass probably looks better than a 220-239. Having a pass and a high step 2 is probably also fine. Since you will primarily be in a group of applicants with step 1 scores, I would try to also have a score if your school would help you make that happen. I think you should talk to some of your professors to get their thoughts though.

https://pubmed-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.proxy1.library.jhu.edu/32925383/

 

[noshotinhell95]

So just got my step 2 score back and am kind of devastated. What do you think my chances are and how can I help myself with what remaining time I have before ERAS?

Non top 40 midwest MD school.
Step 1: 231
Step 2: 238
All HP, H surgery
7 Publications (1 ortho rest various medicine)
10 current ortho projects (may or may not publish by September, you know how research goes)
Working on connections and letters

I'm pissed and feeling like I just killed my chances to do the only thing I love. Any and all advice and perspectives are appreciated.

 

[Frogger27]

So just got my step 2 score back and am kind of devastated. What do you think my chances are and how can I help myself with what remaining time I have before ERAS?

Non top 40 midwest MD school.
Step 1: 231
Step 2: 238
All HP, H surgery
7 Publications (1 ortho rest various medicine)
10 current ortho projects (may or may not publish by September, you know how research goes)
Working on connections and letters

I'm pissed and feeling like I just killed my chances to do the only thing I love. Any and all advice and perspectives are appreciated.

You're gonna have to crush your home rotation and your away, those will be your best chances of matching. Be really strategic with what program you chose to do an away at, ideally a program that a) has residents with <240 step scores and b) historically takes rotating students

You could opt to take a research year to strengthen your app/connections, but again there is no guarantee it will help you match and may be a wasted year. You need to be mentally prepared that you may not match and be thinking of a plan B (dual apply, scramble prelim, research year, etc) that you can live with.

Happy to talk in DM if you have any specific questions as I just went through the match

 

[Gilakend]

historically takes rotating students

Is there a way to tell which programs do this? Just searching through the ortho google sheet?

Are you aware if there also programs that historically like/don't like couples matching / how to find out if there are in addition to ones that historically take rotating students?

 

[Frogger27]

Is there a way to tell which programs do this? Just searching through the ortho google sheet?

Are you aware if there also programs that historically like/don't like couples matching / how to find out if there are in addition to ones that historically take rotating students?

I would say the best way to find out which programs favor rotators/have taken students with lower board scores in the past is:
a) word of mouth (eg, talking to residents at your home program or recent matchees
b) past google docs- definitely limitations with this but can be helpful
c) Texas Starr - again limitations with this and not every school participates but I remember looking through and finding programs that had a number of <240 residents, so clearly look at more than grades.

with regards to the couples match, I don’t think any program really cares about it. A competitive candidate is a competitive candidate. If they offer you an interview, it’s not uncommon if you tell them that you are couples matching that they may reach out to the PD of your SO specialty to help get eyes on their application/possibly an interview. I don’t think couples matching has any effect on how a program views/would rank you

 

[CuriousMDStudent]

I know I'm not the typical M3 or M4 posting here but I wanted to ask how I am doing so far and wanted thoughts/guidance on where I should be investing my time moving forward.

I am a medical student who is just beginning his second year of medical school who is interested in orthopedic surgery and wanted to ask how I am faring so far. What do I need to do moving forward? Am I in a good enough situation to just focus my times and energy into STEP 1 (this will be P/F for me) and STEP 2 or should I still aim for some more research projects? If I am aiming for more research projects, how many more projects should I aim for? I feel as I come to my second and third year of medical school, I don't know when I will have time to do research. I feel I didn't do enough during my first year and wonder if I messed up.

Year: MS2, MD
School: T15
AOA: We don't have it
Research:
My research has been focused in ortho so far.
I have been involved in 7 research projects so far and this is the result:

• 2 have manuscripts completed and have been submitted for publication
• 3 have data collection completed and are being analyzed statistically and will be written up into manuscripts. 2/3 of these projects are being submitted to conferences.
• 1 I'm working on right now and I was promised that it can lead to at least 2 pubs? Data collection should be done by the end of the month and we'll see where that goes.
• 1 is a longitudinal study that will be done by my 3rd year according to my mentor. I did submit an abstract for this project for a research poster session as my school and will be presenting that there

Something I want to note is that I feel very weak clinically and in terms of studying. I have always been within 1 STD below the average in my classes. This past year of COVID took a toll on me in terms of studying. My saving grace is that STEP 1 is P/F so I am confident that if I locked down and studied for the next year I can learn the material well enough to do above average in my classes, pass STEP 1 and then have a strong knowledge foundation before I start clerkships. Hopefully that can lead to me doing well in clerkships and STEP 2 which is what will matter for me. My medical school is true P/F but I still want to do above average in my classes so that I can feel I mastered the material.

I've come to this fork in the road where I am trying to figure out if I should continue dedicating time to research or if I am in a decent enough situation where I can just focus on studying. I don't want to be in a position where I dedicated too much time into research and have lackluster clerkship grades and STEP 2. Then all the research will have been for nothing

 

[1732md]

Hi everyone, just wondering if I should try for ortho, do a research year, or just scrap it altogether and pursue something else.

Stats:
Step 1: 226
Step 2: Haven't taken yet, but shelf scores are looking promising
Clerkships: School is all P/F, but evaluations are great and supposedly I'll perform well on aways
Research: 1 first author (non ortho), 3 poster presentations (1 non ortho), and 2 abstracts (both ortho)
Extracurriculars:
-Part of an ortho internship between M1/M2 summer specifically for people from disadvantaged backgrounds.
-Served in the United States Army for 4 years as an airborne infantryman (gained alot of leadership experience from this)
-Represented my unit in the army as an athlete for 2 years
-President of orthopaedic interest group at my school (in addition to being president of another organization at my school)
-Receipient of an award of courage of stabilizing 2 people during an active shooting last year
-Multiple other work experiences (I am older lol)

I apologize if this comes off as humble bragging, but I think I am in an interesting position because my score is poor, but you hear about people with "X factors," and I was wondering if this would be something that counts. My biggest concern is not making it past the screens. Thanks ahead of time!

 

[sahabarun]

Sorry for bumping the thread, but I wanted to give my two cents. It's never too late to pursue ortho, especially if you're gearing up for your surgical rotation. As for fitting in, ortho folks do tend to have a certain camaraderie, so don't worry—you'll find your niche. While I'm not from the ortho field, I think it’s an awesome and in-demand profession. Recently, I found a fantastic orthopedist, Dr. Christopher Sakowski, through https://www.txorthopaedic.cоm/provider/christopher-sakowski-md/. He's not only an excellent specialist but also someone you might reach out to for more details about the profession. If you or anyone needs assistance, he's a fantastic resource to connect with.

 

[Autograft]

I was wondering about my chances of getting into ANY ortho residency but preferably one in the Philly area. My step 1 was 230, my preclinical grades were alright (a few honors here and there), I have 2 years of research prior to medical school with multiple publications (no first authors) in a heme/onc department. I have my surgical rotation in the winter but can't take an ortho elective until my fourth year. And I don't know if this matters but I played linebacker in highschool and one year in college, got into powerlifting for a couple of years after that and then boxing for a couple of years. Although I never been around ortho people before, I heard they were kind of like the jocks of the medical field and I have been having a hard time fitting in with most people in the medical field mainly because they are so unlike the high testosterone driven people I am used to being around. This by the way is one of the main reasons why I am interested in ortho. Also, I heard that you should decide early for ortho. Is it too late for me? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also, does anyone know whether or not ortho residents still get to the gym at least twice a wee

I was wondering about my chances of getting into ANY ortho residency but preferably one in the Philly area. My step 1 was 230, my preclinical grades were alright (a few honors here and there), I have 2 years of research prior to medical school with multiple publications (no first authors) in a heme/onc department. I have my surgical rotation in the winter but can't take an ortho elective until my fourth year. And I don't know if this matters but I played linebacker in highschool and one year in college, got into powerlifting for a couple of years after that and then boxing for a couple of years. Although I never been around ortho people before, I heard they were kind of like the jocks of the medical field and I have been having a hard time fitting in with most people in the medical field mainly because they are so unlike the high testosterone driven people I am used to being around. This by the way is one of the main reasons why I am interested in ortho. Also, I heard that you should decide early for ortho. Is it too late for me? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also, does anyone know whether or not ortho residents still get to the gym at least twice a week?

I think I lurked here in 2004. Same concerns. My board scores were okay, not mind blowing. 234/244. No pubs. Didn’t do so hot in away rotations. Failed to match first time around. Second time, I widened the net and finally got into my very last choice. It was last for a reason. We had a very malignant chairman who was well known in the circles for being very unfriendly and just plain weird. Fast forward from 2007 to now. I’m washing out hip and knee pus, and mostly doing difficult revisions.

I’ve had the opportunity to interview a lot of students for residency. The board scores matters. It’s highly predictive of whether or not you will pass part one and two of the aBOS boards. That being said, we had a lot of students with sky high board scores that came across as being arrogant or just plain odd, that we didn’t think would be a good fit for the program. These guys who were very smart gave us the impression that they won’t be a team player.

My advice: if you were weak with away rotations like I was, take a year off and do research. Specifically clinical research. Those papers are easier to crank out than bench research as they mostly involve chart reviews etc. be prepared to show WHY you want to go into ortho. Don’t just say you want to go into ortho. We had one candidate who said multiple times he wants to “take orthopedics into the future “ without elaborating further. He also name dropped which was a big turn off. We just wanted to figure out if we could work with him for five years and that he was t a d bag.

I can tell you from first hand experience as an attending of 14 years that this job sometimes will break you. You had better LOVE ortho to not quit and switch specialities. Thats what we are trying to determine with interviews.

But back to your point, there are thousands of applicants like you. Cast a wide net. Five years in a malignant program were hell, but I looked at the bigger picture. I got my foot in the door at a very undesirable residency -at the time. And now I’m replacing hips and knees and taking care of complications. There is no other job I’d rather do. Unfortunately getting your foot in the door is a numbers game and it always has been. Being a surgeon with solid skills both in the OR and the office with patients is a lifelong endeavor. Smart people can get in, but only the stubborn and persistent will survive and advance.

 

[Autograft]

I would also say that if you didn’t match, don’t panic and scramble for a gen surg spot. I was weak in my aways, and I scrambled into a prelim gen surg spot at another institution. That year was hell. First of all, I wasn’t in a good mental space. The unpleasantness of being a noncategorical intern made me totally forget why I loved ortho. I think my chances of getting in would have been much higher and much more secure had I done a year of clinical research at Rothman or U Penn.