Orthodontic Residency Opportunity

[grad13]

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There is a new orthodontic residency opening July 2010 in Pennsylvania. To apply check out www.setonhill.edu.
-then go to admissions
-then graduate programs
-then orthodontics
Since the school is just opening this would be a great year to apply.

 

[Ligature]

You have GOT to be kidding! Another ORTHO PROGRAM! So many new residents in the last few years, and it's not like the demand for treatment has increased THAT much. And another program not associated with a dental school to boot.

I think schools are opening ortho graduate programs because they generate income for their schools. What other reason could there be for such a rash of programs opening without demand to match.

I don't understand.😕

 

[bsmcga0]

You have GOT to be kidding! Another ORTHO PROGRAM! So many new residents in the last few years, and it's not like the demand for treatment has increased THAT much. And another program not associated with a dental school to boot.

I think schools are opening ortho graduate programs because they generate income for their schools. What other reason could there be for such a rash of programs opening without demand to match.

I don't understand.😕

I agree, supply with over take demand in the future

 

[Tooth]

You have GOT to be kidding! Another ORTHO PROGRAM! So many new residents in the last few years, and it's not like the demand for treatment has increased THAT much. And another program not associated with a dental school to boot.

I think schools are opening ortho graduate programs because they generate income for their schools. What other reason could there be for such a rash of programs opening without demand to match.

I don't understand.😕

I understand that nearly 50% of practicing orthodontists are aged 55+. When these guys retire in 10-15 years, there will be an enormous void of orthodontists in comparison to today. I don't think opening another program is a bad idea.

 

[nug]

New grads can't even find full-time work as it is. Most are lucky to even get a part-time gig. In a few years ortho school won't even be competitive. Nice! way to go AAO. You are pretty much worthless as an organization.

 

[QCkid]

I understand that nearly 50% of practicing orthodontists are aged 55+. When these guys retire in 10-15 years, there will be an enormous void of orthodontists in comparison to today. I don't think opening another program is a bad idea.

Newer orthodontists cant find work right now. Orthodontists don't retire, they become disabled or die.

 

[corticotomy]

How much is the tuition (couldn't find it on their web page)? What about accreditation? Why doesn't the program show up on ADA's program search when I search Pennsylvania and Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics?
http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/programs/search_advanced_us.asp

 

[confused tooth]

How much is the tuition (couldn't find it on their web page)? What about accreditation? Why doesn't the program show up on ADA's program search when I search Pennsylvania and Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics?
http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/programs/search_advanced_us.asp

Because the program is non-acc.

 

[mbgandh]

so two twin brothers, Dr. Dan and Donald Rinchuse, both crazy DMD/PhD's, are starting this program. They have been teaching at Pitt for almost 35 years.

 

[corticotomy]

I have a couple of friends who did not mach to ortho this year. If this program was at least accredited, I would want to let them know about this opportunity...

But I don't quite understand how you can start taking residents to an ortho residency program that isn't accredited... I hope to see how the program is doing toward getting accreditation, but I cannot find such information on their website. I am also curious about how much the tuition will be, because it's an important factor for many people.

 

[Guy Smiley]

I would be surprised if tuition was anywhere near reasonable. Most of these places that are opening programs aren't doing it because they are concerned about a future lack of orthodontists, they are doing it to make money for the school.

 

[TJNova2011]

If one did pay the extreme cost, could one still survive with 250k and what 3 years of 80k/yr on an orthos salary?

 

[gryffindor]

so two twin brothers, Dr. Dan and Donald Rinchuse, both crazy DMD/PhD's, are starting this program. They have been teaching at Pitt for almost 35 years.

So why not stay at Pitt? Or is no other program in the country that can sweeten the deal to recruit these two to strengthen their residency? This is just further proof there is no faculty shortage in ortho or dentistry for that matter.

And I agree that orthodontists never retire. They just practice until they keel over in the midst of bending a retraction arch.

 

[charlestweed]

Newer orthodontists cant find work right now. Orthodontists don't retire, they become disabled or die.

True…. but these old orthodontists don’t have a lot of patients because the majority of the ortho patients choose to see younger orthodontists.

 

[bsmcga0]

I understand that nearly 50% of practicing orthodontists are aged 55+. When these guys retire in 10-15 years, there will be an enormous void of orthodontists in comparison to today. I don't think opening another program is a bad idea.

I have not seen that stat, but in the last 10-12 years
3 OCE schools: about 40 residents now
San Antonio: 4
MUSC: 3
Nova: 8?
Southern Nevada: 10
Arizona: 3
-------------------
so about 68 residents in a decade.
I didn't look it up, but before roughly 200 residents?
that is a huge percentage increase

of course it wouldn't be so bad if educators did not sell out to the OCE.

another note: with some of these schools charging so much, I would think these graduates would be destined to work for chains for a long time, because of the increased debt load, hard to finance a practice

 

[KlingonDentist]

I suspect that These guys opening schools left and right do it for the glory and everlasting name recognition... I may be wrong.

Maybe Ego plays a large part with these program directors in opening a new program.

 

[doc toothache]

There appears to be an interesting correlation between perceived adequate number of practitioners/specialists. Before entering dental school/residency programs there is an insufficient number of practitioners/residents which magically changes to an overabundance once we have made it into ds/residency programs. Nothing short of interfering with the balance between supply and demand will do.

 

[Guy Smiley]

There appears to be an interesting correlation between perceived adequate number of practitioners/specialists. Before entering dental school/residency programs there is an insufficient number of practitioners/residents which magically changes to an overabundance once we have made it into ds/residency programs. Nothing short of interfering with the balance between supply and demand will do.

If this were really the case, why has ortho been the only residency to dramatically increase the number of residency programs/spots in the past several years? I know there aren't tons of perio or OMFS programs opening up all over the place.

 

[doc toothache]

If this were really the case, why has ortho been the only residency to dramatically increase the number of residency programs/spots in the past several years? I know there aren't tons of perio or OMFS programs opening up all over the place.

It may be because perio, omfs, endo and prosth are not exactly part of the usual vocabulary of the general population.

 

[Tooth]

If this were really the case, why has ortho been the only residency to dramatically increase the number of residency programs/spots in the past several years? I know there aren't tons of perio or OMFS programs opening up all over the place.

Pedo programs have exploded over the last few years too.

The true reason why orthodontists are going bankrupt isn't because there are too many graduating orthodontists. It is due to the economy. No one has money for cosmetic procedures in a recession. However, as I posted before, 45.1% of all practicing Orthodontists are aged 55+ as seen in the attachment provided by the ADA. There will be plenty of room for orthodontists in the future. 😴

 

[S Files]

True…. but these old orthodontists don’t have a lot of patients because the majority of the ortho patients choose to see younger orthodontists.

i guess this is in your experience. imo that's a big generalization. i have seen and heard different. new starts depends on a whole lot of other factors, one of which is referral gp's, who often stick with the guys they've been referring to, and are used to working with.
all the orthodontists in my hometown were 50+ when i started dental school, and almost 10 yrs later they show no signs of wanting to retire!!

 

[S Files]

There is a new orthodontic residency opening July 2010 in Pennsylvania. To apply check out www.setonhill.edu.
-then go to admissions
-then graduate programs
-then orthodontics
Since the school is just opening this would be a great year to apply.

Here we go again.....🙂
I'm seriously wondering if this is a joke. honestly.

In case it's not, a few predictions:
-tuition: 70K/yr
-not located within a hospital but will come up with some meaningless agreement with a county hospital somewhere that has 1 OMFS on staff who does no orthognathic
-not affiliated with a dental school but will pretend that ortho can be taught in a non-interdisciplinary setting
-will use the "access to care" argument
-in turn, all grads will go to metropolitan cities upon graduation
-throw in an MBA, and pretend that a Seton Hill MBA is world class and will help them in their ortho career
-starting this program is a vendetta against Pitt for something petty

 

[charlestweed]

i guess this is in your experience. imo that's a big generalization. i have seen and heard different. new starts depends on a whole lot of other factors, one of which is referral gp's, who often stick with the guys they've been referring to, and are used to working with.
all the orthodontists in my hometown were 50+ when i started dental school, and almost 10 yrs later they show no signs of wanting to retire!!

It would hurt the GP's reputation greatly if he/she kept on sending the patients to see a 60+ year old orthodontist, who still put bands on every single tooth and a bunch of 1st, 2nd, 3rd order bends on an archwire. The GPs who are loyal to these older orthodontists are probably 60-70 yrs old as well. None of my referring GPs are older than 45. Also remember that more than 50% of the ortho starts are from referrals from existing patients and advertisement…not from the GPs. If you want nice haircut, would you let a 60+ year old barber cut your hair?

You should setup your practice right next to them. I guarantee that you'll beat all of them.

 

[S Files]

It would hurt the GP’s reputation greatly if he/she kept on sending the patients to see a 60+ year old orthodontist, who still put bands on every single tooth and a bunch of 1st, 2nd, 3rd order bends on an archwire. The GPs who are loyal to these older orthodontists are probably 60-70 yrs old as well. None of my referring GPs are older than 45. Also remember that more than 50% of the ortho starts are from referrals from existing patients and advertisement…not from the GPs. If you want nice haircut, would you let a 60+ year old barber cut your hair?

You should setup your practice right next to them. I guarantee that you’ll beat all of them.

wow, sounds a lot different than the ones i know. bands on every tooth?? really?🙂 it could be the ones i interact with are more up to date or something, but that's really not the case.

sure it may be a good business move, but just not my style to open up next door. personal decision i guess.

 

[corticotomy]

Here we go again.....🙂
I'm seriously wondering if this is a joke. honestly.

In case it's not, a few predictions:
-tuition: 70K/yr
-not located within a hospital but will come up with some meaningless agreement with a county hospital somewhere that has 1 OMFS on staff who does no orthognathic
-not affiliated with a dental school but will pretend that ortho can be taught in a non-interdisciplinary setting
-will use the "access to care" argument
-in turn, all grads will go to metropolitan cities upon graduation
-throw in an MBA, and pretend that a Seton Hill MBA is world class and will help them in their ortho career
-starting this program is a vendetta against Pitt for something petty

I found the following on Google...


http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/ED_38748.html
Seton Hill University
$100,000
Sen. Arlen Specter (PA) requests $100,000 for:
Seton Hill University
PA

Summary
I urge the Subcommittee to provide funding for Seton Hill University for equipment for clinic facilities to develop Advanced Certificate in Orthodontics at the university. Equipment includes sterilization units and compression/evacuation units. The facilities will also be used to provide impoverished families with clinical care. Orthodontics improve oral health, function and quality of life. However, significant disparities exist regarding access to orthodontic services for low-income families, particularly in Southwestern Pennsylvania as the only area orthodontics clinic that treated the impoverished population closed two years ago. The creation of a free-standing orthodontics certificate program through the Orthodontics Program at Seton Hill University will produce much needed board certified orthodontists and improve access to necessary care.

http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/history/ED_29054.html?rev=81945
Orthodontics Program
$500,000
Rep. Tim Murphy (PA-18) requests $500,000 for:
Seton Hill University
1 Seton Hill Drive
Greensburg, PA 15601

Summary
Orthodontics Program
As part of this program, the University would open a clinic for the needy as a means of increasing access to orthodontic services for low-income families. It is anticipated that 500 individuals would be served annually. The clinic will provide orthodontic care to the indigent as well as working class families who may not be able to manage the cost of comprehensive orthodontic services. FY2010 funding would be used to develop the Advanced Certificate in Orthodontics at Seton Hill University and help outfit the required clinic facilities, which will also serve indigent families' clinical care.

 

[KlingonDentist]

There's a reason why Arlen Specter jumped ship from R to D.

Disclosure: I'm neither R nor D.

 

[furcation]

Pedo programs have exploded over the last few years too.

The true reason why orthodontists are going bankrupt isn't because there are too many graduating orthodontists. It is due to the economy. No one has money for cosmetic procedures in a recession. However, as I posted before, 45.1% of all practicing Orthodontists are aged 55+ as seen in the attachment provided by the ADA. There will be plenty of room for orthodontists in the future. 😴

If this is the case... where did all these 55+ orthodontists go to school. Did they have tons of programs, close them down for 20-30 years and then now they are re-opening programs??? Dont think so... 55+ is a big range and people are working until older ages. Its not that all of these 55+ are going to magically retire all at the same time. those that are just 55 are going to be working for quite a while still.

These days age 50 is close to halfway through an orthodontists career starting age 30-35, retiring age 65-70. So... shoudlnt the age 55+ age group be 40-50% of the total?

 

[amalgamator42]

well let's see, off the top of my head, northwestern, loyola, washington university all shut down their dental programs and orthodontic programs.

 

[furcation]

well let's see, off the top of my head, northwestern, loyola, washington university all shut down their dental programs and orthodontic programs.

I was exaggerating to make a point. the program sizes at some of the places are ridiculous you have to admit. You want the extra competition for job opportunities? no matter how many programs, if you look at the ADA survey, more ortho are coming out than retiring, even if there are all these 55+'ers.

 

[OMS2011]

Look guys if you want to hear it from a guy that actually practices orthodontics in the real world, not in an undergraduate clinic or in a residency, THE MARKET IS SATURATED! I know there are going to be guys that respond to this saying that I am just trying to defend my turf. They can believe what they want, I really dont care. The fact of the matter is that the AAO is an impotent organization that has done nothing to stop the privatization of orthodontic education. These new programs are being developed for purely financial reasons. It has nothing to do with a shortage of practitioners. There may be alot of orthodontists that are 55+. I question the data! That doesnt mean they have plans of retiring anytime in the near future. At 55 most are just getting their practice well established, and have plans to do it for another 15-20 years. The doctor I purchased my practice from was 75 when he retired. The orthodontist that treated me as a kid practiced for 50+ years and didnt retire until he was 80 something. With the economy as it is, and the losses that docs have taken in there retirement plans over the last decade, I dont see the trend changing anytime soon. Add to this the fact that many GPs are getting into ortho now because they took a weekend Invisalign course and think that ortho is as simple as sending a set of impressions to a lab and having some plastic trays made. If you dont believe my take on the current state of ortho, call a practice broker such as Bentson/Clark/Copple. They work with many of the residency programs and will tell you there is a gross mismatch between the number of residents graduating and the number of opportunities that wait for them when they get out. If you think it is going to be like the golden days of ortho when you could go to a town, hang a shingle and have patients flooding to your doors, you are going to be sadly disappointed and possibly bankrupt. I am just giving you a realistic picture. I remember what it was like to be a dental student and have dreams of what is was going to be like to graduate from an ortho residency and practice happily ever after. Unfortunately it is just that......a dream.

 

[OMS2011]

And another thing guys.......My accountant who specializes in dental practices, told me that several of his orthodontic clients declared bankruptcy this year!!! Did you hear me? BANKRUPTCY......... Dont tell me things arent upside down in the world of ortho! And with Obama in the house I dont see things getting better anytime soon.

 

[charlestweed]

And another thing guys.......My accountant who specializes in dental practices, told me that several of his orthodontic clients declared bankruptcy this year!!! Did you hear me? BANKRUPTCY......... Dont tell me things arent upside down in the world of ortho! And with Obama in the house I dont see things getting better anytime soon.

I think these orthodontists declared bankruptcy because they bought houses and other investment properties they couldn’t afford......not because they have fewer ortho starts. I do agree with what you said about our current president.

 

[OG1]

Another factor that hasn't being discussed is a problem orthodontics has created for itself over the past 30 years: increased efficiency. The advent of direct bonding instead of banding, better wires, indirect bonding, self-ligation, etc. have compounded to decrease the amount of visits, chair time, and doctor time required per patient. This means that orthodontists can treat more patients in less time, and has lead to more satellite offices. Also, GPs can and do take a bigger piece of the pie as techniques have become more accessible (direct bonding for simple ortho cases, Invisalign, etc.).

I do agree with Tooth, though, that the economy is being underestimated. Bentson's numbers show dramatic changes of doom for ortho, but they all follow the trend of the economy absolutely tanking worse than it has in a long time in 2008. GPs are more likely to take whatever they can get in tough times, but ortho becomes less lucrative when there is crown and bridge. An ortho case becomes a drawn out ordeal that you have to deal with when compared to crown and bridge which you can get down and paid for in a few short visits (especially when you are better at it). I think tough times will always bring fewer referrals for every specialty because of this.

 

[QCkid]

I think these orthodontists declared bankruptcy because they bought houses and other investment properties they couldn’t afford......not because they have fewer ortho starts. I do agree with what you said about our current president.

Ortho starts are down 25-30%. This is a very large number. This comes from a couple of supply companies(Ormco, American, Unitek) who base it off of the amount of brackets and bands sold.

 

[cuneatus2]

There is a new orthodontic residency opening July 2010 in Pennsylvania. To apply check out www.setonhill.edu.
-then go to admissions
-then graduate programs
-then orthodontics
Since the school is just opening this would be a great year to apply.

This may just be the stupidest thing I have ever read.

Unbelieveable.

What happened to orthodontic education being about the learning and not about the $$$$$$$?

Programs started all for the mighty dollar:

UNLV
Jacksonville
Colorado
University of Southern Nevada
Seton Hill


Am I missing any? Where will the next one be? How about another one in Vegas?

Anyone out there want to start on ortho program with me? We could get rich!

 

[KlingonDentist]

This may just be the stupidest thing I have ever read.

Unbelieveable.

What happened to orthodontic education being about the learning and not about the $$$$$$$?

Programs started all for the mighty dollar:

UNLV
Jacksonville
Colorado
University of Southern Nevada
Seton Hill


Am I missing any? Where will the next one be? How about another one in Vegas?

Anyone out there want to start on ortho program with me? We could get rich!

You know, you might be on to something. Since there are not much job opportunities out there it may not be a bad idea to start our own ortho program and charge $150K per yr. per student. I'm pretty sure there will be takers. We don't have to worry about the economy any more since these desperate students will pay any amount of money to go to ortho. How about approaching Notre Dame Univ?
We don't need many ortho instructors to get a program running. Look at U south Nevada, only 1 Full time Instructor/Program director for 27 residents! Dang we'll be rich.

 

[charlestweed]

Ortho starts are down 25-30%. This is a very large number. This comes from a couple of supply companies(Ormco, American, Unitek) who base it off of the amount of brackets and bands sold.

The starts are down because the struggling GPs refer fewer patients to ortho. It is not significant enough for them to file bankruptcy. The orthodontists don't just sit there and watch their income shrinking. They cut staff hours or let some of their employees go. They stop sending cases to outside lab and make the appliances in house. They stop buying supplies from big companies like 3M, Ormco, GAC (this is probably why their sales are down) and go with companies (Forestadent, Ortho Technology, Class One, Ortho-direct, OSE etc.) that sell the same things for less.

There are plenty of people who want braces, but only a few are willing to pay $5-6k to get their teeth straightened. If you are willing to charge the patients significantly lower fees than this price range, many will come to see you. I've just started 5 new cases this morning for Newport Dental.

 

[QCkid]

The starts are down because the struggling GPs refer fewer patients to ortho. It is not significant enough for them to file bankruptcy. The orthodontists don’t just sit there and watch their income shrinking. They cut staff hours or let some of their employees go. They stop sending cases to outside lab and make the appliances in house. They stop buying supplies from big companies like 3M, Ormco, GAC (this is probably why their sales are down) and go with companies (Forestadent, Ortho Technology, Class One, Ortho-direct, OSE etc.) that sell the same things for less.

There are plenty of people who want braces, but only a few are willing to pay $5-6k to get their teeth straightened. If you are willing to charge the patients significantly lower fees than this price range, many will come to see you. I’ve just started 5 new cases this morning for Newport Dental.

I need a job Dr. Tweed. Know of any? Im contemplating a scratch startup on the cheap but need a job in the meantime. I'd like to avoid the 120 patient a day clinics (Western Dental), but if their are no other otpions then WD it is.

 

[cuneatus2]

I need a job Dr. Tweed. Know of any? Im contemplating a scratch startup on the cheap but need a job in the meantime. I'd like to avoid the 120 patient a day clinics (Western Dental), but if their are no other otpions then WD it is.

Have you looked at Western Dental? I have friends that couldn't even get a job as an orthodontist with them!

 

[charlestweed]

I need a job Dr. Tweed. Know of any? Im contemplating a scratch startup on the cheap but need a job in the meantime. I'd like to avoid the 120 patient a day clinics (Western Dental), but if their are no other otpions then WD it is.

3 more starts in the afternoon at Newport Dental….man, they are killing me. I know job market is pretty tough right now. Even at Western Dental, they no longer need orthodontists. The only solution is to create job for yourself by setting up an office from scratch. Since I have a very small office, the initial overhead (rent, staff salaries, supplies, utilities etc.) was only $6000/month. To break even, I only needed about 3-4 starts a month...and this is not very hard to get.

 

[kato999]

3 more starts in the afternoon at Newport Dental….man, they are killing me. I know job market is pretty tough right now. Even at Western Dental, they no longer need orthodontists. The only solution is to create job for yourself by setting up an office from scratch. Since I have a very small office, the initial overhead (rent, staff salaries, supplies, utilities etc.) was only $6000/month. To break even, I only needed about 3-4 starts a month...and this is not very hard to get.

What's the going rate for a typical 18m treatment at your office?

 

[furcation]

I say we bombard the AAO and ADA/CODA with complaints and concerns... email them every single day. call them once in a while. Go to the annual meetings and stand up. 😉 Let's stop it before it gets worse maybe in 10-15 years we can recoup when the population grows.. We can complain all we want, but unless we actually do something itll never change.

I saw that CODA was at the ADEA annual session and they discussed orthodontic residencies.

Proposed New Standards for Accreditation Standards for Advanced Specialty Education Programs in Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics (Appendix 3)

It also says "you may submit written comments to CODA until the comment due date indicated in the agenda. Comments should be submitted to: Director, Commission on Dental Accreditation, 211 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, IL 60611." by may 1st for this topic.

 

[furcation]

I say we bombard the AAO and ADA/CODA with complaints and concerns... email them every single day. call them once in a while. Go to the annual meetings and stand up. 😉 Let's stop it before it gets worse maybe in 10-15 years we can recoup when the population grows.. We can complain all we want, but unless we actually do something itll never change.

I saw that CODA was at the ADEA annual session and they discussed orthodontic residencies.

Proposed New Standards for Accreditation Standards for Advanced Specialty Education Programs in Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics (Appendix 3)

It also says "you may submit written comments to CODA until the comment due date indicated in the agenda. Comments should be submitted to: Director, Commission on Dental Accreditation, 211 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, IL 60611." by may 1st for this topic.

Heres the website: http://www.ada.org/117.aspx#Open

 

[QCkid]

I say we bombard the AAO and ADA/CODA with complaints and concerns... email them every single day. call them once in a while. Go to the annual meetings and stand up. 😉 Let's stop it before it gets worse maybe in 10-15 years we can recoup when the population grows.. We can complain all we want, but unless we actually do something itll never change.

I saw that CODA was at the ADEA annual session and they discussed orthodontic residencies.

Proposed New Standards for Accreditation Standards for Advanced Specialty Education Programs in Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics (Appendix 3)

It also says "you may submit written comments to CODA until the comment due date indicated in the agenda. Comments should be submitted to: Director, Commission on Dental Accreditation, 211 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, IL 60611." by may 1st for this topic.

That we be a good start.

 

[QCkid]

3 more starts in the afternoon at Newport Dental….man, they are killing me. I know job market is pretty tough right now. Even at Western Dental, they no longer need orthodontists. The only solution is to create job for yourself by setting up an office from scratch. Since I have a very small office, the initial overhead (rent, staff salaries, supplies, utilities etc.) was only $6000/month. To break even, I only needed about 3-4 starts a month...and this is not very hard to get.

I am planning on doing this simply becuase their are no other choices. I think most of the other residents are planning on the same, but even a doing a low cost start up is difficult because their are NO places that need more orthodontists unless your looking at podunk Kansas. Ive looked at almost every town and city west of Texas.

I have been following some of your comments and appreciate the advice on a scratch start up. I was also wondering what you think about used equipment from some of the online vendors. Some of its used, some of its refurbished. Have you tried any equipment like that? If I buy refurbished im worried about breakdowns and the cost of repair. Ultimately the cost of repairs could remove the incentives for buying the equipment in the first place with total cost of ownership costing as much or more than new equipment.

 

[charlestweed]

I am planning on doing this simply becuase their are no other choices. I think most of the other residents are planning on the same, but even a doing a low cost start up is difficult because their are NO places that need more orthodontists unless your looking at podunk Kansas. Ive looked at almost every town and city west of Texas.

I have been following some of your comments and appreciate the advice on a scratch start up. I was also wondering what you think about used equipment from some of the online vendors. Some of its used, some of its refurbished. Have you tried any equipment like that? If I buy refurbished im worried about breakdowns and the cost of repair. Ultimately the cost of repairs could remove the incentives for buying the equipment in the first place with total cost of ownership costing as much or more than new equipment.

Find a small 900-1000 sf space, put 4-5 chairs in there, and hire a $12/hr assistant. And voila, you have yourself an ortho office. There are more than 20 orthodontists within a 5 mile radius from my main office (I set this up from scratch 5 years ago)……some are well-established ortho practices, some are big corporate offices like Western Dental, SmileCare, Newport Dental, some are in-house orthodontists who work at GP offices. I am sure the new dental school, Western University, nearby will open an ortho residency program in the near future. Even with such fierce competition, I have no problem meeting my production goal every month. How do I do it? I make the treatment more affordable for the poor Hispanic and Asian families…they want to have straight teeth just as much as the rich folks.

You should have no problem with the used equipments. My wife bought a 20+ year old perio office and last year, I bought a 20+ year old ortho practice. We are still using these same old equipments. We haven't had to throw anything away yet.

 

[fido!]

You know, you might be on to something. Since there are not much job opportunities out there it may not be a bad idea to start our own ortho program and charge $150K per yr. per student. I'm pretty sure there will be takers. We don't have to worry about the economy any more since these desperate students will pay any amount of money to go to ortho. How about approaching Notre Dame Univ?
We don't need many ortho instructors to get a program running. Look at U south Nevada, only 1 Full time Instructor/Program director for 27 residents! Dang we'll be rich.

A 150 grands for 1 year????U gotta be kidding!!!!
Moreover,Please get your facts straightened before you post out here! USN has 19 residents so far..not 27!USN has 3 FT(including program director)and 2 PT!!

 

[drdents999]

A lot of good points made on this thread and many of the points are quite valid. This is what I have seen over the years (after many jobs):

1. It is very difficult to find a good job that will not burn you out. If you live in cali, you will have to work at a chain or if you are in NY you will have to work at some crummy hole in the wall Medicaid practice. Good luck finding that that golden ideal parachute buy-in. This is what every ortho resident dreams of and rarely finds and has no choice but to buy or start a practice.
2. C. Tweed has the right idea with his low overhead, quality treatment at affordable fees. When you consider what many high end fee for service offices, you realize that even at a considerably lower fee, you will make an immense amount of profit. Certainly, you have see more patients than you would with a higher fee, but by higher assistants that can be delegated to do many of the procedures, this should be no problem.
3. Starting a practice isn't easy, especially if you have no family experience or spousal support. I would highly recommend having a supplementary side income before venturing on this route or you could be living very conservatively for a very long time.
4. These ortho programs are definitely started there to make money, there is no question in my mind about this. If you think these programs are going to eliminate the "need" in the country, it's not happening.
5. More ortho programs does mean more graduates and more graduates looking for jobs. This means the likelihood of you finding a job is less and less...
6. Old orthos do not retire, they continue to work until they cannot live.
7. The ADA's age of "55" is ridiculous because most orthos are at their prosperous time around 40-60! They will not retire at least until 70.
8. There is enough to go around, it's just like many capitalistic businesses though. There will be an ortho making 600k a year and another making only 150k/year. There is a huge disparity in income, but I suppose greed has no limits...

Ortho is okay, it's not easy (not yet at least...) in the beginning, rites of passage and some tough times are inevitable.

 

[Demeter]

You have GOT to be kidding! Another ORTHO PROGRAM! So many new residents in the last few years, and it's not like the demand for treatment has increased THAT much. And another program not associated with a dental school to boot
I don't understand.😕

I just started a pediatric dental office a few months ago. It seems that every month a new ortho grad stops by my office asking my Front desk if they can meet and talk to me about opening an ortho practice in the same town. The real problem is that the chains like Bright Now etc.. are opening up everywhere and they hire one orthodontist and farm him out to all of their chains.