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[futurehealer117]

Okay,

So I already know that this is going to be a polarizing thread, but well....frankly, I'm ok with it.😀 In all honesty and forgetting our Semper Fi D.O. or Die attitudes for a second, do any of you feel as I do that the profession could benefit from some changes? For Example:

Increasing the amount of research done by Osteopathic Schools? True, many programs have greatly improved in this area, but it still seems that the groups as a whole doesn't hold much interest for reserch. Thoughts?

Either raising the G.P.A and MCAT requirements (slightly, perhaps to an average 3.45 and 29) OR mandating that D.O. students take the USMLE in addition to the comlex. It seems that doing so could eliminate the stereotype that D.O. students are just M.D. school rejects or somehow less qualified or competent. Comments?

And for the most controversial... SHOULD the D.O. be altered to D.O.M. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) or O.M.D. (Osteopathic Medical Doctor). It is highly understandable (to myself at least) that many individuals continue to confuse D.O's with O.D.'s or to think that they are some kind of Chiropractor, as there is absolutly nothing in D.O to indicate that they practice modern medicine. Considering that there are Doctors of Homeopahtic Medicine, or Doctors of Oriental Medicine, perhaps it isn't enough to just say we're "Doctors"

Now please, while reading this know that I love D.O.'s and I hope to one day be so honored to become one; but just because you love somthing doesn't mean you shouldn't encourage it to grow. And whereas I know that in clinical settings much of the stigma has been removed from D.O's because they proven themselves to be great physicians; and where as these points may seem trivial to most of us, to some they are still very, very important. And to me it seems that any leg up or leveling of the playing field one could have would be great in the already absurdly competitive (and often un-cooperative as such) world of medicine.

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[deleted245139]

while im new to medical school (entering fall 2009), im not new to medicine... maybe its my NY upbringing, but I see DO's everywhere. The ER I work at is just about 50/50. I think the stigma is eroding steadily. Most people have no idea what difference there is... and as time passes and more DOs enter sub-specialties like gas, gs, er. the lines are being blured. I will wear my DO with pride, mostly because i feel its a better way to practice medicine. I think in the next 20 yrs things will look different in the MD/DO distinction

 

[Art Vandelay2]

The 5 stages of pre-D.O.

1) Ignorance- This stage begins during the undergraduate years and is due to poor advising from pre-med clubs and advisors. The student has no clue that DO's exist (although mostly no fault of their own).

2) Exploration - This stage occurs later in the undergraduate experience (like maybe when you get your MCAT scores or your second C in ORGO). You begin to research DO's online and talk with friends/coworkers about this new possibility. AACOMAS will let me replace a grade? Awesome!

3) Anger - You get caught up on the anti-DO threads of SDN and think all that you will learn in school will be how to crack necks and backs, and that you will be stuck in suburban Alaska for residency. I'll never consider applying DO!

4) Questioning - You have now shadowed a few docs (MD and DO) and begin to contemplate the idea of having "D.O." after your name. Will I have to explain to everybody for the rest of my life that I'm not a chiropractor or an optometrist? You spend hours online browsing through residency programs around the country in your hopeful specialty to see if you find any residents with DO after their name. You find many in your home state and feel much better!

5) Acceptance - At this stage, you realize that advice from neurotic premeds is just insane. After speaking with current med students, residents and attendings, you now realize that 99% of patients want a thorough and conscientious doctor. You send in your deposit and are excited for school to begin. You will get out of med school what you put into it.

What stage are you at currently?

 

[nlax30]

Increasing the amount of research done by Osteopathic Schools? True, many programs have greatly improved in this area, but it still seems that the groups as a whole doesn't hold much interest for reserch. Thoughts?

A lot probably comes from the fact that most DO schools do not have an "attached" academic medical center that is involved in research. But then again, it can be highly dependent on the student. Even if your particular school doesn't offer a lot of research options there are always opportunities outside of school.... local research group, a university close by, etc.... not too mention doing a research rotation. Some people just aren't that interested in it, shouldn't totally be the fault of the schools.

That said, as whole I think there should be more well designed studies on OMT.

Either raising the G.P.A and MCAT requirements (slightly, perhaps to an average 3.45 and 29) OR mandating that D.O. students take the USMLE in addition to the comlex. It seems that doing so could eliminate the stereotype that D.O. students are just M.D. school rejects or somehow less qualified or competent. Comments?

GPA and MCAT averages are going up each year. And you're assuming that higher GPA/MCAT means higher quality students and better doctors. Most schools take many other factors into consideration (life experience, jobs, etc...) into deciding whether an applicant would be successful or not. Once your start med school your GPA/MCAT means squat. Besides, that stereotype is more or less a pre-med phenomenon.

And for the most controversial... SHOULD the D.O. be altered to D.O.M. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) or O.M.D. (Osteopathic Medical Doctor). It is highly understandable (to myself at least) that many individuals continue to confuse D.O's with O.D.'s or to think that they are some kind of Chiropractor, as there is absolutly nothing in D.O to indicate that they practice modern medicine. Considering that there are Doctors of Homeopahtic Medicine, or Doctors of Oriental Medicine, perhaps it isn't enough to just say we're "Doctors"

Go back and read through any of the numerous threads that debate this. I just don't see it changing.

And whereas I know that in clinical settings much of the stigma has been removed from D.O's because they proven themselves to be great physicians; and where as these points may seem trivial to most of us, to some they are still very, very important. And to me it seems that any leg up or leveling of the playing field one could have would be great in the already absurdly competitive (and often un-cooperative as such) world of medicine.

Who are these "some" you refer to here? Beyond the pre-med level I have just not run across these things being huge issues among physicians in practice.

 

[FutureDrB]

The 5 stages of pre-D.O.

1) Ignorance- This stage begins during the undergraduate years and is due to poor advising from pre-med clubs and advisors. The student has no clue that DO's exist (although mostly no fault of their own).

2) Exploration - This stage occurs later in the undergraduate experience (like maybe when you get your MCAT scores or your second C in ORGO). You begin to research DO's online and talk with friends/coworkers about this new possibility. AACOMAS will let me replace a grade? Awesome!

3) Anger - You get caught up on the anti-DO threads of SDN and think all that you will learn in school will be how to crack necks and backs, and that you will be stuck in suburban Alaska for residency. I'll never consider applying DO!

4) Questioning - You have now shadowed a few docs (MD and DO) and begin to contemplate the idea of having "D.O." after your name. Will I have to explain to everybody for the rest of my life that I'm not a chiropractor or an optometrist? You spend hours online browsing through residency programs around the country in your hopeful specialty to see if you find any residents with DO after their name. You find many in your home state and feel much better!

5) Acceptance - At this stage, you realize that advice from neurotic premeds is just insane. After speaking with current med students, residents and attendings, you now realize that 99% of patients want a thorough and conscientious doctor. You send in your deposit and are excited for school to begin. You will get out of med school what you put into it.

What stage are you at currently?

Haha! Greatness 👍


Now, to answer the OP's questions...

1. In my opinion there is always room for more research.

2. I don't think higher GPA and/or MCAT standards will lead to better doctors, just eliminate good ones whose grades aren't stellar. This is another one of the MANY reasons I am going D.O. Not all the competitiveness you see in M.D. I'm here to be the best doctor I can be, not to win any awards with my grades or brag about how good I am.

3. I too have wondered about altering the name to something other than D.O. just to clear up any confusion between O.D., etc. But really, who cares what initials follow your name? As the other posters have said, patients want a good doctor...period. I am actually friends with a D.O. who I didn't even know was a D.O. for the first couple years I knew him. Normally people introduce themselves as Dr. So-and-so, not Dr. So-and-so MD or DO

I for one don't mind explaining the difference to people. Gives me an opportunity to tell them why D.O.'s are better! (kidding) But, I do like explaining the difference.

 

[facetedforms]

I've grown up in and around a huge institution of medicine in the US. I have seen first hand how good doctors with DO behind their name are just as good or better, well respected and colleagues don't really care.

I think changing DO now, would be like changing a surgeons badge title to DOS, or SD (surgical doctor) even though they practice a certain, specific form of medicine.

I would strongly object to being called an 'osteopath' instead of doctor, but I really don't see that being a problem much longer after some gray haired folks retire.

I think change has not happened, for two reasons.

1. People who are DOs enjoy being distinct and let their work speak for them.

2. Once you've put in enough sleepless early mornings/late nights intubating ICU patients, dosing coumadin, or being arm deep in someone's chest, you won't care if you are considered a doctor or how you are viewed, because you ARE a doctor. Not to mention you will be too tired to think about it.


I think this is a topic of pre-meds, and little else, because everyone else is busy practicing or studying medicine.

😎

 

[facetedforms]

Also, there is really nothing stopping clinical research from being done...but I think anything that requires more than a little funding will take time to get going.

DO-PhD programs seem like a good idea, but I've only seen a few.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Okay,

So I already know that this is going to be a polarizing thread, but well....frankly, I'm ok with it.😀 In all honesty and forgetting our Semper Fi D.O. or Die attitudes for a second, do any of you feel as I do that the profession could benefit from some changes? For Example:

Increasing the amount of research done by Osteopathic Schools? True, many programs have greatly improved in this area, but it still seems that the groups as a whole doesn't hold much interest for reserch. Thoughts?

Either raising the G.P.A and MCAT requirements (slightly, perhaps to an average 3.45 and 29) OR mandating that D.O. students take the USMLE in addition to the comlex. It seems that doing so could eliminate the stereotype that D.O. students are just M.D. school rejects or somehow less qualified or competent. Comments?

And for the most controversial... SHOULD the D.O. be altered to D.O.M. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) or O.M.D. (Osteopathic Medical Doctor). It is highly understandable (to myself at least) that many individuals continue to confuse D.O's with O.D.'s or to think that they are some kind of Chiropractor, as there is absolutly nothing in D.O to indicate that they practice modern medicine. Considering that there are Doctors of Homeopahtic Medicine, or Doctors of Oriental Medicine, perhaps it isn't enough to just say we're "Doctors"

Now please, while reading this know that I love D.O.'s and I hope to one day be so honored to become one; but just because you love somthing doesn't mean you shouldn't encourage it to grow. And whereas I know that in clinical settings much of the stigma has been removed from D.O's because they proven themselves to be great physicians; and where as these points may seem trivial to most of us, to some they are still very, very important. And to me it seems that any leg up or leveling of the playing field one could have would be great in the already absurdly competitive (and often un-cooperative as such) world of medicine.

Why don't you worry about getting into medical school first before you redefine the nature of it's existence.

 

[soisauce]

The 5 stages of pre-D.O.

1) Ignorance- This stage begins during the undergraduate years and is due to poor advising from pre-med clubs and advisors. The student has no clue that DO's exist (although mostly no fault of their own).

2) Exploration - This stage occurs later in the undergraduate experience (like maybe when you get your MCAT scores or your second C in ORGO). You begin to research DO's online and talk with friends/coworkers about this new possibility. AACOMAS will let me replace a grade? Awesome!

3) Anger - You get caught up on the anti-DO threads of SDN and think all that you will learn in school will be how to crack necks and backs, and that you will be stuck in suburban Alaska for residency. I'll never consider applying DO!

4) Questioning - You have now shadowed a few docs (MD and DO) and begin to contemplate the idea of having "D.O." after your name. Will I have to explain to everybody for the rest of my life that I'm not a chiropractor or an optometrist? You spend hours online browsing through residency programs around the country in your hopeful specialty to see if you find any residents with DO after their name. You find many in your home state and feel much better!

5) Acceptance - At this stage, you realize that advice from neurotic premeds is just insane. After speaking with current med students, residents and attendings, you now realize that 99% of patients want a thorough and conscientious doctor. You send in your deposit and are excited for school to begin. You will get out of med school what you put into it.

What stage are you at currently?

I think i'm finally at acceptance.

 

[spicedmanna]

The 5 stages of pre-D.O.

1) Ignorance- This stage begins during the undergraduate years and is due to poor advising from pre-med clubs and advisors. The student has no clue that DO's exist (although mostly no fault of their own).

2) Exploration - This stage occurs later in the undergraduate experience (like maybe when you get your MCAT scores or your second C in ORGO). You begin to research DO's online and talk with friends/coworkers about this new possibility. AACOMAS will let me replace a grade? Awesome!

3) Anger - You get caught up on the anti-DO threads of SDN and think all that you will learn in school will be how to crack necks and backs, and that you will be stuck in suburban Alaska for residency. I'll never consider applying DO!

4) Questioning - You have now shadowed a few docs (MD and DO) and begin to contemplate the idea of having "D.O." after your name. Will I have to explain to everybody for the rest of my life that I'm not a chiropractor or an optometrist? You spend hours online browsing through residency programs around the country in your hopeful specialty to see if you find any residents with DO after their name. You find many in your home state and feel much better!

5) Acceptance - At this stage, you realize that advice from neurotic premeds is just insane. After speaking with current med students, residents and attendings, you now realize that 99% of patients want a thorough and conscientious doctor. You send in your deposit and are excited for school to begin. You will get out of med school what you put into it.

What stage are you at currently?

Absolutely brilliant. This sort of reminds me of the Kubler-Ross model of grieving, only for Pre-DO. Perhaps the OP had this in mind when posting it.

Anyway, this should be stickied. It's the best synthesis/summary of the process that I've seen thus far.

 

[BabyKangaroo]

Okay,

So I already know that this is going to be a polarizing thread, but well....frankly, I'm ok with it.😀 In all honesty and forgetting our Semper Fi D.O. or Die attitudes for a second, do any of you feel as I do that the profession could benefit from some changes? For Example:

Increasing the amount of research done by Osteopathic Schools? True, many programs have greatly improved in this area, but it still seems that the groups as a whole doesn't hold much interest for reserch. Thoughts?

I think research exists at institutions for many reasons. I do feel that it is the choice of the institution to instigate such measures, and furthermore the choice of the students to be involved. Not everyone wants to do research, although done for the right reasons and with eager minds obviously provides benefits to the science of medicine. Also, a majority of the D.O. schools are private, and my memory may be a little cloudy, but I remember that in certain states, the amount of money dispersed to its medical school (i.e. not a private school) depends on different factors, some of which are based off the amount of research conducted. I am sure there are allopathic schools that are very lacking in this area as well.

Either raising the G.P.A and MCAT requirements (slightly, perhaps to an average 3.45 and 29) OR mandating that D.O. students take the USMLE in addition to the comlex. It seems that doing so could eliminate the stereotype that D.O. students are just M.D. school rejects or somehow less qualified or competent. Comments?

They are going up each year. Grades and MCAT only are gauges how you will do in medical school and on standardized exams, respectively. I think Osteopathic schools do well in assessing the whole applicant, not just off of numbers.

And for the most controversial... SHOULD the D.O. be altered to D.O.M. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) or O.M.D. (Osteopathic Medical Doctor). It is highly understandable (to myself at least) that many individuals continue to confuse D.O's with O.D.'s or to think that they are some kind of Chiropractor, as there is absolutly nothing in D.O to indicate that they practice modern medicine. Considering that there are Doctors of Homeopahtic Medicine, or Doctors of Oriental Medicine, perhaps it isn't enough to just say we're "Doctors"

No.

Now please, while reading this know that I love D.O.'s and I hope to one day be so honored to become one; but just because you love somthing doesn't mean you shouldn't encourage it to grow. And whereas I know that in clinical settings much of the stigma has been removed from D.O's because they proven themselves to be great physicians; and where as these points may seem trivial to most of us, to some they are still very, very important. And to me it seems that any leg up or leveling of the playing field one could have would be great in the already absurdly competitive (and often un-cooperative as such) world of medicine.

Change doesn't necessarily mean growth. Progression is defined in terms of moving forward on the correct path. It isn't progression if one keeps moving forward, but is completely on the wrong path. They must first find the problem, turn around, go back to the beginning and follow the correct path. I think being a D.O. is a positive. Think, if we became M.D.s, would that many people know about osteopathic treatments? I think that D.O.s who don't use OMM still have a higher chance of their patients asking them what a D.O. is, therefore the patient knows about common problems that can be treated by a D.O. and will spread the word themselves, if not actually get seen in the future, thus reducing their dependency on medication and helping them in the long run etc. etc. Every little bit counts.

D.O.s are on the right path, one they found covered by tons of overgrowth for centuries of forgotten principles I might add. I just got done agreeing with the statement "Who cares about Still's philosophy? Just get on with practicing medicine," in another thread. I think A.T. Still has a great 'philosophy' of a "big picture" mentality that a lot of physicians (allo and osteo) have adopted today. OMM is a great tool, the arguing of the 'belief' or philosophy of it is a waste of time. It is what EVERY physician should believe. Common sense. I believe in that philosophy, just am not going to argue it anymore as a means to say that I am different. People will see that I have "D.O." after my name and that excites me, b/c then I can tell them why that is if they ask, and what I can do for them! If I were an M.D., no one would ask me how I practice medicine, albeit it is very much the same (except for OMM) as a D.O. After all, "Doctor" comes from the Latin "docere" which means to teach. More opportunities to teach our patients 🙂

With that said, just do your best. If you do that, I am sure no one will question your D.O. title where you practice. You will be a team player and earn respect, just like everyone else in the race.

 

[ILikeFood]

Okay,

So I already know that this is going to be a polarizing thread, but well....frankly, I'm ok with it.😀 In all honesty and forgetting our Semper Fi D.O. or Die attitudes for a second, do any of you feel as I do that the profession could benefit from some changes? For Example:

Increasing the amount of research done by Osteopathic Schools? True, many programs have greatly improved in this area, but it still seems that the groups as a whole doesn't hold much interest for reserch. Thoughts?

Either raising the G.P.A and MCAT requirements (slightly, perhaps to an average 3.45 and 29) OR mandating that D.O. students take the USMLE in addition to the comlex. It seems that doing so could eliminate the stereotype that D.O. students are just M.D. school rejects or somehow less qualified or competent. Comments?

And for the most controversial... SHOULD the D.O. be altered to D.O.M. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) or O.M.D. (Osteopathic Medical Doctor). It is highly understandable (to myself at least) that many individuals continue to confuse D.O's with O.D.'s or to think that they are some kind of Chiropractor, as there is absolutly nothing in D.O to indicate that they practice modern medicine. Considering that there are Doctors of Homeopahtic Medicine, or Doctors of Oriental Medicine, perhaps it isn't enough to just say we're "Doctors"

Now please, while reading this know that I love D.O.'s and I hope to one day be so honored to become one; but just because you love somthing doesn't mean you shouldn't encourage it to grow. And whereas I know that in clinical settings much of the stigma has been removed from D.O's because they proven themselves to be great physicians; and where as these points may seem trivial to most of us, to some they are still very, very important. And to me it seems that any leg up or leveling of the playing field one could have would be great in the already absurdly competitive (and often un-cooperative as such) world of medicine.

There are only two questions that matter.

1. Is the job the same (as MD's)?
2. Is the pay the same?


As for raising the GPA and MCAT reqs...you should probably research a concept called supply and demand.

 

[Semicolon]

Aside from the push for more research, I can honestly say that I respectfully disagree. In terms of research, it seems that some schools pride themselves more on focusing on creating primary care physicians for an underserved area rather than promoting the academic/research path after graduating (such as WVSOM). A big issue with research is that you need FUNDING, which is something DO schools don't really receive compared to MD schools, although I'll admit that I don't know much about how that works.

In terms of increasing the GPA/MCAT averages...WHY the heck would you do that?! I think it's great that they look beyond the numbers to find a good prospective physician, and I definitely do not think that they should change that at all.

And what would be the point of changing the degree? You think that explaining what a D.O. is would be any different than explaining what a D.O.M. or a O.M.D. is? I know you say you love the osteopathic philosophy, but to me it sounds like you're a tad insecure. If there would be ANY logical change of degree, I would think that it would be merging it with the M.D. degree altogether (considering the further blurring of any differences between the two).

Change doesn't necessarily mean growth. Progression is defined in terms of moving forward on the correct path. It isn't progression if one keeps moving forward, but is completely on the wrong path. They must first find the problem, turn around, go back to the beginning and follow the correct path. I think being a D.O. is a positive. Think, if we became M.D.s, would that many people know about osteopathic treatments? I think that D.O.s who don't use OMM still have a higher chance of their patients asking them what a D.O. is, therefore the patient knows about common problems that can be treated by a D.O. and will spread the word themselves, if not actually get seen in the future, thus reducing their dependency on medication and helping them in the long run etc. etc. Every little bit counts.

D.O.s are on the right path, one they found covered by tons of overgrowth for centuries of forgotten principles I might add. I just got done agreeing with the statement "Who cares about Still's philosophy? Just get on with practicing medicine," in another thread. I think A.T. Still has a great 'philosophy' of a "big picture" mentality that a lot of physicians (allo and osteo) have adopted today. OMM is a great tool, the arguing of the 'belief' or philosophy of it is a waste of time. It is what EVERY physician should believe. Common sense. I believe in that philosophy, just am not going to argue it anymore as a means to say that I am different. People will see that I have "D.O." after my name and that excites me, b/c then I can tell them why that is if they ask, and what I can do for them! If I were an M.D., no one would ask me how I practice medicine, albeit it is very much the same (except for OMM) as a D.O. After all, "Doctor" comes from the Latin "docere" which means to teach. More opportunities to teach our patients 🙂

Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍

 

[JaggerPlate]

Aside from the push for more research, I can honestly say that I respectfully disagree. In terms of research, it seems that some schools pride themselves more on focusing on creating primary care physicians for an underserved area rather than promoting the academic/research path after graduating (such as WVSOM). A big issue with research is that you need FUNDING, which is something DO schools don't really receive compared to MD schools, although I'll admit that I don't know much about how that works.

In terms of increasing the GPA/MCAT averages...WHY the heck would you do that?! I think it's great that they look beyond the numbers to find a good prospective physician, and I definitely do not think that they should change that at all.

And what would be the point of changing the degree? You think that explaining what a D.O. is would be any different than explaining what a D.O.M. or a O.M.D. is? I know you say you love the osteopathic philosophy, but to me it sounds like you're a tad insecure. If there would be ANY logical change of degree, I would think that it would be merging it with the M.D. degree altogether (considering the further blurring of any differences between the two).



Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍

The thing about 'raising the numbers' is that it's based on nothing. The OP said 3.45/29 because the MD average is like 3.5-6/30-31, but the OP failed to realize that these are AVERAGES for MD schools, not cutoffs. There are generally no MD schools that say you need a 3.5/30 to apply/get a secondary just as there are no DO schools that say you need a 3.5/27. There are low cutoffs, but no average cutoffs. The averages are raised based on the stats of applicants, which are steadily increasing every year ... IE will be 3.45 and 29 in a few cycles (schools like Western and DMU are already at 3.5+ and 27/28).

 

[Dissected]

Either raising the G.P.A and MCAT requirements (slightly, perhaps to an average 3.45 and 29) OR mandating that D.O. students take the USMLE in addition to the comlex. It seems that doing so could eliminate the stereotype that D.O. students are just M.D. school rejects or somehow less qualified or competent. Comments?

This cannot just 'change' by upping the minimum requirements. Osteopathic medical schools accept the best qualified candidates that they can to their schools, and it just so happens that the median scores of the applicant pool are in the mid-twenties with a 3.4-3.5 gpa. Compare that to the folks that apply allopathic. Average applicant scores are much higher, thus the average applicant scores that will be accepted will be higher. It is not the schools themselves that would need to change, it is the academic qualtiy of applicants applying that would have to be raised. That is not soemthing you can just...do.

Im not saying that the scores define quality of applicant, but it is foolish to think that gpa/MCAT bear no significance in how successful an individual can be in med-school. Scores are raising every year, because more qualified applicants see that DO's are real doctors that can go into most specialties. Take a look again in 5 years. It will be a whole new ballgame, mark my words.


edit: lol jaggerplate. i didnt even read your post..looks like we are on the same page 😀

 

[slick27]

I wouldn't be surprised if the average GPA and MCAT scores are higher this year for accepted applicants simply because the economy is so bad. Everytime the economy is down, the number of applicants to medical schools, as well as, other graduate programs increases. Its better to be school during times like these, than trying to find a job.

 

[facetedforms]

I wouldn't be surprised if the average GPA and MCAT scores are higher this year for accepted applicants simply because the economy is so bad. Everytime the economy is down, the number of applicants to medical schools, as well as, other graduate programs increases. Its better to be school during times like these, than trying to find a job.

I just checked out AAMC data vs US recessions timeline from 1982 on...its pretty amazing how they coincide, although applicants tend to be about a year or two behind the curve. I would imagine there is more of an immediate spike with undergraduate schools, then the grad schools a year or two later.

Not much of a spike during the 1873 recession for whatever reason...😀

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions

www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2007.pdf

 

[engineeredout]

The 5 stages of pre-D.O.

1) Ignorance- This stage begins during the undergraduate years and is due to poor advising from pre-med clubs and advisors. The student has no clue that DO's exist (although mostly no fault of their own).

2) Exploration - This stage occurs later in the undergraduate experience (like maybe when you get your MCAT scores or your second C in ORGO). You begin to research DO's online and talk with friends/coworkers about this new possibility. AACOMAS will let me replace a grade? Awesome!

3) Anger - You get caught up on the anti-DO threads of SDN and think all that you will learn in school will be how to crack necks and backs, and that you will be stuck in suburban Alaska for residency. I'll never consider applying DO!

4) Questioning - You have now shadowed a few docs (MD and DO) and begin to contemplate the idea of having "D.O." after your name. Will I have to explain to everybody for the rest of my life that I'm not a chiropractor or an optometrist? You spend hours online browsing through residency programs around the country in your hopeful specialty to see if you find any residents with DO after their name. You find many in your home state and feel much better!

5) Acceptance - At this stage, you realize that advice from neurotic premeds is just insane. After speaking with current med students, residents and attendings, you now realize that 99% of patients want a thorough and conscientious doctor. You send in your deposit and are excited for school to begin. You will get out of med school what you put into it.

What stage are you at currently?

Best. Post. Ever.

 

[facetedforms]

Best. Post. Ever.

Agreed. 😀

 

[SaharaGirl]

I think M.D.D.O title would look better. You are a MD & a DO 🙂

 

[Dissected]

I think M.D.D.O title would look better. You are a MD & a DO 🙂

lol. i think you might have to go through about 8 years of grad school to be able to put that on your coat.

 

[slick27]

In all reality I think OMM should be a masters degree. Two years of OMM training doesn't make a proffession (aka DO), but there is too much tradition there to simply change the degree name. In my opionion at least.

 

[Semicolon]

In all reality I think OMM should be a masters degree. Two years of OMM training doesn't make a proffession (aka DO), but there is too much tradition there to simply change the degree name. In my opionion at least.

So...kinda like a MD, MOMM? Too many M's.

 

[JaggerPlate]

In all reality I think OMM should be a masters degree. Two years of OMM training doesn't make a proffession (aka DO), but there is too much tradition there to simply change the degree name. In my opionion at least.

No one cares about your opinion to be honest (no offense). You don't have a DO, nor are you an osteopathic medical student, you're a pre-med. You should check out the threads in the Osteo forum about the degree change.

 

[hemoglobincell]

Think, if we became M.D.s, would that many people know about osteopathic treatments? I think that D.O.s who don't use OMM still have a higher chance of their patients asking them what a D.O. is, therefore the patient knows about common problems that can be treated by a D.O. and will spread the word themselves, if not actually get seen in the future, thus reducing their dependency on medication and helping them in the long run etc. etc. Every little bit counts.

Wouldn't this be a good thing if OMM didn't exist? It seems like DO schools only keep OMM around as a historical matter. Very few DOs use OMM because they recognize that it either doesn't work or it's not as effective or safe as other treatments.

D.O.s are on the right path, one they found covered by tons of overgrowth for centuries of forgotten principles I might add. I just got done agreeing with the statement "Who cares about Still's philosophy? Just get on with practicing medicine," in another thread. I think A.T. Still has a great 'philosophy' of a "big picture" mentality that a lot of physicians (allo and osteo) have adopted today. OMM is a great tool, the arguing of the 'belief' or philosophy of it is a waste of time. It is what EVERY physician should believe. Common sense. I believe in that philosophy, just am not going to argue it anymore as a means to say that I am different. People will see that I have "D.O." after my name and that excites me, b/c then I can tell them why that is if they ask, and what I can do for them! If I were an M.D., no one would ask me how I practice medicine, albeit it is very much the same (except for OMM) as a D.O. After all, "Doctor" comes from the Latin "docere" which means to teach. More opportunities to teach our patients 🙂

Doesn't this basically equate a DO with a chiropractor? Why go to all the extra schooling if you really believe the body just heals itself?

 

[Dissected]

Wouldn't this be a good thing if OMM didn't exist? It seems like DO schools only keep OMM around as a historical matter. Very few DOs use OMM because they recognize that it either doesn't work or it's not as effective or safe as other treatments.


Doesn't this basically equate a DO with a chiropractor? Why go to all the extra schooling if you really believe the body just heals itself?

I think this is the wrong crowd to be making ignorant, outlandish statements about an established profession.

 

[hemoglobincell]

I think this is the wrong crowd to be making ignorant, outlandish statements about an established profession.

Look at what I was quoting. It seems that BabyKangaroo continually emphasizes this grand difference between M.D.'s and D.O.'s, and I wonder, if he really believes those differences and in all the other hocus pocus, why not just become a chiropractor? I resent the statement that D.O.'s provide anything an M.D. does not provide... M.D.=D.O. (so much so that, in California, all the D.O.'s became M.D.'s back in the 60's). D.O.'s do not offer some holistic approach or treatment plan, and A.T. Still was just as "wrong", as far as modern medicine is concerned, as his blood-letting allopathic counterparts.

OMM is a historical relic for the establishment to keep their power in an ever-consolidating world of medical education. People going into an osteopathic school with these crazy misguided notions that somehow the schooling they will get will be vastly different than at an allopathic school (people like BabyKangaroo) are the reason D.O.'s still have this terrible stigma.

 

[Semicolon]

Wouldn't this be a good thing if OMM didn't exist? It seems like DO schools only keep OMM around as a historical matter. Very few DOs use OMM because they recognize that it either doesn't work or it's not as effective or safe as other treatments.


Doesn't this basically equate a DO with a chiropractor? Why go to all the extra schooling if you really believe the body just heals itself?

I have to agree with DoktorB here; you sound like you don't know a darn thing about osteopathic medicine let alone OMM. Please do some research before you start posting nonsense.

Edit: I just saw what you posted above me. I don't see how anything BabyKangaroo has said could be misconstrued as an emphasis on DO over MD; I believe most of us, if not all of us, believe that MD=DO and that's that.

 

[hemoglobincell]

I have to agree with DoktorB here; you sound like you don't know a darn thing about osteopathic medicine let alone OMM. Please do some research before you start posting nonsense.

Just calling out BabyKangaroo for emphasizing differences that aren't there. You misunderstood my original post. See post above.

 

[futurehealer117]

Please note: Before anyone throws a clot about how Chiropractic and O.M.T. are not the same thing, I Know. There are subtle nuances that differentiate the two, I'm only making the comparison in the broader context of musculo-skeletal health.

I was looking over some statistics about Osteopathic Medicine and how they compare to Chiropractic. Here are some of the facts (numbers are approximate)

There are currently 55,000 Osteopathic Physicians in Practice (aacom)
There are currently 53,000 Chiropractors in practice (bureau of labor statistics)

In 1993 (I know its outdated, sorry) 30million Americans sought out "regular" chiropractic care (becomehealthynow.cm)

This is about equivalent to the total number of people who seek care from an Osteopathic Physician PERIOD.

Heres my point. Why when given all the advantages of seeing an Osteopathic Physician such as: full range musculo-skeletal care, utilization of other complimentary or alternative therapies, and of course, seeing an actual Doctor 🙄 Why do more people not seek out care for musculo-skeletal manipulations from D.O's ?

Chiropractic care is the most sought after (alternative/complimentary) treatment in the country. And as trivial as it may seem, the 23rd top rated show "Two and a Half Men" features a D.C. as a main character

So why aren't D.O.'s capitalizing on this very large market of American health care, if not for profit, then to make people more aware of the existance of this amazing branch of care?

 

[Semicolon]

Please note: Before anyone throws a clot about how Chiropractic and O.M.T. are not the same thing, I Know. There are subtle nuances that differentiate the two, I'm only making the comparison in the broader context of musculo-skeletal health.

I was looking over some statistics about Osteopathic Medicine and how they compare to Chiropractic. Here are some of the facts (numbers are approximate)

There are currently 55,000 Osteopathic Physicians in Practice (aacom)
There are currently 53,000 Chiropractors in practice (bureau of labor statistics)

In 1993 (I know its outdated, sorry) 30million Americans sought out "regular" chiropractic care (becomehealthynow.cm)

This is about equivalent to the total number of people who seek care from an Osteopathic Physician PERIOD.

Heres my point. Why when given all the advantages of seeing an Osteopathic Physician such as: full range musculo-skeletal care, utilization of other complimentary or alternative therapies, and of course, seeing an actual Doctor 🙄 Why do more people not seek out care for musculo-skeletal manipulations from D.O's ?

Chiropractic care is the most sought after (alternative/complimentary) treatment in the country. And as trivial as it may seem, the 23rd top rated show "Two and a Half Men" features a D.C. as a main character

So why aren't D.O.'s capitalizing on this very large market of American health care, if not for profit, then to make people more aware of the existance of this amazing branch of care?

I'm sorry, but using information from over 15 years ago is not a valid source for an argument. The field of osteopathic medicine has changed so drastically in those 15 years that I don't think that any values from back then can be used as a basis for the present.

Also, it's obvious that DCs are more widely known than DOs; if a person looking for an MD doesn't know about DOs, then why would a person looking for a DC know about DOs? Saying DOs need to "capitalize" on this market first means that osteopathic medicine needs to be better known to the general public, which seems to be the solution for many issues.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Please note: Before anyone throws a clot about how Chiropractic and O.M.T. are not the same thing, I Know. There are subtle nuances that differentiate the two, I'm only making the comparison in the broader context of musculo-skeletal health.

I was looking over some statistics about Osteopathic Medicine and how they compare to Chiropractic. Here are some of the facts (numbers are approximate)

There are currently 55,000 Osteopathic Physicians in Practice (aacom)
There are currently 53,000 Chiropractors in practice (bureau of labor statistics)

In 1993 (I know its outdated, sorry) 30million Americans sought out "regular" chiropractic care (becomehealthynow.cm)

This is about equivalent to the total number of people who seek care from an Osteopathic Physician PERIOD.

Heres my point. Why when given all the advantages of seeing an Osteopathic Physician such as: full range musculo-skeletal care, utilization of other complimentary or alternative therapies, and of course, seeing an actual Doctor 🙄 Why do more people not seek out care for musculo-skeletal manipulations from D.O's ?

Chiropractic care is the most sought after (alternative/complimentary) treatment in the country. And as trivial as it may seem, the 23rd top rated show "Two and a Half Men" features a D.C. as a main character

So why aren't D.O.'s capitalizing on this very large market of American health care, if not for profit, then to make people more aware of the existance of this amazing branch of care?

It's because DO = physician. There are physicians on all kinds of TV shows, it's just that shows don't waste their time trying to bring a DO in because it isn't essential to their show. Have you ever actually heard Alan refered to as a 'DC' or just a chiropractor. They also bash his job up and down, calling him not a read doctor (true) etc. Also, DCs had their prime ... and it's done. There was a time in the 80s/90s when Chiro was all the rage and they were doing well, because it's easier to become a DC, people flocked to it, and now the market it super oversaturated. Chiros make liek 80k a year, and there are probably 50 in any given town you look up. Compare this with the average doc making 160k in the midst of a huge physician shortage. If someone would like to become a Chiro bc they market better ... be my guest.

 

[Dissected]

Please note: Before anyone throws a clot about how Chiropractic and O.M.T. are not the same thing, I Know. There are subtle nuances that differentiate the two, I'm only making the comparison in the broader context of musculo-skeletal health.

I was looking over some statistics about Osteopathic Medicine and how they compare to Chiropractic. Here are some of the facts (numbers are approximate)

There are currently 55,000 Osteopathic Physicians in Practice (aacom)
There are currently 53,000 Chiropractors in practice (bureau of labor statistics)

In 1993 (I know its outdated, sorry) 30million Americans sought out "regular" chiropractic care (becomehealthynow.cm)

This is about equivalent to the total number of people who seek care from an Osteopathic Physician PERIOD.

Heres my point. Why when given all the advantages of seeing an Osteopathic Physician such as: full range musculo-skeletal care, utilization of other complimentary or alternative therapies, and of course, seeing an actual Doctor 🙄 Why do more people not seek out care for musculo-skeletal manipulations from D.O's ?

Chiropractic care is the most sought after (alternative/complimentary) treatment in the country. And as trivial as it may seem, the 23rd top rated show "Two and a Half Men" features a D.C. as a main character

So why aren't D.O.'s capitalizing on this very large market of American health care, if not for profit, then to make people more aware of the existance of this amazing branch of care?

hmm.. you bring up some interesting points.

But I have to agree with the 2 previous posts. DO's are almost always in some sort of physician specialty or primary care. I think a more valid comparison would be to compare DO's actually practicing OMM to chiropractors. There are so few nowadays, that it would be extremely difficult to market and compete with the droves of chiropractors all over the place. The focus of osteopathic medicine is not OMM. Its just a part of the bigger picture, and a field that a minority of graduates specialize in.

 

[Dissected]

Just calling out BabyKangaroo for emphasizing differences that aren't there. You misunderstood my original post. See post above.

well all you do is shuttle oxygen through the bloodstream. so there. pretty boring if you ask me. 😉

 

[futurehealer117]

The point that I'm trying to make is that if people knew there were P.C.P's who could do the same and probably more for back and joint pain then a chiropractor AND they're a Physician, why wouldn't they seek D.O's out? And you cannot honestly tell me that more D.O's in primary care wouldn't be willing to incorperate O.M.M into there practice if patients were beating down the door asking for it.

 

[BabyKangaroo]

Just calling out BabyKangaroo for emphasizing differences that aren't there. You misunderstood my original post. See post above.

Wow. Read my post again. If you still don't get it, read it again. If you still don't, read again. I clearly said D.O.=M.D. Not D.O.>M.D. And there is a difference with D.O.s. M.D.s cannot do OMM, but more schools are offering it as an elective so M.D.s can use it b/c it works. Furthermore, if you are saying D.O.s are Chiropractors (they are not), and that there isn't anything D.O.s can do that M.D.s can't, but M.D.s cannot do Chiropractic medicine, you just nullified your whole argument in your ignorance of all of these professions. Do some research, ask questions, shadow a D.O. and M.D. etc. I think you would be really informed about it then, and then your posts may be taken more seriously. Don't read a few posts on SDN, get all hyped up from an episode of Grey's Anatomy, then post these ridiculous comments. Did you even read what I wrote? I can't believe I just wasted my time even replying to your post. And hemoglobin isn't a cell.

 

[BabyKangaroo]

I just read the post I made after working all night. I must have been cranky. But seriously hemoglobin, even the D.O.s in school now that don't agree with the whole Osteopathic difference, I am sure will still attest to the fact that there are plenty of conditions a D.O. can treat manually that an M.D. cannot (assuming of course that they didn't take CME credits for OMM and don't practice it). And you cannot just read a book and do it. OMM takes practice (obviously, like anything else in medicine) and if used wisely and with good intent, is very efficacious for certain common conditions.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The point that I'm trying to make is that if people knew there were P.C.P's who could do the same and probably more for back and joint pain then a chiropractor AND they're a Physician, why wouldn't they seek D.O's out? And you cannot honestly tell me that more D.O's in primary care wouldn't be willing to incorperate O.M.M into there practice if patients were beating down the door asking for it.

There are quite a few DOs who do NMM/OMM for cash, rake up nicely. Just because you don't hear about people doing it or see them desperately marketing like chiros doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've heard of docs in NY who just kept raising their prices higher and higher to slim down on the number of patients, but they are still booked for hundreds an hour, all cash.

 

[pyropig]

In reference to the changing of the DO title, I believe this may not be the worst idea. Everyone is looking at it from a colleague to colleague point of view. Realistically in that perspective it wouldn't make a difference at all. Now from the perspective of a patient, most people just aren't educated in the differences between MD/DO, I imagine a more MD-esque title would be benificial for some cases. Especially if your in a surgical subspecialty and while the patient is looking for docs they see a DO and don't bother calling because they're not quite sure what that is, and you never get the chance to meet them, and show them your just as competent if not more so than a traditional MD. I for one will be applying to predominantly DO schools as all the DO's I have ever shadowed are phenomenal physicians, and I would love to share that title with them. Regardless of my stalwartness, this is a realistic problem, but also likely one that will become less and less an issue as more and more DO's become practicing physicians, only time will tell 🙂

 

[futurehealer117]

oops