Our Situation As Canadians At Irish Med Schools

[EdmontonOilers]

I have really looked into our options as Canadian Irish IMGs (Canadian citizens going to Irish med schools) over the past month and this is what I found our situation boils down to. I have posted this little synopsis under the thread “A Question for Upper Year Canadians in Ireland” as well (this is a great thread to read if you’re a Canadian attending an Irish med school by the way).

(1) You could possibly go back to Canada for family medicine (possibly a specialty but small chances). If you worked hard and put together a good CV you would have a great shot in a rural area for family med. There are programs outside the match in certain provinces you could apply to as well. But there is also a good shot that you would not get a spot back in Canada. Not all of us are successful in going back for FP. I don’t think it is realistic or responsible to assume you can get one of these spots even if you work hard and have good electives in Canada.

(2) You could finish your degree and possibly get an internship in Ireland. Once (and only once) you finish your internship you are certified to practice medicine in Ireland and you can branch off and practice in Australia, the UK and other English speaking parts of the EU. BUT every year there are more and more Irish citizens entering medical school and by law the government must give internships to EU nationals first. Apparently it is becoming harder and harder for Irish med schools to place their North Americans in Irish internships who want them. I have been advised by RCSI and UCD staff that it would NOT be good idea to assume that I will get one of these positions. So, like FP in Canada, I don’t think it’s responsible to assume that you can get one of these spots even if you work hard and have great marks at an Irish med school.

(3) That leaves going back to the US. This is a very, very good option and I believe that as a Canadian IMG from Ireland that works hard, does descent on the USMLEs, has a couple electives in the US, and wants a primary care specialty (ie. FP, Peds, IM, psych) you will certainly get a residency in the US on a J-1 visa. This route is essentially certain and very realistic. It is hard to get an H1-B and I don’t think you can assume that you could get one of these visas even with a great CV; therefore, you will probably be going down on a J-1. Again, no problem, a hard working Canadian will get this visa. THE PROBLEM IS, no one really knows what us Canadians are doing after finishing our residencies on the J-1. Are we getting J-1 waivers? Really, how difficult are they to get for us? MORE IMPORTANTLY, those of us that are not getting J-1 visas (and I believe there are some of us that don’t) head back to Canada for 2 years. Are we able to get back to the US after our 2 years? Are we having difficulty? Are many of us just settling for research in Canada? Some of us may be getting fellowships and working as physicians in Canada but again it would be irresponsible to consider this as a good option (see http://members.tripod.com/~donalda13/canimgexp.html). Canada has very strict regulations against IMGs even with US residencies and I know from researching the web that some successful Canadian IMGs are unsuccessful at getting positions in Canada (even when they made sure that their US residencies were equivalent in years and recognized in Canada).

So my conclusion in terms of our ability as Canadian Irish IMGs to get jobs as physicians when we finish....... Canada is a good option for FP but it is by no means a certain option and it would be irresponsible to assume you could go this route even if you worked hard and did well in your studies. Ireland is a good option for an internship, but once again I think it would be irresponsible to assume you could guarantee yourself one as a North American with the increasing amounts of Irish kids entering med school. The US is a very, very good option. You could definitely get a residency in primary care if you worked hard. But what are your chances at a J-1 waiver? No one seems to really know. What are your chances of getting back into the US after two years return of service in Canada? My gut feeling says you should be able to find something with the doctor shortage in the US, but again no one really knows. I cannot get in contact with any Canadian Irish IMGs who have completed this final step.

So after all my research I am yet to find a pathway that a hard working, successful Canadian Irish IMG (CII) could take and know with reasonable certainty that he/she would have job at the end. If you could get a Canadian residency or an Irish internship you can definitely work as a physician. But a hard working CII can not responsibly rely on either of these as solid options. In contrast, I believe a successful CII can definitely rely on a US residency on a J-1 as a great option but at this point I cannot assume that this leads to a job with reasonable certainty as I have not been able to collect any concrete evidence that Canadians are getting J-1 waivers or jobs in the US after their 2 years back in Canada. If I knew Canadians were getting back to the US after their 2 years in Canada I believe this would be the most reasonable and essentially certain route for a hard working CII.

So to be honest I am a little freaked out right now. I would be happy working in any one of these three countries (Canada, US, Ireland) because my dream is to work as a physician and where I do this is absolutely irrelevant for me. I plan on pursuing all three routes. I am very hard working and I am doing well in my studies but I cannot find any path that I could pursue that could lead me to a job in the end with reasonable certainty. I know nothing is guaranteed in life but I am not looking for a guarantee. I am looking for a route that I could be reasonably confident that I could take and get a job when Im finished if I worked really hard and did well on my exams etc. The only route that I think offers this would be the US IF someone could show me that most Canadians are getting J-1 waivers or MORE IMPORTANTLY jobs back in the US after their 2 years return of service in Canada. I think it would be in any Canadian Irish IMG’s best interest to look into this diligently. ANY HELP ON THIS ISSUE WOULD BE VERY, VERY APPRECIATED.

Thanks so much guys. This forum is great.

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[arcticmonkeys]

Sorry I don't have any constructive to say right now, but I'm totally supporting this thread - I think we need to raise awareness about this issues and let IMGs think more about it....and have people who DO know the answers let us know, yup. Or people who have connections, to ask other recent IMG grads about what they did, etc, etc....

C'mon everyone!

 

[EdmontonOilers]

The link that I included in my first post under this thread isnt working right so for those of you who are interested you can get to the appropriate web page by doing a google search on "The Ultimate Canadian International Medical Graduate Web Site." It should come up as the first link listed on the search results. Once you get to the web page scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the link "Canadian International Medical Graduate Experiences."

I think if you're a Canadian IMG you may want to have a look at this.

Thanks

 

[rl2006]

bump*

 

[Arb]

I am in correspondence with a Canadian Irish grad that is in the US on a H1b visa. He greatly recommends it over a J1.

 

[dirtymac42]

I am in correspondence with a Canadian Irish grad that is in the US on a H1b visa. He greatly recommends it over a J1.

As long as you want to stay in Ireland to do your intern year! (You need it and Step 3 to qualify for the H1b.)

 

[Arb]

You do not need to do an intern year for a H1b, only need to complete Step 3. The Canadian I am corresponding with DID NOT do an intern year in Ireland, nor an intern year anywhere else.

 

[dirtymac42]

You do not need to do an intern year for a H1b, only need to complete Step 3. The Canadian I am corresponding with DID NOT do an intern year in Ireland, nor an intern year anywhere else.

Well, ok. Did they take a year off then? It's just that the math doesn't work out. You need to have graduated to do Step 3 and by that time you'll be too late for the match and you can't match under a J1 and then change to H1b (without SERIOUS difficulty, i'm not saying it can't be done but technically it's illegal).

 

[Kev (UK)]

(2) You could finish your degree and possibly get an internship in Ireland. Once (and only once) you finish your internship you are certified to practice medicine in Ireland and you can branch off and practice in Australia, the UK and other English speaking parts of the EU. BUT every year there are more and more Irish citizens entering medical school and by law the government must give internships to EU nationals first. Apparently it is becoming harder and harder for Irish med schools to place their North Americans in Irish internships who want them. I have been advised by RCSI and UCD staff that it would NOT be good idea to assume that I will get one of these positions. So, like FP in Canada, I don’t think it’s responsible to assume that you can get one of these spots even if you work hard and have great marks at an Irish med school.

New UK employment law means that training posts in postgraduate medicine can only be offered to non-UK/ EEA citizens after it has been demonstrated that there are no UK or European citizens who can fill the position. Previously residency posts were training positions and no work permit was required. Now they are deemed to be positions of employment and therefore a work permit has to be issued. A hospital will only be granted a work permit for a non-EEA doctor if they can show that there are no suitable EEA citizens who applied for the post. Just bear this in mind.

 

[ocularphd]

If you are not UK/EU status, go cannot go directly to the UK. You must sit the PLAB exams AND the IELTS (English) exam before applying for jobs in the UK.

 

[Arb]

Well, ok. Did they take a year off then? It's just that the math doesn't work out. You need to have graduated to do Step 3 and by that time you'll be too late for the match and you can't match under a J1 and then change to H1b (without SERIOUS difficulty, i'm not saying it can't be done but technically it's illegal).

No year off.

 

[bulgethetwine]

No year off.

There is a loop hole -- if you get a program to defer your start date for residency, then you can finish med school in May, write the step 3, then do all the paperwork, blah blah blah

But I know of only *one* person who ever did this -- and it was in a IM program that was so desperate for residents, it was the only way he could do it.

ARB, it is not realistic to get an H1B without doing something for a year after graduation.

 

[bulgethetwine]

I have really looked into our options as Canadian Irish IMGs (Canadian citizens going to Irish med schools) over the past month and this is what I found our situation boils down to. I have posted this little synopsis under the thread “A Question for Upper Year Canadians in Ireland” as well (this is a great thread to read if you’re a Canadian attending an Irish med school by the way).

(1) You could possibly go back to Canada for family medicine (possibly a specialty but small chances). If you worked hard and put together a good CV you would have a great shot in a rural area for family med. There are programs outside the match in certain provinces you could apply to as well. But there is also a good shot that you would not get a spot back in Canada. Not all of us are successful in going back for FP. I don’t think it is realistic or responsible to assume you can get one of these spots even if you work hard and have good electives in Canada.

(2) You could finish your degree and possibly get an internship in Ireland. Once (and only once) you finish your internship you are certified to practice medicine in Ireland and you can branch off and practice in Australia, the UK and other English speaking parts of the EU. BUT every year there are more and more Irish citizens entering medical school and by law the government must give internships to EU nationals first. Apparently it is becoming harder and harder for Irish med schools to place their North Americans in Irish internships who want them. I have been advised by RCSI and UCD staff that it would NOT be good idea to assume that I will get one of these positions. So, like FP in Canada, I don’t think it’s responsible to assume that you can get one of these spots even if you work hard and have great marks at an Irish med school.

(3) That leaves going back to the US. This is a very, very good option and I believe that as a Canadian IMG from Ireland that works hard, does descent on the USMLEs, has a couple electives in the US, and wants a primary care specialty (ie. FP, Peds, IM, psych) you will certainly get a residency in the US on a J-1 visa. This route is essentially certain and very realistic. It is hard to get an H1-B and I don’t think you can assume that you could get one of these visas even with a great CV; therefore, you will probably be going down on a J-1. Again, no problem, a hard working Canadian will get this visa. THE PROBLEM IS, no one really knows what us Canadians are doing after finishing our residencies on the J-1. Are we getting J-1 waivers? Really, how difficult are they to get for us? MORE IMPORTANTLY, those of us that are not getting J-1 visas (and I believe there are some of us that don’t) head back to Canada for 2 years. Are we able to get back to the US after our 2 years? Are we having difficulty? Are many of us just settling for research in Canada? Some of us may be getting fellowships and working as physicians in Canada but again it would be irresponsible to consider this as a good option (see http://members.tripod.com/~donalda13/canimgexp.html). Canada has very strict regulations against IMGs even with US residencies and I know from researching the web that some successful Canadian IMGs are unsuccessful at getting positions in Canada (even when they made sure that their US residencies were equivalent in years and recognized in Canada).

So my conclusion in terms of our ability as Canadian Irish IMGs to get jobs as physicians when we finish....... Canada is a good option for FP but it is by no means a certain option and it would be irresponsible to assume you could go this route even if you worked hard and did well in your studies. Ireland is a good option for an internship, but once again I think it would be irresponsible to assume you could guarantee yourself one as a North American with the increasing amounts of Irish kids entering med school. The US is a very, very good option. You could definitely get a residency in primary care if you worked hard. But what are your chances at a J-1 waiver? No one seems to really know. What are your chances of getting back into the US after two years return of service in Canada? My gut feeling says you should be able to find something with the doctor shortage in the US, but again no one really knows. I cannot get in contact with any Canadian Irish IMGs who have completed this final step.

So after all my research I am yet to find a pathway that a hard working, successful Canadian Irish IMG (CII) could take and know with reasonable certainty that he/she would have job at the end. If you could get a Canadian residency or an Irish internship you can definitely work as a physician. But a hard working CII can not responsibly rely on either of these as solid options. In contrast, I believe a successful CII can definitely rely on a US residency on a J-1 as a great option but at this point I cannot assume that this leads to a job with reasonable certainty as I have not been able to collect any concrete evidence that Canadians are getting J-1 waivers or jobs in the US after their 2 years back in Canada. If I knew Canadians were getting back to the US after their 2 years in Canada I believe this would be the most reasonable and essentially certain route for a hard working CII.

So to be honest I am a little freaked out right now. I would be happy working in any one of these three countries (Canada, US, Ireland) because my dream is to work as a physician and where I do this is absolutely irrelevant for me. I plan on pursuing all three routes. I am very hard working and I am doing well in my studies but I cannot find any path that I could pursue that could lead me to a job in the end with reasonable certainty. I know nothing is guaranteed in life but I am not looking for a guarantee. I am looking for a route that I could be reasonably confident that I could take and get a job when Im finished if I worked really hard and did well on my exams etc. The only route that I think offers this would be the US IF someone could show me that most Canadians are getting J-1 waivers or MORE IMPORTANTLY jobs back in the US after their 2 years return of service in Canada. I think it would be in any Canadian Irish IMG’s best interest to look into this diligently. ANY HELP ON THIS ISSUE WOULD BE VERY, VERY APPRECIATED.

Thanks so much guys. This forum is great.

There is also a class action lawsuit in the works against CaRMS and the Royal College on behalf of Canadian citizens who are IMG trained who have been denied timely review of their credentials and/or been denied the ability to apply for post-residency jobs.