Over-Represented Minorities

[DoctaJay]

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I had really hoped that this thread wouldn't deteriorate into another URM/ORM thread, but here we are. Anyway, to add some actual research behind baseless opinion:

Here’s a little help for your research on AA:

Underrepresented Minorities Get in Easier: UNFAIR: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332544
MCRI battles AA in Michigan: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=331226
AA totally out of control?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324769
Who agrees with affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=323889
Amazing URM fact-oid:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306866
So when do the less qualified people get invites?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=315055
Diversity in Med School:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=262097
Howard, Moorehouse, and Meharry SOM'S....low GPAs?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=309219
affirmative action thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46604
what is URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306827
URM Status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=12020
URM status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286946
You thought we have it bad. Check this out:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286302
What is the advantge to being an URM when applying?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=285817
whats the difference between ethnicity and race?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=283152
native american-how much blood to be considered URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=281362
URM acceptance rates – confused:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=270608
My Skin Is 'White,' but I'm Gonna Claim URM Status. Any Thoughts?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=274301
Hispanic Applicants and AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235379
URM benefits???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=239656
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
AA in med:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235528
Do you think it is wrong to put myself down as a minority?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234632
ethnicity a factor in acceptance?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234441
Does being hispanic help?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=233933
Asians: ORM= really bad news?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221780
Who's this African American URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221853
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
Affirmative Action - Med School Admis:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=215366
Minority Acceptance:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=208025
Affirmative Action!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203685
Affirmative Action in Medical Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203601
Minorities in med school:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=190172
"Let Asians compete freely with white students.":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70922
Affirmative Action Again!!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=186948
Disadvantage if Asian-American male?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=182886
Interesting aa article (NYTIMES):http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=179526
Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=175977
Marginalization of average white males:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=174092
Under-represented groups:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=173587
affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=168516
Reverse affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=165859
Message to all Pre-Meds regarding AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=162406
does 1/4 URM count?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=159790
Diversity disappointment:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=155920
Am I URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=151874
Study: Too few minorities in health care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=150933
AA - thoughts on overrepresentation as well:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=141039
More on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=132594
A note about Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134799
It's sad to be asian:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134683
Not just another Affirmative Action thread.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133164
Underrepresented in Medicine and the ethnicity breakdown in the US:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119146
Some asians may have a legit reason to want URM status but...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119131
Affirmative Action and Diversity in Admissions:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95471
"Underrepresented":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=116785
Affirmative Action and Med School Application:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=111772
reply about the "problems with asians" thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=85539
Another thought on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102358
Afirmative Action and its place in MEDICINE!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102533
Why Is an Affirmative Action Debate Moved From Pre-Allo:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102369
for URMs (and ORMs) : serious discussion.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53999
The Problem with AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96949
AA: Why does everyone get so worked up?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96133
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95297
I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=86457
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=87760
Historically Black Medical Schools:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=78969
why do we have AA for grad school??:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=76640
retire affirmative action thread?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=75569
Why Asian American Students Succeed:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74452
We are neglecting the meaningful questions relating to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74149
The official AAAAAA thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74168
An ORM who sides with the URM folks.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71199
Rallying my fellow URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68499
AA the thread to end all threads....:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73478
AA and nonURM minorities:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73161
If you like/dislike AA, watch Dateline RIGHT NOW:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71384
AA Solution? Need feedback.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71935
Sobering realities and statistics of AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71823
Why URM's should NOT worry about the Supreme Courts' decision.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70811
Why Are Black Students Lagging?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71103
Applying Disadvantaged- Affirmative Action for UC Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68067
Why do WHITES complain about AA???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66957
Rich URM's vs. poor whites and Asians:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65768
AAMC president on diversity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=67316
Why is diversity of ethnicity sooo important?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66935
A solution to selection by race...Individualism:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65919
An Alternative to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66037
I am sick of people complaining about AA and URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65889
Minorities in Medicine:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=62673
am I a URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=61718
Ignore Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46603
Why do non-URM envy the so-called "advantage" the URM have for admissions?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=48465
CNN AA Poll:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56293
What are your most recent feeling towards the debate about Affirmative Action?come in:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56307
Chances as a ORM??? UGHHH:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53809
underepresented minority edge:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=51799
U.Michigan: Lack of Diversity?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=45309
revealing ethnic identity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=43576
Do Adcoms compare GPAs and MCATs by URM status?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=320954
RACISM, Foriegn MED Students/Doctors and the REASON's WHY:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=317813
Different playing field for URMs: MCAT and GPA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313272
Justification to admit URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313510
opinion on URM..repeat? dont care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=372527
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MEDICAL SCHOOL MATRCULANTS BY RACE AND ETHNICITY (2004)
White=62.1%
Asian= 18.6%
Hispanic= 7.0%
Black= 6.5%
Native American= 0.3%
Multiple Race= 3.0%
Other= 1.0%
Foreign= 1.3%

U.S. PHYSICIANS BY RACE AND ETHNICITY (2004)
White=36.7%
IMG=23.6%
Unknown=27.6%
Native American= 0.3%
Black= 3.3%
Hispanic/Latino= 2.8%
Asian= 5.7%


FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

1) Why aren’t Asians considered for AA?

Because the purpose of AA is to increase the number of physicians that are underrepresented in MEDICINE. As you can see above, Asians are not underrepresented in medicine.

2) Why would the AAMC desire to increase the amount of physicians underrepresented in medicine?

I. Minority physicians are more willing to practice in underserved population areas
-Effects of Affirmative Action in Medical Schools: A Study of the Class of
1975, 313 New Eng. J. Med. 1519, 1524 (1985)
- Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995)

II. With an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them

III. Patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors
- Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000)

IV. More minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities.
-The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002)

V. A diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors.
- An Evidentiary Framework for Diversity as a Compelling Interest in Higher Education, 109 Harv. L. Rev. 1357, 1372-73 (1996)

3) Why not just base AA on socio-economic status?

Do you remember the section on AMCAS where you can check off whether you are disadvantaged or not? That is where socioeconomic status is taken into consideration.

4) Is there a URM check box?

No. But you are allowed to designate whether you are Caucasian, Black, Asian, Indian, etc.

5) Isn’t AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don’t blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases. Remember…AA is not about you, it is about the overall healthcare for Americans.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

And I quote from the AAMC, “The consideration of race and ethnicity in medical school admissions has not, as some critics suggest, led to a less competent physician workforce. The vast majority of minority medical students graduate from medical school and go on to pass their license examinations. See Jordan J. Cohen, Finishing the Bridge to Diversity, 72 Academic Medicine 103, 108 (1997); Questions and Answers, supra, at 3 (noting that, by 1997, 87% of minority medical students who matriculated in 1990 had graduated from medical school; and that, by 1996, 88% of African-American and 95% of Hispanic medical students had passed the three-part national medical school examination). These achievements are the ultimate benchmarks of medical competency. Minority applicants admitted to medical schools succeed, and with this success comes the benefits of diversity to our society as a whole.”

Also, remember Dr. Ben Carson (and he is clearly NOT the only successful minority doctor) would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child’s brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf) . Of course, today the black enrollment in medical school still hovers around 6.0%, but affirmative action is STILL working, because the AAMC states, and I quote, “Relying on MCAT scores and GPA’s alone would have disastrous consequences for minority enrollment in medical school.” This shows that if AA was stopped, minority enrollment would immediately drop, showing that AA in continually maintaining minority enrollment in medical school.


8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the non-minority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-year period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future specialty or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Why not just make applicants sign a contract promising that they will go to work in underserved areas, rather than hoping that Johnny URM will work in that area compared to taking a competitive dermatology residency somewhere?

And I quote from the AAMC, “No “race-neutral” factor can effectively substitute for the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting “economic hardship” for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, would not address the pressing need to increase the number of minority physicians being trained in America. Studies confirm that the relationship between a physician’s race or gender and his or her service to minority and other underserved populations was significantly more pronounced and consistent than the relationship between a physician’s socioeconomic background and his or her service to these same population groups. See Cantor, supra, at 173,176, 178. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less: The data thus confirms that targeting low-income applicants would not get more minority candidates into medical school and into medicine.”

11) What will happen if AA is banned from medical schools?
Let’s look to California for our example; and I quote from the AAMC, “In California, which banned affirmative action by way of Proposition 209, the enrollment of underrepresented minorities in the state’s medical schools dropped after the ban was put in place and remains at inadequate levels. …the total number of African American, Hispanic and Native American applicants to the five University of California medical schools dropped from 4,165 in 1995-96 to 2,593 in 2001-2002; and that, “for the 2001-02 school year, the five UC medical schools enrolled an average of four African Americans, nine Hispanics, and no Native Americans each.”

12) Why do URMs score lower than non-minorities on standardized tests? Are they just innately more stupid?

No. And I quote from the AAMC, “It is well documented that underrepresented minorities – African Americans, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto
Ricans and Native Americans — generally do not perform as well on the MCAT as the rest of the population. See Nettles & Millett, supra, at 159. For example, in the year 2001, the average MCAT scores for white applicants were 9.1 in Verbal Reasoning, 9.2 in Physical Sciences and 9.5 in Biological Sciences; in contrast, the average scores for underrepresented minorities were 6.9, 7.0 and 7.3, respectively. A similar phenomenon is
seen in GPA’s. This gap is not well understood, but some educators believe that the reasons for lower performance include the “lower quality of schools that minority students attend, stereotypic lower expectations of teachers for minority students, combined with stereotypic lower expectations of students for themselves;” the lingering legacy of discrimination; lower education and academic achievement among minority families; and lower income levels. Questions and Answers, supra, at 4.


13)Does AA confer an advantage to applicants in the medical school process?
OF COURSE. If AA did not increase minority enrollment, it would not be used. In 2001, a total of 15,336 non-URMs were accepted into medical school. If AA was not used in the application process in 2001, then 16,667 non-URMs would have been accepted. In 2001, in the presence of AA, 1,868 URM applicants were accepted. If AA wasn’t used in the process, it is “projected” that only 537 URMs would have been accepted in 2001. But once again, it must be clearly stated that the AAMC primarily cares about the overall healthcare availability for ALL Americans; not whether you “felt” shafted in the application process. So if it benefits society, it will continue to be used.

 

[SamaraMorgan]

complaining about the overrepresentation of a group - such as asians, maybe the OP is an anti-asianite.

I sure hope not, I'm 50% Asian (and female).

 

[xylem29]

I sure hope not, I'm 50% Asian (and female).

ok - i'll take your word for it lol.

but it is entirely possible for someone to be resentful and even discriminating against their own ethnicity.

 

[gujuDoc]

I'll preface this by saying that I am caucasian...

I have no problem with giving some special consideration to under-represented minorities and economically disadvantaged applicants. After hundreds of years of slavery of african-americans and killing native americans and then stealing their land, I think the least we can do is give them a little leniency when it comes to medical school applications.

I don’t have the same issue you seem to with the over-representation of asian minorities in medical schools. As long as they aren’t given special consideration because they are minorities ever though they are not under-represented, which they aren’t I don’t see what the problem is. You take the same MCAT, and theoretically the same opportunities to take courses, do research, and get involved in organizations as the asian students do. Its up to every person to take advantage of those opportunities and if it just so happens that a higher proportion of the asian population are good applicants then congratulations to them.

Honestly, I think the reason why Asians are “over-represented” in medical schools in that there is a greater emphasis in the asian community on higher education – and by this I mean graduate school, medical school, etc, not just an undergraduate degree. So if you want a greater percentage of white students to get into medical schools then you need to figure out a way to encourage white students to be more ambitious in their educational careers. I’m not trying to make a blanket statement about white students, certainly there are a large number of very ambitious and intelligent white student, just that in my perception asian students tend to be more dedicated to their education than their white counterparts. And that is my $0.02. (Hope I haven’t started a war here)

I especially agree with the last paragraph of your post.

 

[xylem29]

I had really hoped that this thread wouldn't deteriorate into another URM/ORM thread, but here we are. Anyway, to add some actual research behind baseless opinion:

Here’s a little help for your research on AA:

Underrepresented Minorities Get in Easier: UNFAIR: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332544
MCRI battles AA in Michigan: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=331226
AA totally out of control?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324769
Who agrees with affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=323889
Amazing URM fact-oid:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306866
So when do the less qualified people get invites?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=315055
Diversity in Med School:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=262097
Howard, Moorehouse, and Meharry SOM'S....low GPAs?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=309219
affirmative action thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46604
what is URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306827
URM Status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=12020
URM status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286946
You thought we have it bad. Check this out:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286302
What is the advantge to being an URM when applying?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=285817
whats the difference between ethnicity and race?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=283152
native american-how much blood to be considered URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=281362
URM acceptance rates – confused:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=270608
My Skin Is 'White,' but I'm Gonna Claim URM Status. Any Thoughts?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=274301
Hispanic Applicants and AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235379
URM benefits???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=239656
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
AA in med:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235528
Do you think it is wrong to put myself down as a minority?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234632
ethnicity a factor in acceptance?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234441
Does being hispanic help?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=233933
Asians: ORM= really bad news?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221780
Who's this African American URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221853
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
Affirmative Action - Med School Admis:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=215366
Minority Acceptance:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=208025
Affirmative Action!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203685
Affirmative Action in Medical Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203601
Minorities in med school:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=190172
"Let Asians compete freely with white students.":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70922
Affirmative Action Again!!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=186948
Disadvantage if Asian-American male?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=182886
Interesting aa article (NYTIMES):http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=179526
Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=175977
Marginalization of average white males:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=174092
Under-represented groups:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=173587
affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=168516
Reverse affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=165859
Message to all Pre-Meds regarding AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=162406
does 1/4 URM count?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=159790
Diversity disappointment:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=155920
Am I URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=151874
Study: Too few minorities in health care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=150933
AA - thoughts on overrepresentation as well:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=141039
More on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=132594
A note about Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134799
It's sad to be asian:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134683
Not just another Affirmative Action thread.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133164
Underrepresented in Medicine and the ethnicity breakdown in the US:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119146
Some asians may have a legit reason to want URM status but...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119131
Affirmative Action and Diversity in Admissions:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95471
"Underrepresented":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=116785
Affirmative Action and Med School Application:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=111772
reply about the "problems with asians" thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=85539
Another thought on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102358
Afirmative Action and its place in MEDICINE!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102533
Why Is an Affirmative Action Debate Moved From Pre-Allo:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102369
for URMs (and ORMs) : serious discussion.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53999
The Problem with AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96949
AA: Why does everyone get so worked up?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96133
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95297
I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=86457
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=87760
Historically Black Medical Schools:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=78969
why do we have AA for grad school??:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=76640
retire affirmative action thread?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=75569
Why Asian American Students Succeed:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74452
We are neglecting the meaningful questions relating to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74149
The official AAAAAA thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74168
An ORM who sides with the URM folks.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71199
Rallying my fellow URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68499
AA the thread to end all threads....:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73478
AA and nonURM minorities:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73161
If you like/dislike AA, watch Dateline RIGHT NOW:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71384
AA Solution? Need feedback.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71935
Sobering realities and statistics of AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71823
Why URM's should NOT worry about the Supreme Courts' decision.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70811
Why Are Black Students Lagging?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71103
Applying Disadvantaged- Affirmative Action for UC Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68067
Why do WHITES complain about AA???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66957
Rich URM's vs. poor whites and Asians:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65768
AAMC president on diversity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=67316
Why is diversity of ethnicity sooo important?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66935
A solution to selection by race...Individualism:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65919
An Alternative to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66037
I am sick of people complaining about AA and URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65889
Minorities in Medicine:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=62673
am I a URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=61718
Ignore Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46603
Why do non-URM envy the so-called "advantage" the URM have for admissions?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=48465
CNN AA Poll:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56293
What are your most recent feeling towards the debate about Affirmative Action?come in:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56307
Chances as a ORM??? UGHHH:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53809
underepresented minority edge:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=51799
U.Michigan: Lack of Diversity?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=45309
revealing ethnic identity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=43576
Do Adcoms compare GPAs and MCATs by URM status?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=320954
RACISM, Foriegn MED Students/Doctors and the REASON's WHY:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=317813
Different playing field for URMs: MCAT and GPA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313272
Justification to admit URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313510
opinion on URM..repeat? dont care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=372527
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEDICAL SCHOOL MATRCULANTS BY RACE AND ETHNICITY (2004)
White=62.1%
Asian= 18.6%
Hispanic= 7.0%
Black= 6.5%
Native American= 0.3%
Multiple Race= 3.0%
Other= 1.0%
Foreign= 1.3%

U.S. PHYSICIANS BY RACE AND ETHNICITY (2004)
White=36.7%
IMG=23.6%
Unknown=27.6%
Native American= 0.3%
Black= 3.3%
Hispanic/Latino= 2.8%
Asian= 5.7%


FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

1) Why aren’t Asians considered for AA?

Because the purpose of AA is to increase the number of physicians that are underrepresented in MEDICINE. As you can see above, Asians are not underrepresented in medicine.

2) Why would the AAMC desire to increase the amount of physicians underrepresented in medicine?

I. Minority physicians are more willing to practice in underserved population areas
-Effects of Affirmative Action in Medical Schools: A Study of the Class of
1975, 313 New Eng. J. Med. 1519, 1524 (1985)
- Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995)

II. With an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them

III. Patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors
- Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000)

IV. More minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities.
-The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002)

V. A diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors.
- An Evidentiary Framework for Diversity as a Compelling Interest in Higher Education, 109 Harv. L. Rev. 1357, 1372-73 (1996)

3) Why not just base AA on socio-economic status?

Do you remember the section on AMCAS where you can check off whether you are disadvantaged or not? That is where socioeconomic status is taken into consideration.

4) Is there a URM check box?

No. But you are allowed to designate whether you are Caucasian, Black, Asian, Indian, etc.

5) Isn’t AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don’t blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases. Remember…AA is not about you, it is about the overall healthcare for Americans.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

And I quote from the AAMC, “The consideration of race and ethnicity in medical school admissions has not, as some critics suggest, led to a less competent physician workforce. The vast majority of minority medical students graduate from medical school and go on to pass their license examinations. See Jordan J. Cohen, Finishing the Bridge to Diversity, 72 Academic Medicine 103, 108 (1997); Questions and Answers, supra, at 3 (noting that, by 1997, 87% of minority medical students who matriculated in 1990 had graduated from medical school; and that, by 1996, 88% of African-American and 95% of Hispanic medical students had passed the three-part national medical school examination). These achievements are the ultimate benchmarks of medical competency. Minority applicants admitted to medical schools succeed, and with this success comes the benefits of diversity to our society as a whole.”

Also, remember Dr. Ben Carson (and he is clearly NOT the only successful minority doctor) would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child’s brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf) . Of course, today the black enrollment in medical school still hovers around 6.0%, but affirmative action is STILL working, because the AAMC states, and I quote, “Relying on MCAT scores and GPA’s alone would have disastrous consequences for minority enrollment in medical school.” This shows that if AA was stopped, minority enrollment would immediately drop, showing that AA in continually maintaining minority enrollment in medical school.


8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the non-minority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-year period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future specialty or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Why not just make applicants sign a contract promising that they will go to work in underserved areas, rather than hoping that Johnny URM will work in that area compared to taking a competitive dermatology residency somewhere?

And I quote from the AAMC, “No “race-neutral” factor can effectively substitute for the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting “economic hardship” for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, would not address the pressing need to increase the number of minority physicians being trained in America. Studies confirm that the relationship between a physician’s race or gender and his or her service to minority and other underserved populations was significantly more pronounced and consistent than the relationship between a physician’s socioeconomic background and his or her service to these same population groups. See Cantor, supra, at 173,176, 178. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less: The data thus confirms that targeting low-income applicants would not get more minority candidates into medical school and into medicine.”

11) What will happen if AA is banned from medical schools?
Let’s look to California for our example; and I quote from the AAMC, “In California, which banned affirmative action by way of Proposition 209, the enrollment of underrepresented minorities in the state’s medical schools dropped after the ban was put in place and remains at inadequate levels. …the total number of African American, Hispanic and Native American applicants to the five University of California medical schools dropped from 4,165 in 1995-96 to 2,593 in 2001-2002; and that, “for the 2001-02 school year, the five UC medical schools enrolled an average of four African Americans, nine Hispanics, and no Native Americans each.”

12) Why do URMs score lower than non-minorities on standardized tests? Are they just innately more stupid?

No. And I quote from the AAMC, “It is well documented that underrepresented minorities – African Americans, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto
Ricans and Native Americans — generally do not perform as well on the MCAT as the rest of the population. See Nettles & Millett, supra, at 159. For example, in the year 2001, the average MCAT scores for white applicants were 9.1 in Verbal Reasoning, 9.2 in Physical Sciences and 9.5 in Biological Sciences; in contrast, the average scores for underrepresented minorities were 6.9, 7.0 and 7.3, respectively. A similar phenomenon is
seen in GPA’s. This gap is not well understood, but some educators believe that the reasons for lower performance include the “lower quality of schools that minority students attend, stereotypic lower expectations of teachers for minority students, combined with stereotypic lower expectations of students for themselves;” the lingering legacy of discrimination; lower education and academic achievement among minority families; and lower income levels. Questions and Answers, supra, at 4.


13)Does AA confer an advantage to applicants in the medical school process?
OF COURSE. If AA did not increase minority enrollment, it would not be used. In 2001, a total of 15,336 non-URMs were accepted into medical school. If AA was not used in the application process in 2001, then 16,667 non-URMs would have been accepted. In 2001, in the presence of AA, 1,868 URM applicants were accepted. If AA wasn’t used in the process, it is “projected” that only 537 URMs would have been accepted in 2001. But once again, it must be clearly stated that the AAMC primarily cares about the overall healthcare availability for ALL Americans; not whether you “felt” shafted in the application process. So if it benefits society, it will continue to be used.

Add this one to your list and thanks for jumping in again...i think i'm going to save this just in case you stop using sdn in the future, i'll continue for you.

 

[LizzyM]

I sure hope not, I'm 50% Asian (and female).

You say that you've been admitted to a school and then you look at the racial breakdown of that school. There are a large proportion of Asians at the school. You are 50% Asian.


What's the point of this thread?

 

[lakersbaby]

You say that you've been admitted to a school and then you look at the racial breakdown of that school. There are a large proportion of Asians at the school. You are 50% Asian.


What's the point of this thread?

WORD

 

[gujuDoc]

I think part of that has to do with the fact that we have access to better educational resources then the average black person I know or avg. latino to some extent.

If anything Asians are fu<ked by this process. Many Asians aspire to be doctors (cultural influence, familial influence, etc... you name it), but no top private would ever let their school be over run by Asians. Honestly, if they were being fair, there would be slightly more Asians overrepresenting even more.

Asians have to have a slightly better MCAT, on average, than even Whites to get into the medical schools (http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2006/mcatgparaceeth.htm). Reason? B/c there are so many, too fu<kin many, applying. It sucks. I hate it. I am South Asian and it pisses me off b/c when Adcomm's are meeting they are ''diversifying'' their class and you know they'd never let any class become more than 15% South Asian.

That means in say a class of 100, I am fighting for at 1 of at most 10 seats (remember no Adcomm would ever let all 15 or so South Asians be male, they would like a mixture of us by sex, if you will). See my perspective?

Also Asians have a 43% acceptance race as a race... Whites are at 46%.

Ah GHAd why do I do this. ah.

 

[SamaraMorgan]

What's the point of this thread?

I wasn't trying to point out my personal situation, just the situation in general. If I were a white male people would immediately judge that based on the original post data. I'm also partly Hawaiian, why not bring that into the picture. 🙄

The numbers are just too hard to ignore. Post #51 is pretty good, but are those really all of the reasons? Why is this process so lopsided?

 

[Shake_yabooties]

I dunno but i know i'm getting ****ed by this process

 

[thesmartazz]

Since most people tend to spend most of their time with people who are like-minded and have similar backgrounds, I don't see how a diverse class really adds that much perspective. Especially in medical school, where the only interaction one may have with others in their class is in lab or lecture.

With a medical class of somewhere between 80 and 160 students, you cannot really afford to only spend time with like-minded people. You attend all of your classes with the same people; you may even live with them. You go to small group with an even smaller subgroup of people. It would be something else if you graduated from medical school without interacting with almost every member of your class. Also, I hope that I don't go to any medical school where my only interaction with people is in lab or class... That would be a shame.

That said, there have been studies done showing that the primary source of cultural education in medical school is from peers. I can only speak for myself, but I think that this fact is even true during the college experience. Sitting down and discussing issues with friends and other acquaintances has been a very important source of education for me during the past four years.

 

[LizzyM]

I wasn't trying to point out my personal situation, just the situation in general. If I were a white male people would immediately judge that based on the original post data. I'm also partly Hawaiian, why not bring that into the picture. 🙄

The numbers are just too hard to ignore. Post #51 is pretty good, but are those really all of the reasons? Why is this process so lopsided?

The demographic characteristics of medical students nationally very much reflect their proportions in the applicant pool. Some schools attract larger proportions of candidates from one or more ethnic/racial groups because the applicants perceive that they have a good shot at that school (the school does not severely cap admissions by race), that they will have a larger peer group (to avoid being the token ___ in the class), or because the school is close to family.

The racial/ethnic distribution of the class may vary by school but I think that these distributions are driven as much by the choices made by applicants and those who have multiple offer -- moreso than by deliberate admissions committee decisions.

 

[LizzyM]

Since most people tend to spend most of their time with people who are like-minded and have similar backgrounds, I don't see how a diverse class really adds that much perspective. Especially in medical school, where the only interaction one may have with others in their class is in lab or lecture.

But in schools that use small group discussions, the diversity of backgrounds and experiences does add to a students fund of knowledge about other cultures and customs some of which are very relevent to understanding patients' perspectives.

 

[NCF145]

With a medical class of somewhere between 80 and 160 students, you cannot really afford to only spend time with like-minded people. You attend all of your classes with the same people; you may even live with them. You go to small group with an even smaller subgroup of people. It would be something else if you graduated from medical school without interacting with almost every member of your class. Also, I hope that I don't go to any medical school where my only interaction with people is in lab or class... That would be a shame.

That said, there have been studies done showing that the primary source of cultural education in medical school is from peers. I can only speak for myself, but I think that this fact is even true during the college experience. Sitting down and discussing issues with friends and other acquaintances has been a very important source of education for me during the past four years.

I learned quite a bit from others in college, but only during classes that were taught socratically and while living in the dorms. I can also see people learning from others in college when it is a liberal arts education where the point of your education is to learn different philosophies and ways of thinking about issues. However, in medical school the focus is not about learning other cultures or different values. It is about learning the basic sciences, their application to the medical field and the practice of medicine. When I said that you only interact with people in lab or lecture, I did not mean that one goes home to study and is basically a hermit. You will have friends from class that you hang out with during your time off. I was merely saying that since most people socialize with others who are generally similar to them, the majority of your interaction with others who are different would be in a classroom setting. IMO, the majority of your learning about different cultures will be during an ethics class and/or your rotations and residency. I have learned more about different belief systems and cultures while working for one year in a hospital than I did throughout my 4 years in college.

Also, where did you find those studies? I would like to read them.

 

[NCF145]

But in schools that use small group discussions, the diversity of backgrounds and experiences does add to a students fund of knowledge about other cultures and customs some of which are very relevent to understanding patients' perspectives.

I agree here, especially since small group discussions are socratic.

 

[Eric Lindros]

And of course, institutions such as slavery and forced relocation have no legacies, right? Give me a break. It's 2007, and we should be ashamed of how institutional and de facto racism are still rampant in our society. Think about how recently in history schools were even integrated in the U.S. Many of us have parents who were born before that happened. Now tell me that it's 2007 and that America is some type of ideal society.

It is 2007, but nothing will ever be ideal, mainly because people will always have something to complain about. I never said anything about anything being ideal. But to sit here and assert that we should all feel ashamed of ourselves is just ridiculous and stupid in my opinion. People of our generation were the ones who fixed a lot of that crap, and we should feel proud for that. We should not feel ashamed for things that happened before we were born. Yes, things at one point were pretty bad for everyone, by I myself don't owe anyone anything.


So go ahead and feel guilty all you want, but don't be telling others that they should too.

 

[chriserc]

Look, you all can throw all the statistics around you want, give me all your liberal bull crap reasons why diversity 'helps' me at an institution (you will never convince me that studying with someone of a different race is any better than studying with someone of my race. I want to study with the person who is the smartest), and tell me that if medicals schools don't consider URMS that no one is going to go help people in "underdeserved areas" but it still dosen't change the fact that I worked my butt off in undergrad, made the most of my opportunites, had better grades, a better MCAT score, and am on the whole more 'qualified' for medical school but this URM is going to be accepted over me becasue we all need to be politically correct and no one wants to get sued! That is asinine. I have black friends who are pre-med and they resent the fact that many people may look down on them, thinking that the only reason they got into medical school is because they are black. When in reality they are actually good students and ideal canidates.
The problem with affirmative action is that it is no longer a form of outreach creating equal opportunity (that was its original intent), but an active effort to improve opportunities, which in its practice often means adopting racial preferences. It leads to unfair treatment of whites and Asians and it strengthens presumptions of black inferiority.
What about the fact that many minorities may wonder whether their acceptance was based on personal merit or because of an affirmative action policy. Even if the student did not benefit from any affirmative action policies, they may still think they may have benefited. This devalues many minority achievements.
I do agree that perhaps the underyling problem that causes many URMS to have lower GPA's and MCAT scores is poor schooling. So why not create programs that fight poverty, poor family life, and poor primary and secondary schooling. Stop the problem at the source.
Also there is the fact that the value of education is different in different communities. As has been previously stated asian families ephasize higher education. Where as many blacks want to end up being rappers or athletes. This is obviously not how everyone of a race feels but all I am saying is that medschool classes race percantages might not mirror the percentages in the regular population because different races have different aspirations.

 

[Eric Lindros]

O jeez. I've never heard this before. However, let me say this: If your ancestors stole a horse and they are still using it does that make you a thief?

No

 

[RollSkins]

O jeez. I've never heard this before. However, let me say this: If your ancestors stole a horse and they are still using it does that make you a thief?

Well I imagine that the horse would have died along time ago.

What about the old saying: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."

I guess doesn't that necessarily apply to medical school. URMS aren't just let into medical school they still have to be qualified. In any case I think that targeting primary and secondary education quality is the way to go.

 

[LizzyM]

Look, you all can throw all the statistics around you want, give me all your liberal bull crap reasons why diversy 'helps' me at an institution (you will never convince me that studying with someone of a different race is any better than studying with someone of my race. I want to study with the person who is the smartest),

And who is the smartest when it comes to the knowledge of the beliefs, attitudes and practices of black women with regard to physical activity? The student in the classroom who grew up in the black community in the Deep South was the only student in my classroom who could address that topic and shed some light on one aspect of the issues of health disparities.

I worked my butt off in undergrad, made the most of my opportunites, had better grades, a better MCAT score, and am on the whole more 'qualified' for medical school but this URM is going to be accepted over me

That sort of arrogance will kill your chances which might otherwise be good.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is no longer a form of outreach creating equal opportunity (that was its original intent), but an active effort to improve opportunities, which in its practice often means adopting racial preferences. It leads to unfair treatment of whites and Asians and it strengthens presumptions of black inferiority.

Looking at the most recent data I have handy, 30.8% of all applicants are white, non-Hispanic* white males and 32.9% of all matriculants are white, non-Hispanic males. The numbers are so huge, the proportion of white males who matriculate may actually indicate that a better chance at matriculating than would be expected if matriculants were chosen at random. I'm just too lazy at the moment to do a test of significance.

As I pointed out last summer, if there were no URM, there would still be 14,000 non-URM who would not be selected for admission to medical school in a given cycle.


*Hispanics can be of any race and so the census bureau uses white, non-Hispanic as a designation of what most of us would call "white".

 

[chriserc]

And who is the smartest when it comes to the knowledge of the beliefs, attitudes and practices of black women with regard to physical activity? The student in the classroom who grew up in the black community in the Deep South was the only student in my classroom who could address that topic and shed some light on one aspect of the issues of health disparities.



That sort of arrogance will kill your chances which might otherwise be good.



Looking at the most recent data I have handy, 30.8% of all applicants are white, non-Hispanic* white males and 32.9% of all matriculants are white, non-Hispanic males. The numbers are so huge, the proportion of white males who matriculate may actually indicate that a better chance at matriculating than would be expected if matriculants were chosen at random. I'm just too lazy at the moment to do a test of significance.

As I pointed out last summer, if there were no URM, there would still be 14,000 non-URM who would not be selected for admission to medical school in a given cycle.


*Hispanics can be of any race and so the census bureau uses white, non-Hispanic as a designation of what most of us would call "white".

I do agree with you that people of different races can give different perspectives that are helpful but is that applicant better than the asian kid who studied his butt off and got better grades? If we are going to start giving out acceptances based on people who can give different perspectives why not accept white kids who grew up in a trailer park and can give us an idea of what that is like and how to deal with their lack of medical treatment?

I am not trying to be arragont, sorry if came across that way. I don't mean that I am better than that person by any means but I do have a stronger application as far as grades and MCAT go. I just think that many URMS can get in with lower scores. There in lies one of the problems with affirmative action! It is the fact that many non-URMS may resent URMS for taking a seat which could have been given to their buddy who was more 'qualified'. This may not be the actual case but it is the perception of it that is the problem.

 

[LizzyM]

I do agree with you that people of different races can give different perspectives that are helpful but is that applicant better than the asian kid who studied his butt off and got better grades?

I am not trying to be arragont, sorry if came across that way but I just think that many URMS can get in with lower scores. There in lies the problem with affirmative action! It is the fact that many non-URMS may resent URMS for taking a seat which could have been given to their buddy who was more 'qualified'. This may not be the actual case but it is the perception of it that is the problem.

Grades are not everything, scores are not everything. Admission isn't a prize for the best academic record.

In 2006, 17,370 people matriculated to medical school. Of those, 1,425 were URM. That's 8.2%, far less than the proportion of URM in the population (which is why we call the URM).

You are crying that your black classmates think that people perceive them as affirmative action admissions and less qualified but you are making that assumption. The problem is your perception. Educate yourself and educate your friends.

 

[thesmartazz]

So go ahead and feel guilty all you want, but don't be telling others that they should too.

I don't feel a personal sense of guilt for the cruddy state of affairs in many sectors of society. The shame that I talk about is a sense of unease that society at large should feel about how far we have to go towards equality in many spheres. This unease should be an impetus for action and a reason why we collectively shouldn't be complacent; hopefully, some things still *feel* wrong and compel us to fight structural barriers to equality.

Nevertheless, to assert that slavery is a "been there, done that" type of entity in American history is an action so myopic that I have no problem arguing that a reality check is appropriate...

 

[psipsina]

Grades are not everything, scores are not everything. Admission isn't a prize for the best academic record.

In 2006, 17,370 people matriculated to medical school. Of those, 1,425 were URM. That's 8.2%, far less than the proportion of URM in the population (which is why we call the URM).

You are crying that your black classmates think that people perceive them as affirmative action admissions and less qualified but you are making that assumption. The problem is your perception. Educate yourself and educate your friends.

As usual I agree with you Lizzy. Medschools want students with the potential to be great physicians. There is so much more to this than qualities that can be tested on the MCAT. There is a reason its called the art of medicine.

 

[thesmartazz]

If we are going to start giving out acceptances based on people who can give different perspectives why not accept white kids who grew up in a trailer park and can give us an idea of what that is like and how to deal with their lack of medical treatment?

This happens all the time. You can mark disadvantaged status and talk about such experiences in your personal statement. You can bring this unique perspective up at an interview. If I were interviewing, I'd be sure that mention this during the admissions committee meeting or in my interview notes, emphasizing that this candidate would add a very valuable addition to the class.

Also, schools aren't *starting* to give acceptances based on people who can give different perspectives; colleges and medical schools have *always* done this. Our perspectives and our experiences are what set us apart... As many people have mentioned before, an SAT or MCAT score only says so much about a person.

 

[thesmartazz]

Also, where did you find those studies? I would like to read them.

The study that I'm talking about was posted on one of the 9028323 prior threads about AA. I think that DoctaJay posted a ton of them above. Some of them are good, provocative reading. I personally get really fired up when I think about race politics, and one day, I decided to sit down and read through a bunch of the threads instead of writing a paper 🙂...

 

[Eric Lindros]

As usual I agree with you Lizzy. Medschools want students with the potential to be great physicians. There is so much more to this than qualities that can be tested on the MCAT. There is a reason its called the art of medicine.

lol this makes no sense, sorry. I mean, you have to agree then that a higher MCAT is a better indicator of "great physician potential" You do realize that the average matriculant MCAT average is around 30, and not 25 (around the average) right? Or is it just coincidence that all the potential great physicians have above average/high MCAT scores? 😉

 

[LizzyM]

lol this makes no sense, sorry. I mean, you have to agree then that a higher MCAT is a better indicator of "great physician potential" You do realize that the average matriculant MCAT average is around 30, and not 25 (around the average) right? Or is it just coincidence that all the potential great physicians have above average/high MCAT scores? 😉

The MCAT is not an indicator of "great physician" potential. It is a predictor of board scores and one who does very poorly on the MCAT may be unable to pass the licensing exam and never become a physician at all. So, the MCAT weeds out those who are poor risks for admission to medical school (we don't want to admit those who will be unable to acheive licensure). After you weed out, there are far more applicants meeting the minimum qualifications than there are seats. Then the best get picked with the understanding that choosing a class that will help the school acheive its mission is the adcom's goal.

 

[medtrial82]

x

 

[psipsina]

The MCAT is not an indicator of "great physician" potential. It is a predictor of board scores and one who does very poorly on the MCAT may be unable to pass the licensing exam and never become a physician at all. So, the MCAT weeds out those who are poor risks for admission to medical school (we don't want to admit those who will be unable to acheive licensure). After you weed out, there are far more applicants meeting the minimum qualifications than there are seats. Then the best get picked with the understanding that choosing a class that will help the school acheive its mission is the adcom's goal.

what she said 👍

 

[Eric Lindros]

The MCAT is not an indicator of "great physician" potential. It is a predictor of board scores and one who does very poorly on the MCAT may be unable to pass the licensing exam and never become a physician at all. So, the MCAT weeds out those who are poor risks for admission to medical school (we don't want to admit those who will be unable to acheive licensure). After you weed out, there are far more applicants meeting the minimum qualifications than there are seats. Then the best get picked with the understanding that choosing a class that will help the school acheive its mission is the adcom's goal.

Still doesn't make sense. Why do all of the supposive "great" schools like Harvard and Penn have such higher MCAT scores. Are they also just using the minimum requirement and then basing it on who is going to be a great physician or meet the schools standard? I mean, these places pride themselves on having the best hospitals, staff, etc. They also have the highest MCAT scores. I'm just putting two and two together.

 

[LizzyM]

Still doesn't make sense. Why do all of the supposive "great" schools like Harvard and Penn have such higher MCAT scores. Are they also just using the minimum requirement and then basing it on who is going to be a great physician or meet the schools standard? I mean, these places pride themselves on having the best hospitals, staff, etc. They also have the highest MCAT scores. I'm just putting two and two together.

Different schools have different missions. Some are out to prepare the next generation of academic physicians who combine research/teaching/clinical care. They are going to look for applicants who have had significant research experiences as undergrads as well as leadership experience and some clinical exposure ("smelling patients"). These super achievers tend to do well on the MCAT. The other thing... once you have a fairly high proportion of high achievers in the class you have to worry about the fate of one or two with test-taking skills far below those of the rest of the class. In schools where anyone two standard deviations below the mean flunks the exam you don't have too much of a problem if the small proportion who flunk an exam are a different group every time such that no one flunks more than one exam and no one fails to achieve an adequate score for the entire year. When you have someone who just can't pass a single exam you have wasted a seat and, as is usually the case, you give them a second chance the following year which means that one less new applicant will matriculate in the next cycle. So, some of the high flying schools will make cut points somewhat higher than what is considered the minimum "talent" needed to pass the boards. If they do admit students who may be at "academic risk" then they often provide additional assistance in the form of mentoring, tutoring and peer support to help these students succeed.

Who is a great physician?? Great at what? It takes all kinds to make a world. What is your measure of success?

 

[Eric Lindros]

Different schools have different missions. Some are out to prepare the next generation of academic physicians who combine research/teaching/clinical care. They are going to look for applicants who have had significant research experiences as undergrads as well as leadership experience and some clinical exposure ("smelling patients"). These super achievers tend to do well on the MCAT. The other thing... once you have a fairly high proportion of high achievers in the class you have to worry about the fate of one or two with test-taking skills far below those of the rest of the class. In schools where anyone two standard deviations below the mean flunks the exam you don't have too much of a problem if the small proportion who flunk an exam are a different group every time such that no one flunks more than one exam and no one fails to achieve an adequate score for the entire year. When you have someone who just can't pass a single exam you have wasted a seat and, as is usually the case, you give them a second chance the following year which means that one less new applicant will matriculate in the next cycle. So, some of the high flying schools will make cut points somewhat higher than what is considered the minimum "talent" needed to pass the boards. If they do admit students who may be at "academic risk" then they often provide additional assistance in the form of mentoring, tutoring and peer support to help these students succeed.

Who is a great physician?? Great at what? It takes all kinds to make a world. What is your measure of success?

What does a typical admcom consider the minimum mcat score that is not "at risk"

 

[MildDip]

;

 

[TMP-SMX]

Well I imagine that the horse would have died along time ago.

What about the old saying: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."

I guess doesn't that necessarily apply to medical school. URMS aren't just let into medical school they still have to be qualified. In any case I think that targeting primary and secondary education quality is the way to go.

The horse=land. Of course this is all irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[AnEyeLikeMars]

African Americans and Native americans were not the only people enslaved. South asians were forced into slavery in the British Caribbeans among other places. many asian families suffered at the hands of slavery but this is never mentioned.

Med school AA is not about apologizing for slavery. It's about bringing physician demographics more in line with societal demographics. URM does NOT mean oppressed, it means underrepresented.

 

[LizzyM]

What does a typical admcom consider the minimum mcat score that is not "at risk"

This is going to vary by school and to some extent may vary by the adcom member's experience.

Let me liken this to choosing football players to play wide receiver. Speed is necessary as is agility. Someone who has a shot at playing for one of the top Division I teams in the nation is going to need to be quicker than someone whose goal is to play at a Division III school. Someone who couldn't make the team at Division I might be a star in Division III. So, coaches will have different minimums that they are looking for when the guys run 40 yd dashes. It is the same with adcoms. I'd rather not give my minimums as it is very dependent on my location.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Look, you all can throw all the statistics around you want, give me all your liberal bull crap reasons why diversity 'helps' me at an institution (you will never convince me that studying with someone of a different race is any better than studying with someone of my race. I want to study with the person who is the smartest), and tell me that if medicals schools don't consider URMS that no one is going to go help people in "underdeserved areas" but it still dosen't change the fact that I worked my butt off in undergrad, made the most of my opportunites, had better grades, a better MCAT score, and am on the whole more 'qualified' for medical school but this URM is going to be accepted over me becasue we all need to be politically correct and no one wants to get sued! That is asinine. I have black friends who are pre-med and they resent the fact that many people may look down on them, thinking that the only reason they got into medical school is because they are black. When in reality they are actually good students and ideal canidates.
The problem with affirmative action is that it is no longer a form of outreach creating equal opportunity (that was its original intent), but an active effort to improve opportunities, which in its practice often means adopting racial preferences. It leads to unfair treatment of whites and Asians and it strengthens presumptions of black inferiority.
What about the fact that many minorities may wonder whether their acceptance was based on personal merit or because of an affirmative action policy. Even if the student did not benefit from any affirmative action policies, they may still think they may have benefited. This devalues many minority achievements.
I do agree that perhaps the underyling problem that causes many URMS to have lower GPA's and MCAT scores is poor schooling. So why not create programs that fight poverty, poor family life, and poor primary and secondary schooling. Stop the problem at the source.
Also there is the fact that the value of education is different in different communities. As has been previously stated asian families ephasize higher education. Where as many blacks want to end up being rappers or athletes. This is obviously not how everyone of a race feels but all I am saying is that medschool classes race percantages might not mirror the percentages in the regular population because different races have different aspirations.

Well, that sounds like an easy fix! I can't believe no one's ever thought of THAT before! Why don't you get right on that & get back to us when you've got it taken care of....

Until we hear back from you (in, what, another few generations?), how are we supposed to fairly address these disparities today?

 

[thesmartazz]

African Americans and Native americans were not the only people enslaved. South asians were forced into slavery in the British Caribbeans among other places. many asian families suffered at the hands of slavery but this is never mentioned.

Colonialism sucks...

Lisa Lowe (at UC Irvine) and Viranjini Munasinghe (Cornell) study indentured laborer populations from East Asian and South Asian descent (respectively) in the Caribbean. If you want more people to learn about these injustices, support the expansion of ethnic studies - and Asian American Studies in particular!

 

[gujuDoc]

As usual I agree with you Lizzy. Medschools want students with the potential to be great physicians. There is so much more to this than qualities that can be tested on the MCAT. There is a reason its called the art of medicine.

Exactly. I'd also argue that the person with the highest MCAT score is not always the person at the top of their class in med school or highest on the USMLE.

 

[LizzyM]

Exactly. I'd also argue that the person with the highest MCAT score is not always the person at the top of their class in med school or highest on the USMLE.

And I'd add that being at the top of the class or having the highest USMLE may not make one the best doctor for a particular situation.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Exactly. I'd also argue that the person with the highest MCAT score is not always the person at the top of their class in med school or highest on the USMLE.

True, but likely also true of the person with the lowest MCAT score. It can't be argued that there's no general correlation.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

True, but likely also true of the person with the lowest MCAT score. It can't be argued that there's no general correlation.

thank you for pointing this out. the general correlation between the mcat and usmle does exist (or the aamc wouldnt use it would they?)

 

[christian15213]

I think the arguement that URM's should have to practice in underserved areas is a CROCK of junk too... When I figure the field I want to be in it is going to be because that is what I will love and that is what I feel I could best serve my community the best at. Not because I am a URM and need to be where URM's are?

The inventor of heart surgery was black and not even allowed / could make it into medical school. Dr. Vivian Thomas. what does that say about your mcat and your URM placement of being only where URM's are.

 

[dutchman]

I think the arguement that URM's should have to practice in underserved areas is a CROCK of junk too... When I figure the field I want to be in it is going to be because that is what I will love and that is what I feel I could best serve my community the best at. Not because I am a URM and need to be where URM's are?

The inventor of heart surgery was black and not even allowed / could make it into medical school. Dr. Vivian Thomas. what does that say about your mcat and your URM placement of being only where URM's are.

There is evidence out there showing that people tend to trust physicians of their race more than physicians from a different race. You might think that as a society we might have moved beyond that crap, but that is the situation today. So if I were you, I will think real hard about helping my community first, before jumping into some obscure all white town. Or you might just find yourself mysteriously being dragged to court more often than your peers, among many other stupid things that could happen.

 

[gujuDoc]

And I'd add that being at the top of the class or having the highest USMLE may not make one the best doctor for a particular situation.

Agreed.

 

[gujuDoc]

thank you for pointing this out. the general correlation between the mcat and usmle does exist (or the aamc wouldnt use it would they?)

No one denied that there is a correlation, but that doesn't mean the correlation is 1 even if it is positive. That is my point. i know someone, albeit not a minority, who got a 26 on his MCAT and went on to be at the top of his class in med school.

I also have read many stories of people on SDN who have said they had severely high scores in undergrad with MCAT and GPA but struggled in med school.

Likewise, I've heard of stories of people who did not do so hot in undergrad at first but then learned how to focus properly and ended up doing better then some of their high scorer med student classmates.

 

[gogiantsss]

this may be comparing apples to oranges but the majority of CEO's/execs are predominantly white males.
Shouldnt the minorities and females be outraged about this?

 

[gujuDoc]

I think the arguement that URM's should have to practice in underserved areas is a CROCK of junk too... When I figure the field I want to be in it is going to be because that is what I will love and that is what I feel I could best serve my community the best at. Not because I am a URM and need to be where URM's are?

The inventor of heart surgery was black and not even allowed / could make it into medical school. Dr. Vivian Thomas. what does that say about your mcat and your URM placement of being only where URM's are.

Dude we already had this discussion before. Just let it go.

Oh and no one said you have to live in the GHETTO!! But truth be told patients look up doctor's information and people even in a rich town will choose someone on some sort of information about their background. I've been guilty of doing it myself before but it wasn't about race so much as I preferred older experienced doctors to someone younger. I'm sure a lot of other people do the same thing too and when they look on their insurance and see someone of their race they might be more likely to go to that person with hope that they will be able to connect with that person better being that they are from similar backgrounds. That's just how it is. get a grip already. you sound like you hate the fact that you are black and want to do anything to separate yourself from your african american counterparts.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

And I'd add that being at the top of the class or having the highest USMLE may not make one the best doctor for a particular situation.

What situation do you speak of? As a patient, I always wanted the doctor who graduated at the top of his class.