Over-Represented Minorities

[j-weezy]

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There is evidence out there showing that people tend to trust physicians of their race more than physicians from a different race.

Well said again. You must have read the same study/article as the physician in my family because thus far, you've both said the same points!

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Dude we already had this discussion before. Just let it go.

Oh and no one said you have to live in the GHETTO!! But truth be told patients look up doctor's information and people even in a rich town will choose someone on some sort of information about their background. I've been guilty of doing it myself before but it wasn't about race so much as I preferred older experienced doctors to someone younger. I'm sure a lot of other people do the same thing too and when they look on their insurance and see someone of their race they might be more likely to go to that person with hope that they will be able to connect with that person better being that they are from similar backgrounds. That's just how it is. get a grip already. you sound like you hate the fact that you are black and want to do anything to separate yourself from your african american counterparts.

Wow, that sounds harsh. I didn't agree with the guy's post, either, but ????????

Please, Guju, take a deep breath!😉

 

[gujuDoc]

What situation do you speak of? As a patient, I always wanted the doctor who graduated at the top of his class.

As a patient you don't know who was at the top of their class!!! You know only where they went to med school and residency and whether they have malpractice suits against them and where they went to school and residency.

 

[gujuDoc]

Wow, that sounds harsh. I didn't agree with the guy's post, either, but ????????

Please, Guju, take a deep breath!😉

Did you see the other thread he started?? The one that had to be closed?? That's the only reason I reacted as such. This is getting annoying cuz he keeps posting the same thing over and over and I tried to stay calm last time but its annoying cuz he keeps doing the same things again and again.

 

[DrBowtie]

As a patient you don't know who was at the top of their class!!! You know only where they went to med school and residency and whether they have malpractice suits against them and where they went to school and residency.

Based upon that info, you can get a decent idea of where they stood. You could always ask them if they were AOA.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

As a patient you don't know who was at the top of their class!!! You know only where they went to med school and residency and whether they have malpractice suits against them and where they went to school and residency.

AOA via DOP

So, again, what situations would a patient want a doctor who did not graduate at the top of his class?

 

[BigRedPremed]

I think the arguement that URM's should have to practice in underserved areas is a CROCK of junk too... When I figure the field I want to be in it is going to be because that is what I will love and that is what I feel I could best serve my community the best at. Not because I am a URM and need to be where URM's are?

The inventor of heart surgery was black and not even allowed / could make it into medical school. Dr. Vivian Thomas. what does that say about your mcat and your URM placement of being only where URM's are.

You do realize that a lot of affirmative action's justification is predicated on the fact that many URM's have said they would like to return to underserved areas and practice there, right? No one is going to force you to practice in the ghetto but if you are going to reap the rewards of affirmative action (which are substantial), then you should be at least willing to tolerate the assumption that, at some point in your life, you would be willing to help out others of your own race in an underserved community.

 

[gujuDoc]

Based upon that info, you can get a decent idea of where they stood. You could always ask them if they were AOA.

So let me get this straight, a person is really going to call a physician who has been in practice for say 20+ years and successful and ask them if they were AOA in med school over the phone to determine whether they'd see this doctor even though the doctor has been very successful even if they weren't AOA or the very top rank of their class. Yeah right!!! I highly doubt any normal patient who themselves are not in medicine would even question that.

Only someone who is a doctor themselves or an aspiring doctor that actually knows what AOA, etc. means would go so far. I don't think I've ever heard a person do something so ridiculous. And I'd disagree that you could figure out who was at the top of their class based solely on that information I gave above. A person could be a HMS grad and HMS residency trained and not have been the top of their class.

You could also ask a doctor their board scores, they won't be require to tell you and if they are successful who's to say they need you telling them they weren't at the top of their class means they aren't worthy to treat them when they have enough patients going to them.

 

[gujuDoc]

AOA via DOP

So, again, what situations would a patient want a doctor who did not graduate at the top of his class?

Again, once you are in med school you are all going to be physicians if you pass the boards and everything else. Who is at top is irrelevant because everyone will go into different fields.

 

[enviromed21]

Dude we already had this discussion before. Just let it go.

Oh and no one said you have to live in the GHETTO!! But truth be told patients look up doctor's information and people even in a rich town will choose someone on some sort of information about their background. I've been guilty of doing it myself before but it wasn't about race so much as I preferred older experienced doctors to someone younger. I'm sure a lot of other people do the same thing too and when they look on their insurance and see someone of their race they might be more likely to go to that person with hope that they will be able to connect with that person better being that they are from similar backgrounds. That's just how it is. get a grip already. you sound like you hate the fact that you are black and want to do anything to separate yourself from your african american counterparts.

I didn't pick up on this at all. I think christian was implying that she(or he) would prefer to work in an area which she(or he) is truley passionate for instead of having people bombard her/him with expectations simply because she/he is a urm.

On a side note, we live in a society where there are many negative associations with being black, as I'm sure there are negative associations with any race. Yes it's true that some people exhibit a self-hate complex, but I didn't see that in christian's post. 🙂

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Did you see the other thread he started?? The one that had to be closed?? That's the only reason I reacted as such. This is getting annoying cuz he keeps posting the same thing over and over and I tried to stay calm last time but its annoying cuz he keeps doing the same things again and again.

Agreed, he's an annoying little **** -- but his arguments are generally so poorly thought out as to merit only minimal, if any, consideration. You are a well-spoken and entertaining contributor on these forums & I just hate to see some idiot upset you. Ignore him, he's a loser.🙂

 

[Tired Pigeon]

So let me get this straight, a person is really going to call a physician who has been in practice for say 20+ years and successful and ask them if they were AOA in med school over the phone to determine whether they'd see this doctor even though the doctor has been very successful even if they weren't AOA or the very top rank of their class. Yeah right!!! I highly doubt any normal patient who themselves are not in medicine would even question that.

Only someone who is a doctor themselves or an aspiring doctor that actually knows what AOA, etc. means would go so far. I don't think I've ever heard a person do something so ridiculous. And I'd disagree that you could figure out who was at the top of their class based solely on that information I gave above. A person could be a HMS grad and HMS residency trained and not have been the top of their class.

You could also ask a doctor their board scores, they won't be require to tell you and if they are successful who's to say they need you telling them they weren't at the top of their class means they aren't worthy to treat them when they have enough patients going to them.

This reminds me of the old joke: what do you call the guy who graduated last in his class from medical school? Doctor.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Again, once you are in med school you are all going to be physicians if you pass the boards and everything else. Who is at top is irrelevant because everyone will go into different fields.

Even if they both passed the boards, I think there is a substantial difference between an AOA Johns Hopkins graduate and a doctor who graduated from the Hollywood Upstairs Medical College.

Again, in what situations would you choose Dr. Nick over the better qualified Julius Hibbert?

 

[diosa428]

Look, you all can throw all the statistics around you want, give me all your liberal bull crap reasons why diversity 'helps' me at an institution (you will never convince me that studying with someone of a different race is any better than studying with someone of my race. I want to study with the person who is the smartest), and tell me that if medicals schools don't consider URMS that no one is going to go help people in "underdeserved areas" but it still dosen't change the fact that I worked my butt off in undergrad, made the most of my opportunites, had better grades, a better MCAT score, and am on the whole more 'qualified' for medical school but this URM is going to be accepted over me becasue we all need to be politically correct and no one wants to get sued! That is asinine. I have black friends who are pre-med and they resent the fact that many people may look down on them, thinking that the only reason they got into medical school is because they are black. When in reality they are actually good students and ideal canidates.
The problem with affirmative action is that it is no longer a form of outreach creating equal opportunity (that was its original intent), but an active effort to improve opportunities, which in its practice often means adopting racial preferences. It leads to unfair treatment of whites and Asians and it strengthens presumptions of black inferiority.
What about the fact that many minorities may wonder whether their acceptance was based on personal merit or because of an affirmative action policy. Even if the student did not benefit from any affirmative action policies, they may still think they may have benefited. This devalues many minority achievements.
I do agree that perhaps the underyling problem that causes many URMS to have lower GPA's and MCAT scores is poor schooling. So why not create programs that fight poverty, poor family life, and poor primary and secondary schooling. Stop the problem at the source.
Also there is the fact that the value of education is different in different communities. As has been previously stated asian families ephasize higher education. Where as many blacks want to end up being rappers or athletes. This is obviously not how everyone of a race feels but all I am saying is that medschool classes race percantages might not mirror the percentages in the regular population because different races have different aspirations.

So how are you assuming that you're a better candidate than these URMs that are "taking your spot" if you yourself have URM friends that you claim are really smart and deserving of their spots? Seems to me that you are one of those judgemental jerks that your friends hate.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

So how are you assuming that you're a better candidate than these URMs that are "taking your spot" if you yourself have URM friends that you claim are really smart and deserving of their spots? Seems to me that you are one of those judgemental jerks that your friends hate.

Even pro-AA organizations like the AAMC have stated that about 1,331 seats/year are taken away from better qualified applicants in order to achieve what they think is a greater good. I think those 1,331 applicants have every right to be upset.

 

[psipsina]

AOA via DOP

So, again, what situations would a patient want a doctor who did not graduate at the top of his class?

I can think of many. For my internist I'd prefer the doc with the better bedside manner rather than the doc who got AOA. For a surgeon I'd be more interested if they are board certified or were the chief resident than if they were AOA. As a lay person I went more by word of mouth reputation than anything else and I think this is often the case. Little jimmy breaks his arm and after mom gets him splinted at the ER she calls aunt betty who tells her about the great orthopod she saw last year who did a great job with her broken ankle. . . etc.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

This reminds me of the old joke: what do you call the guy who graduated last in his class from medical school? Doctor.

Someone who may have trouble matching? Someone who may have to limit his/her options to family practice or something similarly less competitive?

come on now.

 

[diosa428]

Even pro-AA organizations like the AAMC have stated that about 1,331 seats/year are taken away from better qualified applicants in order to achieve what they think is a greater good. I think those 1,331 applicants have every right to be upset.

Yeah, but how do you know you're one of those "better qualified" candidates? How do you know that at every school that you were rejected from, there was an URM that was "less qualified" than you that got a spot? You don't. Less than stellar applicants come from all races, and maybe you're one of them - MAYBE you should consider working on your application instead of whining. (BTW, by "you", I am writing in the 2nd person, not directly accusing Ryo-Ohki of anything).

Really, the point of my post was to point out that the poster's comments are hypocritical and perhaps he needs to think about the situation a little bit more.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Someone who may have trouble matching? Someone who may have to limit his/her options to family practice or something similarly less competitive?

come on now.

Oh, come on Spatulas, I'm just trying to lighten things up. It was getting a bit tense in here.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

Oh, come on Spatulas, I'm just trying to lighten things up. It was getting a bit tense in here.

I was just being a douche-bag for no reason 😀

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

I can think of many. For my internist I'd prefer the doc with the better bedside manner rather than the doc who got AOA. For a surgeon I'd be more interested if they are board certified or were the chief resident than if they were AOA. As a lay person I went more by word of mouth reputation than anything else and I think this is often the case. Little jimmy breaks his arm and after mom gets him splinted at the ER she calls aunt betty who tells her about the great orthopod she saw last year who did a great job with her broken ankle. . . etc.

Yes, personality defects and career achievements are important factors to consider. Besides the fact that a doctor who graduated at the top of his class is more likely to achieve more in his career, what does any of this have to do with picking a doctor who graduated at the bottom of his class over an AOA doctor?

 

[Tired Pigeon]

I was just being a douche-bag for no reason 😀

That's the spirit I'm looking for -- thank you, sir!

 

[psipsina]

Yes, personality defects and career achievements are important factors to consider. Besides the fact that a doctor who graduated at the top of his class is more likely to achieve more in his career, what does any of this have to do with picking a doctor who graduated at the bottom of his class over an AOA doctor?

please point out some proof that class rank correlates with success in a career? the only correlation I can think of is the liklihood of matching a more competitive specialty (but we are usually choosing between docs within a specialty so that's irrelevant to this discussion) or matching into a more prestigious residency program which is usually more about academic reputation than things that matter to your patients. Is there data to support that class rank correlates to likelihood to be boarded, or having better surgical stats? I think alot of the things that make a great surgeon aren't measured by class rank at all, such as level headedness, great hands & hand-eye coordination, stamina . ..

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Great Thread guys!!! we should send them URMS back to Africa after a quick stop in latin America... This is a white country darn it! Do you know how many chickens would be saved if we sent them back???As far as the Asians are concerned the womens can stay but send the men back home!!!!

 

[LizzyM]

I think the arguement that URM's should have to practice in underserved areas is a CROCK of junk too...

This is America. No one is going to tell you that you can or can't practice in a given location (provided you are licensed to practice in that State). Go where you please.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

please point out some proof that class rank correlates with success in a career? the only correlation I can think of is the liklihood of matching a more competitive specialty (but we are usually choosing between docs within a specialty so that's irrelevant to this discussion) or matching into a more prestigious residency program which is usually more about academic reputation than things that matter to your patients. Is there data to support that class rank correlates to likelihood to be boarded, or having better surgical stats? I think alot of the things that make a great surgeon aren't measured by class rank at all, such as level headedness, great hands & hand-eye coordination, stamina . ..

I think AOA membership and Step 1 scores measure an applicant's ability to learn and their work ethic. If I were a residency director, I would use these criteria rather than judgments about "great hands & hand-eye coordination" to pick our nation's future surgeons.

So yes, given two medical students who want to be surgeons, the AOA 240 Step 1 is more likely to be a great, successful surgeon than the bottom of the class 182 Step 1. Do you disagree?

PS: You don't need great hands to be a surgeon. It's more of repetition and practice than natural talent.

 

[MSTPbound]

Great Thread guys!!! we should send them URMS back to Africa after a quick stop in latin America... This is a white country darn it! Do you know how many chickens would be saved if we sent them back???As far as the Asians are concerned the womens can stay but send the men back home!!!!

Most of the chickens would just keep running things the way they have been for the past 500 years. 😀

 

[LizzyM]

The question to me is when wouldn't I want a doctor who was top of his class. This is not who will be chosen to a particular specialty, etc. Let me tell you, when I had a kidney infection and needed to see someone immediately, I wasn't asking who was AOA. I needed a confirmatory lab test (the symptoms were classic) and a prescription. Likewise when I was hit by a car and had some leg pain. It didn't take a genius to order & read an X-ray and put my leg in a brace and I wasn't doctor shopping from the back of the ambulance.

Most routine care can be delivered by any licensed physician working within his/her scope of practice. In fact, I suspect that some of the most brilliant get a bit bored taking care of the routine stuff: I can recall the rejoicing when yeast infection medication went to OTC (over the counter) because caring for women with these infections was 😴 For routine care, the "softer" attributes are more important: bedside manner, convenience, etc.

 

[psipsina]

I think AOA membership and Step 1 scores measure an applicant's ability to learn and their work ethic. If I were a residency director, I would use these criteria rather than judgments about "great hands & hand-eye coordination" to pick our nation's future surgeons.

Of course thats how you are going to pick residents, the other qualities aren't evaluated before residency so all you have to go on is scores and ranks and some recommendations. In your surgical rotation during medschool you don't really get to do anything other than retract and suture so there is no way to know who is going to perform under pressure or have the natural talent.

So yes, given two medical students who want to be surgeons, the AOA 240 Step 1 is more likely to be a great, successful surgeon than the bottom of the class 182 Step 1. Do you disagree?

Thats not what we are arguing. We are arguing if we would choose our doctors (in instances where we get to choose, which as Lizzy has pointed out is often not the case) based on their class rank or would be more interested in things that aren't graded in medschool. I would be more interested in personality, procedural skill, surgical stats, achievements within the specialty like being board certified etc. You have yet to proove that the surgeons who were highest ranked in their classes are the more successful surgeons.

PS: You don't need great hands to be a surgeon. It's more of repetition and practice than natural talent.

This isn't true for all specialties. Their is some innate talent that is necessary to be one of the greats within surgical specialties such as vascular or cardiothoracic. The difference between a good surgeon and a great surgeon in these fields is often a matter of innate talent. All sugeons get the same amount of practice during their residency, since they made it into surgery I think it is safe to assume that they are intelligent and have a great work ethic, so the things that are going to separate the good surgeon from the great surgeon are things that aren't measured before residency like performance under pressure and innate talent.

 

[xylem29]

I think the arguement that URM's should have to practice in underserved areas is a CROCK of junk too... When I figure the field I want to be in it is going to be because that is what I will love and that is what I feel I could best serve my community the best at. Not because I am a URM and need to be where URM's are?

The inventor of heart surgery was black and not even allowed / could make it into medical school. Dr. Vivian Thomas. what does that say about your mcat and your URM placement of being only where URM's are.

If you call inventing a specific surgical procedure "inventing heart surgery" then ok....

 

[BlahtoThis]

Everybody cares so much about race and skin color. Blah. I think the white guy in the inner city going to the same school as the black guy with the same disadvantages should get the same consideration. And I really don't feel that the black guy who grew up in a million dollar household deserves more consideration than the white next door neighbor.

We talk about URM and social disadvantages and the like. However, even within these categories, there are advantaged and disadvantaged people. Unfortunately, sometimes the advantaged people within these subgroups may be able to capitalize on this perception of "URM" and "diversifying" medicine.

Maybe we can adjust merit for social advantages irrespective of race to determine if somebody qualifies over another person?

Also, if two people have the same advantages, some people I've heard counter with the excuse that the "URM" had to encounter possible racism and their forebears weren't as advantaged so they deserve special consideration. This was by far the most racist argument I've EVER heard (coming from a friend of mine who would count as a URM probably makes it a bit worse). Blacks and hispanics, given the same opportunities as a white or Asian kid, have the capability to achieve just as much as them.

I think we should be color blind. I also think we have to recognize when people overcome certain obstacles to get to where they are and to achieve what they have (like an Asian or Hispanic kid who just moved to the US a few years ago and yet learned the language and succeeded in spite of this disadvantage, or like a kid of any color growing up in what would be considered a "lower socioeconomic class" and so maybe didn't have access to the same educational opportunities).

If people want to talk about what's wrong with how this all works, let's talk about the NBA recruiting kids straight out of high school (most of whom are minorities). Does anybody think this sets a good example for youth in terms of the importance of higher education (or any education for that matter)? This is totally off topic but it's just my way of bringing up the point that arguments about things like admission on the basis of race setting a good example for the community are flawed because there are too many inconsistencies in the way society works. If you want change, the first thing to do isn't trying to force percentile-meeting medical school admissions.

 

[xylem29]

Everybody cares so much about race and skin color. Blah. I think the white guy in the inner city going to the same school as the black guy with the same disadvantages should get the same consideration. And I really don't feel that the black guy who grew up in a million dollar household deserves more consideration than the white next door neighbor.

We talk about URM and social disadvantages and the like. However, even within these categories, there are advantaged and disadvantaged people. Unfortunately, sometimes the advantaged people within these subgroups may be able to capitalize on this perception of "URM" and "diversifying" medicine.

Maybe we can adjust merit for social advantages irrespective of race to determine if somebody qualifies over another person?

Also, if two people have the same advantages, some people I've heard counter with the excuse that the "URM" had to encounter possible racism and their forebears weren't as advantaged so they deserve special consideration. This was by far the most racist argument I've EVER heard (coming from a friend of mine who would count as a URM probably makes it a bit worse). Blacks and hispanics, given the same opportunities as a white or Asian kid, have the capability to achieve just as much as them.

I think we should be color blind. I also think we have to recognize when people overcome certain obstacles to get to where they are and to achieve what they have (like an Asian or Hispanic kid who just moved to the US a few years ago and yet learned the language and succeeded in spite of this disadvantage, or like a kid of any color growing up in what would be considered a "lower socioeconomic class" and so maybe didn't have access to the same educational opportunities).

If people want to talk about what's wrong with how this all works, let's talk about the NBA recruiting kids straight out of high school (most of whom are minorities). Does anybody think this sets a good example for youth in terms of the importance of higher education (or any education for that matter)? This is totally off topic but it's just my way of bringing up the point that arguments about things like admission on the basis of race setting a good example for the community are flawed because there are too many inconsistencies in the way society works. If you want change, the first thing to do isn't trying to force percentile-meeting medical school admissions.

here dude - it's not simply about disadvantages...

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

1) Why aren’t Asians considered for AA?

Because the purpose of AA is to increase the number of physicians that are underrepresented in MEDICINE. As you can see above, Asians are not underrepresented in medicine.

2) Why would the AAMC desire to increase the amount of physicians underrepresented in medicine?

I. Minority physicians are more willing to practice in underserved population areas
-Effects of Affirmative Action in Medical Schools: A Study of the Class of
1975, 313 New Eng. J. Med. 1519, 1524 (1985)
- Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995)

II. With an ever increasing minority population, more minority physicians are needed to serve them

III. Patient satisfaction is integral to health care, and minority patients are more satisfied with minority doctors
- Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000)

IV. More minority physicians yields more health care data from minority populations that helps in researching specific diseases plaguing these communities.
-The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002)

V. A diverse medical school class creates culturally competent doctors.
- An Evidentiary Framework for Diversity as a Compelling Interest in Higher Education, 109 Harv. L. Rev. 1357, 1372-73 (1996)

3) Why not just base AA on socio-economic status?

Do you remember the section on AMCAS where you can check off whether you are disadvantaged or not? That is where socioeconomic status is taken into consideration.

4) Is there a URM check box?

No. But you are allowed to designate whether you are Caucasian, Black, Asian, Indian, etc.

5) Isn’t AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don’t blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases. Remember…AA is not about you, it is about the overall healthcare for Americans.

6) Can I trust a doctor who was admitted to medical school through AA?

And I quote from the AAMC, “The consideration of race and ethnicity in medical school admissions has not, as some critics suggest, led to a less competent physician workforce. The vast majority of minority medical students graduate from medical school and go on to pass their license examinations. See Jordan J. Cohen, Finishing the Bridge to Diversity, 72 Academic Medicine 103, 108 (1997); Questions and Answers, supra, at 3 (noting that, by 1997, 87% of minority medical students who matriculated in 1990 had graduated from medical school; and that, by 1996, 88% of African-American and 95% of Hispanic medical students had passed the three-part national medical school examination). These achievements are the ultimate benchmarks of medical competency. Minority applicants admitted to medical schools succeed, and with this success comes the benefits of diversity to our society as a whole.”

Also, remember Dr. Ben Carson (and he is clearly NOT the only successful minority doctor) would never be where he is without affirmative action (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf). Would you trust your child’s brain tumor to be extracted by him? Probably.

7) Has affirmative action worked?

Yes. In a study done by the University of Michigan (although its dated); affirmative action has worked. In the 1970s blacks made up only 2.7% of the 37,690 enrolled medical students. By 1977, blacks comprised 6.0% of the enrolled 60,039 medical students (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf) . Of course, today the black enrollment in medical school still hovers around 6.0%, but affirmative action is STILL working, because the AAMC states, and I quote, “Relying on MCAT scores and GPA’s alone would have disastrous consequences for minority enrollment in medical school.” This shows that if AA was stopped, minority enrollment would immediately drop, showing that AA in continually maintaining minority enrollment in medical school.


8) Will black physicians return to black communities?

Yes. They serve predominantly black communities even when they are trained at non-minority medical schools. Also, research has shown that the non-minority peers of black medical students practice in predominantly white communities. (http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch7.pdf)

9) Would a race neutral medical school admissions policy produce graduates who would tend to go into underserved areas?

NO. One study shows that a race-neutral AA program produces a quite different outcome. During the 20-year period of 1968 to 1987 the University of California at Davis admitted 20% of its students, a total of 356 as special consideration admissions. Special admissions were defined as a race-neutral group that included students with less than a GPA of 3.0 (4.0 scale) and/or an MCAT average score less than 10 for the 4 test subscores; this group was matched with students admitted under regular admission criteria.

The special group contained 33% who did not meet the minimum GPA for regular admissions, 44% who did not meet minimum MCAT scores, and 23% who met neither. In background the special admissions students were 35% women; 46% non-Hispanic Whites; 42.7% URM in the categories of Black, Native American, Mexican American, mainland Puerto Rican; and 11% Asian and minority groups not included in the previous categories. Among the regularly admitted students, only 4% were URM students. Graduation rates were the SAME for special admission and other students, nor was there a difference in their postgraduate training choices, their specialty certification status, or their description of patients served. This indicates that race-neutral affirmative action based on lower GPA and/or MCAT scores does not predict future specialty or medical practice experience. (Davidson and Lewis 1997).

10) Why not just make applicants sign a contract promising that they will go to work in underserved areas, rather than hoping that Johnny URM will work in that area compared to taking a competitive dermatology residency somewhere?

And I quote from the AAMC, “No “race-neutral” factor can effectively substitute for the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting “economic hardship” for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, would not address the pressing need to increase the number of minority physicians being trained in America. Studies confirm that the relationship between a physician’s race or gender and his or her service to minority and other underserved populations was significantly more pronounced and consistent than the relationship between a physician’s socioeconomic background and his or her service to these same population groups. See Cantor, supra, at 173,176, 178. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less: The data thus confirms that targeting low-income applicants would not get more minority candidates into medical school and into medicine.”

11) What will happen if AA is banned from medical schools?
Let’s look to California for our example; and I quote from the AAMC, “In California, which banned affirmative action by way of Proposition 209, the enrollment of underrepresented minorities in the state’s medical schools dropped after the ban was put in place and remains at inadequate levels. …the total number of African American, Hispanic and Native American applicants to the five University of California medical schools dropped from 4,165 in 1995-96 to 2,593 in 2001-2002; and that, “for the 2001-02 school year, the five UC medical schools enrolled an average of four African Americans, nine Hispanics, and no Native Americans each.”

12) Why do URMs score lower than non-minorities on standardized tests? Are they just innately more stupid?

No. And I quote from the AAMC, “It is well documented that underrepresented minorities – African Americans, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto
Ricans and Native Americans — generally do not perform as well on the MCAT as the rest of the population. See Nettles & Millett, supra, at 159. For example, in the year 2001, the average MCAT scores for white applicants were 9.1 in Verbal Reasoning, 9.2 in Physical Sciences and 9.5 in Biological Sciences; in contrast, the average scores for underrepresented minorities were 6.9, 7.0 and 7.3, respectively. A similar phenomenon is
seen in GPA’s. This gap is not well understood, but some educators believe that the reasons for lower performance include the “lower quality of schools that minority students attend, stereotypic lower expectations of teachers for minority students, combined with stereotypic lower expectations of students for themselves;” the lingering legacy of discrimination; lower education and academic achievement among minority families; and lower income levels. Questions and Answers, supra, at 4.


13)Does AA confer an advantage to applicants in the medical school process?
OF COURSE. If AA did not increase minority enrollment, it would not be used. In 2001, a total of 15,336 non-URMs were accepted into medical school. If AA was not used in the application process in 2001, then 16,667 non-URMs would have been accepted. In 2001, in the presence of AA, 1,868 URM applicants were accepted. If AA wasn’t used in the process, it is “projected” that only 537 URMs would have been accepted in 2001. But once again, it must be clearly stated that the AAMC primarily cares about the overall healthcare availability for ALL Americans; not whether you “felt” shafted in the application process. So if it benefits society, it will continue to be used.

 

[Ihateverbal]

If you were smarter about this...

you would have compared the % of whites at Northwestern to % of whites in Chicago...

Obviously Chicago is more diverse than someplace like Idaho.
Think before you make comparisons.

 

[Ihateverbal]

This thread should be closed.

 

[ghip]

It's so funny how people think URM admissions policies are about the applicants. It's a fcuking PUBLIC HEALTH INTERVENTION. It's not about you, it's about the patients. Idiots.

 

[estairella]

5) Isn’t AA causing me to think that all minorities that are in my medical school got in only because of their race?

Don’t blame affirmative action. If you feel this way, there were already preconceived biases within you about the intelligence level of minorities. AA just provides an avenue to openly express these biases.

12) Are they just innately more stupid?

No... This gap is not well understood, but some educators believe that the reasons for lower performance include the “lower quality of schools that minority students attend, stereotypic lower expectations of teachers for minority students, combined with stereotypic lower expectations of students for themselves;” the lingering legacy of discrimination; lower education and academic achievement among minority families; and lower income levels. Questions and Answers, supra, at 4.

I hope everyone realizes that "no" and "not well understand" mean very different things. However, it is improbable that race, as far as being a representation of clusters of genetic markers but often manifesting as overt phenotypic traits (skin colour, hair colour & texture, facial features, body type, etc.) has no effect on intelligence. It is also unlikely that culture has no bearing on intelligence, but culture is arguably more easy to influence in the short-term.

For example (and for those who think Asians are ORM simply because they are a self-selecting group), a study showed that in various math tests (a stereotypically "Asian" field), Chinese students outperformed Canadian students of Chinese origin, who outperformed non-Chinese Canadians. If there was no genetic link between "Chinese" and "math smarts", then the only hypothesis would be:

The Chinese education system is so advanced that it is able to make average students of the Chinese educational perform better than students from a "self-selected group" (those who were able to immigrate to Canada) who studied in the Canadian system.

Which is most certainly NOT the most likely scenario.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Just to be clear, I'm not saying URM minorities are innately stupid. It is possible they are innately smarter than everyone else, but due to all the other factors mentioned in the quote, they appear to be more stupid. It is also possible they're average. "Not well understood" means a lot of things, but stupid is one of them.

Since it's supposed to be a factual FAQ, then use facts, goddammit! The FACT is, some people may perceive URMs as being stupid based on their GPAs/MCAT scores. This does NOT mean those people are inherently biased (they still could be, and there is a good chance they are, but it's not a fact). You most certainly cannot fault those people even if they were biased, because the relationship between URMs and scholastic performance is "not well understood".

------------------------------------------------------------

"Remember…AA is not about you, it is about the overall healthcare for Americans." is a pretty dumb statement. "Taxes aren't about you, they're about the proper financing of the infrastructures that uphold society" is equally dumb. Of course it's about you (assuming you're applying or have applied to medical school), and it is also about the healthcare of patients. It's the simple cost-benefit analysis where:

MANY (PATIENTS) > FEW (WHITE/ORM APPLICANTS)

That doesn't mean those few have no right to complain. I respect the pro-URM viewpoint, but you have to realize we all have different personal values on what is a cost and what is a benefit. For me, the cost-benefit analysis is just as simple:

FAIR PROCESS > UNFAIR PROCESS

(Yeah I know I'll have someone calling me naive, short-sighted or selfish for believing that having better healthcare isn't worth a tiny amount of bias in the process. I refer you to the suspension of habeas corpus in America - sure, it's a little unfair in that it does imprison a tiny tiny number of innocent people for no reason, but at least it keeps the American public safe. I'm against both for the exact same reason.)

-------------------------------------------------

Very long post. My two cents!

 

[psipsina]

I hope everyone realizes that "no" and "not well understand" mean very different things. However, it is improbable that race, as far as being a representation of clusters of genetic markers but often manifesting as overt phenotypic traits (skin colour, hair colour & texture, facial features, body type, etc.) has no effect on intelligence. It is also unlikely that culture has no bearing on intelligence, but culture is arguably more easy to influence in the short-term.

I was taught in a freshman anthro course in UG that race doesn't scientifically exist. There is no phenotypic trait that can be used to describe race without exception: i.e. those with darker skin are African, well what about Indians (as in the country) who are darker than many Africans? You just can't define race in a scientific way. So if race doesn't exist, it certainly can't be a determinant of intelligence, the end.

Since it's supposed to be a factual FAQ, then use facts, goddammit! The FACT is, ][Bsome people may perceive URMs as being stupid [/B] based on their GPAs/MCAT scores. This does NOT mean those people are inherently biased (they still could be, and there is a good chance they are, but it's not a fact). You most certainly cannot fault those people even if they were biased, because the relationship between URMs and scholastic performance is "not well understood".

I think I sure as heck can fault these people, to state that all [insert imaginary race thing here] are stupid is to make a broad generalization based upon a persons race, which as described above doesn't even exist outside of our own cultural perceptions. I think that is what we call being a racist. And I will certainly call anyone out who is a racist, because its hurtful to individuals and to society as a whole. Racism divides people based on imaginary boundries, and these divisions have caused countless wars and violence that I don't think anyone can argue has been to the benefit of humanity. As physicians we are supposed to be in the business of healing humanity, not promoting divisions within it.

 

[redsoxfan]

Why are people always so worked up about URM acceptance stats?? Walk into nearly any med school in the nation, and URMs make up such a small fraction of the students there.

Why aren't people more upset about RESIDENCY status??? I mean you can't get any more discriminatory than that. I'm sorry but it is unfair that a caucasian from CA or MA statistically has a lesser chance of acceptance than a caucasian from MS, VA, OH, NY, TX, FL etc with identical academic credentials. Why should people from CA or MA have to score higher on the MCAT to get into a school while some state schools have an avg MCAT below 30?

You can argue state taxes and service to the community all u want, but the fact remains that if u look at any special masters program class, nearly all the people in that program are from the northeast or CA, while other applicants can always count on their good ol state school to come through for them...

 

[realitybias]

Why is race even factored in? The way I'd like to see things, is when applying to colleges, med school, etc... I'd like to see that "Race" box completely empty, completely off the page. Along with the name, to make sure that there is nothing about the persons race revealed. A school should choose on merit, not race.

 

[LizzyM]

Why aren't people more upset about RESIDENCY status??? I mean you can't get any more discriminatory than that. ...

This is America. You can live in any state you please. Don't like your chances in California? Establish residency elsewhere.

Just don't whine that life is not fair.

 

[riceman04]

Grades are not everything, scores are not everything. Admission isn't a prize for the best academic record.

In 2006, 17,370 people matriculated to medical school. Of those, 1,425 were URM. That's 8.2%, far less than the proportion of URM in the population (which is why we call the URM).

You are crying that your black classmates think that people perceive them as affirmative action admissions and less qualified but you are making that assumption. The problem is your perception. Educate yourself and educate your friends.

You and I both know that many people make such arguments out of convenience. Few people are willing to actually progress beyond superficial (and often biased) observations in search of something meaningful.

All I can say is more power to ya...b/c I am tired of arguing.

I'll just continue to read through the posts with my unsalted, no butter, air popped popcorn, my lounge chair, and my voz water (hahaha...).

 

[riceman04]

Dude we already had this discussion before. Just let it go.

Oh and no one said you have to live in the GHETTO!! But truth be told patients look up doctor's information and people even in a rich town will choose someone on some sort of information about their background. I've been guilty of doing it myself before but it wasn't about race so much as I preferred older experienced doctors to someone younger. I'm sure a lot of other people do the same thing too and when they look on their insurance and see someone of their race they might be more likely to go to that person with hope that they will be able to connect with that person better being that they are from similar backgrounds. That's just how it is. get a grip already. you sound like you hate the fact that you are black and want to do anything to separate yourself from your african american counterparts.

ouch

 

[O Face]

You know, a great physician isn't necessarily someone who gets in the 99th percentile on their USMLE's, achieves AOA status and then goes on to do ophthalmology or radiation oncology. It also isn't necessarily someone who goes on to do breakthrough research and comes up with a novel vaccination for malaria or AIDS. A lot of times a great physician is someone who fills a need that is otherwise too "unglamorous" for anyone else to want to do.

There was a girl in my medical school class, an African-american female, who came from a small rural, medically under-served town in Texas. She came to medical school with the express intent of becoming a family physician and then going back to her small town in Texas and treating those people. And that's exactly what she is doing. She is serving a need that would not have otherwise been met if my school took some other applicant who scored one point higher on the MCAT and then who subsequently went on to become on anesthesiologist in Denver. She represents to me a prime example of why diversity for diversity's sake is an important consideration ESPECIALLY in a field like medicine.

 

[O Face]

This thread should be closed.

Quit whining, you baby.

 

[gujuDoc]

You know, a great physician isn't necessarily someone who gets in the 99th percentile on their USMLE's, achieves AOA status and then goes on to do ophthalmology or radiation oncology. It also isn't necessarily someone who goes on to do breakthrough research and comes up with a novel vaccination for malaria or AIDS. A lot of times a great physician is someone who fills a need that is otherwise too "unglamorous" for anyone else to want to do.

There was a girl in my medical school class, an African-american female, who came from a small rural, medically under-served town in Texas. She came to medical school with the express intent of becoming a family physician and then going back to her small town in Texas and treating those people. And that's exactly what she is doing. She is serving a need that would not have otherwise been met if my school took some other applicant who scored one point higher on the MCAT and then who subsequently went on to become on anesthesiologist in Denver. She represents to me a prime example of why diversity for diversity's sake is an important consideration ESPECIALLY in a field like medicine.

I agree with you.

 

[psipsina]

You know, a great physician isn't necessarily someone who gets in the 99th percentile on their USMLE's, achieves AOA status and then goes on to do ophthalmology or radiation oncology. It also isn't necessarily someone who goes on to do breakthrough research and comes up with a novel vaccination for malaria or AIDS. A lot of times a great physician is someone who fills a need that is otherwise too "unglamorous" for anyone else to want to do.

There was a girl in my medical school class, an African-american female, who came from a small rural, medically under-served town in Texas. She came to medical school with the express intent of becoming a family physician and then going back to her small town in Texas and treating those people. And that's exactly what she is doing. She is serving a need that would not have otherwise been met if my school took some other applicant who scored one point higher on the MCAT and then who subsequently went on to become on anesthesiologist in Denver. She represents to me a prime example of why diversity for diversity's sake is an important consideration ESPECIALLY in a field like medicine.

👍

 

[gujuDoc]

You and I both know that many people make such arguments out of convenience. Few people are willing to actually progress beyond superficial (and often biased) observations in search of something meaningful.

All I can say is more power to ya...b/c I am tired of arguing.

I'll just continue to read through the posts with my unsalted, no butter, air popped popcorn, my lounge chair, and my voz water (hahaha...).

I agree with this as well. You know I was reading Ben carson's book today "Gifted Hands" after studying for a little bit. Anyhow, it was emphasizing the same points you made above.


Oh and at the latter half of your post. But I understand where you are coming from.

 

[narc]

1

 

[gujuDoc]

Everybody cares so much about race and skin color. Blah. I think the white guy in the inner city going to the same school as the black guy with the same disadvantages should get the same consideration. And I really don't feel that the black guy who grew up in a million dollar household deserves more consideration than the white next door neighbor.

We talk about URM and social disadvantages and the like. However, even within these categories, there are advantaged and disadvantaged people. Unfortunately, sometimes the advantaged people within these subgroups may be able to capitalize on this perception of "URM" and "diversifying" medicine.

Maybe we can adjust merit for social advantages irrespective of race to determine if somebody qualifies over another person?

Also, if two people have the same advantages, some people I've heard counter with the excuse that the "URM" had to encounter possible racism and their forebears weren't as advantaged so they deserve special consideration. This was by far the most racist argument I've EVER heard (coming from a friend of mine who would count as a URM probably makes it a bit worse). Blacks and hispanics, given the same opportunities as a white or Asian kid, have the capability to achieve just as much as them.

I think we should be color blind. I also think we have to recognize when people overcome certain obstacles to get to where they are and to achieve what they have (like an Asian or Hispanic kid who just moved to the US a few years ago and yet learned the language and succeeded in spite of this disadvantage, or like a kid of any color growing up in what would be considered a "lower socioeconomic class" and so maybe didn't have access to the same educational opportunities).

If people want to talk about what's wrong with how this all works, let's talk about the NBA recruiting kids straight out of high school (most of whom are minorities). Does anybody think this sets a good example for youth in terms of the importance of higher education (or any education for that matter)? This is totally off topic but it's just my way of bringing up the point that arguments about things like admission on the basis of race setting a good example for the community are flawed because there are too many inconsistencies in the way society works. If you want change, the first thing to do isn't trying to force percentile-meeting medical school admissions.

The rich black guy who grew up in a mllion dollar house most likely has a great education to begin with that they'd get the resource to learn on the same level as a rich Asian or white person. Also, let me emphasize that with that said it is quite obvious that even if they weren't black they'd probably get in because they'd have the resources to do well at their expense. The rich african american is not as common as the rich white guy or Indian guy when you look at the overall population. The educated rich African American is even less common then the rich African American because there are several rich athletes and people in the entertainment industry (i.e. singers, actors/actresses, etc.). However, finding people who as well educated from AA backgrounds is a lo rarer then ORM populations or majority populations on the whole. So I tend to disagree with you. I'm Asian Indian but I do see and understand that the world is not as black and white as some people make it out to be.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think AOA membership and Step 1 scores measure an applicant's ability to learn and their work ethic. If I were a residency director, I would use these criteria rather than judgments about "great hands & hand-eye coordination" to pick our nation's future surgeons.

So yes, given two medical students who want to be surgeons, the AOA 240 Step 1 is more likely to be a great, successful surgeon than the bottom of the class 182 Step 1. Do you disagree?

PS: You don't need great hands to be a surgeon. It's more of repetition and practice than natural talent.

The stupidity of what you are not understanding is that the 240 step 1 person is bound to go into a competitive field like surgery, derm, rad onco, but then who is left to treat the lay person as he needs to see a family practice doctor?? That's right!!! It is going to be the person who might not have necessarily been the highest scorer in the class but who knows how to be successful at what they do in a family practice.