Overpaid nurses

[jwk]

I think this is an excellent example of market pressures. Who all wants to provide nursing care for prison inmates in a sh*thole place like Soledad?

What? No one's raising their hand? Come on, someone's gotta do it.

Alright... what if we pay you above average salary?

Great, I see we've got a few takers- but we're still short several shifts.

Okay, fine, if you guys work these extra shifts, we'll pay you a $50.00 incentive bonus per shift.

Really? No one? Don't you think you should be grateful to have a job?!? After all, nursing is a cush, easy, job that any half-wit can do, right? What? I can go f*ck myself?

Sorry, wait, come back.... okay, okay, how about time and a half pay for overtime?


Supply and demand. You might not like it- but it is what it is.

A simple concept - often ignored, frequently blown off. Supply and demand ALWAYS rules. ALWAYS. How do you get someone to work on St. Paul Island in the middle of the Bering Sea taking care of a "Deadliest Catch" crewman when they come in? I'm sure you pay well. Hell, how do you get someone to go crab fishing in the Bering Sea in winter (crazy MF's there!!!) ? You pay them $30k for a few weeks work. How do you get someone to work in the middle of North Dakota or Montana, 250 miles from anywhere? You pay what it takes to get someone to move out in the middle of nowhere, and if you can't find someone, you keep upping the pay until you do.

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[Therapist4Chnge]

A simple concept - often ignored, frequently blown off. Supply and demand ALWAYS rules. ALWAYS. How do you get someone to work on St. Paul Island in the middle of the Bering Sea taking care of a "Deadliest Catch" crewman when they come in? I'm sure you pay well. Hell, how do you get someone to go crab fishing in the Bering Sea in winter (crazy MF's there!!!) ? You pay them $30k for a few weeks work. How do you get someone to work in the middle of North Dakota or Montana, 250 miles from anywhere? You pay what it takes to get someone to move out in the middle of nowhere, and if you can't find someone, you keep upping the pay until you do.

Absolutely! The way the above works is that it goes both ways, and the more sought after positions don't offer such exorbitant salaries, instead they trade the "extra" salary for the more desirable locations. The problem with the above scenario is that there are outside factors that have skewed the model. In this case, the unions coming in and raising the base salaries AND demanding that the top-end salaries stay. There are also many levels of bureaucracy that need to be supported in a gov't run system, which adds a significant amount of cost to the bottom line. Since the gov't loves to put people in prison, we need to figure out how to support that more efficiently and at a lower cost.

 

[FiremedicMike]

There's a lot of hostility towards public unions that is simply unnecessary. Sadly our private industry counterparts have really put us in a bind and make us look bad.

Some food for thought, local governments CANNOT pay money they don't have. Local public unions do nothing more than hold these local governments accountable, forcing (through legal power) these municipalities to open their books for full disclosure of what money is available. Once that occurs, the union asks for a pay rate that is fair and within the budgetary means of the municipality, who in turn either accepts or rejects this request. If they reject these pay rates, a third party arbitrator takes an outside look at the books and either says "yep, you can afford it, stop being stingy" or "hey union, that's way too much and they can't pay that." You're welcome to research it for yourself if you don't believe me, but truth be told the arbitrator sides with the government the majority of the time, and the union is stuck with whatever offer the government had given. This is called legally binding arbitration.

So really all you are complaining about is that you feel (without even knowing tbh) that this nurse's base hourly rate is too high to begin with. My response back is that her hourly rate is no more and no less than what the governmental agency she works for can afford. Of course, we are ignoring the fact that no one here even knows what the base hourly rate is.

 

[FireCloud9]

Supply and demand, boys and girls - supply and demand. Nothing more.

I saw this mentioned several times throughout the thread. I wish this aspect of business was a G.E. requirement for every degree.

Government intervention (mandatory certification, licensing, etc.), unions, etc. distort capitalism so that it bears little resemblance to "supply and demand".

California in particular, IMHO, is out of control. The mandatory nurse to patient ratio in CA "idles" nurses. That is, if the ratio is 1:8 and patient 9 walks in the door, by law a 2nd nurse has to be available, and when patients are released and it's now 1:4 that 2nd nurse still has their FT job. So it's not uncommon in CA to see nurses standing around chatting for hours at a time.

Our experience has been that in NY hospitals where nurses work like dogs vs. CA hospitals were nurses work like Queens and are paid accordingly.

In NY, we never ran across anyone that wanted to be a nurse, and knew of few nurses, some of whom left the profession. In CA, we encounter a 5yr average waiting list to get into any of the many nursing programs in our region.

What about the mechanic that gets paid $75/hr for labor? The union contractor that easily clears 100k a year? The plumber that charges what amounts to be $50-100/hr?

I see talk of mechanic making $75/hr or a plumber making just as much. The difference is that they're actually working. If they don't work, they don't make the $75 whereas many of the nurses we know make bank without doing any actual work.

The most popular approach to nursing work we've seen in this area is to finish nursing school, try to get a job at UC Davis for at least 20hrs a week to obtain full benefits (they have the best in the region), freelance for another 10hrs at 2X and take call for 20.

I don't know any mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. sitting at home watching TV making $25-50/hr waiting for a call that may never come (and often doesn't).

But hey, I'm not about to fight the crazy system that is CA. I say, don't fight them, join them! 🙂

Nurses in this area clock in $six figures$ straight out of school (mainly because they start at night and get paid 1.5X), but after as little as 6-12 months, they're off and running well into six figures without the night gig (unless they want to).

If you went to a cocktail party around here and a couple introduced themselves as doctor and nurse, you wouldn't hear, "ooooh, so you're a doctor" - you're more likely to hear, "oooh, so your a nurse!".

Heck, the doc would probably get shoved to the side so everyone could talk to the nurse. LOL

The reason for the high rate of pay for nurses is:

1) monopoly power through unionization
2) high burnout rate

The latter is self-explanatory, nursing is no cakewalk, but for the former: California nurses are largely unionized, they have a monopoly on manpower for the hospitals, which are closed shops, and have been for decades.

This sort of monopoly game is not uncommon, plumbers, electricians, dentists, and physicians use a different method of monopoly: limiting the supply of the workforce. Plumbers limit the number of licenses available, that's why your local licensed plumber earns $80-$120 per hour. Electricians limit the number of trainee and license spots, that's why your electrician earns $90 an hour. Neither of these positions requires ANY college.

Then there are physicians... physicians limit the supply of medical school spots and then the mix of specialty positions, supposedly to maximize the quality of the service provider, however the supply of medical school spots and residency spots seems to remain constant irrespective of the size and quality of the applicant pool, the spots are actually limited in order to prop up salaries, which are the highest in the world. The physician method worked wonderfully until the explosion of the HMO's in the 1980's, it seems that the physician method is woefully ineffective in dealing with HMO's.

On the other hand, nurses using the unionization method of monopoly lost no ground with the explosion of HMO's in the 1980's, after all unionization methods had been used for decades and were effective against Kaiser Permanente in California, and Kaiser Permanente was the model for the HMO act of 1973 (most HMO's mimic Kaiser).

Unfortunately, physicians cannot unionize for two reasons

1) because they are considered supervisors.
2) during nursing strikes nursing duties are dropped onto the laps of physicians (since they are non-unionized, no strike breaking clause), however during physician strikes, who would cover physician duties? if docs were manufacturing widgets, this wouldn't be an issue, but since it's lives at stake and docs have all taken the hippocratic oath, there is just no way doctors can strike

I am in my 30's after having spent many years working in the IT and trading worlds. I ran my own business for a while. I am quite familiar of the business world and what competition means. I've worked in some brutally efficient environments where you didn't know if you had job tomorrow because management was actively trying to find cheaper labor across the globe so that they could replace you with some guy who is willing to work for a dollar a day. It's a dog eat dog world out there. If you don't watch your back, your competition will come and eat your lunch. After making the huge time and financial sacrifices to become a doctor, I and most physicians have no interest in recognizing as equals people with a quarter of our education and inferior abilities simply because they lobbied some unscrupulous politicians. If you want to do what we do, go to medical school. I think that is a simple request.

The purpose of my posts is to wake up as many people as possible to the current issues affecting medicine. .

Wow, in a little over three years he doubled his base from $67k to $130k. Nurses have come a long way in three years. Perhaps doctors could learn something from them.

Nurses = The Borg
Doctors = Federation

They can't do anything, because if they do, the nurses union will shove their collective feet up the city's butt

That was funny! 😀

 

[chimichanga]

...The most popular approach to nursing work we've seen in this area is to finish nursing school, try to get a job at UC Davis for at least 20hrs a week to obtain full benefits (they have the best in the region), freelance for another 10hrs at 2X and take call for 20...

'Freelancing' or per diem, as it's more commonly called, used to be forbidden for new grads...no one would (or should they) hire them for prn work.

Now, a lot of places are doing just that...

It's very dangerous, period.

I've seen it in AZ too...many problems arising from new grads being in solo,part time gigs

 

[The right Path]

I saw this mentioned several times throughout the thread. I wish this aspect of business was a G.E. requirement for every degree.

Government intervention (mandatory certification, licensing, etc.), unions, etc. distort capitalism so that it bears little resemblance to "supply and demand".

California in particular, IMHO, is out of control. The mandatory nurse to patient ratio in CA "idles" nurses. That is, if the ratio is 1:8 and patient 9 walks in the door, by law a 2nd nurse has to be available, and when patients are released and it's now 1:4 that 2nd nurse still has their FT job. So it's not uncommon in CA to see nurses standing around chatting for hours at a time.

Our experience has been that in NY hospitals where nurses work like dogs vs. CA hospitals were nurses work like Queens and are paid accordingly.

In NY, we never ran across anyone that wanted to be a nurse, and knew of few nurses, some of whom left the profession. In CA, we encounter a 5yr average waiting list to get into any of the many nursing programs in our region.



I see talk of mechanic making $75/hr or a plumber making just as much. The difference is that they're actually working. If they don't work, they don't make the $75 whereas many of the nurses we know make bank without doing any actual work.

The most popular approach to nursing work we've seen in this area is to finish nursing school, try to get a job at UC Davis for at least 20hrs a week to obtain full benefits (they have the best in the region), freelance for another 10hrs at 2X and take call for 20.

I don't know any mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. sitting at home watching TV making $25-50/hr waiting for a call that may never come (and often doesn't).

But hey, I'm not about to fight the crazy system that is CA. I say, don't fight them, join them! 🙂

Nurses in this area clock in $six figures$ straight out of school (mainly because they start at night and get paid 1.5X), but after as little as 6-12 months, they're off and running well into six figures without the night gig (unless they want to).

If you went to a cocktail party around here and a couple introduced themselves as doctor and nurse, you wouldn't hear, "ooooh, so you're a doctor" - you're more likely to hear, "oooh, so your a nurse!".

Heck, the doc would probably get shoved to the side so everyone could talk to the nurse. LOL










That was funny! 😀

Cool Story, Bro

 

[FireCloud9]

Seems fairly common here. I suppose it depends what you mean by "new grad". Some do the traveling nurse bit right out of school, though in the region we hear more about those that worked FT for 6 months before doing it.

To me, 6 months isn't much time in the saddle....

I can easily see why this area has a 5yr waiting list for the many RN schools whereas in NYC, you just don't see it. Being a nurse in NY is brutal. I certainly wouldn't want to do it. California by comparison is great! 🙂 Though I suppose places like L.A. or S.F. may be more like NY than this area.

 

[PrinceVersed]

So, I worked in a CVICU for four years. I will be the first to admit that I did a lot of sitting around. But guess what? That is what I was paid to do. I sat there for 12 hours straight so that the doctors didn't have to. I did what was needed when it was needed. I did not go in the rooms and bug/bother patients that did not need anything just so people like you would think that I was busy. If you end up in the hospital you will pray for a nurse that will leave you alone unless you NEED something. I know every time I have been in the hospital that is what I have wanted. I got paid not only for what I did but also for what I could do if a problem came up. Someone HAS to sit there for 12hrs and no one is going to do it for free. Especially not considering the treatment I had to endure and the duties I had to preform.

If you ever want to find out why a nurse makes the money they make, go and be one. I am sure within a matter of a week or two you will agree that NO amount of money is compensation for dealing with that crap (literal and figurative ha).

As for sitting around on call, I think I made a dollar an hour. Not $25-50

 

[Nasrudin]

So, I worked in a CVICU for four years. I will be the first to admit that I did a lot of sitting around. But guess what? That is what I was paid to do. I sat there for 12 hours straight so that the doctors didn't have to. I did what was needed when it was needed. I did not go in the rooms and bug/bother patients that did not need anything just so people like you would think that I was busy. If you end up in the hospital you will pray for a nurse that will leave you alone unless you NEED something. I know every time I have been in the hospital that is what I have wanted. I got paid not only for what I did but also for what I could do if a problem came up. Someone HAS to sit there for 12hrs and no one is going to do it for free. Especially not considering the treatment I had to endure and the duties I had to preform.

If you ever want to find out why a nurse makes the money they make, go and be one. I am sure within a matter of a week or two you will agree that NO amount of money is compensation for dealing with that crap (literal and figurative ha).

As for sitting around on call, I think I made a dollar an hour. Not $25-50

Yep. There was a time when I could've gone either way with my career. But now that inch ever closer to being a physician. I couldn't imagine ever wanting to be a nurse. And the further my distance from taking the kind of crap from you all that you tout taking from docs. The more compassion I have for a professionally educated person who is stuck squarely in the middle of the chain of typical hospital nonsense.

So overtime--especially on the order of working 2 full time jobs-- that approaches or surpasses my salary does't bother me in the slightest. Although it's extremely unlikely. As I planning working a second job myself. And the number of actual nurses, instead of headlining ones, pulling 170 G's plus is vanishingly small.

 

[FireCloud9]

So, I worked in a CVICU for four years. I will be the first to admit that I did a lot of sitting around. But guess what? That is what I was paid to do. I sat there for 12 hours straight so that the doctors didn't have to. I did what was needed when it was needed. I did not go in the rooms and bug/bother patients that did not need anything just so people like you would think that I was busy. If you end up in the hospital you will pray for a nurse that will leave you alone unless you NEED something. I know every time I have been in the hospital that is what I have wanted. I got paid not only for what I did but also for what I could do if a problem came up. Someone HAS to sit there for 12hrs and no one is going to do it for free. Especially not considering the treatment I had to endure and the duties I had to preform.

If you ever want to find out why a nurse makes the money they make, go and be one. I am sure within a matter of a week or two you will agree that NO amount of money is compensation for dealing with that crap (literal and figurative ha).

As for sitting around on call, I think I made a dollar an hour. Not $25-50

A dollar an hour? What State is that? $25-50 /hr are the rates I've heard in this area.

Nurses flex their political muscle in Sacramento and across California
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By Darrell Smith and Phillip Reese
[email protected]
Published: Sunday, Feb. 5, 2012 - 12:00 am | Page 1A
Last Modified: Sunday, Feb. 5, 2012 - 12:41 pm
Rose Ann DeMoro is always ready for another fight.

And why not? During the past decade, the leader of the California Nurses Association has won so many of her battles.

Largely because of CNA efforts, California is poised to become the first state where registered nurses make an average salary above $100,000.

Graphic of Nurse Wages compared to all other workers in California

California nurses lose perspective on pay
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Published: Sunday, Feb. 5, 2012 - 6:02 pm
Last Modified: Monday, Feb. 6, 2012 - 2:33 pm
Re "Nurses flex political muscle across state" (Page A1, Feb. 5) I understand wanting increased wages, but doesn't a mass nurse walkout put patients at risk?

Who takes the place of the nurses in hospitals when they're on the picket line? The article says nurse's average salary grew from $57,855 in 2001 to $88,714 in 2011, a 21 percent increase.

It can't be an easy job being a nurse, but $88,714 per year salary isn't chump change.

I could live like a king on that salary and wouldn't complain.

Try getting by making $24,000 a year like some of us doing meaningless work. Do these people get into the nursing profession simply for the money, or because they want to help people? I'd much rather help people than complain about only making $88,714.

-- Michael Baumgart, Roseville


Consider this, 1st year nurses in Northern CA make $100k+. That's an RN with an ASN (2yr degree) or BSN (4yr degree).

Compare to the World's Top MBA programs: http://officialmbaguide.org/top40.php?rnk=salary [4yr college + 2yr MBA]

Compare to starting salaries for Engineers: http://www.eng.lsu.edu/news/2009/7/engineering-starting-salaries-rank-high-in-new-national-survey and http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/best-engineering-colleges.asp [4yrs college though usually takes 5-6 to complete]

Compare to starting salaries for Lawyers: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/01/national-jurist.html [4yrs college + 3yrs JD]

It's no wonder the ABSN program around here have a pipeline of MBAs, lawyers and engineers! Lets see, a 2yr associates at a community college or 5-8 years of college and grad school... hmm, tough choice. 🙂

Top that off with patient to nurse ratio (I love it!!!) 😀

"In 1999, they persuaded the state Legislature to pass a first-in-the-nation law setting nurse-to-patient ratios: the maximum number of patients assigned to a licensed nurse at any one time.

The staffing ratios, implemented in 2004, range from one nurse for every patient in a trauma unit, to one nurse for every four patients in a specialty-care unit."

"It's a huge cost for hospitals," Spetz said, estimating about one-sixth of a hospital's total budget goes toward compensation of registered nurses, licensed vocational nurses and nurses aides.

Highest nursing pay in U.S.

For many CNA members, there's a more potent measure of the union's success: Nursing pay, already higher in California than anywhere else, is rising fast.

The average salary for a California registered nurse grew from $57,855 in 2001 to $88,714 in 2011, according to the state Employment Development Department. Adjusted for inflation, that represents a 21 percent pay hike, compared with an 8 percent pay bump for other California workers during that span.

At the current pace, the average salary for a California registered nurse will eclipse six figures in three years.

The arguments, the walkouts, the pay increases – all are likely to continue as long as demand for nurses remains strong. In 2010, as the state buckled under 12 percent unemployment, the jobless rate among nurses was 1.8 percent, census figures show.

"We're still seeing demand," said Terri Carpenter, the agency's spokeswoman. "But we can only train so many a year. There's only so much space at the colleges."

You bet you're seeing demand !

Can't wait to take 60-80hrs of call a week (70-80hrs a week w/o OT pay was fairly standard in my private sector experience) and spend it watching TV! Woo-hoo!

Keep going CNA boost those salaries to $125k! $150k! Go, go, go! I'm on my way!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Reason #2,350 CA is bankrupt.

 

[FireCloud9]

It's not that far down the list. 🙂

 

[Nasrudin]

Great f'n post firecloud9.

You've provided evidence and data for something I've been saying for years. That the CNA plays a hardball dirty game. Holding the public at ransom. All the while acting the innocent martyrs of patient advocacy.

The hypocrisy cannot be sustained.

Ask people out of work who can't afford healthcare how sympathetic they are to the plight of AA degree holding 6 figure earners.

The bubble has burst.

Already hospitals are replacing overpaid nurses with more support staff. It's not so easy to get an RN gig in Cali anymore. That's the trouble with wielding the sword for so long. You tend to fall on it.

I think this shift in the public imagination about how the public sees it's nurses is necessary. For society to accurately assess what it should pay it's nurses.

I think 60-75 G's is fair for the public.

80-100. F that. They're just not that qualified. I've taken nursing courses. The knowledge and skill to perform is not worth that kind of money in a downward spiraling economy.

It's time the public take off their baby world view of the gallant and self-sacrificing nurse propaganda.

 

[Dranger]

Great f'n post firecloud9.

You've provided evidence and data for something I've been saying for years. That the CNA plays a hardball dirty game. Holding the public at ransom. All the while acting the innocent martyrs of patient advocacy.

The hypocrisy cannot be sustained.

Ask people out of work who can't afford healthcare how sympathetic they are to the plight of AA degree holding 6 figure earners.

The bubble has burst.

Already hospitals are replacing overpaid nurses with more support staff. It's not so easy to get an RN gig in Cali anymore. That's the trouble with wielding the sword for so long. You tend to fall on it.

I think this shift in the public imagination about how the public sees it's nurses is necessary. For society to accurately assess what it should pay it's nurses.

I think 60-75 G's is fair for the public.

80-100. F that. They're just not that qualified. I've taken nursing courses. The knowledge and skill to perform is not worth that kind of money in a downward spiraling economy.

It's time the public take off their baby world view of the gallant and self-sacrificing nurse propaganda.

I respectfully disagree.

The 60-75k range for a semi-experienced regular staff nurse in a med-surg floor is more then fair. However, if you think 80-100k is too much for an experienced ICU/ER with a masters/certs nurse (even CNS) I believe you are wayyyyy off the mark. I could go into the ins and outs of the responsibilities of a surgical, ER or ICU nurse but in short their job entails more then you give them credit (hemodynamics, PICC lines etc etc).

Nursing is probably one of the best undergraduate degrees you can receive. Aside from engineering (accounting/finance etc) very very few majors actually prepare you for an occupation. At any given university a large majority of the degrees are simply useless in the eyes of employers and the public. Yes, this includes hard undergraduate science degrees like biology (I am a bio minor as well as pre-med).

I am finishing up my BSN this year as well as my pre reqs for med school (hence why I am on this forum..I plan on going to med school after my army contract for nursing is done) I find it hard to believe you took "a few nursing class" besides maybe a fundamentals course which is hardly a good look at general nursing and not even close to a specialty. Last time I checked most schools do not allow non-majors to take nursing courses and I have no idea why you would want to if that is not your chosen degree field.

Before you start quantifying what a profession is worth I suggest you actually research what a nurse or nurse specialist does. If 100k is way to much to pay a nurse in your eyes (or the public as you claim) you better add about 50 other professions/careers up there as well. I am not a huge fan of unions nor of the strikes but your value of nursing is simply off the mark especially for nurses with advanced degrees or specializations. In my West Coast state 100k for a RN w/ additional certs and 10 year+ experience isn't rare at all....and I don't hear any griping from docs or management. They are compensated for what they bring to the health care setting.

Anecdotal-A toothless mechanic at Boeing with no education past high school can rival what a general practice physician makes...you mad?

 

[Nasrudin]

I respectfully disagree.

The 60-75k range for a semi-experienced regular staff nurse in a med-surg floor is more then fair. However, if you think 80-100k is too much for an experienced ICU/ER with a masters/certs nurse (even CNS) I believe you are wayyyyy off the mark. I could go into the ins and outs of the responsibilities of a surgical, ER or ICU nurse but in short their job entails more then you give them credit (hemodynamics, PICC lines etc etc).

Nursing is probably one of the best undergraduate degrees you can receive. Aside from engineering (accounting/finance etc) very very few majors actually prepare you for an occupation. At any given university a large majority of the degrees are simply useless in the eyes of employers and the public. Yes, this includes hard undergraduate science degrees like biology (I am a bio minor as well as pre-med).

I am finishing up my BSN this year as well as my pre reqs for med school (hence why I am on this forum..I plan on going to med school after my army contract for nursing is done) I find it hard to believe you took "a few nursing class" besides maybe a fundamentals course which is hardly a good look at general nursing and not even close to a specialty. Last time I checked most schools do not allow non-majors to take nursing courses and I have no idea why you would want to if that is not your chosen degree field.

Before you start quantifying what a profession is worth I suggest you actually research what a nurse or nurse specialist does. If 100k is way to much to pay a nurse in your eyes (or the public as you claim) you better add about 50 other professions/careers up there as well. I am not a huge fan of unions nor of the strikes but your value of nursing is simply off the mark especially for nurses with advanced degrees or specializations. In my West Coast state 100k for a RN w/ additional certs and 10 year+ experience isn't rare at all....and I don't hear any griping from docs or management. They are compensated for what they bring to the health care setting.

Anecdotal-A toothless mechanic at Boeing with no education past high school can rival what a general practice physician makes...you mad?

A board certified pediatrician can barely clear over six figures. You know. The ones who take the pager for 80 hours a week to make sure your sick baby meets with effective clinical knowledge.

So I don't give a F@ck about all of your certs. Research my nuts. I've been working in healthcare for close to 10 years. Does a skilled ICU nurse impress me. F@ck yeah. Do your anemic polemics. Hardly.

That toothless mechanic keeps planes in the air.

So I don't reduce skills and knowledge to certs or whatever. But rather inherent value to someone seeking a service. Which can have very little to do with pay.

The CNA is what bullies the public into paying top dollar not any real scarcity of talent or skill.

There's a line of nurses from here to the philipines that would dismantle the wage leverage that exists on the west coast.

 

[ChillyRN]

I respectfully disagree.

The 60-75k range for a semi-experienced regular staff nurse in a med-surg floor is more then fair. However, if you think 80-100k is too much for an experienced ICU/ER with a masters/certs nurse (even CNS) I believe you are wayyyyy off the mark. I could go into the ins and outs of the responsibilities of a surgical, ER or ICU nurse but in short their job entails more then you give them credit (hemodynamics, PICC lines etc etc).

Nursing is probably one of the best undergraduate degrees you can receive. Aside from engineering (accounting/finance etc) very very few majors actually prepare you for an occupation. At any given university a large majority of the degrees are simply useless in the eyes of employers and the public. Yes, this includes hard undergraduate science degrees like biology (I am a bio minor as well as pre-med).

I am finishing up my BSN this year as well as my pre reqs for med school (hence why I am on this forum..I plan on going to med school after my army contract for nursing is done) I find it hard to believe you took "a few nursing class" besides maybe a fundamentals course which is hardly a good look at general nursing and not even close to a specialty. Last time I checked most schools do not allow non-majors to take nursing courses and I have no idea why you would want to if that is not your chosen degree field.

Before you start quantifying what a profession is worth I suggest you actually research what a nurse or nurse specialist does. If 100k is way to much to pay a nurse in your eyes (or the public as you claim) you better add about 50 other professions/careers up there as well. I am not a huge fan of unions nor of the strikes but your value of nursing is simply off the mark especially for nurses with advanced degrees or specializations. In my West Coast state 100k for a RN w/ additional certs and 10 year+ experience isn't rare at all....and I don't hear any griping from docs or management. They are compensated for what they bring to the health care setting.

Anecdotal-A toothless mechanic at Boeing with no education past high school can rival what a general practice physician makes...you mad?

I was mostly agreeing with you until the last line, which turned my stomach. What a distasteful, classist remark. 👎

 

[Dranger]

A board certified pediatrician can barely clear over six figures. You know. The ones who take the pager for 80 hours a week to make sure your sick baby meets with effective clinical knowledge.

So I don't give a F@ck about all of your certs. Research my nuts. I've been working in healthcare for close to 10 years. Does a skilled ICU nurse impress me. F@ck yeah. Do your anemic polemics. Hardly.

That toothless mechanic keeps planes in the air.

So I don't reduce skills and knowledge to certs or whatever. But rather inherent value to someone seeking a service. Which can have very little to do with pay.

The CNA is what bullies the public into paying top dollar not any real scarcity of talent or skill.

There's a line of nurses from here to the philipines that would dismantle the wage leverage that exists on the west coast.

Lol anemic polemics, I like that alliteration.

Perhaps on average, but pediatricians here make about 150k+ at least.

You are right, screw certs and training I should take your anecdotal experience as fact, my bad.

If you read my post you would I also do not agree with union bullying nor the collectivist dogma pressuring the state and hospitals. What I do not agree with you is the idea that nurses are overly compensated. If you would like to staff your floors with CNA or medtech (as you mentioned support staff or whatever that entails) be my guest, but patient outcomes will suffer.

In addition, you do realize this is California right? Have you ever lived there? Do you know the cost of living? This isn't the South or the Mid-West, this part of the country (excluding exclusive parts on the East Coast) is horrendously expensive. 100k isn't even a drop in the bucket to live in some areas. Those areas need to be staffed my medical personnel as well. California is in a tumultuous health care situation for a HOST of reasons not just nursing pay...

If you want to outsource the issue, fair enough. Last number I saw showed less than 30% of foreign educated nurses passing the NCLEX. Why not just outsource every job?

You state inherent value. Alright I can agree with that. However, are you the judge of inherent value of a doc, nurse, tech or admin support? For whatever professions you believe have more or less inherent value there are a host of others who will disagree. In this situation, inherent value is subjective not objective as you make it seem. I am not saying every nurse is worth 80-100k but are there those out there? Most definitely yes.

My anecdotal choice was not random. That mechanic got his salary because of a little nepotism and A LOT lobbying. Supply and demand as you said. He costs exorbitant amounts of OT but he does keep planes in the air. Do nurses not help keep the healthcare system in the air as well?

As I mentioned above I am on the track for med school but I felt as though I should comment.

I was mostly agreeing with you until the last line, which turned my stomach. What a distasteful, classist remark. 👎

Not distasteful, a put down or classist in the least. That mechanic or whatever high paying vocational/ blue collar job is tough work. He or she puts in the hours to make that salary and is justifiably compensated. Perhaps, it wasn't the most iconic illustration but it fit my argument. Just an example from what I have experienced.

 

[Nasrudin]

Lol anemic polemics, I like that alliteration.

Perhaps on average, but pediatricians here make about 150k+ at least.

You are right, screw certs and training I should take your anecdotal experience as fact, my bad.

If you read my post you would I also do not agree with union bullying nor the collectivist dogma pressuring the state and hospitals. What I do not agree with you is the idea that nurses are overly compensated. If you would like to staff your floors with CNA or medtech (as you mentioned support staff or whatever that entails) be my guest, but patient outcomes will suffer.

In addition, you do realize this is California right? Have you ever lived there? Do you know the cost of living? This isn't the South or the Mid-West, this part of the country (excluding exclusive parts on the East Coast) is horrendously expensive. 100k isn't even a drop in the bucket to live in some areas. Those areas need to be staffed my medical personnel as well. California is in a tumultuous health care situation for a HOST of reasons not just nursing pay...

If you want to outsource the issue, fair enough. Last number I saw showed less than 30% of foreign educated nurses passing the NCLEX. Why not just outsource every job?

You state inherent value. Alright I can agree with that. However, are you the judge of inherent value of a doc, nurse, tech or admin support? For whatever professions you believe have more or less inherent value there are a host of others who will disagree. In this situation, inherent value is subjective not objective as you make it seem. I am not saying every nurse is worth 80-100k but are there those out there? Most definitely yes.

My anecdotal choice was not random. That mechanic got his salary because of a little nepotism and A LOT lobbying. Supply and demand as you said. He costs exorbitant amounts of OT but he does keep planes in the air. Do nurses not help keep the healthcare system in the air as well?

As I mentioned above I am on the track for med school but I felt as though I should comment.






Not distasteful, a put down or classist in the least. That mechanic or whatever high paying vocational/ blue collar job is tough work. He or she puts in the hours to make that salary and is justifiably compensated. Perhaps, it wasn't the most iconic illustration but it fit my argument. Just an example from what I have experienced.

Look man the whole thread topic is on the order of some street corner conversation while we're waiting for the bus.

And you're asking to research the avenues of advancement for BSN nursing. Just so I can piddle around with you on this. And we still end up with the same opinions we started with. Still waiting for the bus.

What I'm saying is this. I know exaclty how difficult it is to become a nurse. Not that.

But I recognize that it's a hard job. That requires increasingly sophisticated levels of knowledge and skill.

That's why I put it up there with highly skilled level pay.

This says nothing of how worthless I think CEO pay is or how I think teachers should make AT LEAST as much as nurses.

But my spitball figures say that a person with a 2 year degree should never approach the wage value of someone with 4 + 4 + 3-8 years of education and slavish work and multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars in education debt.

The other point I'm making is that nurses have this PR campaign that--FOR THE MOMENT--has everyone convinced their the self-sacrificing martyrs of patient advocacy. And I'm interested in seeing that nonsense collapse.

That's just the way I see it.

Just another dude. Waiting for the bus.

Addendum. I've sweated my balls off trying to make it out there in Cali. Worked multiple jobs. Putting myself through school. And know every goddamn bit of what a nickel means and what it doesn't out there. Be careful son. You just don't know who you're talking to. Waiting for the bus.

 

[Dranger]

Look man the whole thread topic is on the order of some street corner conversation while we're waiting for the bus.

And you're asking to research the avenues of advancement for BSN nursing. Just so I can piddle around with you on this. And we still end up with the same opinions we started with. Still waiting for the bus.

What I'm saying is this. I know exaclty how difficult it is to become a nurse. Not that.

But I recognize that it's a hard job. That requires increasingly sophisticated levels of knowledge and skill.

That's why I put it up there with highly skilled level pay.

This says nothing of how worthless I think CEO pay is or how I think teachers should make AT LEAST as much as nurses.

But my spitball figures say that a person with a 2 year degree should never approach the wage value of someone with 4 + 4 + 3-8 years of education and slavish work and multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars in education debt.

The other point I'm making is that nurses have this PR campaign that--FOR THE MOMENT--has everyone convinced their the self-sacrificing martyrs of patient advocacy. And I'm interested in seeing that nonsense collapse.

That's just the way I see it.

Just another dude. Waiting for the bus.

Addendum. I've sweated my balls off trying to make it out there in Cali. Worked multiple jobs. Putting myself through school. And know every goddamn bit of what a nickel means and what it doesn't out there. Be careful son. You just don't know who you're talking to. Waiting for the bus.

I agree. I also don't believe 2 year degree general nurses should make that kind of money (without overtime of course). I was talking about nurses with 6-7 years total of advanced education.

As for teachers I disagree. While they should be paid more than their current salary I don't think it should be comparable to health care providers such as nurses. Think about it, as a high school teacher you deal with a lot of disillusioned, apathetic and lazy students but the details of the job really do not substantiate high levels of pay. The undergrad curriculum is usually only a sample selection or intro to whatever subject you teach (history, English, math). You get 3 months a year essentially off and have generous break time dotted throughout the year. The job is rather secure and you don't have a boss breathing down your neck all the time. Autonomy is almost assured besides your periodical curriculum and teaching plan quality assurance checks. Lower level education is important but it just does not warrant that type of pay. You also have the option of not giving a **** about your students and their learning with little consequence (saw this a lot in high school). Besides fellow teachers/admin you do not deal with adults all day, rather it is a time warp to another pseudo high school experience all over again...I had a roommate in college who was an education major and I couldn't tell if he was getting his cert in history or drinking...


Just my opinion and not relevant to this thread I am sure there are hordes of people out there ready to tell me I am wrong and how I do not understand the hardship and effort it takes to be be a teacher working a 7-3 day with no forced OT or weekends. Ya rough.

Regarding the thread topic, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Nasrudin]

I agree. I also don't believe 2 year degree general nurses should make that kind of money (without overtime of course). I was talking about nurses with 6-7 years total of advanced education.

As for teachers I disagree. While they should be paid more than their current salary I don't think it should be comparable to health care providers such as nurses. Think about it, as a high school teacher you deal with a lot of disillusioned, apathetic and lazy students but the details of the job really do not substantiate high levels of pay. The undergrad curriculum is usually only a sample selection or intro to whatever subject you teach (history, English, math). You get 3 months a year essentially off and have generous break time dotted throughout the year. The job is rather secure and you don't have a boss breathing down your neck all the time. Autonomy is almost assured besides your periodical curriculum and teaching plan quality assurance checks. Lower level education is important but it just does not warrant that type of pay. You also have the option of not giving a **** about your students and their learning with little consequence (saw this a lot in high school). Besides fellow teachers/admin you do not deal with adults all day, rather it is a time warp to another pseudo high school experience all over again...I had a roommate in college who was an education major and I couldn't tell if he was getting his cert in history or drinking...


Just my opinion and not relevant to this thread I am sure there are hordes of people out there ready to tell me I am wrong and how I do not understand the hardship and effort it takes to be be a teacher working a 7-3 day with no forced OT or weekends. Ya rough.

Regarding the thread topic, we can agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

I disagree. Elaborating would take unnecessary time from learning medicine. I've shoveled enough BS for nurses to know. So B is for bull**** and that's good enough for me.

You won't know the difference from me in the hospital. I know you all run the mf'n show. I'm all about smiles and keepin it movin. Getting my job done the best I can with the least resistance and the best possible team work for the patient's benefit.

But politically. And in casual online discussion. The CNA and their propaganda can blow me.

 

[The right Path]

Sheesh. Only on SDN do I feel like I have to duck and weave a lot of insults and baloney about my profession. Yeah, I kinda do take it personally.

Great f'n post firecloud9.

You've provided evidence and data for something I've been saying for years. That the CNA plays a hardball dirty game. Holding the public at ransom. All the while acting the innocent martyrs of patient advocacy.

The hypocrisy cannot be sustained.

Ask people out of work who can't afford healthcare how sympathetic they are to the plight of AA degree holding 6 figure earners.

The bubble has burst.

Already hospitals are replacing overpaid nurses with more support staff. It's not so easy to get an RN gig in Cali anymore. That's the trouble with wielding the sword for so long. You tend to fall on it.

I think this shift in the public imagination about how the public sees it's nurses is necessary. For society to accurately assess what it should pay it's nurses.

I think 60-75 G's is fair for the public.

80-100. F that. They're just not that qualified. I've taken nursing courses. The knowledge and skill to perform is not worth that kind of money in a downward spiraling economy.

It's time the public take off their baby world view of the gallant and self-sacrificing nurse propaganda.

As I've said many a time. I don't belong to a union; never have, and hope to never be put in such a position that I have to in order to be gainfully employed. My reasons are that I prefer to set my own terms (which in actuality is a joke- I just accept whatever terms my employer lays down for me or I agitate the gravel). I don't like the idea of someone deciding to spend my hardearned money (in the form of membership dues) on political crap that I don't agree with. Most importantly, I don't agree that going on strike is an acceptable form of protest of terms. No matter how much notice is given and that "qualified replacements" are used to fill in so that patient care doesn't suffer or become disrupted, we all know that is not the case. I concede that I don't have an efficacious alternative. Published research that documents that patient outcomes are better when properly educated nurses care for a reasonable number of patients, but that doesn't light a fire under an employer's ass, does it.

That said, I'm curious to know exactly how these nursing unions compare to Jimmy Hoffa. Other than going on strike when their benefits are reduced.

A board certified pediatrician can barely clear over six figures. You know. The ones who take the pager for 80 hours a week to make sure your sick baby meets with effective clinical knowledge.

So I don't give a F@ck about all of your certs. Research my nuts. I've been working in healthcare for close to 10 years. Does a skilled ICU nurse impress me. F@ck yeah. Do your anemic polemics. Hardly.

That toothless mechanic keeps planes in the air.

So I don't reduce skills and knowledge to certs or whatever. But rather inherent value to someone seeking a service. Which can have very little to do with pay.

The CNA is what bullies the public into paying top dollar not any real scarcity of talent or skill.

There's a line of nurses from here to the philipines that would dismantle the wage leverage that exists on the west coast.

A med/surg nurse ought to be just as skilled as an ICU nurse. Afterall, they have to recognize a decline in condition and know how to respond appropriately without the benefit of fancy machines all the while juggling a larger patient load. Patients need an educated and skilled nurse continuously monitoring and providing care for them. That's why they are in the hospital and not at home.

And sure you could find any warm body with a pulse that could theoretically be employable as a nurse. Is that the standard of knowledge and expertise when your or your loved one's health and safety is at stake? Obviously, I believe that the care I provide is worth every cent of my earnings. Hey, you're entitled to disagree.

Look man the whole thread topic is on the order of some street corner conversation while we're waiting for the bus.

And you're asking to research the avenues of advancement for BSN nursing. Just so I can piddle around with you on this. And we still end up with the same opinions we started with. Still waiting for the bus.

What I'm saying is this. I know exaclty how difficult it is to become a nurse. Not that.

But I recognize that it's a hard job. That requires increasingly sophisticated levels of knowledge and skill.

That's why I put it up there with highly skilled level pay.

This says nothing of how worthless I think CEO pay is or how I think teachers should make AT LEAST as much as nurses.

But my spitball figures say that a person with a 2 year degree should never approach the wage value of someone with 4 + 4 + 3-8 years of education and slavish work and multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars in education debt.

The other point I'm making is that nurses have this PR campaign that--FOR THE MOMENT--has everyone convinced their the self-sacrificing martyrs of patient advocacy. And I'm interested in seeing that nonsense collapse.

That's just the way I see it.

Just another dude. Waiting for the bus.

Addendum. I've sweated my balls off trying to make it out there in Cali. Worked multiple jobs. Putting myself through school. And know every goddamn bit of what a nickel means and what it doesn't out there. Be careful son. You just don't know who you're talking to. Waiting for the bus.

So are nurses knowledgable and skilled or are they not? And that brings me to another point. ASNs have exactly the same responsibility as BSNs (when employed in the same position)- why should they be paid any less for doing the exact same work?

For all the possible examples of jobs/professions that could arguably be overcompensated, leave it to SDN to cry about what nurses make. Qualifying their judgment by having worked with nurses, having taken "nursing classes" whatever that is, but not ever actually having worked a day as a nurse.

Blaming nurses' salaries for the economy? Now that's laughable. I tend to think that it's the "spend now, pay never; rob peter to pay paul" culture and the financial institutions that cultivated such irresponsibility is the root of the bad economy. However, that is purely conjecture on my part, as I admit I've never worked a day as financial analyst, or whatever.

*Awkward silence on the bus*

Good Times.

 

[Nasrudin]

Sheesh. Only on SDN do I feel like I have to duck and weave a lot of insults and baloney about my profession. Yeah, I kinda do take it personally.



As I've said many a time. I don't belong to a union; never have, and hope to never be put in such a position that I have to in order to be gainfully employed. My reasons are that I prefer to set my own terms (which in actuality is a joke- I just accept whatever terms my employer lays down for me or I agitate the gravel). I don't like the idea of someone deciding to spend my hardearned money (in the form of membership dues) on political crap that I don't agree with. Most importantly, I don't agree that going on strike is an acceptable form of protest of terms. No matter how much notice is given and that "qualified replacements" are used to fill in so that patient care doesn't suffer or become disrupted, we all know that is not the case. I concede that I don't have an efficacious alternative. Published research that documents that patient outcomes are better when properly educated nurses care for a reasonable number of patients, but that doesn't light a fire under an employer's ass, does it.

That said, I'm curious to know exactly how these nursing unions compare to Jimmy Hoffa. Other than going on strike when their benefits are reduced.



A med/surg nurse ought to be just as skilled as an ICU nurse. Afterall, they have to recognize a decline in condition and know how to respond appropriately without the benefit of fancy machines all the while juggling a larger patient load. Patients need an educated and skilled nurse continuously monitoring and providing care for them. That's why they are in the hospital and not at home.

And sure you could find any warm body with a pulse that could theoretically be employable as a nurse. Is that the standard of knowledge and expertise when your or your loved one's health and safety is at stake? Obviously, I believe that the care I provide is worth every cent of my earnings. Hey, you're entitled to disagree.


So are nurses knowledgable and skilled or are they not? And that brings me to another point. ASNs have exactly the same responsibility as BSNs (when employed in the same position)- why should they be paid any less for doing the exact same work?

For all the possible examples of jobs/professions that could arguably be overcompensated, leave it to SDN to cry about what nurses make. Qualifying their judgment by having worked with nurses, having taken "nursing classes" whatever that is, but not ever actually having worked a day as a nurse.

Blaming nurses' salaries for the economy? Now that's laughable. I tend to think that it's the "spend now, pay never; rob peter to pay paul" culture and the financial institutions that cultivated such irresponsibility is the root of the bad economy. However, that is purely conjecture on my part, as I admit I've never worked a day as financial analyst, or whatever.

*Awkward silence on the bus*

Good Times.

There are sites that would be quite the opposite in politics. But your a nurse going to medical school I presume. So your on our side of the fence.

Deal with it. Just as I had to and will have to in the hospital, outnumbered and outgunned, both before and after medical school.

Your complaints about overwork and underpay or underrespect do not hit my ears that sympathetically.

I don't blame nurses for an economy. I don't get where you read that. Nor do I not support unions. I'm just aware of how in certain situations unions can own the waterfront. As the CNA does.

You're a highly trained and skilled individual whether you work in outpatient peds or inpatient medsurg.

But if It was my payroll. In a Nasrudinocracy. Like I said. I pay you 60-75 G's. Maybe a little more if I needed the talent in certain areas.

If that gets you bent out of shape. I don't know what to tell you. Your welcome to dislike me and everything i say. But it's still what i straight honest think.

 

[Nasrudin]

It really for me, as it always does, comes down to a distaste for hypocrisy.

You saw the data in fireclouds post.

So that means you all are doing really well under the CNA, whether you pay dues or not. Wage leverage is always about union density. You benefit by having higher wages across town and so on.

If you're working in private practice and getting treated like crap....that's another story. But your wages are effected by CNA politics. No way around it.

What I hope to see. Is that you all will have the same problem we have. A public perception problem that in some ways accurately portrays the natural tension between our public service PR and the fact that we all are increasingly the last bastions of middle class life.

What I see instead--for the time being is the Big Medicine and it's greedy docs vis a vis the lowly downtrodden People's Nursing Liberation Front.

This is patently ridiculous. People just don't know yet. And they still consider the aforementioned scenario a close proximity of truth.

So when I mention things like effort and difficulty and pay and relative education debt and accurate value of training--these are things that would bring these competing PR narratives into more realistic perspective.

Which are up for quite heated debate.

But. Just because I call BS. Doesn't mean you have to take it emotionally.

I'm more than willing to call BS within in medicine. And am barely relatable to my colleagues when doing it.

To be completely honest now that i think of it. My non-nursing unionized work in healthcare was definitely overcompensated. But it was only because the hospital managers recognized they couldn't afford to injure or spread thin their overly expensive nurses from doing just exactly what their licenses commanded them. So the crumbs from the CNA table fell juicy and succulent.

But if asked by the public. Why i could make so much when a pittance of training was required. A petulant squeek in between stuffing myself with crumbs would be all I could muster.

So yeah. All in all. The CNA pulls of a masterful lie. And I was there to see it all.

Whether you like my unqualified opinion or not.

 

[fab4fan]

Having "taken a few nursing courses" or knowing someone who is a nurse may make you more familiar with nursing, but it doesn't mean you know it. Really, you're the kind who is dangerous to nurses: just enough knowledge about the job to make you a major PIA to the nursing staff.

I'm not going to comment on the wages issue, because I've never seen the sort of money people are tossing around, nor will I. Do I think I deserve more? Sure. Will I get it? Nope.

 

[Nasrudin]

Having "taken a few nursing courses" or knowing someone who is a nurse may make you more familiar with nursing, but it doesn't mean you know it. Really, you're the kind who is dangerous to nurses: just enough knowledge about the job to make you a major PIA to the nursing staff.

I'm not going to comment on the wages issue, because I've never seen the sort of money people are tossing around, nor will I. Do I think I deserve more? Sure. Will I get it? Nope.

ok boss.

pia how? how exactly could i change the course of anything? if you saw me out in the world it'd be yes ma'am/yes sir. you wouldn't even guess my satirical thoughts about systems and organizations. as they don't pertain to individuals and patient care interactions.

these are just thought vibrations. and yes. i know as much about nursing as you all do about medicne or what it's like to work for nurses. so smoke on that next time your're stickin it to THE MAN.

and go to another site if you don't like being challenged.

 

[zenman]

ok boss.

pia how? how exactly could i change the course of anything? if you saw me out in the world it'd be yes ma'am/yes sir. you wouldn't even guess my satirical thoughts about systems and organizations. as they don't pertain to individuals and patient care interactions.

these are just thought vibrations. and yes. i know as much about nursing as you all do about medicne or what it's like to work for nurses. so smoke on that next time your're stickin it to THE MAN.

and go to another site if you don't like being challenged.

Hey, I'm always challenging people and they call me crazy (in spite of being hired at every place I've been interviewed at and with excellent references), get all huffy and then leave. What am I to do with my spare time??

 

[zenman]

As for teachers I disagree. While they should be paid more than their current salary I don't think it should be comparable to health care providers such as nurses. Think about it, as a high school teacher you deal with a lot of disillusioned, apathetic and lazy students but the details of the job really do not substantiate high levels of pay. The undergrad curriculum is usually only a sample selection or intro to whatever subject you teach (history, English, math). You get 3 months a year essentially off and have generous break time dotted throughout the year. The job is rather secure and you don't have a boss breathing down your neck all the time. Autonomy is almost assured besides your periodical curriculum and teaching plan quality assurance checks. Lower level education is important but it just does not warrant that type of pay. You also have the option of not giving a **** about your students and their learning with little consequence (saw this a lot in high school). Besides fellow teachers/admin you do not deal with adults all day, rather it is a time warp to another pseudo high school experience all over again...I had a roommate in college who was an education major and I couldn't tell if he was getting his cert in history or drinking...


Just my opinion and not relevant to this thread I am sure there are hordes of people out there ready to tell me I am wrong and how I do not understand the hardship and effort it takes to be be a teacher working a 7-3 day with no forced OT or weekends. Ya rough.

Regarding the thread topic, we can agree to disagree.

I have a teacher wife and I'd dig ditches before I put up with the crap she has to deal with. All her breaks (which are now much shorter) are used to recuperate from her job. They are now expected to train kids and be parents for them since their lazy azz parents don't want the job raising them. I've run into many former teachers now in healthcare. You better hide this post from teachers!

 

[Nasrudin]

You know what fab...we have met before.

You had me thinking and wondering how I was being offensive. Where exactly did I go wrong with expressing potentially contentious ideas. Ideas man. Ways of looking at things. Not permanent dispositions that inform every interpersonal and working relation.

And then it came to me....we have met before,

Your the one with a vague but deeply felt angst and unease. Thinking that the barely educated half-wit that you tell to wash down your patient is actually a deadly smart mf'er. Who's got 10 years of mental notes of everything that goes wrong in your territory.

Don't worry I'm no hater. I have no ill intent. And no spiteful bent of mind. Just want to pay back my loans and work hard as a doc.

But I can tell you this. I'm glad I aint you. Sure glad I didn't become a nurse. And end up with a bitter taste in my mouth most of the day.

Hangin around a doctor website. Waitin for someone like me to take a shot at.

Note. Note again. What is at hand is paying 6 fig's for RN'S. In a bankrupt state. idk what goes on in idaho or whatever place you work. But get up to speed and on topic. This is the CNA. They can shut down a governor who f@cks with them. This isn't some cowpoke community hospital where doctor's are demigods and nurse's ask for piss breaks.

 

[Nasrudin]

Hey, I'm always challenging people and they call me crazy (in spite of being hired at every place I've been interviewed at and with excellent references), get all huffy and then leave. What am I to do with my spare time??

Zen,

I'm actually very interested in your ideas about shamanism and psychiatry.

And look forward to reading your posts.

After I get my feet wet in the field I was planning on contacting you for information.

But another time.

 

[zenman]

Zen,

I'm actually very interested in your ideas about shamanism and psychiatry.

And look forward to reading your posts.

After I get my feet wet in the field I was planning on contacting you for information.

But another time.

Anytime. Will be my pleasure.

 

[The right Path]

There are sites that would be quite the opposite in politics. But your a nurse going to medical school I presume. So your on our side of the fence.

Deal with it. Just as I had to and will have to in the hospital, outnumbered and outgunned, both before and after medical school.

Your complaints about overwork and underpay or underrespect do not hit my ears that sympathetically.

I don't blame nurses for an economy. I don't get where you read that. Nor do I not support unions. I'm just aware of how in certain situations unions can own the waterfront. As the CNA does.

You're a highly trained and skilled individual whether you work in outpatient peds or inpatient medsurg.

But if It was my payroll. In a Nasrudinocracy. Like I said. I pay you 60-75 G's. Maybe a little more if I needed the talent in certain areas.

If that gets you bent out of shape. I don't know what to tell you. Your welcome to dislike me and everything i say. But it's still what i straight honest think.

Nas,

Don't get me wrong. You are one of my fav SDNers. I am not the kinda girl that has to love every detail or agree without qualification in order to appreciate the gestalt. I'm a Raider fan, 'nuff said.

I also don't cry into my Theraflu everytime someone slights a nurse. My loyalty to nursing isn't a knee-jerk, nor an appeal for fairness. I went into nursing in good faith, and continue to practice nursing in good faith. I believe in the value of caring for our fellow humans. Like medicine, we need to preserve the integrity of the profession of nursing because we need nurses to be exceptionally educated, skilled, and compassionate.

I don't need to sell nursing down the river because I'm embracing a different challenge and a new frontier. I don't need to choose a side of the fence.

When have you heard me complain of being underpaid, overworked, or underrespected? I've always said that I'm compensated fairly. I've also said I've earned every cent I've ever been paid. I feel overworked when I feel that I'm spread too thin and can't do as much as I would like to do for my patients. Having to prioritize to just cover the safety and basic necessities because I'm caught up in a sh*tstorm isn't very satisfying (for me or my patients). And when it's been 12+ hours and you haven't peed since you left your house and you're still looking at a crapload of meaningless documentation that needs to be done- yeah, that's pretty disheartening. I've never said nursing is all warm fuzzy blankies and fluffy pillows, but I try not to complain too much. I don't want to be THAT girl.

Are my non-union salary and working conditions better because of those union beeyotches down the street? I've always admitted so. I find that sad. I guess that makes me even worse. I reap the fruit of the labors I look down my nose on. Shameful. I'm still idealistic enough to believe that nursing can elevate itself above such things, and maybe that could have been my mission if I hadn't chosen this crazy adventure.

This post is pretty random and disorganized. I realize I'm jumping from topic to topic. There were just a few things I wanted to address. I disagree that nursing assistants are overpaid. There are some that don't earn their keep, that's true no matter where you go and what you do. Providing a service that attends to maintaining another person's safety, comfort, cleanliness, and dignity is a valuable service and should be compensated accordingly. And that's not because nurses are too precious and expensive to provide those same services. They do!!!

For two units with potentially 24 occupied beds, we had one aide. I saw her ONCE in her 8 hour shift (there are no aides in my unit after 1530). She asked if I needed help with anything. I didn't at the time. I'm not saying she didn't spend her time helping patients. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't- I'm way too busy to keep track of what other people are doing. The point is, my patients at various times needed to be turned, needed to be spoonfed, needed poop cleanup, needed oral care, needed assistance in and out of guerney chairs, and needed to be transfered and admitted. Obviously I'm not too expensive or precious to peform all those duties- and I have no problem with that. The reason that nurses have helpers is because in addition to all of those duties, there are assessments to be done, medications to be given, documentation, teaching the family for the umpteenth time about the plan of care, labs to be drawn, dressings to be changed, physicians to be called, and on and on. The reason that nurses (in theory) have helpers is because when you load all of that on one person to juggle, balls get dropped, and that is not acceptable. Oh and it's also not acceptable to injure a spinal cord, extubate, pull out a PEG or central line by trying to go rogue cleaning up a code brown/changing the sheets or whatever all by yourself.


I'm not really sure what you mean by FireCloud's "data". Just about anything he posts regarding nursing I consider intractibly misguided musings, not data. He's the future nursing administrator and union leader that I dread. He's not pursuing nursing because he feels particularly well-suited to provide an essential service to vulnerable people. Rather it's an escape hatch from a failure of a career because nursing seems to be expedient and financially secure. Not to mention the blatant disdain for the profession itself. Of course my hackles are raised.

 

[The right Path]

You know what fab...we have met before.

You had me thinking and wondering how I was being offensive. Where exactly did I go wrong with expressing potentially contentious ideas. Ideas man. Ways of looking at things. Not permanent dispositions that inform every interpersonal and working relation.

And then it came to me....we have met before,

Your the one with a vague but deeply felt angst and unease. Thinking that the barely educated half-wit that you tell to wash down your patient is actually a deadly smart mf'er. Who's got 10 years of mental notes of everything that goes wrong in your territory.

Don't worry I'm no hater. I have no ill intent. And no spiteful bent of mind. Just want to pay back my loans and work hard as a doc.

But I can tell you this. I'm glad I aint you. Sure glad I didn't become a nurse. And end up with a bitter taste in my mouth most of the day.

Hangin around a doctor website. Waitin for someone like me to take a shot at.

Note. Note again. What is at hand is paying 6 fig's for RN'S. In a bankrupt state. idk what goes on in idaho or whatever place you work. But get up to speed and on topic. This is the CNA. They can shut down a governor who f@cks with them. This isn't some cowpoke community hospital where doctor's are demigods and nurse's ask for piss breaks.

Believe it or not, most nurses don't go around with a bitter taste in their mouths everyday, trolling SDN. Let me back up- the nurses that I am personally acquainted with.

And if you feel that if you had chosen nursing that you would have ended up with a bitter taste in your mouth, then you certainly made the right decision by not going down that road. Let's hope that you don't find yourself equally as disillusioned as a physician.

The CNA shut down a governor? What are you talking about? Nas- where were you when Arnie effectively c*ckblocked patient ratio legislation for FOUR years?!?! You want to talk about healthcare politicking? Please at least include the hospital association lobbyists.

 

[Nasrudin]

Well. You make excellent points.

I guess it's just a question of relative emphasis. I mean. I'm 40 man. Before healthcare I worked all kinds of physical labor. With hard working guys who despite a lifetime in the trades or fishing or whatever wouldn't ever hope to make a fraction of what we're talking about.

And this says nothing about what they knew. What they could build. What it took to make it at sea against all the elements. What kind of guts it took to cross the border to make a better life for your family. How much some had going against them with a criminal record.

So that. What I've found is that people who went right from high school and their parents house to a making good money in healthcare have no F'n idea what kind of dues most people pay to eek out the most meager livings.

We've got benefits and good wages. We work indoors--warm in the winter, cool in the summer, dry when it rains.

And what did we do to make it on this gravy train. In my old wage class. It's a C student in high school. Who manages some small course of training. Where they essentially learn to take vitals. And we pulled 20/hr plus.

And I'm sorry if this hurts but if you didn't agree you wouldn't be headed to med school so... but when I sat in through all the CCSF prenursing sciences I couldn't believe the amount of complaint from the class about some basic straight ahead coursework. It might have been the one of the key things that steered me away. The fact that I could ace it without breaking a sweat and they struggled and complained. And that was their weed out ****. Like our physics and o-chem etc.

Add to that. I've encountered some real nursing bully shakedowns. Where I had no where to turn. Didn't matter who was right. They had every angle of power up the chain. And it was get bent over a table or go looking for work in a ****ty economy while I was trying to get my biology degree and stay afloat in SF.

So yeah. Experience with the worst of some things can really open your eyes up to how things work. At least as how the CNA sees it in their paradise. Which is nursing Stalinism.

It's that power dynamic I seek to expose.


Do we work hard taking care of sick people. Yes. Anyone, such as yourself who still gives ****, has no shortage of trials and tribulations on any given day.

But Nurse's are not underpaid in California. No one wants to say their overpaid. It's not rational. But if you take the population perspective. Like the income charts in the links to Firecloud's post. And think like a tax payer or an insurance policy holder or let alone someone paying out of pocket. The numbers are clear. Healthcare is becoming disproportionately compensated to the rest of the work force. We can't ignore that the people we take care of our increasingly struggling to pay for what we're giving.

So what's the total labor pie is my point. And what does it mean to be paid what. I've paid some serious mf'n dues to get where I'm at. My debt is f'n ridiculous. The public does not even conceive of the amount of work and sacrifice it takes to become a physician. While it can easily understand who is bedside for most of their stay. So that the CNA has worked a narrative of epic hollywood proportions with this advantage. that is the point of my raps on this thread page.


Wow. This post was more like a concept album.

 

[Dranger]

Well. You make excellent points.

I guess it's just a question of relative emphasis. I mean. I'm 40 man. Before healthcare I worked all kinds of physical labor. With hard working guys who despite a lifetime in the trades or fishing or whatever wouldn't ever hope to make a fraction of what we're talking about.

And this says nothing about what they knew. What they could build. What it took to make it at sea against all the elements. What kind of guts it took to cross the border to make a better life for your family. How much some had going against them with a criminal record.

So that. What I've found is that people who went right from high school and their parents house to a making good money in healthcare have no F'n idea what kind of dues most people pay to eek out the most meager livings.

We've got benefits and good wages. We work indoors--warm in the winter, cool in the summer, dry when it rains.

And what did we do to make it on this gravy train. In my old wage class. It's a C student in high school. Who manages some small course of training. Where they essentially learn to take vitals. And we pulled 20/hr plus.

And I'm sorry if this hurts but if you didn't agree you wouldn't be headed to med school so... but when I sat in through all the CCSF prenursing sciences I couldn't believe the amount of complaint from the class about some basic straight ahead coursework. It might have been the one of the key things that steered me away. The fact that I could ace it without breaking a sweat and they struggled and complained. And that was their weed out ****. Like our physics and o-chem etc.

Add to that. I've encountered some real nursing bully shakedowns. Where I had no where to turn. Didn't matter who was right. They had every angle of power up the chain. And it was get bent over a table or go looking for work in a ****ty economy while I was trying to get my biology degree and stay afloat in SF.

So yeah. Experience with the worst of some things can really open your eyes up to how things work. At least as how the CNA sees it in their paradise. Which is nursing Stalinism.

It's that power dynamic I seek to expose.


Do we work hard taking care of sick people. Yes. Anyone, such as yourself who still gives ****, has no shortage of trials and tribulations on any given day.

But Nurse's are not underpaid in California. No one wants to say their overpaid. It's not rational. But if you take the population perspective. Like the income charts in the links to Firecloud's post. And think like a tax payer or an insurance policy holder or let alone someone paying out of pocket. The numbers are clear. Healthcare is becoming disproportionately compensated to the rest of the work force. We can't ignore that the people we take care of our increasingly struggling to pay for what we're giving.

So what's the total labor pie is my point. And what does it mean to be paid what. I've paid some serious mf'n dues to get where I'm at. My debt is f'n ridiculous. The public does not even conceive of the amount of work and sacrifice it takes to become a physician. While it can easily understand who is bedside for most of their stay. So that the CNA has worked a narrative of epic hollywood proportions with this advantage. that is the point of my raps on this thread page.


Wow. This post was more like a concept album.

Ah c'mon, physics and O-chem weren't THAT bad haha. I will admit though CC nursing pre reqs are a joke but not so much a joke at a 4 year university. Pathophysiology was harder than most of my pre-med bio courses.

 

[Nasrudin]

Ah c'mon, physics and O-chem weren't THAT bad haha. I will admit though CC nursing pre reqs are a joke but not so much a joke at a 4 year university. Pathophysiology was harder than most of my pre-med bio courses.

CCSF is no joke. These things are not universally applicable. Perhaps this is the thing that all of our experiences reveal.

Medicine isn't bad academically. It's not engineering. It just takes a decade. And hundreds of thousands of dollars if you don't get into your state school.

 

[fab4fan]

The difference between you and me is I never claimed to know all about medicine/being a doctor.

 

[fab4fan]

ok boss.

pia how? how exactly could i change the course of anything? if you saw me out in the world it'd be yes ma'am/yes sir. you wouldn't even guess my satirical thoughts about systems and organizations. as they don't pertain to individuals and patient care interactions.

these are just thought vibrations. and yes. i know as much about nursing as you all do about medicne or what it's like to work for nurses. so smoke on that next time your're stickin it to THE MAN.

and go to another site if you don't like being challenged.

And you called me "Boss." 🙄

 

[fab4fan]

You know what fab...we have met before.

You had me thinking and wondering how I was being offensive. Where exactly did I go wrong with expressing potentially contentious ideas. Ideas man. Ways of looking at things. Not permanent dispositions that inform every interpersonal and working relation.

And then it came to me....we have met before,

Your the one with a vague but deeply felt angst and unease. Thinking that the barely educated half-wit that you tell to wash down your patient is actually a deadly smart mf'er. Who's got 10 years of mental notes of everything that goes wrong in your territory.

Don't worry I'm no hater. I have no ill intent. And no spiteful bent of mind. Just want to pay back my loans and work hard as a doc.

But I can tell you this. I'm glad I aint you. Sure glad I didn't become a nurse. And end up with a bitter taste in my mouth most of the day.

Hangin around a doctor website. Waitin for someone like me to take a shot at.

Note. Note again. What is at hand is paying 6 fig's for RN'S. In a bankrupt state. idk what goes on in idaho or whatever place you work. But get up to speed and on topic. This is the CNA. They can shut down a governor who f@cks with them. This isn't some cowpoke community hospital where doctor's are demigods and nurse's ask for piss breaks.

Your post is so incoherent it looks like something someone deeply psychotic would write.

That chip you have on your shoulder must make it really hard to get through your day.

You're right about one thing: I do have vague but deeply felt angst and unease. But that probably has more to do with me worrying about what the cancer I have is going to do to me today, not about my job. I don't even work right now. The only bitter taste I have in my mouth comes from my meds. It's not from "doctor envy." Try to wrap your head around the fact that not all nurses want to be doctors. I've been pretty clear consistently on that point for the last ten years I've been here.

If you have an issue with me and other nurses posting here, ask the mods. to close posting to nurses. Ask them not to have a forum where nurses can post.

And yes, I am aware that the conversation has been mostly about the CNA (which doesn't represent me; I don't live in CA). Conversations take all kinds of twists and turns, and not every comment has been solely related to that issue.

I remember you, too, and all those posts about what to do with your career several years ago.

 

[fab4fan]

Nas,

Don't get me wrong. You are one of my fav SDNers. I am not the kinda girl that has to love every detail or agree without qualification in order to appreciate the gestalt. I'm a Raider fan, 'nuff said.

I also don't cry into my Theraflu everytime someone slights a nurse. My loyalty to nursing isn't a knee-jerk, nor an appeal for fairness. I went into nursing in good faith, and continue to practice nursing in good faith. I believe in the value of caring for our fellow humans. Like medicine, we need to preserve the integrity of the profession of nursing because we need nurses to be exceptionally educated, skilled, and compassionate.

I don't need to sell nursing down the river because I'm embracing a different challenge and a new frontier. I don't need to choose a side of the fence.

When have you heard me complain of being underpaid, overworked, or underrespected? I've always said that I'm compensated fairly. I've also said I've earned every cent I've ever been paid. I feel overworked when I feel that I'm spread too thin and can't do as much as I would like to do for my patients. Having to prioritize to just cover the safety and basic necessities because I'm caught up in a sh*tstorm isn't very satisfying (for me or my patients). And when it's been 12+ hours and you haven't peed since you left your house and you're still looking at a crapload of meaningless documentation that needs to be done- yeah, that's pretty disheartening. I've never said nursing is all warm fuzzy blankies and fluffy pillows, but I try not to complain too much. I don't want to be THAT girl.

Are my non-union salary and working conditions better because of those union beeyotches down the street? I've always admitted so. I find that sad. I guess that makes me even worse. I reap the fruit of the labors I look down my nose on. Shameful. I'm still idealistic enough to believe that nursing can elevate itself above such things, and maybe that could have been my mission if I hadn't chosen this crazy adventure.

This post is pretty random and disorganized. I realize I'm jumping from topic to topic. There were just a few things I wanted to address. I disagree that nursing assistants are overpaid. There are some that don't earn their keep, that's true no matter where you go and what you do. Providing a service that attends to maintaining another person's safety, comfort, cleanliness, and dignity is a valuable service and should be compensated accordingly. And that's not because nurses are too precious and expensive to provide those same services. They do!!!

For two units with potentially 24 occupied beds, we had one aide. I saw her ONCE in her 8 hour shift (there are no aides in my unit after 1530). She asked if I needed help with anything. I didn't at the time. I'm not saying she didn't spend her time helping patients. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't- I'm way too busy to keep track of what other people are doing. The point is, my patients at various times needed to be turned, needed to be spoonfed, needed poop cleanup, needed oral care, needed assistance in and out of guerney chairs, and needed to be transfered and admitted. Obviously I'm not too expensive or precious to peform all those duties- and I have no problem with that. The reason that nurses have helpers is because in addition to all of those duties, there are assessments to be done, medications to be given, documentation, teaching the family for the umpteenth time about the plan of care, labs to be drawn, dressings to be changed, physicians to be called, and on and on. The reason that nurses (in theory) have helpers is because when you load all of that on one person to juggle, balls get dropped, and that is not acceptable. Oh and it's also not acceptable to injure a spinal cord, extubate, pull out a PEG or central line by trying to go rogue cleaning up a code brown/changing the sheets or whatever all by yourself.


I'm not really sure what you mean by FireCloud's "data". Just about anything he posts regarding nursing I consider intractibly misguided musings, not data. He's the future nursing administrator and union leader that I dread. He's not pursuing nursing because he feels particularly well-suited to provide an essential service to vulnerable people. Rather it's an escape hatch from a failure of a career because nursing seems to be expedient and financially secure. Not to mention the blatant disdain for the profession itself. Of course my hackles are raised.

👍

 

[Nasrudin]

I don't know what it's like to BE a nurse. Never said that.

I DO know about how difficult it is to become one. What their daily work life consists of in various fields. And the caliber of individual that can make it or not make it as one.

Like medicine. It's not all about inherent brightness or talent. Like the many of the proponents of top dollar pay like to claim. It's a lot of diligent and caring effort. The scale of which should resemble some piece of the available public resources that we have in relation to all the involved parties and the relative sacrafice/reward ratio of obtaining the career.

My prediction for the future is that BSN's will become like physicians. Managing a small cadre of LVN's. Doing the more skilled and knowledge requisite work.

These are cost pressure induced realities.

If you want to make the kind of money the CNA is stipulating the public will eventually intervene. The job will have to change to managerial roles.

This is a major reason why I'm interested in psychiatry. Because my impulse to work in healthcare is not one of interest in personnel management. But one on one work with patients.

Regardless. I depart the discussion for the coming week. Med school is a lot of work. And these discussions tend to occupy to much of my thoughts due to natural interest in them.

Fab, I would like to be more cordial. But that requires engaging thoughtfully instead of just sniping and proclaiming I'm a future PIA to nurses. That was insulting and hurt my feelings. Because I pride myself on good team play above all. You don't know me that well. And these are just philosophical and ideological arguments I have not manifest or individual ones.

 

[Nasrudin]

Your post is so incoherent it looks like something someone deeply psychotic would write.

That chip you have on your shoulder must make it really hard to get through your day.

You're right about one thing: I do have vague but deeply felt angst and unease. But that probably has more to do with me worrying about what the cancer I have is going to do to me today, not about my job. I don't even work right now. The only bitter taste I have in my mouth comes from my meds. It's not from "doctor envy." Try to wrap your head around the fact that not all nurses want to be doctors. I've been pretty clear consistently on that point for the last ten years I've been here.

If you have an issue with me and other nurses posting here, ask the mods. to close posting to nurses. Ask them not to have a forum where nurses can post.

And yes, I am aware that the conversation has been mostly about the CNA (which doesn't represent me; I don't live in CA). Conversations take all kinds of twists and turns, and not every comment has been solely related to that issue.

I remember you, too, and all those posts about what to do with your career several years ago.

I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune.

Good luck. Best wishes.

I won't deny that I'm on guard with nurse-centric managers and culture. Experience has taught me to be wary of their groupthink.

But I'm sorry to have gotten personal with you about it.

I dearly hope you can recover. And please post as you desire.

 

[The right Path]

I don't know what it's like to BE a nurse. Never said that.

I DO know about how difficult it is to become one. What their daily work life consists of in various fields. And the caliber of individual that can make it or not make it as one.

Like medicine. It's not all about inherent brightness or talent. Like the many of the proponents of top dollar pay like to claim. It's a lot of diligent and caring effort. The scale of which should resemble some piece of the available public resources that we have in relation to all the involved parties and the relative sacrafice/reward ratio of obtaining the career.

My prediction for the future is that BSN's will become like physicians. Managing a small cadre of LVN's. Doing the more skilled and knowledge requisite work.

These are cost pressure induced realities.

If you want to make the kind of money the CNA is stipulating the public will eventually intervene. The job will have to change to managerial roles.

This is a major reason why I'm interested in psychiatry. Because my impulse to work in healthcare is not one of interest in personnel management. But one on one work with patients.

Regardless. I depart the discussion for the coming week. Med school is a lot of work. And these discussions tend to occupy to much of my thoughts due to natural interest in them.

Fab, I would like to be more cordial. But that requires engaging thoughtfully instead of just sniping and proclaiming I'm a future PIA to nurses. That was insulting and hurt my feelings. Because I pride myself on good team play above all. You don't know me that well. And these are just philosophical and ideological arguments I have not manifest or individual ones.

I for one do not want to see the RN role morphing into a more managerial-type role. And I don't see it going that way. The RN is the constant bedside presence for the patient, and in order to do justice for that role, nurses need to be sleeves rolled up, hands on, with a strong background in science, particularly pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. Of course with regard to a patient's comfort and dignity. That's kinda my vision for nursing, anyway.

And actually, there is far less utilization of LVNs these days. My hospital does not employ any (for inpatient care, anyway). The reasoning is- the amount of formal education an LVN receives in LVN school isn't adequate for complete nursing care of acutely ill patients. An RN would have to micromanage the tasks of the LVN anyway- it's really not an efficient or cost effective model. Personally, I would not take a position that required me to be responsible for an LVN. And that's not a snub against LVNs- I just feel that if I'm going to be accountable for everything, I'd rather just do it all myself.

And as far as managerial roles go, I tend to think that is where an awful lot of healthcare dollar waste goes. Granted, I am not an expert in healthcare economics, budgets, etc. My two cents are just that. I've never wanted to mess around with the business aspect of healthcare, but it always seems to be dredged up no matter what.

Here are a few of my observations:
The hospital/system essentially "pretends" to bill for a huge, minutely itemized (sometimes inaccurate) sum that it never truly expects anybody to pay. The insurance company essentially "pretends" to pay the bill by reimbursing for a mere fraction of the bill. And that agreement is shared by both parties. The hospital system spends a fair amount of money employing individuals to ensure that anything billable will be billed and this requires documentation, paperwork, auditing, cajoling, scolding, and wristslapping. The insurance company spends its own fair share of resources scrutinizing for any reason not to pay. To me, it's a pretty ridiculous system that I don't even want get tangled up in.

The CNA? I really don't know what they're up to. Honestly. That's why I ask. They don't represent me. But I sure as hell don't want anyone making a disgrace out of MY profession. No matter where my education takes me, or where my career goes, I think I'll always feel that way.

Nas- certainly your family and studies are your priorities. I appreciate your participation in these messy conversations. Best of luck to you. Make us proud; er- keep making us proud.

Fab4fan- Gosh, I'm sorry to hear about your fight with cancer. I hope you have good people taking care of you and that you feel much better very soon. I appreciate the contribution from a fellow nurse who's been there and done that and clearly still cares very much for nursing as a profession.

 

[Duluth]

My prediction for the future is that BSN's will become like physicians. Managing a small cadre of LVN's. Doing the more skilled and knowledge requisite work.

.

Can't wait for LVN's to run ECMO or take a post op LVAD 😉

 

[RDlv]

Can't wait for LVN's to run ECMO or take a post op LVAD 😉

F' that noise. I'm a value as a critical care RN because I have a brain in my head, because I'm there for 12hrs observing, reporting, intervening, anticipating. I ain't no damn middle manager. And I'm directly accountable for MY duties.

 

[FireCloud9]

I'm not really sure what you mean by FireCloud's "data". Just about anything he posts regarding nursing I consider intractibly misguided musings, not data. He's the future nursing administrator and union leader that I dread. He's not pursuing nursing because he feels particularly well-suited to provide an essential service to vulnerable people. Rather it's an escape hatch from a failure of a career because nursing seems to be expedient and financially secure. Not to mention the blatant disdain for the profession itself. Of course my hackles are raised.

Please, share. What exactly is the "misguided musing"? 🙄 I believe the "data" is in reference to this post:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12096485&postcount=278

Perhaps my understanding is incorrect. Enlighten me. I'm all ears. 😉

Future nursing administrator! Thanks for the promotion, but let me finish my classes first. 😀

I feel extremely well-suited to do what any CA RN does. 😉 A NYC RN? Hmm, perhaps not as well suited.

Nursing is expedient (2yr degree). You don't even need a bachelors, and it's more financially secure than an MBA, J.D., or EE. Not only that, the hours, OT (which doesn't exist in any of those professions), and lack of business travel make it a much sweeter deal.

Compared to nursing, I don't consider my job loss a failure, I consider having not discovered and entered the nursing profession earlier the failure. Where else can you have a protected job, no travel, and make six figures with just an Associate Degree?

By the way, all I hear out of those attending nursing school right now, is how much they all talk about the money aspect (I'm told a certain Northern California hospital is now paying $76 an hour)

Lets review shall we?

Consider this, 1st year nurses in Northern CA make $100k+. That's an RN with an ASN (2yr degree) or BSN (4yr degree).

Compare to the World's Top MBA programs: http://officialmbaguide.org/top40.php?rnk=salary [4yr college + 2yr MBA]

Compare to starting salaries for Engineers: http://www.eng.lsu.edu/news/2009/7/e...ational-survey and http://www.payscale.com/best-college...g-colleges.asp [4yrs college though usually takes 5-6 to complete]

Compare to starting salaries for Lawyers: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_b...al-jurist.html [4yrs college + 3yrs JD]

It's no wonder the ABSN program around here have a pipeline of MBAs, lawyers and engineers! Lets see, a 2yr associates at a community college or 5-8 years of college and grad school... hmm, tough choice.

Top that off with patient to nurse ratio (I love it!!!) I'm sure many MBAs, JDs and EEs wish they had a ratio or OT or no travel or even a 3-4 day workweek!

"In 1999, they persuaded the state Legislature to pass a first-in-the-nation law setting nurse-to-patient ratios: the maximum number of patients assigned to a licensed nurse at any one time.

The staffing ratios, implemented in 2004, range from one nurse for every patient in a trauma unit, to one nurse for every four patients in a specialty-care unit."

"It's a huge cost for hospitals," Spetz said, estimating about one-sixth of a hospital's total budget goes toward compensation of registered nurses, licensed vocational nurses and nurses aides.

Highest nursing pay in U.S.

For many CNA members, there's a more potent measure of the union's success: Nursing pay, already higher in California than anywhere else, is rising fast.

The average salary for a California registered nurse grew from $57,855 in 2001 to $88,714 in 2011, according to the state Employment Development Department. Adjusted for inflation, that represents a 21 percent pay hike, compared with an 8 percent pay bump for other California workers during that span.

At the current pace, the average salary for a California registered nurse will eclipse six figures in three years.

The arguments, the walkouts, the pay increases – all are likely to continue as long as demand for nurses remains strong. In 2010, as the state buckled under 12 percent unemployment, the jobless rate among nurses was 1.8 percent, census figures show.

"We're still seeing demand," said Terri Carpenter, the agency's spokeswoman. "But we can only train so many a year. There's only so much space at the colleges."

• Do Northern California nurses not have the highest nursing pay in the U.S.?
• Are those average salary figures not correct?
• Is the nurse unemployment rate wrong?

If so, feel free to contact the newspaper that did the fact checking and published the article from which I cut/pasted.

I am not saying every nurse is worth 80-100k but are there those out there? Most definitely yes.

We're not talking about the exception to the rule. When hospitals hire new RNs, do they not get paid the same or does a BSN make more than an ASN? And if an RN has 5 yrs experience, do they not get paid comparably to an RN that has 5yrs of experience? As I understand it, it's not a pay for performance model.

I agree. I also don't believe 2 year degree general nurses should make that kind of money (without overtime of course). I was talking about nurses with 6-7 years total of advanced education.

As for teachers I disagree. While they should be paid more than their current salary I don't think it should be comparable to health care providers such as nurses.

That's the point though. An RN with an ASN does make that kind of money. They make the same. Unlike MBAs, JDs, EEs and countless other professions where new grads (usually with a 4yr Bachelor and professional degree) do not get paid the same as their peers, and certainly do not get paid the same as their more educated peers even though they may be doing the same job (there are exceptions, but that's the general rule).

You'll also find that a Harvard or Stanford MBA will get paid more than an MBA that attended a lesser school. That's also true with JDs and EEs. An MIT grad is better paid than an EE from a Tier 2 or 3 school. That is reflective of the market supply / demand. How does that compare with nursing? Is an ASN RN from a better school paid more? How about a BSN RN from a better school?

How about the teachers training and educating the very RNs we're talking about? At the BSN programs around here, the teachers (who are highly educated RNs) make less than if they worked as an RN.

Why shouldn't an RN teacher make more given their nursing experience and education?

That said, I'm curious to know exactly how these nursing unions compare to Jimmy Hoffa. Other than going on strike when their benefits are reduced.

Ah, a recent example. Here, Kaiser nurses who have a contract in place, went on strike to support Sutter nurses' pay negotiations. The Kaiser nurses benefits weren't being reduced, they weren't in contract negotiations, they are like Hoffa!

So are nurses knowledgable and skilled or are they not? And that brings me to another point. ASNs have exactly the same responsibility as BSNs (when employed in the same position)- why should they be paid any less for doing the exact same work?

That's an excellent question! Why should an EE with just a bachelors make less than an MSEE? Why should a business major (BBA) make less than an MBA? Why should a JD make less than an someone who has a master's in law?

They know less, that's why. Which raises the question, does an ASN know less than a BSN? After all, they take the same NCLEX, receive the same training (at least that's what the professors in the BSN program keep telling the students). They receive the same pay. So what exactly is the difference?

Someone with an associates in engineering certainly does not have the same education as bachelor level.

While on the topic, I have the 8th Ed. Med-Surg Nursing by Lewis et. al., 7th Ed. Clinical Nursing Skills & Techniques by Perry & Potter, 7th Ed. Fundamentals of Nursing, ATI's series - RN Adult Med Surg Nursing 8th Ed., and about 15 other RN books including NCLEX (as I may have mentioned previously, I like to read ahead 😉 ) and I've yet to come across any content that I would consider "difficult" though that's a relative term. Unlike engineering, physics, calculus, and other classes that many consider more difficult.

It's no wonder kids today avoid the STEM disciplines. Why bother even getting a bachelor or a masters in most other disciplines when an ASN alone will make you more bank?

I'm not going to comment on the wages issue, because I've never seen the sort of money people are tossing around, nor will I. Do I think I deserve more? Sure. Will I get it? Nope.

Fab, you're in the wrong place! Come to CA (stay away from the major cities - L.A. & S.F.) and you too could see more pay for less work (whatever you do avoid NYC).

I've run into many former teachers now in healthcare.

And around here you'll run into former MBAs, JDs, EEs, etc. all now in healthcare and loving the lifestyle! Can't wait for that first 4 day weekend as a "regular workweek" 🙂

 

[fab4fan]

Thanks all the same, FireCloud, but prefer to take advice from my nursing peers. But "Yay you!' for studying ahead and thinking you've got this profession knocked. It's possible you'll find that it's a lot more difficult to put that book learning into practice and be able to handle the stressors day after day

Reading your posts does provide light entertainment. I thank you for that.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Why shouldn't an RN teacher make more given their nursing experience and education?

They can't bill at the same level an a fresh out of school RN. Academia rarely pays better. I don't think it is fair...but that is how it works at 95% of places.

 

[PrinceVersed]

Firecloud,

I just have a couple points I would like to address. I did not read all of your links nor can I talk about Cali nursing but I can tell you how my experience has differed a bit from what you said.

Nurse to patient ratio. Says its supposed to be one thing, is actually something else. I worked in a CVICU and it was supposed to be 2pt:1 nurse, max. I would say a bit over half the time that was the case. The other times I would have to take 3 or sometimes even 4 pts. You might think whats one more pt... you will find out. Or I would have to take an immediate post op CABG/Valve/IABP pt and a crazy suicide pt in 4 point restraints (which is supposed to be a 1:1). Both requiring q15min charting.

Where I worked a BSN does make more than ADN and a 5 year experienced nurse would get hired on at a higher rate. I do agree that it is dumb for both BSN and ADN to take the same boards.

As for the difficulty of the material. I have never gone to med school but I have read a ton of post on here and talk to a lot of med students personally. What I have been told is that the difficulty of the information is not high but the volume of information is. So I am not shocked that you wouldn't find your nursing level material all that difficult when med students say, often on this board, that it isn't that much of a brain buster.

In closing, I found staff nursing to be a soul sucking experience in which I would not do for another day even if they offered me 7 figures. That being said... In a lot of instances the nurse has control over whether or not a person lives, dies, or is permanently injured. That might be why they get paid more than a MBA. Most people would rather pay more money to have their life safeguarded than to a middle level manager or HR in a corporation.

 

[The right Path]

Please, share. What exactly is the "misguided musing"? 🙄 I believe the "data" is in reference to this post:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12096485&postcount=278

Perhaps my understanding is incorrect. Enlighten me. I'm all ears. 😉

Future nursing administrator! Thanks for the promotion, but let me finish my classes first. 😀

I feel extremely well-suited to do what any CA RN does. 😉 A NYC RN? Hmm, perhaps not as well suited.

Nursing is expedient (2yr degree). You don't even need a bachelors, and it's more financially secure than an MBA, J.D., or EE. Not only that, the hours, OT (which doesn't exist in any of those professions), and lack of business travel make it a much sweeter deal.

Compared to nursing, I don't consider my job loss a failure, I consider having not discovered and entered the nursing profession earlier the failure. Where else can you have a protected job, no travel, and make six figures with just an Associate Degree?

By the way, all I hear out of those attending nursing school right now, is how much they all talk about the money aspect (I'm told a certain Northern California hospital is now paying $76 an hour)

Lets review shall we?

Consider this, 1st year nurses in Northern CA make $100k+. That's an RN with an ASN (2yr degree) or BSN (4yr degree).

Compare to the World's Top MBA programs: http://officialmbaguide.org/top40.php?rnk=salary [4yr college + 2yr MBA]

Compare to starting salaries for Engineers: http://www.eng.lsu.edu/news/2009/7/e...ational-survey and http://www.payscale.com/best-college...g-colleges.asp [4yrs college though usually takes 5-6 to complete]

Compare to starting salaries for Lawyers: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_b...al-jurist.html [4yrs college + 3yrs JD]

It's no wonder the ABSN program around here have a pipeline of MBAs, lawyers and engineers! Lets see, a 2yr associates at a community college or 5-8 years of college and grad school... hmm, tough choice.

Top that off with patient to nurse ratio (I love it!!!) I'm sure many MBAs, JDs and EEs wish they had a ratio or OT or no travel or even a 3-4 day workweek!

"In 1999, they persuaded the state Legislature to pass a first-in-the-nation law setting nurse-to-patient ratios: the maximum number of patients assigned to a licensed nurse at any one time.

The staffing ratios, implemented in 2004, range from one nurse for every patient in a trauma unit, to one nurse for every four patients in a specialty-care unit."

"It's a huge cost for hospitals," Spetz said, estimating about one-sixth of a hospital's total budget goes toward compensation of registered nurses, licensed vocational nurses and nurses aides.

Highest nursing pay in U.S.

For many CNA members, there's a more potent measure of the union's success: Nursing pay, already higher in California than anywhere else, is rising fast.

The average salary for a California registered nurse grew from $57,855 in 2001 to $88,714 in 2011, according to the state Employment Development Department. Adjusted for inflation, that represents a 21 percent pay hike, compared with an 8 percent pay bump for other California workers during that span.

At the current pace, the average salary for a California registered nurse will eclipse six figures in three years.

The arguments, the walkouts, the pay increases – all are likely to continue as long as demand for nurses remains strong. In 2010, as the state buckled under 12 percent unemployment, the jobless rate among nurses was 1.8 percent, census figures show.

"We're still seeing demand," said Terri Carpenter, the agency's spokeswoman. "But we can only train so many a year. There's only so much space at the colleges."

• Do Northern California nurses not have the highest nursing pay in the U.S.?
• Are those average salary figures not correct?
• Is the nurse unemployment rate wrong?

If so, feel free to contact the newspaper that did the fact checking and published the article from which I cut/pasted.






We're not talking about the exception to the rule. When hospitals hire new RNs, do they not get paid the same or does a BSN make more than an ASN? And if an RN has 5 yrs experience, do they not get paid comparably to an RN that has 5yrs of experience? As I understand it, it's not a pay for performance model.





That's the point though. An RN with an ASN does make that kind of money. They make the same. Unlike MBAs, JDs, EEs and countless other professions where new grads (usually with a 4yr Bachelor and professional degree) do not get paid the same as their peers, and certainly do not get paid the same as their more educated peers even though they may be doing the same job (there are exceptions, but that's the general rule).

You'll also find that a Harvard or Stanford MBA will get paid more than an MBA that attended a lesser school. That's also true with JDs and EEs. An MIT grad is better paid than an EE from a Tier 2 or 3 school. That is reflective of the market supply / demand. How does that compare with nursing? Is an ASN RN from a better school paid more? How about a BSN RN from a better school?

How about the teachers training and educating the very RNs we're talking about? At the BSN programs around here, the teachers (who are highly educated RNs) make less than if they worked as an RN.

Why shouldn't an RN teacher make more given their nursing experience and education?





That's an excellent question! Why should an EE with just a bachelors make less than an MSEE? Why should a business major (BBA) make less than an MBA? Why should a JD make less than an someone who has a master's in law?

They know less, that's why. Which raises the question, does an ASN know less than a BSN? After all, they take the same NCLEX, receive the same training (at least that's what the professors in the BSN program keep telling the students). They receive the same pay. So what exactly is the difference?

Someone with an associates in engineering certainly does not have the same education as bachelor level.

While on the topic, I have the 8th Ed. Med-Surg Nursing by Lewis et. al., 7th Ed. Clinical Nursing Skills & Techniques by Perry & Potter, 7th Ed. Fundamentals of Nursing, ATI's series - RN Adult Med Surg Nursing 8th Ed., and about 15 other RN books including NCLEX (as I may have mentioned previously, I like to read ahead 😉 ) and I've yet to come across any content that I would consider "difficult" though that's a relative term. Unlike engineering, physics, calculus, and other classes that many consider more difficult.

It's no wonder kids today avoid the STEM disciplines. Why bother even getting a bachelor or a masters in most other disciplines when an ASN alone will make you more bank?






Fab, you're in the wrong place! Come to CA (stay away from the major cities - L.A. & S.F.) and you too could see more pay for less work (whatever you do avoid NYC).



And around here you'll run into former MBAs, JDs, EEs, etc. all now in healthcare and loving the lifestyle! Can't wait for that first 4 day weekend as a "regular workweek" 🙂

Good God.

TL;DR- only skimmed.

I'm not referring to your gazillion links referencing nursing salaries as your misguided musings. It's your insistence that nursing is an overpaid, easy breezy job that any robot could do. I can't wait 'til you can really put your money where your mouth is.

I'd seriosly consider picking up a couple of extra shifts at whatever Shady Shoals Nursing Home hires you as a new grad to see for myself how things are working out for you.

And don't take my prediction for your future in management as a compliment. It's more of a Dillbert Principle thing.

 

[blahoslovennyy]

I think that one of the firecloud's misconceptions is that an ADN prepared nurse will have the capacity to make anything near "average" regional salary figures. The salary information provided by sites such as "Advance for Nurses: State of Nursing Salaries, [1, 2]" or the Bureau of Labor Statistics [3], gives figures with out considering education or position within employing institutions. When I started out of school I had the same misconceptions, such as believing that I would be earning at the 50th percentile as a new grad with an two-year degree, not understanding that salary data from those with ADN, BSN, MSN, MBA, DNP, CNS, etc. degrees were also included when calculating salary ranges. Today, I've since earned my BSN, and have been working as a clinical nurse for six years. I still make 25% less than the national mean hourly wage.

1) http://nursing.advanceweb.com/Salary-Information/Salary-Survey/Nurses-Nation.aspx
2) http://nursing.advanceweb.com/Features/Articles/State-of-Nursing-Salaries-2011.aspx
3) http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291111.htm