Overwhelming changes - COVID times

[Mopsd]

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It appears that the new "norm," in lieu of clinical volunteering, will be to gain clinical employment due to limited opportunities for volunteering.

The average employer (Nurse Assisting) in my area wants at least 20 hours a week with mandatory overtime when needed. Seems this is expected all while juggling a full-time course load (and maintaining grades) and studying for the MCAT (earlier and part-time, over a longer period, due to limited time).

Is this the new pre-med lifestyle? Anyone else feel overwhelmed about these changes? I know some pre-PAs work such hours during undergrad, but at least they don't need to prep for a 7.5 hour exam.

 

[Monkeymojo]

It took me a while to find a weekend shift job at a residential facility that was within an acceptable driving distance. But even then it is two 12hr shifts equating to 24hrs a week which can be quite stressful during finals. I would recommend staying away from any hospital-like setting and looking at longterm care facilities and residential facilities as they are more likely to have a weekend only team position as a nurse assistant or direct care staff member.

 

[penguinsfan71]

The pandemic will be over eventually, and things will slowly return to normal. If you can't find clinical experiences for your app right now, it might be in your best interest to take a gap year and wait until those volunteering experiences are back.

 

[Goro]

It appears that the new "norm," in lieu of clinical volunteering, will be to gain clinical employment due to limited opportunities for volunteering.

The average employer (Nurse Assisting) in my area wants at least 20 hours a week with mandatory overtime when needed. Seems this is expected all while juggling a full-time course load (and maintaining grades) and studying for the MCAT (earlier and part-time, over a longer period, due to limited time).

Is this the new pre-med lifestyle? Anyone else feel overwhelmed about these changes? I know some pre-PAs work such hours during undergrad, but at least they don't need to prep for a 7.5 hour exam.

I would surmise that the new pre-med normal is a lost year.

 

[KnightDoc]

I would surmise that the new pre-med normal is a lost year.

I am finding this to be my experience as well, and have what might be a stupid question -- you have previously advised that schools will not make allowances for candidates light on hours because they are inundated with applicants for whom that is not the case. How is this advice consistent with a lost year being the new normal?

My hope is that by the next cycle (2021-22) so many people will have been impacted by the "new normal" that adcom expectations will have to be reduced as a result. Am I kidding myself? Will there always be more than enough highly qualified superstars with a ton of awesome EC experiences that those of us part of the new normal will always be SOL?

 

[bahdahboom]

The pandemic will be over eventually, and things will slowly return to normal. If you can't find clinical experiences for your app right now, it might be in your best interest to take a gap year and wait until those volunteering experiences are back.

“Eventually”...when?? Do you know how viruses work?

 

[penguinsfan71]

“Eventually”...when?? Do you know how viruses work?

Do you think that the pandemic isn't going to end...?

 

[Rogue42]

I am finding this to be my experience as well, and have what might be a stupid question -- you have previously advised that schools will not make allowances for candidates light on hours because they are inundated with applicants for whom that is not the case. How is this advice consistent with a lost year being the new normal?

My hope is that by the next cycle (2021-22) so many people will have been impacted by the "new normal" that adcom expectations will have to be reduced as a result. Am I kidding myself? Will there always be more than enough highly qualified superstars with a ton of awesome EC experiences that those of us part of the new normal will always be SOL?

Medical schools aren't going to lower their standards, ever. I don't know what "highly qualified superstars with a ton of awesome EC experiences" mean, because the medical school normal standard NOW and even before now was that. The standard is to be exceptional, anything less than that is not going to get you in.

People work their tails off for four years to get the experiences, volunteering, MCAT score, GPA, etc., to even have the opportunity to apply. 5 months isn't going to make or break MOST people's applications.

Pony up, its time for you to get to work.

 

[KnightDoc]

Medical schools aren't going to lower their standards, ever. I don't know what "highly qualified superstars with a ton of awesome EC experiences" mean, because the medical school normal standard NOW and even before now was that. The standard is to be exceptional, anything less than that is not going to get you in.

People work their tails off for four years to get the experiences, volunteering, MCAT score, GPA, etc., to even have the opportunity to apply. 5 months isn't going to make or break MOST people's applications.

Pony up, its time for you to get to work.

Yes, 5 months has already passed. What happens in another 6 months? Or 6 months after that? Will schools really dip deeper into the reapplicant pool in order to avoid "lowering their standards" with respect to people who have not had the opportunity to work their tails off on ECs since March 2020?

This is what I'm asking. Agreed -- 5 months at this point means nothing, because plenty of people had tons of hours before March. That number will be significantly reduced next year, as 20,000 very attractive candidates begin school next summer. Who is going to have four year's worth of experiences next year, besides reapplicants from this year? Plus, when is this going to end? October? Next spring? Next October? 2022?

And once it does end, what happens with the lost year (plus?)? Do we cancel the entering class of 2022 in order to allow everyone to gather the hours they are not gathering now, or do schools "lower their standards" to conform to the reality that the applicants in the 2021-22 cycle simply will not have had many opportunities from March 2020 until whenever to collect experiences??????

I've been shut down since March and would love to pony up. Where? I can't even get live classes now, let alone research, clinical, etc. In another thread, someone asked about the Peace Corps, and was told it was worth mentioning because it is an accomplishment to have been accepted. Great!! It's still zero hours since it is shut down!!!!! Is everyone really going to receive credit for all of their plans that have been canceled? If so, then I guess I'm in great shape and have nothing to worry about! 🙂

 

[Rogue42]

Yes, 5 months has already passed. What happens in another 6 months? Or 6 months after that? Will schools really dip deeper into the reapplicant pool in order to avoid "lowering their standards" with respect to people who have not had the opportunity to work their tails off on ECs since March 2020?

This is what I'm asking. Agreed -- 5 months at this point means nothing, because plenty of people had tons of hours before March. That number will be significantly reduced next year, as 20,000 very attractive candidates begin school next summer. Who is going to have four year's worth of experiences next year, besides reapplicants from this year? Plus, when is this going to end? October? Next spring? Next October? 2022?

And once it does end, what happens with the lost year (plus?)? Do we cancel the entering class of 2022 in order to allow everyone to gather the hours they are not gathering now, or do schools "lower their standards" to conform to the reality that the applicants in the 2021-22 cycle simply will not have had many opportunities from March 2020 until whenever to collect experiences??????

I've been shut down since March and would love to pony up. Where? I can't even get live classes now, let alone research, clinical, etc. In another thread, someone asked about the Peace Corps, and was told it was worth mentioning because it is an accomplishment to have been accepted. Great!! It's still zero hours since it is shut down!!!!! Is everyone really going to receive credit for all of their plans that have been canceled? If so, then I guess I'm in great shape and have nothing to worry about! 🙂

Medical schools this cycle have plenty of well-qualified applicants with plenty of hours. If someone is a reapplicant next year, then it is NOT due to the recent lockdown.

Next year, when candidates apply, they will still have been working their tails off for @ minimum 3 years. There is A LOT of hours there. More than what's needed to prove a point. But remember, there are also non-trads that will have been working for way more than 3 years to be qualified to apply.

Again, medical schools will not lower their standards, I can guarantee it. They're not going to have to. The pool is already over-saturated with qualified people.

If quarantine truly goes on for 2 years, okay then MAYBE they will have to re-evaluate. But I would speculate that is simply not going to happen. Further, there are volunteer opportunities, there are job opportunities, research still has to be conducted, and cogs in the wheels still have to turn.

There is no "new" normal, this whole thing is abnormal. It will go away. Until then, you have to find even the smallest of things to better your application because hoping schools will lower their standards isn't going to happen, and playing the "I don't have hours because COVID card" will not look good, look like whiner, doesn't know how to perserve through adversity, and probably a lot like other peoples applications that aren't good enough.

This may sound mean and all, but it true.

 

[YoungDrummer]

How about working/volunteering for the suicide and crisis
hotlines or volunteering for hospice?

 

[Mopsd]

Medical schools this cycle have plenty of well-qualified applicants with plenty of hours. If someone is a reapplicant next year, then it is NOT due to the recent lockdown.

Next year, when candidates apply, they will still have been working their tails off for @ minimum 3 years. There is A LOT of hours there. More than what's needed to prove a point. But remember, there are also non-trads that will have been working for way more than 3 years to be qualified to apply.

Again, medical schools will not lower their standards, I can guarantee it. They're not going to have to. The pool is already over-saturated with qualified people.

If quarantine truly goes on for 2 years, okay then MAYBE they will have to re-evaluate. But I would speculate that is simply not going to happen. Further, there are volunteer opportunities, there are job opportunities, research still has to be conducted, and cogs in the wheels still have to turn.

There is no "new" normal, this whole thing is abnormal. It will go away. Until then, you have to find even the smallest of things to better your application because hoping schools will lower their standards isn't going to happen, and playing the "I don't have hours because COVID card" will not look good, look like whiner, doesn't know how to perserve through adversity, and probably a lot like other peoples applications that aren't good enough.

This may sound mean and all, but it true.

I agree that the limited EC hours shouldn't have an effect on this cycle's applicants too much, but disagree with the assessment about future cycles and your blanket statements.

These past five months (and counting) have had an enormous and lasting impact for years to come. I believe there will be some form of adaptation to this by med schools, or they risk a lack of diversity in future matriculating classes - if this is important to them. I believe failing to adapt will cut out a lot of disadvantaged folks who are struggling the most right now. But, who knows, I am just a pre-med student.

Many med schools have already 'lowered their standards' to all by allowing P/F grading and online classes. It's hard to believe they won't extend 'lower standards' to other parts of the app - including ECs for those applying in a couple of years - especially if the current climate continues as is. I predict that "lower standards" will be in the form of accepting less-traditional forms of ECs and finding a balance in hours.

With regard to gaining experiences, a response of "suck it up" doesn't really help. I wish med schools would step up and give guidance right now. For many, it's not as simple as getting out there and proceeding as if life is normal. Not sure where you're from, but many parts of the country are in the midst of talking about a second shutdown. With many businesses not doing well despite reopening, finances are a concern for many. My local government can't decide what to do about schools K - 12 and colleges with the start of the semester a few weeks away. Many college students forced to live at home with elderly parents have to be careful about possible transmission if they are to participate in in-person clinical activities. Etc, etc..., the list goes on. You can call us a bunch of whiners, but these are unprecedented times that can't be dismissed. You had it easier than many of us currently going through the cycle.

 

[Rogue42]

I agree that the limited EC hours shouldn't have an effect on this cycle's applicants too much, but disagree with the assessment about future cycles and your blanket statements.

These past five months (and counting) have had an enormous and lasting impact for years to come. I believe there will be some form of adaptation to this by med schools, or they risk a lack of diversity in future matriculating classes - if this is important to them. I believe failing to adapt will cut out a lot of disadvantaged folks who are struggling the most right now. But, who knows, I am just a pre-med student.

Many med schools have already 'lowered their standards' to all by allowing P/F grading and online classes. It's hard to believe they won't extend 'lower standards' to other parts of the app - including ECs for those applying in a couple of years - especially if the current climate continues as is. I predict that "lower standards" will be in the form of accepting less-traditional forms of ECs and finding a balance in hours.

With regard to gaining experiences, a response of "suck it up" doesn't really help. I wish med schools would step up and give guidance right now. For many, it's not as simple as getting out there and proceeding as if life is normal. Not sure where you're from, but many parts of the country are in the midst of talking about a second shutdown. With many businesses not doing well despite reopening, finances are a concern for many. My local government can't decide what to do about schools K - 12 and colleges with the start of the semester a few weeks away. Many college students forced to live at home with elderly parents have to be careful about possible transmission if they are to participate in in-person clinical activities. Etc, etc..., the list goes on. You can call us a bunch of whiners, but these are unprecedented times that can't be dismissed. You had it easier than many of us currently going through the cycle.

I am sorry, but the notion that "I had it easier" is absolutely wrong. That is the lighthouse signal that everyone who applies after another person wants to say. "You had it easier cause GPA averages weren't as high," "You had it easier cause MCAT averages weren't as high," "You had it easier because a bachelors degree wasn't required." At the end of the day, I competed with the best of the best and got in under the circumstances I was given - and you don't even know what those circumstances were for me. Further, I am not calling you on anyone else a "whiner," but if you go into the application cycle thinking that you're going to get away with being subpar "because of COVID," then you will sound like a whiner, a complainer, non-perseverant, etc.

Med schools had no choice but to allow for online classes to count for this past semester. That wasn't really an option. Universities literally shut down for six weeks. But you still had to take the class. Ergo, you're still going to have to have the ECs to count for something. They're not just gonna swipe that under the rug. They are going to want to see ECs enough to know that you REALLY want to be a physician, you have empathy, compassion, perseverant, affable, etc.

Further, I seriously DOUBT that this current climate of activities will go on for years. Period. It simply isn't going to happen, and once it is over, medical schools will expect applicants to be on par or better than previous classes. Period. They're not going to lower the standard because lowering the standard allows less quality applicants to be accepted, and it will not happen.

Now, you're right, they may accept less traditional forms of ECs (don't know what this means exactly as all ECs are acceptable anyways), but at the end of the day, regardless of what you think or people going through the cycle think, medical schools are not going to lower the bar. There is always a way to be better. Study for the MCAT during this time. Do online tutoring for classes that are online. DO SOMETHING. Simple doing nothing, because "well COVID doesn't allow me any opportunities," isn't going to cut it. And i'll tell you why. Because there are people who are going to apply with you and your application cycle constituents, who ARE doing something.

Don't sit round and let fate pass you by when you could be doing ANYTHING else except for complaining. Don't get me wrong, I understand the predicament. I understand it is hard. I understand everything that is going on. But I also know that for every moment you aren't trying to get better, someone else is. Don't sit around and HOPE medical schools lower standards - great if they do! But if they don't, and you hoped they would, then you will not make the cut.

 

[candbgirl]

I am so glad this thread was started. I have spent the last 5 months marveling at current applicants wondering if schools will give them a big pass because”COVID happened”! I’ve so wanted to say COVID happened in March. You apply the beginning of June. Covid has not one thing to do with this cycle, yet there are applicants that think it does or should! There isn’t anyone that can predict what will happen moving forward but I doubt schools will slacken up excessively on expectations. Why should they? Applicants will still apply with a wide range of activities that the student has found and done despite COVID. Physicians have to think outside the box everyday. This whole pandemic has provided all of us an opportunity to do just that in every aspect of our lives.

 

[eigen]

I can't see medical schools suddenly not having enough qualified applicants. A lot of the assumptions about a sudden drop off in "quality" seem to be based around a very stereotypical applicant that is (a) applying in the senior year with no gap years, and (b) has most of their EC experience at the end of college, rather than spaced throughout.

While clinical volunteering opportunities are lower, the need for clinical workers many places in the US is at an all time high. What I'm seeing is that people without certifications to work in a medical setting (CNA, EMT, Med Tech, even scribes) are having issues getting hours. On the other hand, students who have put time into getting the certifications needed for clinical employment are getting a surplus of hours, and will have more entering application season next year than they would under other circumstances.

This doesn't even touch on the people that had already graduated and were working in a healthcare setting for a gap year (or two, or three) who are getting clinical experience, or the non-traditional students who are working in other areas in healthcare and considering a change.

 

[Mopsd]

I am sorry, but the notion that "I had it easier" is absolutely wrong. That is the lighthouse signal that everyone who applies after another person wants to say. "You had it easier cause GPA averages weren't as high," "You had it easier cause MCAT averages weren't as high," "You had it easier because a bachelors degree wasn't required." At the end of the day, I competed with the best of the best and got in under the circumstances I was given - and you don't even know what those circumstances were for me. Further, I am not calling you on anyone else a "whiner," but if you go into the application cycle thinking that you're going to get away with being subpar "because of COVID," then you will sound like a whiner, a complainer, non-perseverant, etc.

The “excuses” you point out above have nothing to do with the pandemic. Apples to oranges. My original point is that issues will extend way beyond academics and stats. There are issues socially and economically as a result of the pandemic which make it harder for folks to get the experience they need. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the pre-existing stratification before the pandemic – which was subsequently expanded by pandemic. I provided a list of examples above that everyday people struggle with even more during these times. If you can’t relate to these, maybe you had a nice upbringing? Maybe you weren’t affected by the pandemic? Good for you.

Another example I failed to mention that may fall under “lowering standards” (or to say it nicer - accommodating) while at the same time showing economic impact – community colleges. With financial issues being a concern for many, I wonder if those choosing to attend their local cc (instead of their original institution) this fall due to circumstances uprooted by the pandemic will face the same prejudice as those in previous cycles. I wonder if med schools that were not open to CC classes will be more open to them now (at least to some extent)…

Med schools had no choice but to allow for online classes to count for this past semester. That wasn't really an option. Universities literally shut down for six weeks. But you still had to take the class. Ergo, you're still going to have to have the ECs to count for something. They're not just gonna swipe that under the rug. They are going to want to see ECs enough to know that you REALLY want to be a physician, you have empathy, compassion, perseverant, affable, etc.

You fail to point out that many schools have also decided to stay online this fall. The effects of the pandemic did not stop at these first five months. Many of these same med schools have already openly stated acceptance of online prereqs taken this fall, until further notice.

Further, I seriously DOUBT that this current climate of activities will go on for years. Period. It simply isn't going to happen, and once it is over, medical schools will expect applicants to be on par or better than previous classes. Period. They're not going to lower the standard because lowering the standard allows less quality applicants to be accepted, and it will not happen.

Now, you're right, they may accept less traditional forms of ECs (don't know what this means exactly as all ECs are acceptable anyways), but at the end of the day, regardless of what you think or people going through the cycle think, medical schools are not going to lower the bar. There is always a way to be better. Study for the MCAT during this time. Do online tutoring for classes that are online. DO SOMETHING. Simple doing nothing, because "well COVID doesn't allow me any opportunities," isn't going to cut it. And i'll tell you why. Because there are people who are going to apply with you and your application cycle constituents, who ARE doing something.

If you’re referring to the limited ECs, and the lack of clinical volunteering specifically, I agree that it won’t last for years.

With regard to less traditional forms of ECs, I am talking about stuff we’re seeing now - virtual forms of non-clinical volunteering/ community service, shadowing and clinical experience (scribing, crisis hotlines). If you look back at previous posts, some adcom members did not look favorably on these. My longstanding understanding is that med schools want in-person interaction, as traditional medicine has always been delivered. This understanding led me to the conclusion that med schools who will now begin "accepting" (as legit standalone forms of experiences) these virtual forms of volunteering is, in fact, lowering the standards they had pre-pandemic.

Don't sit round and let fate pass you by when you could be doing ANYTHING else except for complaining. Don't get me wrong, I understand the predicament. I understand it is hard. I understand everything that is going on. But I also know that for every moment you aren't trying to get better, someone else is. Don't sit around and HOPE medical schools lower standards - great if they do! But if they don't, and you hoped they would, then you will not make the cut.

I think many of us are doing something. However, I posted this thread to get a feel for what adcoms are expecting of us going forward (see OP). The uncertainty and lack of guidance is extremely unnerving. The lack of confirmation from med schools and non-traditional advice being spread around the WWW right now has me to believe that impacts are and will be taken into consideration.

 

[Rogue42]

The “excuses” you point out above have nothing to do with the pandemic. Apples to oranges. My original point is that issues will extend way beyond academics and stats. There are issues socially and economically as a result of the pandemic which make it harder for folks to get the experience they need. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the pre-existing stratification before the pandemic – which was subsequently expanded by pandemic. I provided a list of examples above that everyday people struggle with even more during these times. If you can’t relate to these, maybe you had a nice upbringing? Maybe you weren’t affected by the pandemic? Good for you.

Another example I failed to mention that may fall under “lowering standards” (or to say it nicer - accommodating) while at the same time showing economic impact – community colleges. With financial issues being a concern for many, I wonder if those choosing to attend their local cc (instead of their original institution) this fall due to circumstances uprooted by the pandemic will face the same prejudice as those in previous cycles. I wonder if med schools that were not open to CC classes will be more open to them now (at least to some extent)…



You fail to point out that many schools have also decided to stay online this fall. The effects of the pandemic did not stop at these first five months. Many of these same med schools have already openly stated acceptance of online prereqs taken this fall, until further notice.



If you’re referring to the limited ECs, and the lack of clinical volunteering specifically, I agree that it won’t last for years.

With regard to less traditional forms of ECs, I am talking about stuff we’re seeing now - virtual forms of non-clinical volunteering/ community service, shadowing and clinical experience (scribing, crisis hotlines). If you look back at previous posts, some adcom members did not look favorably on these. My longstanding understanding is that med schools want in-person interaction, as traditional medicine has always been delivered. This understanding led me to the conclusion that med schools who will now begin "accepting" (as legit standalone forms of experiences) these virtual forms of volunteering is, in fact, lowering the standards they had pre-pandemic.



I think many of us are doing something. However, I posted this thread to get a feel for what adcoms are expecting of us going forward (see OP). The uncertainty and lack of guidance is extremely unnerving. The lack of confirmation from med schools and non-traditional advice being spread around the WWW right now has me to believe that impacts are and will be taken into consideration.

Look, man. Let me just be real clear for anyone reading this post.

I am a first-generation college graduate, from an inner-city, from a low-income family. I graduated college from a tech state school. I took community college credit hours. I worked 2 jobs in college for a total of 30-40 hours a week, had all kinds of ECs. Paid for college by working and with the scholarship I earned, took a gap year and got a masters degree while still working two jobs. BELIEVE ME. I understand the struggle. I understand the social and economic impact that this pandemic has on all walks of life - that is not lost on me. I understand the hurdles people will have had to jump through and the ones that they will have to jump through.

I think you and the person commenting to me before you really missed my point, so let me make it extremely, perfectly, precisely clear:

Excuses for under-par performance do not make it in Medicine. Control what you can control, and do not make excuses. (After all, excuses are kind of like buttholes, everyone has one). It doesn't matter what that excuse is; whether it is you not having a gpa high enough even though your gpa is higher than last years average (or MCAT), not having enough ECs because of COVID, or having a patient pass away due to a nurse giving the wrong drug that you ordered. All of those things are excuses that fall directly under your responsibility.

I do not care what is socially and economically happening; and neither do medical schools in regard to accepting applicants. An applicant is going to have to be up-to-standards to be accepted. Medicine is not going to regress due to COVID and neither is the applicant pool. You talk about how hard it is to get experience, but the fact it is - for every class before you, it has been HARD to get experience - especially pending one's background. You talk about experience, and let me assure you, it will still be needed. In-person patient care is still going to be highly, HIGHLY valuable. And there are ways to get it. Maybe not in some place in the country right now, but in others, yes. But if you aren't fortunate enough for that, then again, I have stated that 5 months, heck even 12 months without solid in-person patient care is not going to be a game-breaker; so long as, you have supplemented with MCAT studying that will help you get that higher score, aced your classes since you can't work, done online ECs. Done SOMETHING, because you can always explain that gap otherwise.

You posted this to see what adcoms want because everything is silent right? Well, let me help you. They're silent because the standard hasn't changed, and it probably won't. They are not going to accept applicants that do not meet that standard; of which, you seem like you have a fairly good idea of what that standard is. You think that the impacts will be taken into consideration, absolutely. They will be. I haven't argued that. But it will not be taken into consideration in a way that will allow you to be less than what is expected. It will be taken into consideration when one applicant is the same as the other, but that applicant 2 has showed that they worked through adversity - that they did SOMETHING (even if that something is online tutoring or scribing) during COVID, and then precisely explained why they couldn't add "xyz" to their application during that time. It is at that moment, that seat to medical school is given to applicant 2.

Goro commented and said the new normal is gap year, and it is true. It is true because the average age of matriculation is 24. For both maturity and to get the ECs needed to be at an acceptable standard. I think medical schools do understand the social and economic impact, but they also understand that lowering the expectations is a disservice to all those in the profession currently.

I am trying to help YOU. I am trying to help all pre-meds who read this to be prepared instead of hoping the standards get lowered. If you do not believe what I am stating, then I hope @Goro or some other adcom comes in here and discredits me or at least credits the thought.

PS: For you CC comment. Taking community college classes is 100% acceptable, so long as you don't go to university and then take all of your "hard science" pre-reqs at CCs. THAT is where the problem is. Also, good thing your fate is determined by many people instead of one adcom.

 

[Zorax]

Look, man. Let me just be real clear for anyone reading this post.

I am a first-generation college graduate, from an inner-city, from a low-income family. I graduated college from a tech state school. I took community college credit hours. I worked 2 jobs in college for a total of 30-40 hours a week, had all kinds of ECs. Paid for college by working and with the scholarship I earned, took a gap year and got a masters degree while still working two jobs. BELIEVE ME. I understand the struggle. I understand the social and economic impact that this pandemic has on all walks of life - that is not lost on me. I understand the hurdles people will have had to jump through and the ones that they will have to jump through.

I think you and the person commenting to me before you really missed my point, so let me make it extremely, perfectly, precisely clear:

Excuses for under-par performance do not make it in Medicine. Control what you can control, and do not make excuses. (After all, excuses are kind of like buttholes, everyone has one). It doesn't matter what that excuse is; whether it is you not having a gpa high enough even though your gpa is higher than last years average (or MCAT), not having enough ECs because of COVID, or having a patient pass away due to a nurse giving the wrong drug that you ordered. All of those things are excuses that fall directly under your responsibility.

I do not care what is socially and economically happening; and neither do medical schools in regard to accepting applicants. An applicant is going to have to be up-to-standards to be accepted. Medicine is not going to regress due to COVID and neither is the applicant pool. You talk about how hard it is to get experience, but the fact it is - for every class before you, it has been HARD to get experience - especially pending one's background. You talk about experience, and let me assure you, it will still be needed. In-person patient care is still going to be highly, HIGHLY valuable. And there are ways to get it. Maybe not in some place in the country right now, but in others, yes. But if you aren't fortunate enough for that, then again, I have stated that 5 months, heck even 12 months without solid in-person patient care is not going to be a game-breaker; so long as, you have supplemented with MCAT studying that will help you get that higher score, aced your classes since you can't work, done online ECs. Done SOMETHING, because you can always explain that gap otherwise.

You posted this to see what adcoms want because everything is silent right? Well, let me help you. They're silent because the standard hasn't changed, and it probably won't. They are not going to accept applicants that do not meet that standard; of which, you seem like you have a fairly good idea of what that standard is. You think that the impacts will be taken into consideration, absolutely. They will be. I haven't argued that. But it will not be taken into consideration in a way that will allow you to be less than what is expected. It will be taken into consideration when one applicant is the same as the other, but that applicant 2 has showed that they worked through adversity - that they did SOMETHING (even if that something is online tutoring or scribing) during COVID, and then precisely explained why they couldn't add "xyz" to their application during that time. It is at that moment, that seat to medical school is given to applicant 2.

Goro commented and said the new normal is gap year, and it is true. It is true because the average age of matriculation is 24. For both maturity and to get the ECs needed to be at an acceptable standard. I think medical schools do understand the social and economic impact, but they also understand that lowering the expectations is a disservice to all those in the profession currently.

I am trying to help YOU. I am trying to help all pre-meds who read this to be prepared instead of hoping the standards get lowered. If you do not believe what I am stating, then I hope @Goro or some other adcom comes in here and discredits me or at least credits the thought.

PS: For you CC comment. Taking community college classes is 100% acceptable, so long as you don't go to university and then take all of your "hard science" pre-reqs at CCs. THAT is where the problem is. Also, good thing your fate is determined by many people instead of one adcom.

Well said.

 

[eigen]

PS: For you CC comment. Taking community college classes is 100% acceptable, so long as you don't go to university and then take all of your "hard science" pre-reqs at CCs. THAT is where the problem is. Also, good thing your fate is determined by many people instead of one adcom.

Excellent post, but I just wanted to amplify this, for people reading.

Students working while taking courses at a CC prior to starting at a university isn't an issue. I have a number of successful students who have done this. It can be a great way to minimize debt, and some students also do it while working full time jobs in healthcare.

What is more of an issue (although not always) is students who take certain courses at a CC over the summer rather than taking those same courses at the university where they're enrolled. This is a different scenario. Still not always a problem (I've got students who do it to make their schedules work out) but you need to be sure that it doesn't look like you're trying to get "hard courses" out of the way where they might be less rigorous. The way to minimize any issue here is to rock the courses before/during/after that you took at the CC. If you take gen chem and biochem at a university and get poor grades and take OChem at a CC and get straight As, that is going to raise questions.

 

[Mopsd]

Look, man. Let me just be real clear for anyone reading this post.

I am a first-generation college graduate, from an inner-city, from a low-income family. I graduated college from a tech state school. I took community college credit hours. I worked 2 jobs in college for a total of 30-40 hours a week, had all kinds of ECs. Paid for college by working and with the scholarship I earned, took a gap year and got a masters degree while still working two jobs. BELIEVE ME. I understand the struggle. I understand the social and economic impact that this pandemic has on all walks of life - that is not lost on me. I understand the hurdles people will have had to jump through and the ones that they will have to jump through.

So how was your GPA and I think, more importantly MCAT after all those ECs? A previous thread of yours seems to claim you were aiming for a 500. What are my Chances / Chemistry Requirement help I assume this was your goal score because you did not have time to study for it with the number of ECs you needed to do to stand out. A 500 will barely be competitive today.

My original post sort of sought to seek clarification about this. With med schools (I assume) now EXPECTING clinical employment in lieu of clinical volunteering due to limited opportunities, do they understand that some other aspects of the application will lack? Or will they only admit one in a million rock stars going forward?

I think you and the person commenting to me before you really missed my point, so let me make it extremely, perfectly, precisely clear:

Excuses for under-par performance do not make it in Medicine. Control what you can control, and do not make excuses. (After all, excuses are kind of like buttholes, everyone has one). It doesn't matter what that excuse is; whether it is you not having a gpa high enough even though your gpa is higher than last years average (or MCAT), not having enough ECs because of COVID, or having a patient pass away due to a nurse giving the wrong drug that you ordered. All of those things are excuses that fall directly under your responsibility.

I think there is a difference between excuses and reasons. For those who have no to limited EC options right now, I am sure that many of them WANT to get out there and do something, but can’t due to the effects of the pandemic. This is no excuse, this is a reason. Many are affected by one common and legit reason.

I do not care what is socially and economically happening; and neither do medical schools in regard to accepting applicants. An applicant is going to have to be up-to-standards to be accepted. Medicine is not going to regress due to COVID and neither is the applicant pool. You talk about how hard it is to get experience, but the fact it is - for every class before you, it has been HARD to get experience - especially pending one's background. You talk about experience, and let me assure you, it will still be needed. In-person patient care is still going to be highly, HIGHLY valuable. And there are ways to get it. Maybe not in some place in the country right now, but in others, yes. But if you aren't fortunate enough for that, then again, I have stated that 5 months, heck even 12 months without solid in-person patient care is not going to be a game-breaker; so long as, you have supplemented with MCAT studying that will help you get that higher score, aced your classes since you can't work, done online ECs. Done SOMETHING, because you can always explain that gap otherwise.

Agree with most of what you said here. Disagree with a few things, you can’t compare to previous cycles. 1) Finding experiences pre-pandemic was a piece of cake for most. 2) For those that did struggle finding experiences, it is not hard to gain experiences now, it is hardER all because of one commonality that is affecting (almost) everyone. If med school admissions are truly holistic, as many claim to be, there will be some form of accommodation, as you have admitted.

You posted this to see what adcoms want because everything is silent right? Well, let me help you. They're silent because the standard hasn't changed, and it probably won't. They are not going to accept applicants that do not meet that standard; of which, you seem like you have a fairly good idea of what that standard is. You think that the impacts will be taken into consideration, absolutely. They will be. I haven't argued that. But it will not be taken into consideration in a way that will allow you to be less than what is expected. It will be taken into consideration when one applicant is the same as the other, but that applicant 2 has showed that they worked through adversity - that they did SOMETHING (even if that something is online tutoring or scribing) during COVID, and then precisely explained why they couldn't add "xyz" to their application during that time. It is at that moment, that seat to medical school is given to applicant 2.

With regard to the silence by adcoms, many of them have posted in the past few months. I think it’s not that the standard hasn’t changed – most have openly admitted they don’t know how things will pan out. Posted to see if anything changed and/or if their previous comments are really what they’re expecting going forward.

Goro commented and said the new normal is gap year, and it is true. It is true because the average age of matriculation is 24. For both maturity and to get the ECs needed to be at an acceptable standard. I think medical schools do understand the social and economic impact, but they also understand that lowering the expectations is a disservice to all those in the profession currently.

This admission supports the "new" normal claim you originally refuted. With increasing expectations, many don't have time (with other aspects of their life tacked on) for the scenario I posed in my OP. I rest my case.

I am trying to help YOU. I am trying to help all pre-meds who read this to be prepared instead of hoping the standards get lowered. If you do not believe what I am stating, then I hope @Goro or some other adcom comes in here and discredits me or at least credits the thought.

PS: For you CC comment. Taking community college classes is 100% acceptable, so long as you don't go to university and then take all of your "hard science" pre-reqs at CCs. THAT is where the problem is. Also, good thing your fate is determined by many people instead of one adcom.

As for cc classes, there are med schools that openly state they don’t like cc courses. I was referring specifically to these schools, not in general as you seem to point out.

 

[Ganon]

To the people trying to play the game of “who had it the toughest:”

I took a scored Step 1 during Covid. Checkmate😎

 

[Rogue42]

So how was your GPA and I think, more importantly MCAT after all those ECs? A previous thread of yours seems to claim you were aiming for a 500. What are my Chances / Chemistry Requirement help I assume this was your goal score because you did not have time to study for it with the number of ECs you needed to do to stand out. A 500 will barely be competitive today.

My original post sort of sought to seek clarification about this. With med schools (I assume) now EXPECTING clinical employment in lieu of clinical volunteering due to limited opportunities, do they understand that some other aspects of the application will lack? Or will they only admit one in a million rock stars going forward?



I think there is a difference between excuses and reasons. For those who have no to limited EC options right now, I am sure that many of them WANT to get out there and do something, but can’t due to the effects of the pandemic. This is no excuse, this is a reason. Many are affected by one common and legit reason.



Agree with most of what you said here. Disagree with a few things, you can’t compare to previous cycles. 1) Finding experiences pre-pandemic was a piece of cake for most. 2) For those that did struggle finding experiences, it is not hard to gain experiences now, it is hardER all because of one commonality that is affecting (almost) everyone. If med school admissions are truly holistic, as many claim to be, there will be some form of accommodation, as you have admitted.



With regard to the silence by adcoms, many of them have posted in the past few months. I think it’s not that the standard hasn’t changed – most have openly admitted they don’t know how things will pan out. Posted to see if anything changed and/or if their previous comments are really what they’re expecting going forward.



This admission supports the "new" normal claim you originally refuted. With increasing expectations, many don't have time (with other aspects of their life tacked on) for the scenario I posed in my OP. I rest my case.



As for cc classes, there are med schools that openly state they don’t like cc courses. I was referring specifically to these schools, not in general as you seem to point out.

Your current problem is that you assume too much and come to conclusions that are simply wrong; then follow it up with not wanting to face the facts given to you.

Look, you can go dig up anything of mine you want. It doesn't change anything. You want to know how I did on my MCAT and how much I studied? Sure, bro. I studied maybe a day, and guess what, that is because I was too stupid to realize how much I needed to study for that exam. It was not due to a lack of time. You know what happened next? My score reflected that. But you want to know who OWNED that mistake every single time I was questioned about it? Me.

Goro didn't say that the new normal is a gap year because of COVID. He said it because it IS the normal. The average age of matriculation is 24, and the average age of people graduating from undergrad is 22. You do the math. AKA, gap years have become almost required to put together a competitive application with a mature person behind it.

You want so badly to be right that you have quoted me non-stop, but have yet to respond to @candbgirl or @eigen. Is it because they're faculty members? Or you just don't want to face their facts also?

Like I have stated continuously in this thread; medical schools' expectations are not going to change. They are going to require you to be exceptional. They are going to require you be up-to-standards. Medical schools' require almost nothing. They simply require an MCAT score, certain pre-reqs (which some schools have dropped completely), and a bachelors degree. All of the rest of your application is up to you. The only thing medical schools' truly expect out of you is maturity, impeccable character, empathy, compassion, perseverance, understanding, honesty, competence, humility, and all the other qualities that make a great physician - along with showing that you can survive the rigors of the curriculum through GPA and MCAT scores. You keep wanting to know what medical schools "expect," and luckily for you I literally just listed it for you. If you don't believe me, you can visit Harvard, Stanford, Perelman, Vanderbilt, Duke, or John Hopkins websites - because I just did, and they align with what I have been saying (even going so far as to say CC classes are acceptable).

So, how do medical school's determine those things? They determine them through what you do - what you have done. I have people in my class that never did a single patient-care experience, but they did a lot of things that showed they had compassion otherwise. You have to build an application that is competitive, subjectively. No 'x' amount of clinical hours, 'y' amount of volunteering, or 'z' amount of other activities is going to get you in, guaranteed. Especially if you lack the maturity and the attitude to be successful (not saying that you don't).

Truth is, you're right. No ADCOM knows how to answer you question though - because an acceptance is subjective. It is based on being holistic. You want accommodation? They will give you accommodation. They will accept all EC's - so long as you can prove you did them for the right reasons and no selfishly doing them. I promise, they always have anyways. But no "accommodation" that any medical school will give will be based on lowering the standards at all. Remember, I commented first to Knightdoc cause he/she was hoping the standards will be lowered, and I am here to tell you and anyone else, that that will NOT happen.

EDIT: Going just tag some adcoms in hopes they answer your question better than I can. @gyngyn @LizzyM @Angus Avagadro

 

[eigen]

My original post sort of sought to seek clarification about this. With med schools (I assume) now EXPECTING clinical employment in lieu of clinical volunteering due to limited opportunities, do they understand that some other aspects of the application will lack? Or will they only admit one in a million rock stars going forward?

I'm not sure how you think clinical employment necessarily causes other areas of the application to lack. That's only the case if you're trying to fit everything into the same time frame.

The most successful applicants I've seen have almost always taken a full year post-graduation for full time employment, usually clinical.

Yes, it's hard to cram everything you need to be a competitive applicant into 4 years. The people who do it are rock stars. Medical schools, however, don't have an expectation of how long you take to do something. What they do have is an expectation of what you will have done before applying.

 

[Mopsd]

Your current problem is that you assume too much and come to conclusions that are simply wrong; then follow it up with not wanting to face the facts given to you.

Look, you can go dig up anything of mine you want. It doesn't change anything. You want to know how I did on my MCAT and how much I studied? Sure, bro. I studied maybe a day, and guess what, that is because I was too stupid to realize how much I needed to study for that exam. It was not due to a lack of time. You know what happened next? My score reflected that. But you want to know who OWNED that mistake every single time I was questioned about it? Me.

Goro didn't say that the new normal is a gap year because of COVID. He said it because it IS the normal. The average age of matriculation is 24, and the average age of people graduating from undergrad is 22. You do the math. AKA, gap years have become almost required to put together a competitive application with a mature person behind it.

You want so badly to be right that you have quoted me non-stop, but have yet to respond to @candbgirl or @eigen. Is it because they're faculty members? Or you just don't want to face their facts also?

Like I have stated continuously in this thread; medical schools' expectations are not going to change. They are going to require you to be exceptional. They are going to require you be up-to-standards. Medical schools' require almost nothing. They simply require an MCAT score, certain pre-reqs (which some schools have dropped completely), and a bachelors degree. All of the rest of your application is up to you. The only thing medical schools' truly expect out of you is maturity, impeccable character, empathy, compassion, perseverance, understanding, honesty, competence, humility, and all the other qualities that make a great physician - along with showing that you can survive the rigors of the curriculum through GPA and MCAT scores. You keep wanting to know what medical schools "expect," and luckily for you I literally just listed it for you. If you don't believe me, you can visit Harvard, Stanford, Perelman, Vanderbilt, Duke, or John Hopkins websites - because I just did, and they align with what I have been saying (even going so far as to say CC classes are acceptable).

So, how do medical school's determine those things? They determine them through what you do - what you have done. I have people in my class that never did a single patient-care experience, but they did a lot of things that showed they had compassion otherwise. You have to build an application that is competitive, subjectively. No 'x' amount of clinical hours, 'y' amount of volunteering, or 'z' amount of other activities is going to get you in, guaranteed. Especially if you lack the maturity and the attitude to be successful (not saying that you don't).

Truth is, you're right. No ADCOM knows how to answer you question though - because an acceptance is subjective. It is based on being holistic. You want accommodation? They will give you accommodation. They will accept all EC's - so long as you can prove you did them for the right reasons and no selfishly doing them. I promise, they always have anyways. But no "accommodation" that any medical school will give will be based on lowering the standards at all. Remember, I commented first to Knightdoc cause he/she was hoping the standards will be lowered, and I am here to tell you and anyone else, that that will NOT happen.

EDIT: Going just tag some adcoms in hopes they answer your question better than I can. @gyngyn @LizzyM @Angus Avagadro

I am not your "bro," stop getting too worked up about this. You essentially did a complete 180 after I mentioned some of the ways med schools have lowered standards. I will refrain from responding any further.

 

[Rogue42]

I am not your "bro," stop getting too worked up about this. You essentially did a complete 180 after I mentioned some of the ways med schools have lowered standards. I will refrain from responding any further.

Oh, I figured we were “bro’s” since you decided to look up my posting history. Also, I never did a 180. My position has stayed exactly what it what: excuses will not work, you will need to be an exceptional candidate, they are not going to lower the standards.

Good day.

 

[Mopsd]

I'm not sure how you think clinical employment necessarily causes other areas of the application to lack. That's only the case if you're trying to fit everything into the same time frame.

The most successful applicants I've seen have almost always taken a full year post-graduation for full time employment, usually clinical.

Yes, it's hard to cram everything you need to be a competitive applicant into 4 years. The people who do it are rock stars. Medical schools, however, don't have an expectation of how long you take to do something. What they do have is an expectation of what you will have done before applying.

20+ hours of clinical employment per week (plus mandatory, as mentioned) vs 4 hours per week (on average) as a volunteer. Do the math. Yes, referring to fitting everything in 4 years.

 

[eigen]

20+ hours of clinical employment per week (plus mandatory, as mentioned) vs 4 hours per week (on average) as a volunteer. Do the math. Yes, referring to fitting everything in 4 years.

Then I think I've found the problem in your reasoning. The goal isn't to fit things into 4 years. Having a harder time fitting things into 4 years does not mean that there will suddenly be a lack of qualified candidates. Nor does it really disproportionately effect students from diverse backgrounds, many of who were already taking classes part time while working full time. I have students that work full time jobs in addition to classes (40+ hour weeks).

Working 20 hours a week + classes really isn't that outlandish. I'd say for students who aren't from privileged backgrounds, working 10-30 hours a week is actually pretty common. The difference is instead of working 25 hours a week at a non-healthcare job + volunteering in healthcare, you would be working 20+ hours a week at a health-care related job.

If you don't feel you're able to successfully work + do well in classes, then you focus on classes, then take a few gap years to gain clinical experience. This is the way things have pretty much always been.