P=MD is the biggest lie ever told

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
M

mglavin

Full Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
130
Reaction score
2
Its even bigger then the "don't worry about the details just understand the concept" lie told by professors

So for all you new M1s please before you adopt the P=MD mantra realize that...

What you they teach you in M1 and M2 is tested on Step I. A poor to average Step I score can close doors to competitive specialties. Even if your sure you want to go into something that isn't competitive, a higher score might get you the better residency program/location of your choice.

In case your new to science understand that learning is circular in the sense that you keep revisiting topics over and over again with more detail each time. What you learn in a textbook or lab the first two years comes back in a clinical form years 3 and 4. The more you learn now the easier it will be to learn later with the added details. So enjoy school but aim high to reach and exceed your potential.
Members don't see this ad.
 
good call. you gave me flashbacks on the whole, don't worry about the details, just the concepts thing. I'm glad I never believed the profs when they said that or my grades would have been far worse. Truth be told, if you just passed most med school classes you will probably be fine, but yes, a poor step 1 score definitely hamstrings you for sure, and they are somewhat correlated.
 
mglavin said:
Its even bigger then the "don't worry about the details just understand the concept" lie told by professors

So for all you new M1s please before you adopt the P=MD mantra realize that...

What you they teach you in M1 and M2 is tested on Step I. A poor to average Step I score can close doors to competitive specialties. Even if your sure you want to go into something that isn't competitive, a higher score might get you the better residency program/location of your choice.

In case your new to science understand that learning is circular in the sense that you keep revisiting topics over and over again with more detail each time. What you learn in a textbook or lab the first two years comes back in a clinical form years 3 and 4. The more you learn now the easier it will be to learn later with the added details. So enjoy school but aim high to reach and exceed your potential.
Click to expand...


If you don't mind, let's add English to the list of important classes as well.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Excelsius said:
If you don't mind, let's add English to the list of important classes as well.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I hate to nitpic, OP, but I had a heck of a time reading your post, even though I basically agree with it. Perhaps you shouldn't use contractions. esp "you are" = "you're, not your.

But yeah, you aren't done with this race just by getting into med school. Expect to have to do your best throughout.
 
I don't think the point of the statement is to say that all you have to do is pass and you can be a plastic surgeon. I've always taken it as giving people who aren't always the greatest in med school the confidence they sometimes need to get through the classes, even while taking a beating grade wise. Sure, you can't be in a competitive field, but you can still certainly be a doctor, which is not something many people can say.
 
While I agree, let's be realistic P does equal MD. The last person in the class will become an MD. They may only match into a FP residency program in an unheard of location, but they will still have the MD.
That's not to say that after a few years of experience and perhaps research, the person who graduated at the bottom of the class could do a prestegious fellowship.

Of course, if you're gung-ho for neuro sugery and have to be go straight through, b/c my gawd, taking a year off to have a life or get other experience is just grounds for ritual suicide, then yes, P = total failure.
 
No, it's not. If you misinterpret it to mean P = any specialty you want, as opposed to P=MD, then that's your fault. There will be plenty of people who can't get more than a pass in lots of classes, even with a maximal effort.
 
I think some of you guys are missing the point. There is a significant number of med students who have bought into the idea that passing is fine because other med students or teachers have taught them that. This is bad advice. It closes doors that you later wish you had open. Not everyone has the foresight or maturity that some of you may have. I know a few people like this, and they regret it. And they are neither dumb, nor ignorant, just believing of some of the baloney some people like to spread.

Same goes with those ridiculous college profs who say don't worry about the details, then test you on the details and you get hosed.
 
So, let's add a formula.

P = MD
H = neurosurgery, plastics, rads, ortho, derm, rad onc, and opthalmo.
 
So in the end... P, still does in fact, equal MD.

I'll bet there are neurosurgeons who "only" got P's in medical school. At least in the basic sciences.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
Actually, they dispelled that myth to us in orientation. P doesn not = MD, if you get >4 C's (of 7 classes 1st year) then you will be required to repeat the year.

But 3 of 7 is passing.
 
Mr Cookie Pants said:
Actually, they dispelled that myth to us in orientation. P doesn not = MD, if you get >4 C's (of 7 classes 1st year) then you will be required to repeat the year.

But 3 of 7 is passing.
Click to expand...

good point Mr. Cookie Pants. Or may i call you "Dr." Cookie Pants
 
You know, it is true that P=MD. And that to me is scary as hell. I mean if I look at the people on the bottom of my class, and it's pretty easy to see who they are when you have PBL, it scares me some of the concepts that they don't understand or some of the questions they ask. I go to a top 20 school, but still there is such huge gap between the brightest students and the not so bright students. The point is this, if I ended up in a hospital somewhere and one of these people walked in with a white coat... If you are in the bottom in medical school there is no miracle by which you are going to somehow become an average or above average doctor/clinician, right? So is it ethical or safe that people who just squeak by are allowed to go on and practice medicine with little to no remediation? Do you want people who took 2 or 3 attempts to pass the USMLE, while a difficult test not that difficult to pass, practicing medicine on your family?
 
Actually, my school is P/F throughout all 4 years. So for me and my classmates, P does in fact equal plastic surgeon, dermatologist, ENT, etc. :D

But in all seriousness, I agree with others when they say that the creed of P=MD is mainly meant to be used as a confidence boost for marginal students.
 
Law2Doc said:
Nah, you needn't honor anything to get most of those fields. It's more like:
P= MD,
P + high Step 1 + solid research + good away rotation/contacts = competitive specialty.
Click to expand...

agreed.
 
I disagree with the title of this thread. The biggest lie is the "The hardest part is getting in" thing they tell gullible premeds.
 
surebreC said:
I disagree with the title of this thread. The biggest lie is the "The hardest part is getting in" thing they tell gullible premeds.
Click to expand...

you disagree with that? i don't disagree with that. I would imagine there are at least 30-50% of the population of current med students (or more) who could get through med school capably who never got in in the first place. i really do think getting in is the hardest part.
 
I don't know about anyone else, but I always took the mantra that P=MD means that you will get an MD even if you got all Passes. I never thought it meant that I can get into any speciality. From those that I've spoken with, no one believes that just scrapping by will get you into derm or ENT.
 
radslooking said:
you disagree with that? i don't disagree with that. I would imagine there are at least 30-50% of the population of current med students (or more) who could get through med school capably who never got in in the first place. i really do think getting in is the hardest part.
Click to expand...

I didn't find getting in to be all that difficult. I played sports, went out regularly, slept a lot, complained when I had to study more than 3 hours in a day. Sure applying was a bit stressful but no where near as stressful as taking STEP I, trying to stay sane when studying an absurd amount during the first two years, getting pimped by an attending on a subject you probably should know more about than you do. Then if you want to do a semi-competitive residency in a desirable location (like Cali) you have even more to worry about.
 
dilatate said:
I mean if I look at the people on the bottom of my class, and it's pretty easy to see who they are when you have PBL, it scares me some of the concepts that they don't understand or some of the questions they ask.
Click to expand...

This reminded me of a guy in my class who used to ask the dumbest questions in PBL. Like those roll-your-eyes, is he for real type questions you're talking about. Never really got to know him until we were paired together surgery last year, and turns out he's bright as hell, probably going to match ortho, and did this simply to amuse himself because he hated PBL. During noon surg lecture he'd try to answer at least one question 'quinidine' simply because he liked the way it rolled off his tongue.
 
surebreC said:
I didn't find getting in to be all that difficult. I played sports, went out regularly, slept a lot, complained when I had to study more than 3 hours in a day. Sure applying was a bit stressful but no where near as stressful as taking STEP I, trying to stay sane when studying an absurd amount during the first two years, getting pimped by an attending on a subject you probably should know more about than you do. Then if you want to do a semi-competitive residency in a desirable location (like Cali) you have even more to worry about.
Click to expand...

well if you are trying to do the impossible, like get into Cali for residency, or do plastics, then maybe yes. but for the large majority of people, i'd say the hardest part is getting in.

I don't think the point is that people think derm and plastics are easy to get into. The problem is that they do the rotation, like it, and then can't undo the past and are stuck.
 
dilatate said:
You know, it is true that P=MD. And that to me is scary as hell. I mean if I look at the people on the bottom of my class, and it's pretty easy to see who they are when you have PBL, it scares me some of the concepts that they don't understand or some of the questions they ask. I go to a top 20 school, but still there is such huge gap between the brightest students and the not so bright students. The point is this, if I ended up in a hospital somewhere and one of these people walked in with a white coat... If you are in the bottom in medical school there is no miracle by which you are going to somehow become an average or above average doctor/clinician, right? So is it ethical or safe that people who just squeak by are allowed to go on and practice medicine with little to no remediation? Do you want people who took 2 or 3 attempts to pass the USMLE, while a difficult test not that difficult to pass, practicing medicine on your family?
Click to expand...

Briefly-Its not a "slam"dunk" that people in the lower half of the class will not at least be decent physicians.. And those in the upper half could have poor bedside manners, be an inept or untimely communicator, have a very sheltered middle class life, or just have a post nasal drip at an unexpected time.:rolleyes:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Even if you were interested in practicing Family Medicine in North Dakota, I would hope that you were learning as much as you could for the sake of being the best physician you can be...

P may equal MD, but I wouldn't want the people from the bottom 5% or so of my class treating me, my family, my friends...or anyone, anywhere, for that matter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Tic said:
This reminded me of a guy in my class who used to ask the dumbest questions in PBL. Like those roll-your-eyes, is he for real type questions you're talking about. Never really got to know him until we were paired together surgery last year, and turns out he's bright as hell, probably going to match ortho, and did this simply to amuse himself because he hated PBL. During noon surg lecture he'd try to answer at least one question 'quinidine' simply because he liked the way it rolled off his tongue.
Click to expand...

...that must have been obnoxious.
 
Here's how I see it...

If you study really hard and yet you get P's, I have utmost respect for you.

If you slack b/c you figured out just the right amount of studying to get you your 71, you're a douche bag and a half. Interestingly, these are usually the people sporting the P = MD rhetoric.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
DOCTORSAIB said:
Here's how I see it...

If you study really hard and yet you get P's, I have utmost respect for you.

If you slack b/c you figured out just the right amount of studying to get you your 71, you're a douche bag and a half. Interestingly, these are usually the people sporting the P = MD rhetoric.
Click to expand...

that sounds better. I know plenty of people that are working their butts off and plenty of slackers that scare the **** out of me...

I don't know their grades... but I'd prefer my friends and family to be seen by the first group.
 
Good Discussion Folks

I agree with the "formula" that was put up

Pass + High Step 1 + Good 3rd Year Clinical Rotations + Good Research + Good Connections = Sought Residency

What if hypothetically your class average was a 90/95....would you still not let the bottom 5% treat you, your family, etc? Do you even know what your physician's class rank is when you go see him/her??...I just think it is a douche bag thing to say...pretentious..."I would never let the bottom 5% doc treat my family" (however I don't even know my physicians class rank)

Another thing to realize is that there are many gunners that Honor everything, great good board scores, etc. and realize that they want to do FP or some other not so "illustrious" residency. (no offense to the FPs in here..much respect...just a stereotype).
 
radslooking said:
you disagree with that? i don't disagree with that. I would imagine there are at least 30-50% of the population of current med students (or more) who could get through med school capably who never got in in the first place. i really do think getting in is the hardest part.
Click to expand...
No, I don't believe it. College and the MCAT were much easier than med school and Step 1, no doubt. The fact that many people don't get in has no bearing on the difficulty, just the selectivity.
 
surebreC said:
I disagree with the title of this thread. The biggest lie is the "The hardest part is getting in" thing they tell gullible premeds.
Click to expand...

I guess it hard to quantitively say which is harder, and this will vary by person. At this point, I would be more willing to repeat first year than to have to reapply to medical school. Maybe I over stressed as an undergrad, but to me the application process started as a college freshman. Maybe it was because all the stories of how impossible it is to get in... so yes, my first year of med school was the least stressful year for me since high school!

While I have not taken step1 yet, I know many people who say its harder than the MCAT, but just as many who say they didn't think it was as bad as the MCAT, so I'll have to wait and see how I feel next July!
 
mglavin said:
Its even bigger then the "don't worry about the details just understand the concept" lie told by professors

So for all you new M1s please before you adopt the P=MD mantra realize that...

What you they teach you in M1 and M2 is tested on Step I. A poor to average Step I score can close doors to competitive specialties. Even if your sure you want to go into something that isn't competitive, a higher score might get you the better residency program/location of your choice.
Click to expand...
I think this depends schoolwise. Because at my school, there are people who just pass classes that do well on Step 1, and people who do awesome in classes and just do mediocre on Step 1. Of course, intuitively you would think those who do well in the first two years would tend to do better on Step 1, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the first two years' material is crucial for Step 1, it could just be that these people are good students to begin with. If your school teaches in a way that is geared towards the boards, then yeah doing well might be in your best interest, but otherwise, why bother?

For me, I don't believe putting in a zillion more hours just to get an honors instead of a high pass is worth it. Or a high pass instead of a pass. I'm no library superstar or workaholic, so yeah P=MD helps me stay sane and keep from getting burned out.

In case your new to science understand that learning is circular in the sense that you keep revisiting topics over and over again with more detail each time. What you learn in a textbook or lab the first two years comes back in a clinical form years 3 and 4. The more you learn now the easier it will be to learn later with the added details. So enjoy school but aim high to reach and exceed your potential.
Click to expand...
This is a good point, learn something once, easier to relearn later.
 
TheProwler said:
No, I don't believe it. College and the MCAT were much easier than med school and Step 1, no doubt. The fact that many people don't get in has no bearing on the difficulty, just the selectivity.
Click to expand...
I think this varies from person to person.

My undergrad was much, much harder than anything I had to deal with in MSI.
 
eternalrage said:
I think this varies from person to person.

My undergrad was much, much harder than anything I had to deal with in MSI.
Click to expand...
That is because m1 year is like licking syrup off a supermodel in hawaii compared to m2 and boards.

Honestly, M1s should not be talking about the difficulty of med school, because they haven't been exposed to it yet.
 
TheProwler said:
No, I don't believe it. College and the MCAT were much easier than med school and Step 1, no doubt. The fact that many people don't get in has no bearing on the difficulty, just the selectivity.
Click to expand...

Well, that's probably true, I may be mixing my terms. I probably meant selective instead of "difficult". My argument stemmed from the fact that if you are a capable student you WILL get through med school. The reverse is not always true however. All capable students do not get into med school. In fact, a lot of capable students do not get into med school. The firewall is highest there.
 
radslooking said:
Well, that's probably true, I may be mixing my terms. I probably meant selective instead of "difficult". My argument stemmed from the fact that if you are a capable student you WILL get through med school. The reverse is not always true however. All capable students do not get into med school. In fact, a lot of capable students do not get into med school. The firewall is highest there.
Click to expand...
Yes, but that is the whole point to the "firewall", to attempt to weed out the people that administrators do not feel will perform well in medical school and afterwards as a doctor. That way resources aren't wasted on people that are just going to fail/drop out.
 
Blesbok said:
Yes, but that is the whole point to the "firewall", to attempt to weed out the people that administrators do not feel will perform well in medical school and afterwards as a doctor. That way resources aren't wasted on people that are just going to fail/drop out.
Click to expand...

Well, there aren't enough seats for all those who are qualified, which is why some qualified people apply 2-3 times before getting accepted...

Plus, think of it this way, if you are from California, then qualified has a much different standard than if you are from texas.
 
docscience said:
Good Discussion Folks

I agree with the "formula" that was put up

Pass + High Step 1 + Good 3rd Year Clinical Rotations + Good Research + Good Connections = Sought Residency

What if hypothetically your class average was a 90/95....would you still not let the bottom 5% treat you, your family, etc? Do you even know what your physician's class rank is when you go see him/her??...I just think it is a douche bag thing to say...pretentious..."I would never let the bottom 5% doc treat my family" (however I don't even know my physicians class rank)

Another thing to realize is that there are many gunners that Honor everything, great good board scores, etc. and realize that they want to do FP or some other not so "illustrious" residency. (no offense to the FPs in here..much respect...just a stereotype).
Click to expand...

I hear you..

Goes to show you there are unconscientious / inconsiderate folk in this field also.. I definitely wouldnt want them treating me or my family. :idea:
 
docscience said:
Good Discussion Folks

I agree with the "formula" that was put up

Pass + High Step 1 + Good 3rd Year Clinical Rotations + Good Research + Good Connections = Sought Residency

What if hypothetically your class average was a 90/95....would you still not let the bottom 5% treat you, your family, etc? Do you even know what your physician's class rank is when you go see him/her??...I just think it is a douche bag thing to say...pretentious..."I would never let the bottom 5% doc treat my family" (however I don't even know my physicians class rank)

Another thing to realize is that there are many gunners that Honor everything, great good board scores, etc. and realize that they want to do FP or some other not so "illustrious" residency. (no offense to the FPs in here..much respect...just a stereotype).
Click to expand...

Okay I'm no elitist, but I tend to agree that no one wants the person ranked 120 out of a class of 120 for his doctor, that's not hard to understand. I mean come on, you know those people in your class, you'd never want them treating your cancer, diagnosing your neurological disorder, or patching up your aorta. And you'd never refer a family member to them later in life, would you?

However, based on your example of a test with a class average of 95%...that means that the exam was really ****ing easy. Like really easy. So how comfortable are you with the fact that your doctor was so far below the average on such an easy test?
 
docscience said:
What if hypothetically your class average was a 90/95....would you still not let the bottom 5% treat you, your family, etc? Do you even know what your physician's class rank is when you go see him/her??...I just think it is a douche bag thing to say...pretentious..."I would never let the bottom 5% doc treat my family" (however I don't even know my physicians class rank)
Click to expand...

It's not just because they're bottom 5% - I'm thinking of specific people who I would not trust to practice medicine, even if they pass Step III and get board certified someday. On the wards I worked with several people who I thought were lazy, dishonest, and lacking in both fund of knowledge and common sense. Knowing that they have failed classes in med school (but managed to graduate on time), I think I can safely assume they are in the bottom 5% or so.
 
lord_jeebus said:
It's not just because they're bottom 5% - I'm thinking of specific people who I would not trust to practice medicine, even if they pass Step III and get board certified someday. On the wards I worked with several people who I thought were lazy, dishonest, and lacking in both fund of knowledge and common sense. Knowing that they have failed classes in med school (but managed to graduate on time), I think I can safely assume they are in the bottom 5% or so.
Click to expand...

Reasonable comment..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

S
Need to be told whats realistic as a psych applicant
Replies
1
Views
687
SurfingDoctor
SurfingDoctor
B
P on Audition Rotation
Replies
6
Views
1K
Cornfed101
Cornfed101
D
What's the deepest and shallowest into a program's rank list you've ever heard of a program filling?
Replies
13
Views
2K
esob
esob
D
Do residents / fellows ever train in private practice settings?
Replies
11
Views
1K
DarkHorizon
D
L
P/F Clerkship Debate
Replies
23
Views
2K
ChordaEpiphany
C
Top