P=MD, the Most Glorious Equation

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Have you ever heard of the term minority stress?

I'm saying that racists cause harm to the people they are racist against. While you may be fine with people being racist in general, just personally I'm not okay with someone saying my race makes me somehow lesser. I think most people would agree with me. Going beyond racist words, you also have to consider racist actions such as hate crimes, creating racist policies, etc etc.

I had not heard of the term but am familiar with the concept. I think that stress would be a positive for the race in the long run. A lack of that stress would make one complacent. I could see you arguing that it would be damaging in the short term however. I'm ok with that. I compare it to health outcomes in chronic illness. There's not nearly as much minority stress on obese people as there was in the past, because the interventions are simply better and people can continue to wreak havoc to their bodies and only pay a small price thru surgery compared to death in the past. While those innovations might save more lives in the short term than a lacking of them would, I'd argue they are more damaging in the long run.

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If you think people in the Northeast are any less racist, then I'll think you'll be quite surprised.

All of those things happen in the northeast.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, from what I've experienced (~6 years in various cities in NE, midwest for med school, 8 years years in the south), he is absolutely right. NE is way less racist and has less fat religious nutjobbery than the midwest or south.
 
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Are you serious?

I can't relate to this is any way. Of course a huge reason I'm busting my *** is to get the specialty I want. Who cares how competitive a specialty was 10 years ago or could be in 10 years, the only going that matters to me is how competitive it is on match day.

There's colossal differences between specialties. Just because you're going to be a doctor doesn't mean you're going to be the doctor you want. The differences between being in outpatient psych and CV surgery at a huge academic center are almost as dissimilar as completely unrelated careers. People don't pick their specialty, the majority of the time, based on perceived current competitiveness or arbitrarily.

If someone wants to do NS and has 7 publications on the subject and wants to slog through that residency, they likely have developed some passion for the field. It makes 100% sense to do all you can if that's what you want to do for the next 40 years not only because "knowledge is its own reward." If you want to do Uro or GI now it doesn't matter what it will be in the next CMS meeting because you need a certain threshold of credentials now to get the specialty and program you desire today.

My point is that you should chase your interests rather than chasing money. I mean, I don't like to impugn people's motivations, but it's not a good idea to chase money and arbitrary concepts like "desirability" when history has proven that such concepts are so ephemeral.
 
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I had not heard of the term but am familiar with the concept. I think that stress would be a positive for the race in the long run. A lack of that stress would make one complacent. I could see you arguing that it would be damaging in the short term however. I'm ok with that. I compare it to health outcomes in chronic illness. There's not nearly as much minority stress on obese people as there was in the past, because the interventions are simply better and people can continue to wreak havoc to their bodies and only pay a small price thru surgery compared to death in the past. While those innovations might save more lives in the short term than a lacking of them would, I'd argue they are more damaging in the long run.
Lol wut. Minority stress is a primary reason why people of color have worse health outcomes. This isn't stress like being stressed about an exam, it's not a fleeting thing and it's not positive. I have no idea what you are getting at with obese populations because that doesn't fit at all
 
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Lol wut. Minority stress is a primary reason why people of color have worse health outcomes. This isn't stress like being stressed about an exam, it's not a fleeting thing and it's not positive. I have no idea what you are getting at with obese populations because that doesn't fit at all

in your opinion. I understand the term's meaning. my point is this: " give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish and you feed him for life." overcoming those stressors is what makes successful people.
 
in your opinion. I understand the term's meaning. my point is this: " give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish and you feed him for life." overcoming those stressors is what makes successful people.
No that's not my opinion... that's the entire concept of minority stress, which you clearly are not understanding. You don't overcome stressors, that's not how this works
 
Your entire point is really messed up, it seems like you are saying it's okay to treat minorities like crap because they will learn from it. That's super offensive, and it's like you think they are less capable and have to be cared for by whites. That sounds like some paternalistic white man's burden type ish.
 
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No that's not my opinion... that's the entire concept of minority stress, which you clearly are not understanding. You don't overcome stressors, that's not how this works

so no people from underprivileged backgrounds ever succeed? I assumed this is how our conversation would go YOLO
 
Your entire point is really messed up, it seems like you are saying it's okay to treat minorities like crap because they will learn from it. That's super offensive, and it's like you think they are less capable and have to be cared for by whites. Like that sounds like some paternalistic white man's burden type ish.

I'd argue the fact that you think they need reparations is paternalistic. I think they're strong enough to stand on their own and fix any issues that arise themselves. Affirmative action is extremely paternalistic. It's making the statement that without help, the recipients of it would not be able to compete with their peers who do not receive help.
 
Lol way to argue against points I never made. If you want to deal with things I actually said that would be great
 
Lol way to argue against points I never made. If you want to deal with things I actually said that would be great

I didn't say it's ok, I said it's in their best interest. Those aren't the same thing. I don't think they're less capable. I think they're plenty capable, hence why they can handle the issue on their own. If I have a 6 yr old child and a teacher wrongs them, I will step in because they are unable to handle the issue them-self. If I have a 20 yr old college student child and a professor wrongs them, I'm not stepping in because at 20 they're big enough to handle their own battles. What I'm doing is the opposite of paternalism.
 
I didn't say it's ok, I said it's in their best interest. Those aren't the same thing. I don't think they're less capable. I think they're plenty capable, hence why they can handle the issue on their own. If I have a 6 yr old child and a teacher wrongs them, I will step in because they are unable to handle the issue them-self. If I have a 20 yr old college student child and a professor wrongs them, I'm not stepping in because at 20 they're big enough to handle their own battles. What I'm doing is the opposite of paternalism.
No one is saying you should step in.
 
My entire point is that racists tend to treat people they are racist against badly, and that tends to have a negative impact on said people who are being treated badly. I don't understand why that's a difficult concept to grasp.
 
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Btw saying you know what's in someone's best interest is pretty much the definition of paternalism
 
My entire point is that racists tend to treat people they are racist against badly, and that tends to have a negative impact on said people who are being treated badly. I don't understand why that's a difficult concept to grasp.

But it's all dandy, touchpause! Being savagely discriminated against is an evolutionary advantage, it's well known. We should embrace that.
 
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Btw saying you know what's in someone's best interest is pretty much the definition of paternalism

not at all, because I'm not acting upon it. I'm not imposing that upon them, it's just my theory about what is best for them. paternalism requires you to actively pursue encouraging someone to do what you recommend. I'm not doing that at all.
 
Have you ever heard of the term minority stress?

I'm saying that racists cause harm to the people they are racist against. While you may be fine with people being racist in general, just personally I'm not okay with someone saying my race makes me somehow lesser. I think most people would agree with me. Going beyond racist words, you also have to consider racist actions such as hate crimes, creating racist policies, etc etc.
I'm with you on racism being horrible but the idea of "hate crimes" is bad legislation. Crimes aee crimes, trying to leislate motive is a bad idea
 
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I will never understand this attitude. "In order to get a grade indicating I worked hard, I have to work hard. But I don't want to work hard, because it's hard work!"

People complain too damn much. I'd much rather put in the work now and have it pay off in the long run.

Unfortunately in this time, few share your viewpoint (and one I agree with).
 
I don't know what you guys are talking about, from what I've experienced (~6 years in various cities in NE, midwest for med school, 8 years years in the south), he is absolutely right. NE is way less racist and has less fat religious nutjobbery than the midwest or south.

Have you experienced small town northeast? I'm from central Pennsylvania, the snack capital of the world, where most people are overweight or obese. I also went to a school that is 98% white and the few minorities didn't have the best of times. Predominantly a conservative area. Of course a city will be different, which is why I escaped for college and med school.
 
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Have you experienced small town northeast? I'm from central Pennsylvania, the snack capital of the world, where most people are overweight or obese. I also went to a school that is 98% white and the few minorities didn't have the best of times. Predominantly a conservative area. Of course a city will be different, which is why I escaped for college and med school.
Pennsyltucky straight reppin!
 
Have you experienced small town northeast? I'm from central Pennsylvania, the snack capital of the world, where most people are overweight or obese. I also went to a school that is 98% white and the few minorities didn't have the best of times. Predominantly a conservative area. Of course a city will be different, which is why I escaped for college and med school.

Well, sure, small towns are small towns no matter where you go. I've been to central PA and it sucks. There are incredibly hick conservative areas of california as well though. I am just speaking generally.
 
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@touchpause13 @PL198 - You guys aren't disagreeing about anything. PL198 is talking about his belief that paternalism is a bad thing, and tp is talking about how racism is a bad thing (which I think we all agree with). You guys may have very different world views (and I generally agree with both of you on various topics... tp about social equality issues and PL198 about the general role of government), but there is no conflict here. At least not one that has been explicitly stated in the past 2 pages.

I don't necessarily think paternalism is a bad thing and think there's always going to be a fair amount of it in medicine(something I support, the physician/patient interaction should never be 50/50). I was debating that in the spirit of TP saying it's wrong.
 
I don't know what you guys are talking about, from what I've experienced (~6 years in various cities in NE, midwest for med school, 8 years years in the south), he is absolutely right. NE is way less racist and has less fat religious nutjobbery than the midwest or south.
Going to have to agree with this, having lived for about 8 years in the South, 8 years in the NW, and 11 years in the NE. There's a lot of nice people in the South, and not all the religious types are bad- some of them are actually the nicest people you'll ever meet. But racism, both overt and behind closed doors, is certainly more prevalent.
 
@touchpause13 @PL198 - You guys aren't disagreeing about anything. PL198 is talking about his belief that paternalism is a bad thing, and tp is talking about how racism is a bad thing (which I think we all agree with). You guys may have very different world views (and I generally agree with both of you on various topics... tp about social equality issues and PL198 about the general role of government), but there is no conflict here. At least not one that has been explicitly stated in the past 2 pages.

False.

I wouldn't say either intrinsically cause harm. I'm completely fine with people being racist, they should just be able to admit it. We prefer humans over other animals, because they are more similar to us. Why would this comparison stop at the species level?

By the way, this line of reasoning is one of the few that directly lead me to become a vegetarian.

I had not heard of the term but am familiar with the concept. I think that stress would be a positive for the race in the long run. A lack of that stress would make one complacent. I could see you arguing that it would be damaging in the short term however. I'm ok with that. I compare it to health outcomes in chronic illness. There's not nearly as much minority stress on obese people as there was in the past, because the interventions are simply better and people can continue to wreak havoc to their bodies and only pay a small price thru surgery compared to death in the past. While those innovations might save more lives in the short term than a lacking of them would, I'd argue they are more damaging in the long run.

The analogy here completely demonstrates your lack of understanding as to what a minority stressor is and is also ridiculous.

in your opinion. I understand the term's meaning. my point is this: " give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish and you feed him for life." overcoming those stressors is what makes successful people.

More lack of understanding.

I didn't say it's ok, I said it's in their best interest. Those aren't the same thing. I don't think they're less capable. I think they're plenty capable, hence why they can handle the issue on their own. If I have a 6 yr old child and a teacher wrongs them, I will step in because they are unable to handle the issue them-self. If I have a 20 yr old college student child and a professor wrongs them, I'm not stepping in because at 20 they're big enough to handle their own battles. What I'm doing is the opposite of paternalism.

Actually, you said both of those things.

ITT, Racial myopia.
 
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False.



By the way, this line of reasoning is one of the few that directly lead me to become a vegetarian.



The analogy here completely demonstrates your lack of understanding as to what a minority stressor is and is also ridiculous.



More lack of understanding.



Actually, you said both of those things.

ITT, Racial myopia.

diagnosing me with mental illness as a pre-med, impressive. now scamper back to your circle jerk of saving the world by working 120 hours a week for free between doing mission trips to kenya
 

Oh, I didn't see the "I'm completely fine with people being racist" quote.

@PL198 - I have no idea how you can justify that to yourself. Racism is perhaps a natural manifestation of ignorance... and it's one no one should be okay with. People have a right to believe whatever they want, but I sure as hell don't have to be okay with what they believe.
 
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Racial myopia is a metaphor, not a diagnosis.

nah actually there are psychs that believe racism is a disease. regardless, back to the pits of pre-med hell for you
 
Oh, I didn't see the "I'm completely fine with people being racist" quote.

@PL198 - I have no idea how you can justify that to yourself. Racism is perhaps a natural manifestation of ignorance... and it's one no one should be okay with. People have a right to believe whatever they want, but I sure as hell don't have to be okay with what they believe.

the two quotes weren't even about the same thing. the second one is about an intervention on behalf of racial pressure. hence the context of the whole thing which is easily viewable.

again, until one of you can answer this question, there is no reason for racism to not occur naturally. do we not prefer humans over other animals? why do you think that is? is that wrong? why do you think that preference would stop at the species level? it's natural. you realize there's just as much positive racism as there is negative racism, right? ie people choosing to be around similar people = racism, yet that's not some evil thing, it's biologically expected.
 
Oh, I didn't see the "I'm completely fine with people being racist" quote.

@PL198 - I have no idea how you can justify that to yourself. Racism is perhaps a natural manifestation of ignorance... and it's one no one should be okay with. People have a right to believe whatever they want, but I sure as hell don't have to be okay with what they believe.
There you go. That's where I'm finding a conflict with him
 
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I don't necessarily think paternalism is a bad thing and think there's always going to be a fair amount of it in medicine(something I support, the physician/patient interaction should never be 50/50). I was debating that in the spirit of TP saying it's wrong.
I never said that paternalistism is always wrong. I'm saying that the specific paternalistic attitudes you are exhibiting are at minimum problematic. We aren't talking about the physician pt relationship here, you are talking as a member of a majority group that you know best for a minority group and that it's actually good for them to experience discrimination. That kind of thinking doesn't exactly have the greatest track record.
 
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Well, sure, small towns are small towns no matter where you go. I've been to central PA and it sucks. There are incredibly hick conservative areas of california as well though. I am just speaking generally.

Generally, the Northeast is just as racist as anywhere else, including the South. Places like Philadelphia and New York are among the most racially segregated cities in the country. New York City has the most racially segregated public school system in the nation. To paint the NE as some shining beacon of racial enlightenment is downright clueless.
 
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I never said that paternalistism is always wrong. I'm saying that the specific paternalistic attitudes you are exhibiting are at minimum problematic. We aren't talking about the physician pt relationship here, you are talking as a member of a majority group that you know best for a minority group and that it's actually good for them to experience discrimination. That kind of thinking doesn't exactly have the greatest track record.
lol you can't reason with people like that. Props for trying tho
 
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Generally, the Northeast is just as racist as anywhere else, including the South. Places like Philadelphia and New York are among the most racially segregated cities in the country. New York City has the most racially segregated public school system in the nation. To paint the NE as some shining beacon of racial enlightenment is downright clueless.

Segregation is not the same as racism to me. I'm talking about day to day interactions with people - more often than not, people in Philly/NYC do not really give three ****s what race you are. Nor are interracial couples stared at. Nor do you get asked ******* ignorant questions.
 
the two quotes weren't even about the same thing. the second one is about an intervention on behalf of racial pressure. hence the context of the whole thing which is easily viewable.

again, until one of you can answer this question, there is no reason for racism to not occur naturally. do we not prefer humans over other animals? why do you think that is? is that wrong? why do you think that preference would stop at the species level? it's natural. you realize there's just as much positive racism as there is negative racism, right? ie people choosing to be around similar people = racism, yet that's not some evil thing, it's biologically expected.

Yes, yes there is. Once you understand that we're all people and we have a lot more in common than we have differences, and we all have the same basic needs and desires and imperfections, you realize there is literally no justifiable reason to make sweeping generalizations or assumptions about entire groups of people. We all have the same potential for good and bad.

Bringing animals into this is a ridiculous comparison, and you know it. Animals do not share the same qualities I mentioned above with us. Sure, I'm against animal cruelty (as is any person with a moral compass), but to claim that we're the same as even our closest primate cousins is insane.
 
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Segregation is not the same as racism to me. I'm talking about day to day interactions with people - more often than not, people in Philly/NYC do not really give three ****s what race you are. Nor are interracial couples stared at. Nor do you get asked ******* ignorant questions.

the two quotes weren't even about the same thing. the second one is about an intervention on behalf of racial pressure. hence the context of the whole thing which is easily viewable.

again, until one of you can answer this question, there is no reason for racism to not occur naturally. do we not prefer humans over other animals? why do you think that is? is that wrong? why do you think that preference would stop at the species level? it's natural. you realize there's just as much positive racism as there is negative racism, right? ie people choosing to be around similar people = racism, yet that's not some evil thing, it's biologically expected.

Uh... I don't know if I should respond to all this or not. I'll only say, racism can also be argued on the basis of cultural/societal perspectives, New England does have areas of racism and hostility, and segregation is usually brought about due to some form of discrimination; look at how the US segregated thousands of Japanese during WWII. And racism is a form of discrimination.
 
But aren't we supposed to be talking about the OP's question at hand?
 
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diagnosing me with mental illness as a pre-med, impressive. now scamper back to your circle jerk of saving the world by working 120 hours a week for free between doing mission trips to kenya
A little bit of adversity is a good thing. Living in a country where you are often treated like an unwelcome outsider despite it being your home is not. A lack of opportunities because of the color of your skin is certainly not good or just, by any definitions of the words. The data pretty much speaks for itself- those born in adverse conditions far more often than not have poorer outcomes than those who are not. Your whole "it's good for them" theory doesn't pan out on any level.
 
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Generally, the Northeast is just as racist as anywhere else, including the South. Places like Philadelphia and New York are among the most racially segregated cities in the country. New York City has the most racially segregated public school system in the nation. To paint the NE as some shining beacon of racial enlightenment is downright clueless.

Yup. People forget that Stop-and-Frisk happened in New York City, NOT Atlanta, Nashville, Birmingham, Dallas, or Houston.

Also that Ferguson, MO is NOT in the South.

Is there tons of racism in the South? Yes. Is there tons of racism everywhere in America? Yes.

While there may be (a lot) more religious nuttery in the South (no one can honestly deny this), that nuttery does not have a 1:1 correlation with racism by any means.
 
Natives in Boston and Providence are among the most racist people I've met, if we are going to generalize/stereotype groups of people...

I would say the suburbs of New England that are not known for having diverse members can have quite interesting views when it comes to those who don't fit a certain socioeconomic and/or cultural/racial demographic.
 
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I would say the suburbs of New England that are not known for having diverse members can have quite interesting views when it comes to those who don't fit a certain socioeconomic and/or cultural/racial demographic.

I think that we are saying largely the same thing, but your use of big words confuses my simple brain ;)
 

What is your argument here...dafuq

Uh... I don't know if I should respond to all this or not. I'll only say, racism can also be argued on the basis of cultural/societal perspectives, New England does have areas of racism and hostility, and segregation is usually brought about due to some form of discrimination; look at how the US segregated thousands of Japanese during WWII. And racism is a form of discrimination.

I was never saying that NE is a sunshiney place of tolerance. Just that day to day living in a city in the NE as a non-white person was a lot less irritating than the south or midwest, where people will say stupid ignorant crap regularly. Just my experience.
 
I was never saying that NE is a sunshiney place of tolerance. Just that day to day living in a city in the NE as a non-white person was a lot less irritating than the south or midwest, where people will say stupid ignorant crap regularly. Just my experience.

Wait...you mean you don't look like Peter Griffin?

...

World. Shattered.
 
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I think that we are saying largely the same thing, but your use of big words confuses my simple brain ;)

I didn't mean to use big words to confuse you. I blame this on my social science background. :oops:

What is your argument here...dafuq



I was never saying that NE is a sunshiney place of tolerance. Just that day to day living in a city in the NE as a non-white person was a lot less irritating than the south or midwest, where people will say stupid ignorant crap regularly. Just my experience.

I can understand that.
 
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