P=MD, the Most Glorious Equation

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Also, for rotations, the volume is way different compared to the 1st two years. Those were more manageable since I would do an hour reading daily. Usually, I can do that and maybe more at the hospital, so I can go home and actually relax for once.
 
It's easier working for 12 hours and then coming home to study for a few hours than it is to study for 8-12 hours.
Actually no it isn't. The fact that you can say this with a straight face that working for 12 straight hours on a clerkship (or even worse in residency when you're actually responsible for getting **** done) shows you have no idea of the reality.
 
It's easier working for 12 hours and then coming home to study for a few hours than it is to study for 8-12 hours.

what... why. studying you sit in a chair and just have to recite words in your head. you're physically tired aftering working for 12 hours a day
 
what... why. studying you sit in a chair and just have to recite words in your head. you're physically tired aftering working for 12 hours a day
On a clerkship, you'll be physically and mentally tired depending on the clerkship.
 
On a clerkship, you'll be physically and mentally tired depending on the clerkship.

hey man you'll be so energized though because you're in a hospital setting for 12 hours straight

not srs

in other news, I discovered Kaplan videos today. Any of the M1s in this thread, if you buy a review book, watch the kaplan lectures for whatever you're learning and look at your notes, you'll pretty much be golden.
 
Actually no it isn't. The fact that you can say this with a straight face that working for 12 straight hours on a clerkship (or even worse in residency when you're actually responsible for getting **** done) shows you have no idea of the reality.
I worked 12 hour days on 3rd shift and studied for the MCAT?
 
lol took the MCAT dry, it's a bit different than step 1 in terms of difficulty. typical medical topics aren't really difficult concept wise, but compared to MCAT topics, it's like particle physics vs kinematics.
 
lol took the MCAT dry, it's a bit different than step 1 in terms of difficulty. typical medical topics aren't really difficult concept wise, but compared to MCAT topics, it's like particle physics vs kinematics.
You also get several shots at the MCAT in reality, so it's really much easier to try to up your score on the MCAT with practice AAMC exams, Examkrackers, Princeton Review, etc.
 
lol took the MCAT dry, it's a bit different than step 1 in terms of difficulty. typical medical topics aren't really difficult concept wise, but compared to MCAT topics, it's like particle physics vs kinematics.

MCAT is way harder than Step 1. Step 1 is the stupidest test ever. Memorize a bunch of facts, expand your vocabulary and don't make stupid mistakes. MCAT actually requires you to think through a problem, interpret data and make next step deductions.

fwiw, 269 on Step 1 and 37 on the MCAT.
 
MCAT is way harder than Step 1. Step 1 is the stupidest test ever. Memorize a bunch of facts, expand your vocabulary and don't make stupid mistakes. MCAT actually requires you to think through a problem, interpret data and make next step deductions.

fwiw, 269 on Step 1 and 37 on the MCAT.
I can't believe you think your MCAT score and USMLE score prove your point. And no, Step 1 is not memorizing a bunch of facts. That will get you maybe a passing score, but it won't even get you the average.
 
MCAT is way harder than Step 1. Step 1 is the stupidest test ever. Memorize a bunch of facts, expand your vocabulary and don't make stupid mistakes. MCAT actually requires you to think through a problem, interpret data and make next step deductions.

fwiw, 269 on Step 1 and 37 on the MCAT.

lol what? I don't know if you're trolling me or what. MCAT requires thinking through a problem and next step, but step 1 doesn't? Lol wut everyone always talks about NBME questions being higher order and not just basic factoid memorization. I'd agree the MCAT is essentially reading comprehension and eliminating mistakes, but I wouldn't go much past that. It's much more indicative of intelligence for that reason IMO. I can get ~90th percentile in the MCAT taking it dry, I couldn't even pass step 1 without studying I'm sure.

I wonder if you have like survival bias but in the negative manner due to your insane score which might make you feel guilty about it or something? Not trying to pull a psych dx, but since you got a 269 I'm pretty sure you're just a few levels above memorizing facts and extremely likely to be a total baller so it seems strange you'd have that view.
 
lol what? I don't know if you're trolling me or what. MCAT requires thinking through a problem and next step, but step 1 doesn't? Lol wut everyone always talks about NBME questions being higher order and not just basic factoid memorization. I'd agree the MCAT is essentially reading comprehension and eliminating mistakes, but I wouldn't go much past that. It's much more indicative of intelligence for that reason IMO. I can get ~90th percentile in the MCAT taking it dry, I couldn't even pass step 1 without studying I'm sure.

I wonder if you have like survival bias but in the negative manner due to your insane score which might make you feel guilty about it or something? Not trying to pull a psych dx, but since you got a 269 I'm pretty sure you're just a few levels above memorizing facts and extremely likely to be a total baller so it seems strange you'd have that view.
He got a 37 on his MCAT which places him at the 98th percentile of scores. He then got a 269 which is greater than 2 standard deviations above the mean (although that mean is increasing) as the USMLE doesn't calculate percentiles.

At least if you're going to make up scores to prove your point, he should have made a low MCAT, with a high USMLE, which is actually possible and people have done it (even looking at prior SDN history threads). I don't know how common this is though.
 
what... why. studying you sit in a chair and just have to recite words in your head. you're physically tired aftering working for 12 hours a day
I'd rather be physically doing something than sitting in a chair and clicking through Powerpoint slides for hours on end.
 
MCAT is way harder than Step 1. Step 1 is the stupidest test ever. Memorize a bunch of facts, expand your vocabulary and don't make stupid mistakes. MCAT actually requires you to think through a problem, interpret data and make next step deductions.

fwiw, 269 on Step 1 and 37 on the MCAT.
I have not taken step 1 yet, but I have heard that from many who have taken both... Lets see if mid-to-upper 20 MCAT can get me a 240+ step 1.
 
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He got a 37 on his MCAT which places him at the 98th percentile of scores. He then got a 269 which is greater than 2 standard deviations above the mean (although that mean is increasing) as the USMLE doesn't calculate percentiles.

At least if you're going to make up scores to prove your point, he should have made a low MCAT, with a high USMLE, which is actually possible and people have done it (even looking at prior SDN history threads). I don't know how common this is though.

Yeah but 2 std dev above mean on step 1 is way more impressive than 98th percentile in MCAT. Look at the test-takers of MCAT vs Step. I just find it strange someone that did that well on step 1 would think it's a memorization test. To get that kind of score you have to have insane integration and conceptual knowledge.

1 std dev above mean in MCAT just makes you kinda competitive for lower tier schools.
1 std dev above mean on step 1 makes you competitive for nearly all services
 
I wonder if you have like survival bias but in the negative manner due to your insane score which might make you feel guilty about it or something? Not trying to pull a psych dx, but since you got a 269 I'm pretty sure you're just a few levels above memorizing facts and extremely likely to be a total baller so it seems strange you'd have that view.
Not unheard of! I know someone who got 255 step 1 and had a low 20 MCAT... His sentiment is the same with @notbobtrustme --Step 1 is a memorization test...
 
Yeah but 2 std dev above mean on step 1 is way more impressive than 98th percentile in MCAT. Look at the test-takers of MCAT vs Step. I just find it strange someone that did that well on step 1 would think it's a memorization test. To get that kind of score you have to have insane integration and conceptual knowledge.
Once you get above a certain score on the USMLE, you're pretty much in the 99th percentile of all test takers. The USMLE score is more impressive bc you have a higher caliber of student taking the test. It's like a funnel that tapers down as you progress thru education where you're filtering out more and more people who don't meet the threshold. There's a way to calculate your percentile when you know certain numbers: http://www.usmlegunner.com/2013/02/usmle-step-exam-score-to-percentile.html

I'm not surprised he thinks it's a memorization test. For people like that, the integration and putting together concepts comes so easily to them, it's automatic so it "feels" like it's just 1 step memorization. In actuality, it isn't and the NBME even says this.
 
Didn't read this whole thing (gotta study, right?), but just wanted to chime in.

I studied my ASS off in undergrad. My relationship with my girlfriend was miserable. I would study until 11PM, go to bed, and do it all over again. I ended up with a 4.0 in my chemistry major with bio undergrad which was good. Studied hard again for MCATs and only got a 30. Fine but it was a lot of work. First two years of med school I took it easy and my life is so much better. Obviously I can't do ortho or anything like that but luckily I'm not interested in that. I can't imagine what it would take for me to get honors (top 15%) I don't think it would be physically possible for me to do. Even if it was possible I would be miserable and so would everyone around me. It is definitely a bummer going from one of the top kids in my undergrad class to the bottom of my med school class, but I need to start living my life at some point. I am mid 20's already and missed out on college. Don't want to miss out on family/friends/married/hobbies anymore.
 
I will never understand this attitude. "In order to get a grade indicating I worked hard, I have to work hard. But I don't want to work hard, because it's hard work!"

People complain too damn much. I'd much rather put in the work now and have it pay off in the long run.

Came here to say the same thing.

All these people who say that "wasting" time going the extra distance during 2-3 years of medical school keeps them from enjoying their lives are, in some ways, very short-sighted.

I look at it this way: I busted my ass for 3 short years (and some of 4th year) so that I have the luxury of enjoying the next 35+ years not stuck in a specialty that keeps me from enjoying those same things I was worried about missing out on during medical school.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess.
 
Didn't read this whole thing (gotta study, right?), but just wanted to chime in.

I studied my ASS off in undergrad. My relationship with my girlfriend was miserable. I would study until 11PM, go to bed, and do it all over again. I ended up with a 4.0 in my chemistry major with bio undergrad which was good. Studied hard again for MCATs and only got a 30. Fine but it was a lot of work. First two years of med school I took it easy and my life is so much better. Obviously I can't do ortho or anything like that but luckily I'm not interested in that. I can't imagine what it would take for me to get honors (top 15%) I don't think it would be physically possible for me to do. Even if it was possible I would be miserable and so would everyone around me. It is definitely a bummer going from one of the top kids in my undergrad class to the bottom of my med school class, but I need to start living my life at some point. I am mid 20's already and missed out on college. Don't want to miss out on family/friends/married/hobbies anymore.
But then what about residency?
 
This is totally true. There were a lot of problems I was able to sort out just by process of elimination and logical deduction with only a cursory knowledge of the material being tested.

100% agree. I managed a similar MCAT score to his without ever taking a science class. If you are a good test taker, the MCAT is totally doable. Maybe not a 40+, but mid 30s totally.

I think Step 1 can be either/or and it simply depends on the person. A 260+ with just memorization is only possible if you are an absolute rockstar of memorizing. I have a buddy who did just that as well, an absolute beast of a memory and the fastest test-taker I've met, finished Step 1 2-3 hours early. I'm more a "big picture" learn the concepts kind of person who used every second of his step 1 time to get the exact same score he did. To me, it wasn't memorization at all, merely applying the concepts I already knew and understood.

So, lots of roads to Oz, but anyone in the 260+ range is probably more naturally gifted AND worked harder than most; as such, their advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
100% agree. I managed a similar MCAT score to his without ever taking a science class. If you are a good test taker, the MCAT is totally doable. Maybe not a 40+, but mid 30s totally.

I think Step 1 can be either/or and it simply depends on the person. A 260+ with just memorization is only possible if you are an absolute rockstar of memorizing. I have a buddy who did just that as well, an absolute beast of a memory and the fastest test-taker I've met, finished Step 1 2-3 hours early. I'm more a "big picture" learn the concepts kind of person who used every second of his step 1 time to get the exact same score he did. To me, it wasn't memorization at all, merely applying the concepts I already knew and understood.

So, lots of roads to Oz, but anyone in the 260+ range is probably more naturally gifted AND worked harder than most; as such, their advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
It also took you only 2 weeks of review before you took your test. You and your friend are very much at the head end of the curve.
 
Came here to say the same thing.

All these people who say that "wasting" time going the extra distance during 2-3 years of medical school keeps them from enjoying their lives are, in some ways, very short-sighted.

I look at it this way: I busted my ass for 3 short years (and some of 4th year) so that I have the luxury of enjoying the next 35+ years not stuck in a specialty that keeps me from enjoying those same things I was worried about missing out on during medical school.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess.

Who says all uncompetitive specialties are miserable? Psych seems like a good gig, so does PMR, and Anesthesiology.
 
Who says all uncompetitive specialties are miserable? Psych seems like a good gig, so does PMR, and Anesthesiology.
You think Anesthesiology is a specialty where you sit back and do nothing? Psych is much better but it also has a more effective filter when it comes to patients they take and even then you will do more inpatient Psych.

PM&R it depends on the program as far as how much inpatient/outpatient there is.
 
You think Anesthesiology is a specialty where you sit back and do nothing? Psych is much better but it also has a more effective filter when it comes to patients they take and even then you will do more inpatient Psych.

PM&R it depends on the program as far as how much inpatient/outpatient there is.
I can't imagine many worse fates than babysitting 4 CRNAs all day while serving as their liability tampon as some AMC skims all the profit they can from my billing number.
 
It also took you only 2 weeks of review before you took your test. You and your friend are very much at the head end of the curve.

Which is why I think our pontifications about what a test is or isn't should be considered in context. I think a lot of the younger posters see the 260+ club and think we know the secret to these tests when the truth has a lot more to do with our hard work over time and our innate intellectual gifts. I would never advise anyone else to only study for 2 weeks, but I do think that your work over the two years prior is what sets you up for success or failure. I can't imagine cramming a bunch of high yield info for 5-6 weeks and doing well, but some people can obviously make that work for them. Ultimately, I think the successful students are the ones who are smart enough and self-aware enough to figure out what will work for them and then do it.
 
This is totally true. There were a lot of problems I was able to sort out just by process of elimination and logical deduction with only a cursory knowledge of the material being tested.

Even if this was 100% true, the test is still a beast for most people. Theres a reason 30 is 81st percentile and 4/5 people taking the test don't get a score sufficient to get into medical school
 
Came here to say the same thing.

All these people who say that "wasting" time going the extra distance during 2-3 years of medical school keeps them from enjoying their lives are, in some ways, very short-sighted.

I look at it this way: I busted my ass for 3 short years (and some of 4th year) so that I have the luxury of enjoying the next 35+ years not stuck in a specialty that keeps me from enjoying those same things I was worried about missing out on during medical school.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess.

Isn't that the whole philosophy of pre-med? Like you give up stuff now for the rewards later? It seems strange to me that people abandon that at the next stage. I would think as you increase in the ranks you'd pick up a more severe " work now to rest later" mentality, not the opposite.
 
Which is why I think our pontifications about what a test is or isn't should be considered in context. I think a lot of the younger posters see the 260+ club and think we know the secret to these tests when the truth has a lot more to do with our hard work over time and our innate intellectual gifts. I would never advise anyone else to only study for 2 weeks, but I do think that your work over the two years prior is what sets you up for success or failure. I can't imagine cramming a bunch of high yield info for 5-6 weeks and doing well, but some people can obviously make that work for them. Ultimately, I think the successful students are the ones who are smart enough and self-aware enough to figure out what will work for them and then do it.
Not to mention the ones (IMHO) who tend to get the 260+ scores are the people who are also highly performing THROUGHOUT the first 2 years as well. I think just saying, f' class I'm just going to buy good review books, FA, and Qbanks and only study those and get my 260+ that way is a bad game plan. Not saying it's not possible, but I haven't seen that happen, esp. since the test writers are now testing things that aren't found directly in review books.
 
Even if this was 100% true, the test is still a beast for most people. Theres a reason 30 is 81st percentile and 4/5 people taking the test don't get a score sufficient to get into medical school
I think it's an interesting test- you can approach it different ways. The hard way is by learning everything you can possibly know about the subjects. The easy way is reading a whole hell of a lot your entire life and then using your reading comprehension to pick it apart the science passages via deductive reasoning.

Most people nowadays don't read nonfiction pieces and scientific journals all that much, so the sort of person who can do well on the MCAT with VR skills alone is a very rare thing indeed. But every single passage I encountered was more a test of logic and reading comprehension than it was of knowledge or mathematical skill.
 
Ugh, reading comprehension..nightmares....*shudders*
 
Until you realize you have to take care of psych patients and chronic pain patients, respectively. Ya, no thanks.
You're shocked Psych doctors have to take care of Psych patients? :shrug:Ok. There are many people across all income levels with anxiety, depression, etc. that you can effectively help and get their life back together. That's a very gratifying thing to do.
 
Isn't that the whole philosophy of pre-med? Like you give up stuff now for the rewards later? It seems strange to me that people abandon that at the next stage. I would think as you increase in the ranks you'd pick up a more severe " work now to rest later" mentality, not the opposite.

Working hard in undergrad and working hard in med school are two different things. I don't have the stamina or the inclination to work hard in med school. As long as I pass everything, I'm fine. Worst case scenario is I match into FM. It's not my ideal specialty, but whatever -- it's a job.
 
Not to mention the ones (IMHO) who tend to get the 260+ scores are the people who are also highly performing THROUGHOUT the first 2 years as well. I think just saying, f' class I'm just going to buy good review books, FA, and Qbanks and only study those and get my 260+ that way is a bad game plan. Not saying it's not possible, but I haven't seen that happen, esp. since the test writers are now testing things that aren't found directly in review books.

Amen brother. In reviewing students' CVs for AOA, the high boards and high grades went hand in hand.

I can think of 2-3 people offhand from previous years at our school with stellar step 1 boards (256, 270, 280) and low grades (one of them I'm not 100% sure on grades but person was not AOA so, by our formula, her grades had to be low enough to keep her out of top 25%). In ALL cases, the amount of time and effort they put into memorizing review books (we're talking all throughout the year) was a lot more than if they'd just learned the assigned material and supplemented a bit with review texts. These are far and away the exceptions to the rule and were also extremely intelligent people. I can think of a LOT more people who eschewed classwork in favor of boards study who wound up having to extend their study period and delay 3rd year because they were at risk for failure and others who failed classes themselves. Many more just ended up with below average scores.

Anyone with the chops for a 270 has the chops to run the table on class grades, so why not just do it? Insane step + low grades = WTF is wrong with this person? I sure wouldn't want them as my co-resident!
 
Isn't that the whole philosophy of pre-med? Like you give up stuff now for the rewards later? It seems strange to me that people abandon that at the next stage. I would think as you increase in the ranks you'd pick up a more severe " work now to rest later" mentality, not the opposite.
You're in a BS/MD program where the first filter is effectively taken out. It can get exhausting having to jump thru hoops for some people - premed, MCAT, med school, residentcy, fellowship, etc. It's delayed gratification for a longer period of time and can feel never ending for people.
 
Working hard in undergrad and working hard in med school are two different things. I don't have the stamina or the inclination to work hard in med school. As long as I pass everything, I'm fine. Worst case scenario is I match into FM. It's not my ideal specialty, but whatever -- it's a job.
He's in a BS/MD. He didn't have to work hard in undergrad to enter med school. It was essentially a conditional acceptance at age 17.
 
You're in a BS/MD program where the first filter is effectively taken out. It can get exhausting having to jump thru hoops for some people - premed, MCAT, med school, residentcy, fellowship, etc. It's delayed gratification for a longer period of time and can feel never ending for people.

I'd disagree with that, I had to bust my balls for 2 years to get done the same thing other people do in 4, and ended up with the same MCAT as the avgs for most average schools. I'd say my hoop was higher up
 
Amen brother. In reviewing students' CVs for AOA, the high boards and high grades went hand in hand.

I can think of 2-3 people offhand from previous years at our school with stellar step 1 boards (256, 270, 280) and low grades (one of them I'm not 100% sure on grades but person was not AOA so, by our formula, her grades had to be low enough to keep her out of top 25%). In ALL cases, the amount of time and effort they put into memorizing review books (we're talking all throughout the year) was a lot more than if they'd just learned the assigned material and supplemented a bit with review texts. These are far and away the exceptions to the rule and were also extremely intelligent people. I can think of a LOT more people who eschewed classwork in favor of boards study who wound up having to extend their study period and delay 3rd year because they were at risk for failure and others who failed classes themselves. Many more just ended up with below average scores.

Anyone with the chops for a 270 has the chops to run the table on class grades, so why not just do it? Insane step + low grades = WTF is wrong with this person? I sure wouldn't want them as my co-resident!
That's why I hate this "one size fits all" rule that the only thing that matters in the first 2 years is Step 1. Why would a residency want someone who aces a 1 day exam, but didn't give a **** for 2 straight years and got straight "P"s? They want people who can maintain a good work ethic even if there isn't an immediate award.

I think also the quality of teaching/lecturing can vary greatly at different medical schools across the country. So just bc you master faculty made powerpoints, course packs or syllabi at your school doesn't necessarily mean you'll do well on the Step. Your example (bolded) is what I see more often.
 
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I'd disagree with that, I had to bust my balls for 2 years to get done the same thing other people do in 4, and ended up with the same MCAT as the avgs for most average schools. I'd say my hoop was higher up
Your minimum MCAT score required to enroll at your medical school (as part of the program) is much lower than that in the normal traditional pathway where there is no minimum score where acceptance is assured. It makes perfect sense since your entire undergraduate education was 2 years. It would be unfair to expect you to get a fantastic MCAT score when your curriculum is much more overloaded and compressed.
 
Came here to say the same thing.

All these people who say that "wasting" time going the extra distance during 2-3 years of medical school keeps them from enjoying their lives are, in some ways, very short-sighted.

I look at it this way: I busted my ass for 3 short years (and some of 4th year) so that I have the luxury of enjoying the next 35+ years not stuck in a specialty that keeps me from enjoying those same things I was worried about missing out on during medical school.

Diff'rent strokes, I guess.

There are many students who put their heart and mind into their work and don't make it to the top of their medical school. I was talking to a girl just today in that group, who is still a 3rd quartile student despite her best efforts, and is at a loss as to how to get out of that group. It's heartbreaking in a way, but I suppose it's just the nature of the beast.

It's tempting to assume that there is a linear relationship between effort input and grades output, but there are many things that complicate that. Some people are genetically better than others, some are chemically enhanced, some students excel at storing gigantic repositories of facts and others don't, and so on.
 
There are many students who put their heart and mind into their work and don't make it to the top of their medical school. I was talking to a girl just today in that group, who is still a 3rd quartile student despite her best efforts, and is at a loss as to how to get out of that group. It's heartbreaking in a way, but I suppose it's just the nature of the beast.

It's tempting to assume that there is a linear relationship between effort input and grades output, but there are many things that complicate that. Some people are genetically better than others, some are chemically enhanced, some students excel at storing gigantic repositories of facts and others don't, and so on.

That's all fine and dandy, but I'm talking about students who willingly state that they don't need or want to study hard because it interferes with them having a life in medical school. That's very different than people who bust their ass and sacrifice and still come up a little short.
 
There are many students who put their heart and mind into their work and don't make it to the top of their medical school. I was talking to a girl just today in that group, who is still a 3rd quartile student despite her best efforts, and is at a loss as to how to get out of that group. It's heartbreaking in a way, but I suppose it's just the nature of the beast.

It's tempting to assume that there is a linear relationship between effort input and grades output, but there are many things that complicate that. Some people are genetically better than others, some are chemically enhanced, some students excel at storing gigantic repositories of facts and others don't, and so on.
I don't think we're referring to people who try their hardest and still end up in 3rd quartile. We're talk about people who WILLINGLY don't push themselves and then make up rationalizations to justify their behavior, that aren't necessarily supported by the data.

"Oh, I don't need to be high in my class, I'm only going for ____________" -- to justify mediocre preclinical grades who then have trouble when it comes to Step 1 or end up changing their mind on specialty later.
"My professor just tests me on insane minutiae that's not even going to be on Step 1" or
"It's ok that I'm at the bottom of my class in the first 2 years (after not trying hard), I'll be an MS-3 superstar, I'll show them!"

You are correct, there will be people who study longer, better, have learned to study more efficiently, and some who take cognitive enhancement drugs to gain an an edge. No one said the relationship is completely linear in terms of effort/length of studying time and grades.
 
I'm gonna fail the next test, I've studied the pelvis and perineum at least 3 times and cant remember anything!
 
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